Academic Dishonesty

[fazd5]

So it is on your record?

Sorry I meant to say I may have. I am going to ask the honor council and get a definitive answer from them. As far as right now, I don't see it on my transcript, which gives me a little hope. I ordered the official one to make sure as well.

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[jl lin]

I really thought about doing that, but I don't know how lawyers would go about it, since whatever proof they have is against me, and clearly no one is taking my word for it. I event talked to the vice provost of the university, the one who overseas the honor council, and she wasn't very helpful either.

OK. First, did the only person next to you, from whom you were presumably cheating have the exact same test?
If so, how many of the answers on the test are patterned after the other person's?
Is there indeed a clear pattern comparatively.

Some will say, all you need is one to be the same, and that is absurd. What should be considered is a clear pattern.
Are there videos that demonstrate looking on to your neighbor's test?

Can the proctors state w/ perfect accuracy that indeed they saw you directly copy and mark the same answer from the other person's exam?

Why did you wait so long to get legal advice on this? Sure, it costs money and may lead to no where, but the right reputable council can do wonders too.

This may be a long shot, so take it for what you think it's worth. (Same to everyone else here. I won't be bothered if you disagree.)

Have a reputable academic specialist attorney review your information and try to obtain all discovery of pertinent information on the incident and follow-up.
At the very least, see what, if anything, you can do to try and have this removed from your record.

You really have to see someone that knows what they are doing here though, and who will also look at all your information and be honest with you about it. This alone will cost you some, but that is the way it goes.


https://www.thefire.org/fire-guides...fair-procedure-on-campus-full-text/#Contents2

Good luck.

 

[Cinclus]

OK. First, did the only person next to you, from whom you were presumably cheating have the exact same test?
If so, how many of the answers on the test are patterned after the other person's?
Is there indeed a clear pattern comparatively.

Some will say, all you need is one to be the same, and that is absurd. What should be considered is a clear pattern.

I proctored a ton of undergrad tests over about 2.5 years. If a proctor thought someone/several people was/were cheating, a certain professor had what I think was a good way to look into it further. He would compare the incorrect answers for similarity between the suspected cheaters. These were multiple choice-style tests, so seeing a very high percentage of identical incorrect answers between two testers suspected of cheating by multiple proctors was pretty damning.

 

[efle]

I proctored a ton of undergrad tests over about 2.5 years. If a proctor thought someone/several people was/were cheating, a certain professor had what I think was a good way to look into it further. He would compare the incorrect answers for similarity between the suspected cheaters. These were multiple choice-style tests, so seeing a very high percentage of identical incorrect answers between two testers suspected of cheating by multiple proctors was pretty damning.

But its not like incorrect answers are random, the hardest questions are likely to be missed by a lot of people. I might have the same 4 wrong as the guy next to me and that's not suspect if 80% of the class got those wrong

 

[gyngyn]

Here is what AMCAS says about reporting institutional actions:

"You must answer Yes to this question if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. You must answer Yes even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted from your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition." https://aamc-orange.global.ssl.fastly.net/production/media/filer_public/68/35/68356c03-a7da-48dc-96a2-49cefdb39bc9/amcas_instruction_manual.pdf

Italics mine.

 

[Cinclus]

But its not like incorrect answers are random, the hardest questions are likely to be missed by a lot of people. I might have the same 4 wrong as the guy next to me and that's not suspect if 80% of the class got those wrong

Discretion is used, too. Most of the people caught cheating weren't cheating because they knew their stuff, so they missed a lot. When you and the guy next to you got the identical wrong answer on 40 questions and you looked really suspicious during the exam, you're toast. If it were three identical wrong answers and an "iffy" suspicion by the proctor, we would be less likely to fry you.

 

[LizzyM]

I know there have been a lot of threads on SDN about Academic dishonesty, but I think that my case is a little different so i want some input.

I was accused of cheating on physiology exam during my senior year. I fought hard to prove my innocence, and believe me I am innocent, but the honor council took the word of the professor and the other proctors to prove me guilty. I was given an F for the course and I retook it the next semester and got an A (which to me only proves my point further that I am innocent). On the transcript, there is no way to find out if this was due to academic dishonesty, as there is no mark next to the F to indicate an act of academic dishonesty.

Obviously this looks bad since its a physiology class, a core class for medical school. I am in a masters program right now at the same university, so hoping to do well in that program to prove my credibility. My question to you guys should I still disclose this to the adcoms when I apply? I have been in a dilemma since no matter what I say to the adcoms, they still won't believe my story, and will think I cheated. Please guys any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

You have an IA for cheating. If you disclose this on your application, as you are obligated to do, you may not be offered an interview anywhere but you will know that you were honest when you applied. If you do not disclose it on your application, you may get an interview but you will know that you are dishonest.

Are you honest or dishonest?

Frankly, either way it seems that your citizenship, visa and loan issues are going to keep you out of medical school anyway.

 

[fazd5]

OK. First, did the only person next to you, from whom you were presumably cheating have the exact same test?
If so, how many of the answers on the test are patterned after the other person's?
Is there indeed a clear pattern comparatively.

Some will say, all you need is one to be the same, and that is absurd. What should be considered is a clear pattern.
Are there videos that demonstrate looking on to your neighbor's test?

Can the proctors state w/ perfect accuracy that indeed they saw you directly copy and mark the same answer from the other person's exam?

Why did you wait so long to get legal advice on this? Sure, it costs money and may lead to no where, but the right reputable council can do wonders too.

This may be a long shot, so take it for what you think it's worth. (Same to everyone else here. I won't be bothered if you disagree.)

Have a reputable academic specialist attorney review your information and try to obtain all discovery of pertinent information on the incident and follow-up.
At the very least, see what, if anything, you can do to try and have this removed from your record.

You really have to see someone that knows what they are doing here though, and who will also look at all your information and be honest with you about it. This alone will cost you some, but that is the way it goes.


https://www.thefire.org/fire-guides...fair-procedure-on-campus-full-text/#Contents2

Good luck.

From what the professor told me, yes he had the same exact test. Usually they have different versions of the test (same questions, just scrambled in order), but for some reason, we both had the same form of the exam. The pattern was very similar to his test, but he got a higher grade than me on the test. There are no videos/photographs to show that I cheated, the only evidence is the proctors and the statistical analysis.

The proctors made their statements, but to me they didn't coincide with each other that well. I strongly feel that the other proctor made some bogus claims to further strengthen their accuracy, but I for sure can tell they weren't accurate.

The other thing that was against me was that my professor is in the honor council himself. Therefore almost none of his cases are argued against, in fact I heard the director of the honor council praising him all the time. Sure he denied any kind of leniency shown towards the fact that this was one of his case, but I am almost certain this played a big role.

I will try to look at the link you provided. I don't know if I am too late for this, but if I have any chance of rectifying this, then I am all for it. I have spent tons of money on immigration lawyers, might as well try one of these as well.

 

[fazd5]

You have an IA for cheating. If you disclose this on your application, as you are obligated to do, you may not be offered an interview anywhere but you will know that you were honest when you applied. If you do not disclose it on your application, you may get an interview but you will know that you are dishonest.

Are you honest or dishonest?

Frankly, either way it seems that your citizenship, visa and loan issues are going to keep you out of medical school anyway.

Sure the citizenship issue is a huge problem for me right now, but that shouldn't stop me to pursue medicine. I am capable of being a physician, so no matter what the cost is, I am still gonna purse it. As far as IA goes, I don't want to be penalized for something I didn't do. I am already being penalized for something I have no control over ( immigration keeping my chances of getting into medical school), so there is no way in hell I am going to be penalized for the mistake I didn't commit.

 

[jl lin]

Here is what AMCAS says about reporting institutional actions:

"You must answer Yes to this question if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. You must answer Yes even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted from your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition." https://aamc-orange.global.ssl.fastly.net/production/media/filer_public/68/35/68356c03-a7da-48dc-96a2-49cefdb39bc9/amcas_instruction_manual.pdf

Italics mine.

That's fine, but if it one is exonerated from a violation, in that it cannot be said to be true, one would not be violating this, b/c the accusation was false and unjust in the first place.

If that TRULY is the case here, the OP should see the right lawyer, be straightforward, hope s/he is knowledgeable and hope for the best. Either way, I should think it may take a while to be resolved one way or another.

In the meantime, the OP should do as what has been suggested, and get involved in some serious volunteer work and get strong clinical exposure. This is helpful too, since this type of legal pursuit is bound to be somewhat costly in most cases.

 

[efle]

This is such a bizarre approach from AAMC. Do they not recognize the point of expunging something? Saying you must still report the thing the school decided shouldn't be reported is just stupid. Only serves to punish the wrongly accused

 

[fazd5]

@gyngyn do you know if AACOMAS has the same guidelines on IA reporting?

 

[gyngyn]

@gyngyn do you know if AACOMAS has the same guidelines on IA reporting?

I do not.

 

[gyngyn]

This is such a bizarre approach from AAMC. Do they not recognize the point of expunging something? Saying you must still report the thing the school decided shouldn't be reported is just stupid. Only serves to punish the wrongly accused

If one is exonerated, there is no IA. If found guilty (though remediated), the IA must be reported.

 

[fazd5]

Here is the excerpt I found on AACOMAS website:

Indicate if you have ever been disciplined for academic performance (e.g. academic probation, dismissal, suspension, disqualification, etc.) by any college or school? Or if you have ever been disciplined for student conduct violations (e.g. academic probation, dismissal, suspension, disqualification, etc.) by any college or school? If so, provide an explanation.

So if not on my record, I guess I don't have to report it?

 

[jl lin]

Two lawyers, two somewhat different opinions.

http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/suing-university-for-false-accusation-of-cheating--1141247.html


Our whole system is based on innocent until proven guilty. Private schools just like employers can say that can bypass that; but the reason they often get away with not having to fully follow that is that they have more money and power than most students/employees.

Some of the push for legal reforms are interesting to me, b/c people say everyone is sue happy. LOL. Pursuing legal action is entirely expensive for most people. It's incredibly exhausting and stressful to the point of putting some folks in the hospital. Finally, legal processes are often quite lengthy. It can be torment for folks waiting to fully carry on with their lives while waiting to hopefully win--while also not going broke. This is why these things often go along w/o fair remedy and resolution.

And really being completely innocent and knowing that such false accusations can permanently impair your ability to move forward is the ONLY reason to pay to obtain the right, smart, motivated, experienced, and committed attorney. Finding that alone may indeed be challenging enough.

If you are sure (by sure I mean such that you know you aren't talking yourself into believing you are sure) that you are truly innocent of academic dishonesty and that their evidence and actions against you are unjust--and if you want to be able to honestly answer questions for AMCAS that should not in anyway incriminate you for something which you have not done, then you need the right lawyer, and it is going to be COSTLY, STRESSFUL, and TIME-CONSUMING.

It would indeed seem that Lizzy's statement is the biggest obstacle right now; but it is true that you have to follow the academic policy at the particular institution according to their timetable for appeal. If you miss a step or deadline, that makes any further action you might take even harder.

There is absolutely no reason to kill someone's aspirations and hard work or even livelihood simply b/c of false allegations and some arbitrary requirement in a form. No school or system should have the right to violate people's rights in this respect.

I would caution schools, proctors, TAs, professors, etc to be very careful about charges against someone that can ruin their academic and professional career. If these are untrue and unjust, indeed, they should have to deal with even civil actions, if necessary.

Separate the students with enough space or split the classes up and use different tests.

 

[Lawpy]

This is such a bizarre approach from AAMC. Do they not recognize the point of expunging something? Saying you must still report the thing the school decided shouldn't be reported is just stupid. Only serves to punish the wrongly accused

If one is exonerated, there is no IA. If found guilty (though remediated), the IA must be reported.

What is the difference between expunging and exonerating?

 

[asdf123g]

 

[fazd5]

Two lawyers, two somewhat different opinions.

http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/suing-university-for-false-accusation-of-cheating--1141247.html


Our whole system is based on innocent until proven guilty. Now private schools just like employers can say that can bypass that; but the reason they often get away with not having to fully follow that is that they have more money and power than most students/employees.

Some of the push for legal reforms are interesting to me, b/c people say everyone is sue happy. LOL. Pursuing legal action is entirely expensive for most people. It's incredibly exhausting and stressful to the point of putting some folks in the hospital. Final legal processes are often quite lengthy. It can be torment waiting to fully carry on with one's life while waiting to hopefully win--while also not going broke. This is why these things often go along w/o fair remedy and resolution.

And really being completely innocent and knowing that such false accusations can permanently impair your ability to move forward it is the ONLY reason to obtain the right, smart, motivated, experienced, and committed attorney. Finding that alone may indeed be challenging enough.

If you are sure (by sure I mean such that you know you aren't talking yourself into believing you are sure) that you are truly innocent of academic dishonesty and that their evidence and actions against you are unjust--and if you want to be able to honestly answer questions for AMCAS that should not in anyway incriminate you for something which you have not done, then you need the right lawyer, and it is going to be COSTLY, STRESSFUL, and TIME-CONSUMING.

It would indeed seem that Lizzy's statement is the biggest obstacle right now; but it is true that you have to follow the academic policy at the particular institution according to their timetable for appeal. If you miss a step, that makes any further action may take even harder.

There is an absolute reason why there are indeed legal remedies for false accusations, etc. Sure, they can vary my state, but I absolutely trust some highly respected lawyers on certain issues of expungement.

I do tire of the statements or implications that they cannot stand. There is absolutely no reason to kill someone's aspirations and handwork or even livelihood simply b/c of false allegations. No school or system should have the right to violate people's rights in this respect. There are plenty of people with serious issues that cannot be expunged or files closed or such.

I would caution schools, proctors, TAs, professors, etc to be very careful about charges against someone that can ruin their academic and professional career. If they aren't untrue and unjust, indeed, they should have to deal with even civil actions, if necessary.

For God's sake. Separate the students with enough space or split the classes up and use different tests.

I agree that this will be costly and may take a lot of time to get resolved, which is why I am really hoping that this is doesn't show up on my record, or it isn't released to the schools I apply to. But if I need to do so, I will most definitely look into getting a lawyer. I appealed the sanctions through the honor council, but the director would not take a single word of my argument. I even talked to the vice provost of the university, who oversees the entire honor council, and she would not listen either. I tried talking to the dean of my college, department head, and every other possible person of authority, but no one seemed to help me. I guess no one really cares what the students say, they all side with the professor.

 

[efle]

If found guilty (though remediated), the IA must be reported.

And this strikes me as very wrong because it is such a source of potential bias. If I'm wrongly convicted of a crime and then immediately exonerated I shouldn't have to tell potential employers that any of it ever happened. Saying they must tell the adcoms "even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted from your official transcripts" unfairly blocks the process of removing a wrongly placed stain from their record.

 

[jl lin]

This is such a bizarre approach from AAMC. Do they not recognize the point of expunging something? Saying you must still report the thing the school decided shouldn't be reported is just stupid. Only serves to punish the wrongly accused

But it's not completely true if we are talking about legal expunging of say an arrest record. Of course this does not apply to the school and the student. I am talking about things like arrest records that don't go anywhere. Convictions are a different story. And what can or cannot be done totally depends on the state and other factors. Bottom line, if there is a true expunging on a record--depending upon what it is, and if it has been thoroughly processed correctly, people and a judge or judges have determined that it can be sealed. No one has the right to violate that determination other than say the Feds for valid reasons. You are allowed to say "No" when asked about that particular thing expunged, depending upon what it is. It's the whole point of the expunging, not to unfairly jeopardize someone's ability to say get a job or go to graduate school by an unfair bias about it. If he unfair bias wasn't something that has and can happen, there would be NO need for the process in the first place. Again, convictions are different.
So if a person that marches in a rally is unfairly arrested with the clowns that got out of control, it doesn't mean that that person necessarily should suffer b/c of the arrest record. Sigh.

When a judge determines that you may legally answer "NO," for the specific and limited expunging, that is exactly what it means. It does not mean the person is lying.

It's arbitrary for a system to intimate that a person should violate this right, if it has been established under the right requirements. Furthermore, people can't just do this more than once, and even the one time request may not be granted b/c of the specifics of it. It depends upon a number of things as to whether a judge would allow it.

But once more, if a judge says you may answer "No," you are not lying or wrong in doing so. You are following a right granted to you by way of appropriate legal action.

I know my one lawyer friend would get a hoot out of reading this nonsense that all expungements do not count no matter what. I think that's why I get fired up when I read them, b/c I know my buddy knows precisely what he is doing, and he is a far ways from what one would consider as a shister type of lawyer. He is one that is not all about the money.

 

[Lawpy]

And this strikes me as very wrong because it is such a source of potential bias. If I'm wrongly convicted of a crime and then immediately exonerated I shouldn't have to tell potential employers that any of it ever happened. Saying they must tell the adcoms "even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted from your official transcripts" unfairly blocks the process of removing a wrongly placed stain from their record.

Medical school admissions is a negative process. Adcoms are looking for any possible flaw in your app to reject you, so thus, they are operating on "guilty until proven innocent".

And yet admissions ironically despises perfectionist applicants....

 

[fazd5]

Medical school admissions is a negative process. Adcoms are looking for any possible flaw in your app to reject you, so thus, they are operating on "guilty until proven innocent".

And yet admissions ironically despises perfectionist applicants....

I completely agree with you. They want to weed out possible candidates in any ways they can find. If i were to talk about my IA, they will definitely reject me, regardless of whether I was wrongly convicted or not.

 

[jl lin]

I agree that this will be costly and may take a lot of time to get resolved, which is why I am really hoping that this is doesn't show up on my record, or it isn't released to the schools I apply to. But if I need to do so, I will most definitely look into getting a lawyer. I appealed the sanctions through the honor council, but the director would not take a single word of my argument. I even talked to the vice provost of the university, who overrsees the entire honor council, and she would not listen either. I tried talking to the dean of my college, department head, and every other possible person of authority, but no one seemed to help me. I guess no one really cares what the students say, they all side with the professor.

Sadly, if no one is willing to truly be helpful on the inside, then you have to go outside for help, and it's, again, expensive and risky, so you had better make sure you followed what they have written in their handbooks and stuff re: appeals and so forth, to the letter. You have to be highly vigilant about this kind of thing, and you sure as hell better be honest about this whole mess.

When you see that you are hitting a wall after following what is stipulated in the handbook, you have to get the right kind of outside counsel. The problem with most of these situations is usually:

1. The person accused isn't completely forthcoming about the incident and so forth

or

2. Like marriages that start to go down the toilet and people wait too long to get the right kind of help, people in these situations don't follow the system in place to the letter (in-house) and/or they wait too long to get the right kind of legal counsel.

There are certain things where if you wait too long, you are screwed and there is no going back.

 

[esob]

Seems you should have invoked some legal counsel earlier. What kind of class was this that had 4 proctors for a test btw? I had like 2 at both my LSATS and the results of those tests are absolutely critical to your career. What is the direct evidence you were cheating? They say they saw you look at someone else's paper?

 

[aalamruad]

What is the difference between expunging and exonerating?

Expunging = erasing evidence of an incident from a record, regardless of innocence or guilt
Exonerating = entirely absolving of guilt /suspicion of guilt

 

[jl lin]

Expunging = erasing evidence of an incident from a record, regardless of innocence or guilt
Exonerating = entirely absolving of guilt /suspicion of guilt

If there is indeed a record, for example, in the situation I described above where the person was arrested during a protest rally, and he was scooped in by the police with a bunch of people that were not peacefully assembling during the rally, after the air is cleared, there will still be an arrest record attached to that poor person. Yes, in such a case, it still may be possible and worth expunging.

There are plenty of situations where exoneration will still be met with unfair discrimination by others. Furthermore, there will still be a record. A conviction is different and expunging is a very, very limited thing and varies by state. In the OP's case, I don't know how a lawyer would go about getting the school to change the record by a judge if they could prove, well after the fact, that the OP was innocent. Truth is, OP has already complied with the action at the school, and unless somehow OP could prove extreme duress or something, no. It probably will not go away.

Re: information on legal expunging something:
http://www.clearupmyrecord.com/reasons-for-expunging-dismissals-and-not-guilty-findings.php

Once a judge has looked through all the person's records, determined that situation in question meets all the criteria, and a certain about of time has elapsed, [he or she will order that the dismissal or not guilty verdict will be removed from the record (in certain states, the records may be sealed instead). Once the dismissal or verdict is expunged, it will be gone from the record and you will never need to mention it again. This means the dismissal or verdict will not be an impediment to you on any future job or loan applications, or any other situation where someone might have occasion to examine your standing in the public record.]

Of course this does not apply if there is some federal investigation on you or if you are applying for a professional license and the criminal record is a conviction record. There are specifics and particulars deep within the laws, and that's why you need a expert lawyer for something like this.

NOTE: This isn't a get-off-easy card. Whether this can even be done depends on the state and a number of other things.

 

[efle]

Lol, I'd rather warn users to do their own research than try and give mods censorship powers over what they think is bad advice

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

A university disciplinary process is not a legal process and students who are accused of violations are usually not subject to the same protections. It's up to the university, not a judge or a lawyer, to decide how the process is handled. It's not like you could take legal steps to have your record expunged since this isn't something that's on your criminal record--it's on your academic record.

I'm not sure if this happens at other institutions but the school where I completed my postbacc actually sent out dean's letters along with our committee letters. The dean's letter clearly stated whether you had any IAs during your time in school and, if so, described them.

My 2 cents: if you want to be a doctor so much so that you're willing to take a chance knowing that it may not work out, fess up. Be honest and be prepared to demonstrate that you understand what you did wrong and have taken steps to change.

 

[jl lin]

There really should be some mechanism on this site by which the mods can prevent users from talking out of their a**.

So so much bad advice from the above poster, based purely on theory without any relevant or practical experience.

To what exactly are you referring SouthernS? And I will be sure to share this with a highly respected and reputable attorney of 30 years and his colleagues. He will get a smile out of it, as he did when a nurse that was in law school tried to say the same thing about this information. She failed the bar. I am sorry for that, but she was such a smart azz and had people so convinced about crap. Yes, I realize a lot of people fail the bar and go on to pass it. Thank you in advance. Point is, AS I SAID, It all depends on the state and the specifics. If a judge has made this so, it is so, and a person is perfectly legal to answer "No." I have seen a person's forms and contracts at the final rendering. No, it's not BS. It's not bad advise. It is dependent upon things, and I have shared that repeatedly. Please read.

It's nice you can make such comments and attacks while anonymous. Sigh. (Yours is the kind of hate to which I was referring in another thread.)

Show me where I am necessarily wrong here Surg. Please don't make me regret taking you off ignore. Nonetheless, go ahead and proceed to show. But can you do so w/o being a @!%$; b/c that would be outstanding.

Also, how decent of you for essentially telling very respectable lawyers that they are full of sh!$. Thanks for telling me I didn't read what I read. Thanks for presuming to know the law in all states. And I NEVER SAID or implied that I did.

Mostly, thank you for disagreeing intelligently.

 

[jl lin]

A university disciplinary process is not a legal process and students who are accused of violations are usually not subject to the same protections. It's up to the university, not a judge or a lawyer, to decide how the process is handled. It's not like you could take legal steps to have your record expunged since this isn't something that's on your criminal record--it's on your academic record.

I'm not sure if this happens at other institutions but the school where I completed my postbacc actually sent out dean'sletters along with our committee letters. The dean's letter clearly stated whether you had any IAs during your time in school and, if so, described them.

My 2 cents: if you want to be a doctor so much so that you're willing to take a chance knowing that it may not work out, fess up. Be honest and be prepared to demonstrate that you understand what you did wrong and have taken steps to change.

No. We are confusing what we are talking about here. Various issues are getting intertwined.

And how things are approached can be different depending upon if the school is public or private.

The expungement issue has to do with legal matters that a judge has determined can be sealed and to which the person can legally say or write, "NO" to say an arrest for example. Once people are biased, they are biased. If it is something that can help them not give fair value to a person's application and it can be expunged and all the standards are met, it should be. If a person is arrested for peacefully marching in some protest--and don't make me LOL by suggesting that it doesn't happen, if they can legally meet the requirements/standards for the expungement, and that is what they want to do, why shouldn't they? Do you actually think people aren't easily biased? It's why people should delete or deactivate their FB accounts, even if there is innocent stuff on there. If you have exercised your 1st Amendment rights about a particular political issue and someone doesn't agree, don't tell me all people are beyond biased conclusions/decisions about others.


As far as what can be done on the inside, depending upon whether it is a public or private school has been repeatedly deferred by me to a reputable attorney that specializes in education law.

If I were innocent, hell no. I would not say, "Oh what a shame for poor ole me. I guess I will have to give up my dream of medical school or graduate school."

That's ridiculous advice to me if the person is truly innocent.

Of course I DO realize that indeed that may be a big IF. I am giving the poster the benefit of the doubt.

 

[LizzyM]

Breaking a school rule and being disciplined by the school has nothing to do with civil or criminal law. Some of the terms used may sound similar but the school makes the rules, the school assembles the review body, the school controls the appeals process. There is nothing a lawyer can add to the proceedings other than an expense.

OP says that he intends to omit from his application the fact that he was disciplined for an infraction. That proves that he is dishonest although he asserts, despite four witnesses, that he is not a cheater.

 

[jl lin]

Breaking a school rule and being disciplined by the school has nothing to do with civil or criminal law. Some of the terms used may sound similar but the school makes the rules, the school assembles the review body, the school controls the appeals process. There is nothing a lawyer can add to the proceedings other than an expense.

OP says that he intends to omit from his application the fact that he was disciplined for an infraction That proves that he is dishonest although he asserts, despite four witnesses, that he is not a cheater.

I am not necessarily sure if he is dishonest. He should seek the right counsel if he is innocent. The right lawyer may make them drop this from his record entirely. If he is NOT guilty of cheating, why should he have any implication or hint that he may have been? That is senseless IF HE IS INNOCENT.

IMHO, the student should have sought guidance and moved on this faster, reviewing everything that is in the handbook and what not.

Bystanders, as we now well know, can be easily influenced and are not always accurate.

Sigh.

That is why I said we are confusing things here. See above.
No. In an example above I showed where 2 lawyers took different approaches.

What I was saying is that it is best for the student to follow all the appeal processes from within (the school) to the letter.
The right lawyer may well be able to give him guidance, and he indeed may be able to file a civil suit.

It's a lot of mays and ifs. That's why he needs to see an expert attorney in this area.

Again, regardless of private or public, I don't encourage people to just sit back and say, "Too bad for me. I'm screwed," IF they are completely innocent.

Even private entities are NOT utter gods unto themselves that can do whatever they want all the time.

Can he win a suit against the school? Hell if I know. I depends. But it can and has been done.

It takes a lot to fight a grave injustice. Most people don't have the fight for it, or their case is too weak to make it worth it, or they are just plain ole guilty.

 

[fazd5]

Seems you should have invoked some legal counsel earlier. What kind of class was this that had 4 proctors for a test btw? I had like 2 at both my LSATS and the results of those tests are absolutely critical to your career. What is the direct evidence you were cheating? They say they saw you look at someone else's paper?

This was an undergrad class. And yes there were some witnesses that claim they saw me look at someone else's paper. And some statistical analysis that shows that I cheated

 

[jl lin]

This was a physiology class (undergrad). And yes there were 4 witnesses that claim they saw me look at someone else's paper. And some statistical analysis that shows a 53% chance that I cheated

I often find statistical information helpful, but this totally seems like some BS by the school. Seriously, I don't know when they did their "investigation" or when they did the analysis, but I am seriously wondering if you have waited too long.
Did you say if you went through a formal appeal process?


Also, if there were so many witnesses to your dishonest act, why didn't they stop you during the test? Something seems wrong here.

 

[jl lin]

Also @fazd5 , I wouldn't continue to talk about this openly on here. You need to seek sound, specialized counsel.

 

[LizzyM]

@jl lin You are confusing school rules with educational law. People can hire lawyers with expertise in educational law and they can win a civil suit if their rights under state or federal law have been violated. FERPA is an example of a federal law. However, school rules are rules, not laws. If your school has a rule against X and you break the rule, the school will have a procedure for examining the situation and applying a punishment if you are found to have broken the rule even if the rule is something completely legal like dancing. This is why there is so much grief for students accused of sexual assault against a fellow student. The rules for criminal proceedings don't apply, only school rules which are substantially different and less favorable for the accused. Lawyers are not able to fight every "grave injustice"and advising someone to get a lawyer is just telling them to throw good money after bad.

Also note that the link you provided had an educational lawyer who makes a living filing lawsuits advising the question writer to get a lawyer. Bias much?

 

[jl lin]

@jl lin You are confusing school rules with educational law. People can hire lawyers with expertise in educational law and they can win a civil suit if their rights under state or federal law have been violated. FERPA is an example of a federal law. However, school rules are rules, not laws. If your school has a rule against X and you break the rule, the school will have a procedure for examining the situation and applying a punishment if you are found to have broken the rule even if the rule is something completely legal like dancing. This is why there is so much grief for students accused of sexual assault against a fellow student. The rules for criminal proceedings don't apply, only school rules which are substantially different and less favorable for the accused. Lawyers are not able to fight every "grave injustice"and advising someone to get a lawyer is just telling them to throw good money after bad.

Understood. I never said otherwise. Yes his civil rights may well have been violated, and he indeed may be able to win--but it sooooooo depends on all the specifics.

Anyway:

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jan/23/local/me-dental23

@jl lin The rules for criminal proceedings don't apply, only school rules which are substantially different and less favorable for the accused. Lawyers are not able to fight every "grave injustice"and advising someone to get a lawyer is just telling them to throw good money after bad.

Again, the first part is understood, which is why I said the person has to know the inside (school's) processes and timelines.

To the latter part in bold: That would depend upon a few things. One, namely, is if the person is actually innocent or guilty. Did the school follow it's own inside procedures? Are those procedures indeed fundamentally fair?

Telling someone yea or nay on this w/o knowing all the details is, in my view, dealing with something sight unseen, and in itself is unfair.

Of course the OP asked for input; but none of us can make absolute determinations.
And depending upon the specifics, no. I don't believe in going down w/o a fight when it is the right thing to do. Now, is it the right thing for this person to do? Depends upon his financial situation and the specifics of his case.

And again, I think the person should probably stop discussing it openly w/ specifics and such.

 

[fazd5]

I think this is getting way out of hand. I have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done. I appreciate all yours input in this matter! Thanks a lot

 

[candbgirl]

When did this all happen? After rereading your original post it seems like it was awhile ago. If you are in a grad program and this happened in undergrad why on earth did you wait so long to do something? It seems like you just went along with what was happening even to the point of doing the "remediation " thing to get the asterisk off of your transcript. Are you just now realizing that this whole mess will probably impact your med school application process? There are so many questions that have no answers that I don't think most of the information you've gotten is really helpful. It will be interesting to see what happens when you try to get this reversed.

 

[FutureOncologist]

The Navy should fix you right up OP.

 

[123456123456]

That is a difficult situation, idk what I would do. However, keep in mind if you do not disclose it and they find out, it can screw you BIG TIME

 

[jl lin]

When did this all happen? After rereading your original post it seems like it was awhile ago. If you are in a grad program and this happened in undergrad why on earth did you wait so long to do something? It seems like you just went along with what was happening even to the point of doing the "remediation " thing to get the asterisk off of your transcript. Are you just now realizing that this whole mess will probably impact your med school application process? There are so many questions that have no answers that I don't think most of the information you've gotten is really helpful. It will be interesting to see what happens when you try to get this reversed.

I mean, it is difficult to argue with your points. So many questions. But I will give the person the benefit of the doubt in hopes that s/he is able to find a workable solution or counsel for his/her situation. If the person is in need of some justice, I hope s/he finds it. So, in that event, I stay w/ my position that it is best for him/her to stop discussing it here. It doesn't seem like it's in his/her best interest regardless of the outcome and so forth. People forget not to be too specific online.

I know full well there are underdogs that don't get fair shakes out there.

OTOH, I also know full well there are those that just think they weren't given a fair shake. and there are those that take advantage and are trying to get over. But you have to be careful w/ that--and especially about being too cynical. We forget the kind of people we are supposed to be and why we have developed approaches to freedom the way that we have. OTOH, true cheaters are BS and truly are a pita.

Re your question about the time delay: Sometimes people move from term to term and just try to get through the situation and don't really think things through when they are happening--or they don't get the right counsel soon enough. I believe OP stated being in the same school from UG to GS. Quarter systems for example, put in a lot of material and move fast. With certain terms there are little to no downtimes.

I don't know all and things seem sketchy and out of balance all the way around. I don't think OP is a troll either.

I think OP is someone that kept going in a sort of a fearful, passive-aggressive manner. At critical points in time, lack of sound counsel and not acting on it can really harm you.

Sad thing is, if indeed he was overwhelmed w/ anxiety during the exam, ultimately he would have been better off taking the F for the test and talking to advisors and students services and getting some help. That would have been a somewhat easier situation with which to deal--given any counseling or tx for anxiety was actual beneficial. But he wouldn't be facing an IA.
That all is a woulda, shoulda, coulda though, and the person has to deal with the present realities before him/her.

Moderating fight or flight on less acute levels can be tricky w/ certain conditions.

Truly, I feel terribly for the person if all that s/he shares is true. Stupid crap like this does happen from time to time, and it sucks.

I've always been pretty paranoid about looking around during exams.

 

[Goro]

That's why I use the "ignore" function on her, colleague.

There really should be some mechanism on this site by which the mods can prevent users from talking out of their a**.

So so much bad advice from the above poster, based purely on theory without any relevant or practical experience.

 

[jl lin]

Too bad the ignore fx doesn't include preventing the unhelpful, negative comments to the person/s to which you seek to ignore.

Southern isn't fair in what he has stated or he misunderstood, but he has been on the malicious side w/ others in the past.

It's not necessarily the best advice for this OP to cut his/her loses. I see that response so often here, but it can be a bit whimsical/fickle how such advice is given or to whom it is given. ??? If a person is truly innocent and will have to report an IA, why should he/she not take steps to try and correct the situation? SMH

The other issue, which somehow came up in here and that has come up on SDN a number of times, w/ totally incorrect responses, is that expungement isn't really a real thing and can't be used upon application. This is untrue. It truly depends. Don't take my word. Seek out experienced legal counsel and research on it. Don't just listen to one lawyer either. I haven't on the issue, but in terms of the specifics, the main lawyer I have referenced is supported by his legal colleagues and apparently a judge.

Yes, I take some umbrage at the implication that my highly knowledgeable and respected attorney friend of many decades and his colleagues and a judge as well are basically being told through my interaction here that they are full of crap. I have also posted other information on it. Surly Southern Surgeon is just throwing a bomb and running away. And now, once more, you have added to such behavior.

Again, I stand by the expungement issue, even as unrelated as it is--but people have taken it to be r/t the school situation. As an aside, it was brought in, and people are often so quick to say on SDN that there is no such thing legally, or at least in functionality it doesn't work or you are a liar. This is not true, and indeed, they are completely wrong. They proceed to tell people that a person cannot assert what a completed expungement says that you can legally assert. Again, they are wrong, and need to research this further, keeping in mind the governing states and the specifics.

With regard to negative polarizing attitudes, this is what I am talking about.
Disagree respectfully. It is understood that it may be a bit more difficult for some post-pubescent pre-meds to do this, but experienced, professional adults that are advisors not caring to do this? It blows my mind. But it indeed reflects the power of personal bias.

Re: this thread, injustices do occur, and if this person was treated wrongly, hopefully he or she will find the right path.

I believe you are one of the person's whose advice was basically, "Too bad. Give up your aspirations." I am wondering if this is what you would advise for a loved one IF he or she was truly innocent and being given a scarlet letter w/o cause?


About the "in-house" issue at the school, yes, in some cases, lawyers can influence schools to correct or find a resolution to the situation from the inside. We indeed have processes that step outside of inside administrative operations. Are they difficult to win? Yes. I NEVER said otherwise. Given the fact that the person is caught in such a fix, he/she may have to do what he/she may have to do. Whether he can afford to do so or he/she is able to find the right attorney or there is too much that is not in his favor for him to pursue this legally after all the inside processes are completed is something only s/he and her/his attorney can decide. We can't make this decision. We aren't privy to the details, and indeed, as I have shared with the OP, enough of the matter has already been shared online.

I do not believe in rewarding cheaters.

I also do not believe in punishing innocent people. Wow! How insane is that?

I am not one to cower in fear over the "Lords of Institutions and Organizations." I believe in being respectful of/to them, but I don't believe people should just play doormats in wrongful situations either.

Sir, if you have bias toward me, which clearly you do, be decent and keep it to yourself.

If you have taken the initiative to put me on ignore, I wonder then how you could take the initiative and time to call me out in a negative way openly? Exactly what is the point in doing so if you have already placed me on ignore? It doesn't make sense, except to help poison and polarize others on the board against me.

BTW, I asked the person (SS) to whom you responded to point out where I am wrong. Of course, he threw his bomb and ran off w/o stating clearly why he believes what he has said.

Lizzy, OTOH, kindly and respectfully replied w/ her perspective, and I do not entirely disagree with her. There are separate issues that have been twisted in here, and I have tried to separate them out, as I have, again above.

Of course school administrators don't want students to go outside the dominion of the system. And if things can be resolved fairly in house, so much the better for everyone. There is no question that one must surely follow the system in place and not miss a beat in the academic administrative policies and the deadlines. I have said that repeatedly to the OP.

Martin Luther King, Jr has rightly stated, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

They preach in schools and government about social justice. Striving to do justly for all people should be a priority for us all, regardless of who we are, what we do for a living, or where we work or live or school.

Finally, sad thing about SSurg is that I had just taken him off ignore, b/c no one is perfect, people misunderstand each other often online, and sometimes a rest is all that is needed, and eventually you find that even when people hide behind anonymity they may eventually show themselves to be human. Also, it is not in my nature to hold grudges. I am careful about people; but I don't hold judges.

But If he wants to be a surly sort of fellow and carry on that way, that's fine. He can choose to use the ignore feature as well, as you also have chosen to use the selectively surly approach with me.

Since, however, you have put me on ignore, do us both a favor and keep such comments within the limits of pm-ing w/ others. You and SS or others can talks amongst yourselves against in pm-mode. There is no need to openly comment about someone whom you have chosen to put on ignore.

 

[candbgirl]

See the thing is how are you so sure OP is innocent? If this happened to me(and you I'm pretty sure) I would never have let it get this far. I would have appealed and done everything to deal with the issue at the time. I wouldn't have caved and taken the remediation so the asterisk was removed from my transcript. Now it is at least several months later and maybe more. Perhaps some of the witnesses are no longer at the school. What then? It just seems so convoluted to me that all of a sudden OP is frantic to get this squared away. Maybe s/he is innocent but maybe not. None of us know because we weren't there.

 

[LizzyM]

Here is the excerpt I found on AACOMAS website:

Indicate if you have ever been disciplined for academic performance (e.g. academic probation, dismissal, suspension, disqualification, etc.) by any college or school? Or if you have ever been disciplined for student conduct violations (e.g. academic probation, dismissal, suspension, disqualification, etc.) by any college or school? If so, provide an explanation.

So if not on my record, I guess I don't have to report it?

I am no expert on AACOMAS and @Goro should weigh in but to the question:
have you ever been disciplined for student conduct violations by any college or school? if so, provide an explanation seems to be the place to say that you were disciplined for alleged cheating and provide the explanation in your own words. See if the adcoms believe what the honor board and other did not.

If you are going with the "if it is not on my record, I guess I don't have to report it" argument, you are proving that when it is in your best interest, you are prepared to hide the facts.

 

[Psai]

I really don't understand how jl lin is able to write so much and yet say so little.

 

[jl lin]

See the thing is how are you so sure OP is innocent? If this happened to me(and you I'm pretty sure) I would never have let it get this far. I would have appealed and done everything to deal with the issue at the time. I wouldn't have caved and taken the remediation so the asterisk was removed from my transcript. Now it is at least several months later and maybe more. Perhaps some of the witnesses are no longer at the school. What then? It just seems so convoluted to me that all of a sudden OP is frantic to get this squared away. Maybe s/he is innocent but maybe not. None of us know because we weren't there.

I agree with you in terms of the approach there, but as they say, "Hindsight is 20/20."

Yes, I have said we don't know. I have also said I give him/her the benefit of the doubt. I don't know exactly about the timeline. I am just standing up for a fairness, something that seems like it's so nebulous when it really doesn't have to be, but just like freedom, it takes vigilance.

I hope the best for this person. But what I do know is that he/she should not post anymore details.

 

[jl lin]

I really don't understand how jl lin is able to write so much and yet say so little.

tl;dr: In summary:

1.OP should go through inside system and follow all the policy to the letter.
2.If s/he thinks he is being bullied, treated unfairly, set-up, whatever, and s/he knows this to be true, it may be worth it to seek out a reputable edu lawyer. (Discussed the expense, time, stress, etc)
3.Expungement came up as a separate matter, and I have set that out. It's not a fantasy legal action, but it's very dependent upon many things. There is nothing for which a judge can give an expungement in this case, for there is not criminal issue at hand.
4.The person may have civil remedy, depending upon the specifics--needs to see lawyer. Also refer to other case posted above.
5.Certain people throw bombs and run off. It's a sad but chronic problem on many sites, not just SDN.
6.People can feel free to ignore, but if they are going to ignore, ignore all the way, and stop commenting openly in the negative about others.

7/Finally, here's a good rule to live by. If you can't say anything respectfully productive, it shows wisdom, honor, and professionalism to say nothing at all. But that doesn't work if the intent is to polarize and create toxicity against someone.