Addressing PE

[TXKnight]

As a follow-up to the pilot, NBOME will be hosting a team of public health officials from Johns Hopkins University on July 11.
This group will provide further review of the exam and our approach to enhanced safety.

COMLEX USA Level 2-PE — NBOME

www.nbome.org

Who are the Hopkins officials? How much are they being paid to sign off on this s$$$show?

Exactly, by limiting their (JHU) scope to only assess procedures at their facilities they negate the very basic fact that the virus is ubiquitous, travel is required, and some states and hospitals have travel restrictions already. This is nothing but smoke and mirrors and for them to wash their hands by saying we did all we had to do.

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[zNoodlez]

Exactly, by limiting their (JHU) scope to only assess procedures at their facilities they negate the very basic fact that the virus is ubiquitous, travel is required, and some states and hospitals have travel restrictions already. This is nothing but smoke and mirrors and for them to wash their hands by saying we did all we had to do.

In other words, your safety and that lf your family/other people outside of the facilities where the exam will take place is none of their concern.

 

[NurWollen]

In other words, your safety and that lf your family/other people outside of the facilities where the exam will take place is none of their concern.

But 14 day quarantines for out of state travelers to the testing sites are their concern. There's no way around that.

 

[12jas]

I think we need to start reaching out to these individuals at John Hopkins. We need to get ahead of the NBOME. Imagine the image that they would have if we could get the press to say "John Hopkins Health Experts Recommending 6000 Students Fly to Chicago." If we can help them understand the bad PRthis would bring no way they sign off on the PE. Even if the NBOME is trying to limit their scope to testing facilities.

 

[DrRedstone]

I think we need to start reaching out to these individuals at John Hopkins. We need to get ahead of the NBOME. Imagine the image that they would have if we could get the press to say "John Hopkins Health Experts Recommending 6000 Students Fly to Chicago." If we can threaten them with bad PR no way they sign off on the PE. Even if the NBOME is trying to limit their scope to testing facilities.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but threatening Johns Hopkins may not be the best way to go about this. Perhaps letters asking them to consider factors outside of just the testing center would be better.

 

[unknownDO]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but threatening Johns Hopkins may not be the best way to go about this. Perhaps letters asking them to consider factors outside of just the testing center would be better.

Second it!

 

[BatmanDO9]

Ide like to know who is going to rubber stamp this from JH because I feel like if your going to say that what the NBOME is doing is okay and safe then you need to put your name on it.

 

[12jas]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but threatening Johns Hopkins may not be the best way to go about this. Perhaps letters asking them to consider factors outside of just the testing center would be better.

Yeah threaten was a poor choice of words. My bad. I meant encourage them to consider the implications of approving NBOME's plan.

 

[mathnerd88]

4 months not seeing a pt. Then jumping right into auditions is going to be tough

I agree, it's tough. Some of my intern class who just started hasn't seen a patient since December which makes it about 7 months. Imagine going on interviews for fourth year and then having a long covid break without touching any material and just spending time at home chilling after Match Day. It's definitely not easy, but at least what my residency program cares about is a subI getting a decent H&P, being on time, professional, pleasant, willing to learn and just overall just trying to help. We all know that it's hard to form an A/P even as an intern, let alone a subI. (If you can just perform the CLODIERS/ROS/SMASHFM/FEDTACOS and then doing a PE and just coming up with just a few basic DDx you'll be fine.) We don't expect everyone to be rockstars and can perform at a PGY-2/3 level.

That's why even though the majority feel that the Level 2-PE is useless, I feel that it does teach/force med students how to perform at least a proper H&P and at least some A/P. I believe there is some merit in this, because DO schools vary a lot in how they teach SPs or OSCEs (some don't even do this at all.) Believe me, if I were in your shoes I would also completely vote to abolish PE the way it is right now. They should be trying to do virtual PE exam from home (or their med school) which would basically alleviate most concerns on here, but probably impossible given the timeframe allowed.

Our expectations of what a fourth year can do is not what you would expect. Imposter Syndrome is real. I still don't really know anything as I haven't touched a patient for also about four months before starting, and admittedly, my baseline knowledge might even be less than a third year/fourth year medical student who has all the knowledge fresh after just taking Step 2/Level 2.

Keep in mind that medicine is teamwork. As long as you are a good team player that's what's going to put a good impression for us. I'm not sure what other specialties look for, but this has been my experience doing subI's in IM and now an IM resident.

 

[mathnerd88]

Also, I forgot to add, doing a subI during June/July/August/September months is actually a very good time. Interns are starting or just started and they probably need some (lots of?) help getting used to everything. Getting a max cap starting of 10 patients starting is not fun at all for us.

Any help you do as a subI, significant or not, will make a big impact to the medicine team. Offer help whenever you can. That's where you'll get massive brownie points. Something as simple as writing just the H&P (not necessarily A/P) for two patients you see will make a big impact on an intern who is already flooded with 6-7 others.

 

[TXKnight]

I doubt there is currently a medical school that does not have OSCEs or similar that teach that stuff. Students coming out of that program would crash and burn day one of 3rd year. My guess is that it must me mandated by COCA for accreditation?

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

John Hopkins Public Health people,

Tom Inglesby, MD - Director - [email protected]
Diane Meyer, RN, MPH - Managing Senior Analyst- [email protected]

No clue if those people know anything about the NBOME site visit. But i bet they could find out. I'll send an email over after i get off today.

 

[qwertythrowaway]

COVID19 Task Force Update - 7/7/2020

COVID19 Task Force Update - 7/7/2020 In order to keep these updates as succinct and brief as possible, we will only include new information since the previous updates. If interested, please find the previous update from 6/8/2020 HERE. Although we previously mentioned having weekly updates, goin...

docs.google.com

the overwhelming majority of DO students are in favor of blinding PE test results and cite major safety concerns w/r/t the PE.
Dr. Gimpel reiterated his position of "don't take it if you don't feel comfortable!"
Executive directors for the MS and OK osteo boards were also present for the meeting. Doesn't sound like much has come from it..but glad it wasn't just Brysen and Dr. Gimpel.

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

COVID19 Task Force Update - 7/7/2020

COVID19 Task Force Update - 7/7/2020 In order to keep these updates as succinct and brief as possible, we will only include new information since the previous updates. If interested, please find the previous update from 6/8/2020 HERE. Although we previously mentioned having weekly updates, goin...

docs.google.com

the overwhelming majority of DO students are in favor of blinding PE test results and cite major safety concerns w/r/t the PE.
Dr. Gimpel reiterated his position of "don't take it if you don't feel comfortable!"
Executive directors for the MS and OK osteo boards were also present for the meeting. Doesn't sound like much has come from it..but glad it wasn't just Brysen and Dr. Gimpel.

and COSGP won't take a stance one way or the other. Suck ups and politicians.

 

[BatmanDO9]

I don’t know how you all feel but I cant ****ing stand Dr Gimpel and his responses to everything! How did he end up in his current position when he so clearly doesn’t give two ****s what anyone thinks?

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

I don’t know how you all feel but I cant ****ing stand Dr Gimpel and his responses to everything! How did he end up in his current position when he so clearly doesn’t give two ****s what anyone thinks?

He has been at the VP level or higher at the NBOME since the early 2000s. He is ancient and isnt going to budge. He also was the architect of the PE exam, it's his baby.

 

[StudentDr.A]

Dr. Gimpel reiterated his position of "don't take it if you don't feel comfortable”

That’s all fine and good but still does not address the mandatory 14 day quarantine vs $500+ dollar fine we will be looking at if we break said quarantine. I am supposed to feel comfortable taking an exam when the city I am testing in doesn’t feel safe having me there? Yea how much duress will getting fined as we walk into the exam be taken into consideration when scoring the exam? Because I can promise I will be livid and probably come off as hostile and fail the humanistic domain of an exam that I shouldn’t even be taking, all while trying to avoid catching a plague that might others kill me. So forgive me “John” is I don’t exactly feel comfortable taking the exam until the entirety of the plague is over. Tbh, I don’t even think this man deserves his license to practice as a physician any longer.

 

[12jas]

and COSGP won't take a stance one way or the other. Suck ups and politicians.

This is what I found most frustrating "COSGP is not taking a position on the cancelation of the exam and subsequent removal from licensure." What more do they need they launched a survey and saw the position of the overwhelming majority of DO students. They then decided to do nothing and say nothing in response. These are the leaders that are supposed to be advocating the most for our interests and they won't even take a stand.

 

[bigt1mer]

4th year straight up sucks so far

 

[TXKnight]

It's the most frustrating **** ever

 

[ciestar]

Also, I forgot to add, doing a subI during June/July/August/September months is actually a very good time. Interns are starting or just started and they probably need some (lots of?) help getting used to everything. Getting a max cap starting of 10 patients starting is not fun at all for us.

Any help you do as a subI, significant or not, will make a big impact to the medicine team. Offer help whenever you can. That's where you'll get massive brownie points. Something as simple as writing just the H&P (not necessarily A/P) for two patients you see will make a big impact on an intern who is already flooded with 6-7 others.

So much this.

 

[ciestar]

4th year straight up sucks so far

Even without COVID, the beginning of M4 sucks.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

I agree, it's tough. Some of my intern class who just started hasn't seen a patient since December which makes it about 7 months. Imagine going on interviews for fourth year and then having a long covid break without touching any material and just spending time at home chilling after Match Day. It's definitely not easy, but at least what my residency program cares about is a subI getting a decent H&P, being on time, professional, pleasant, willing to learn and just overall just trying to help. We all know that it's hard to form an A/P even as an intern, let alone a subI. (If you can just perform the CLODIERS/ROS/SMASHFM/FEDTACOS and then doing a PE and just coming up with just a few basic DDx you'll be fine.) We don't expect everyone to be rockstars and can perform at a PGY-2/3 level.

That's why even though the majority feel that the Level 2-PE is useless, I feel that it does teach/force med students how to perform at least a proper H&P and at least some A/P. I believe there is some merit in this, because DO schools vary a lot in how they teach SPs or OSCEs (some don't even do this at all.) Believe me, if I were in your shoes I would also completely vote to abolish PE the way it is right now. They should be trying to do virtual PE exam from home (or their med school) which would basically alleviate most concerns on here, but probably impossible given the timeframe allowed.

Our expectations of what a fourth year can do is not what you would expect. Imposter Syndrome is real. I still don't really know anything as I haven't touched a patient for also about four months before starting, and admittedly, my baseline knowledge might even be less than a third year/fourth year medical student who has all the knowledge fresh after just taking Step 2/Level 2.

Keep in mind that medicine is teamwork. As long as you are a good team player that's what's going to put a good impression for us. I'm not sure what other specialties look for, but this has been my experience doing subI's in IM and now an IM resident.

I’m doing surgery and we are being thrown right in. They expect a lot from us regardless of covid

 

[unknownDO]

I hate both of them, but I would rather give money to Kayne than the NBOME!

See Which Illinois, NW Indiana Businesses Were Approved For Paycheck Protection Program Loans

More than 28,000 loans of $150,000 and above were approved for businesses in Illinois and Northwest Indiana as part of the Paycheck Protection Program, defined by the U.S. Small Business Administration as “a loan designed to provide a direct incentive for small businesses to keep their workers...

www.nbcchicago.com

 

[TXKnight]

I hate both of them, but I would rather give money to Kayne than the NBOME!

See Which Illinois, NW Indiana Businesses Were Approved For Paycheck Protection Program Loans

More than 28,000 loans of $150,000 and above were approved for businesses in Illinois and Northwest Indiana as part of the Paycheck Protection Program, defined by the U.S. Small Business Administration as “a loan designed to provide a direct incentive for small businesses to keep their workers...

www.nbcchicago.com

View attachment 312258

I don't see the number of jobs retained for NBOME. This loan was to keep businesses afloat, I doubt they really needed this...

 

[getfat]

This is what I found most frustrating "COSGP is not taking a position on the cancelation of the exam and subsequent removal from licensure." What more do they need they launched a survey and saw the position of the overwhelming majority of DO students. They then decided to do nothing and say nothing in response. These are the leaders that are supposed to be advocating the most for our interests and they won't even take a stand.

I mean you can't expect student leaders to take any strong stance or demand anything. I'm surprised they event submitted the proposal for a single board exam.

They are applying for a job just like the rest of this year.

We need the more deans, state licensing boards (like Oklahoma) and celebrities to speak out against this.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I mean you can't expect student leaders to take any strong stance or demand anything. I'm surprised they event submitted the proposal for a single board exam.

They are applying for a job just like the rest of this year.

We need the more deans, state licensing boards (like Oklahoma) and celebrities to speak out against this.

Eh. The Podiatry students took an official stance on their exam. I don't think it's too crazy to ask ours to do the same.

 

[ritts]

The COSGP is supposed to represent the student population and advocate for us. If over 90% of Students are against taking the PE right now then they should nut up and say something

 

[getfat]

Eh. The Podiatry students took an official stance on their exam. I don't think it's too crazy to ask ours to do the same.

Idk about your COSGP or DO council in your area but over here they have zero say in anything. They have zero power and take all the risk disagreeing or taking any strong stance against the governing bodies.

I'm glad the podiatry profession takes feedback from their students but the common theme i've heard from our reps is "we were told this is happening" with very little power to give feedback.

All i'm saying is I can understand our reps hesitation to take any strong stance against this if they aren't listening anyway.

Heck, they provided a poll that stated a large portion didn't feel comfortable traveling to the sites (and showed proof most of us had to travel via air) and gimple's response was "if you don't feel safe dont go".

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Idk about your COSGP or DO council in your area but over here they have zero say in anything. They have zero power and take all the risk disagreeing or taking any strong stance against the governing bodies.

How do you think we got the OK Osteo Association to make a statement?

It's weak for the literal student government bodies, who state they represent the students, to not take an official stance. If they don't function to represent the student body, who's wishes and opinions are VERY clear on this matter, then they shouldn't exist.

 

[12jas]

I mean you can't expect student leaders to take any strong stance or demand anything. I'm surprised they event submitted the proposal for a single board exam.

They are applying for a job just like the rest of this year.

We need the more deans, state licensing boards (like Oklahoma) and celebrities to speak out against this.

They ran for the position in order to advocate and represent students. You absolutely can and should expect your leaders to advocate for you. Thats the whole point. A leader can write a proposal as a representation of the student body even if they personally don't agree with said proposal. In fact that is their obligation. They are applying to residency PD's DO NOT EQUAL the NBOME. In fact I have seen a number of PD's speak out against the NBOME's stance. I suggest you rethink your idea of leadership.

 

[Scrubs101]

They ran for the position in order to advocate and represent students. You absolutely can and should expect your leaders to advocate for you. Thats the whole point. A leader can write a proposal as a representation of the student body even if they personally don't agree with said proposal. In fact that is their obligation. They are applying to residency PD's DO NOT EQUAL the NBOME. In fact I have seen a number of PD's speak out against the NBOME's stance. I suggest you rethink your idea of leadership.

If it's true that they are not taking an official stance and advocating for us it makes me think maybe it wasn't about becoming our advocates/representatives and more about resume building.

 

[12jas]

If it's true that they are not taking an official stance and advocating for us it makes me think maybe it wasn't about becoming our advocates/representatives and more about resume building.

Haha yeah unfortunately this is so true. I look at the reps from my school and they want nothing more then to inherit the throne of Gimpel and make 600K without even touching a patient. They do everything to suck up to the very admin who actively make our lives hell as students.

 

[getfat]

resume building.

Agreed 100 percent.

@12jas glad you have certain expectation of student leadership but the fact is most of our reps did not join to go head to head with any administrator.

I don't think they wanted to be another NBOME admin but they definitely did not join to change anything.

At least in my area, our reps don't do well with confrontation so i don't expect them to take an aggressive stance against anyone.

 

[12jas]

Agreed 100 percent.

@12jas glad you have certain expectation of student leadership but the fact is most of our reps did not join to go head to head with any administrator.

I don't think they wanted to be another NBOME admin but they definitely did not join to change anything.

At least in my area, our reps don't do well with confrontation so i don't expect them to take an aggressive stance against anyone.

Yeah unrealistic expectations apparently.

 

[NurWollen]

Idk about your COSGP or DO council in your area but over here they have zero say in anything. They have zero power and take all the risk disagreeing or taking any strong stance against the governing bodies.

I'm glad the podiatry profession takes feedback from their students but the common theme i've heard from our reps is "we were told this is happening" with very little power to give feedback.

All i'm saying is I can understand our reps hesitation to take any strong stance against this if they aren't listening anyway.

Heck, they provided a poll that stated a large portion didn't feel comfortable traveling to the sites (and showed proof most of us had to travel via air) and gimple's response was "if you don't feel safe dont go".

Probably not practical but wouldn't it be amazing if students could organize a boycott? NBOME opens up the PE in spite of all reason, and no one registers? That would be legend.

 

[DrRedstone]

Probably not practical but wouldn't it be amazing if students could organize a boycott? NBOME opens up the PE in spite of all reason, and no one registers? That would be legend.

I am personally in favor of the boycott. If the organizations overseeing us do not take our health and well being into consideration, we have no choice but to look out for our own interests.

The problem is it really needs to be an (almost) all or none. Otherwise we are just needlessly jeopardizing our ability to be licensed.

Another problem is some schools are still pushing for students to take the PE, my own included (KCU).

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

No way that would work.

There are always those gunners and brown nosers who want to prove themselves by taking care of fake patients. They'd never cancel.

I know of one unfortunately...

 

[getfat]

Probably not practical but wouldn't it be amazing if students could organize a boycott? NBOME opens up the PE in spite of all reason, and no one registers? That would be legend.

If PDs didn't utilize it as a screening tool, it could've happened.

I know some people alot smarter than me are saying that the vast majority of us will not be affected by not having a PE score but it seems like too easy of a filter to use.

 

[BatmanDO9]

With how COVID 19 cases are going I just keep on waiting for them to announce that they are moving back the PE until October but hasn’t happened yet....this isn’t very smart of the longevity of NBOME because I don’t think Gimpel realizes that all the people he is currently pissing the **** off will be “the osteopathic physician community” in the near future... I think decisions like this should be made via vote by the entire osteopathic community and not just the handful of people at the nbome or AOA

 

[DrRedstone]

I imagine they are holding off delaying the PE again until at least the middle of August. I'm holding off on buying any plane tickets for my PE in September until a couple weeks before. It'll be more expensive, but at least I won't be as likely to lose the money.

 

[getfat]

I imagine they are holding off delaying the PE again until at least the middle of August. I'm holding off on buying any plane tickets for my PE in September until a couple weeks before. It'll be more expensive, but at least I won't be as likely to lose the money.

My PE exam in november got canceled this week they couldn't handle as many testers per session so i got "thanosed". So it feels like they are doing something to move forward.

 

[Neopolymath]

My PE exam in november got canceled this week they couldn't handle as many testers per session so i got "thanosed". So it feels like they are doing something to move forward.

I wonder when someone is going to crunch the numbers and realize that they physically cannot test everyone plus get class of 2022 done before they need it next year as well. Can't wait for that "aha" moment.

 

[TXKnight]

3 people test positive for Covid-19 after taking Delta flight from Atlanta to Albany, airline says

The airline says it is following the guidance of local health care officials and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

www.cnn.com

Something like this is bound to happen when PE resumes, but multiplied....

 

[unknownDO]

3 people test positive for Covid-19 after taking Delta flight from Atlanta to Albany, airline says

The airline says it is following the guidance of local health care officials and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

www.cnn.com

Something like this is bound to happen when PE resumes, but multiplied....

Gimpel will just tell us to drive -or worse - walk to the PE. Sucks if you live on the west coast, and don't forget about the 14 day quarantine.

 

[sunshinefl]

My PE exam in november got canceled this week they couldn't handle as many testers per session so i got "thanosed". So it feels like they are doing something to move forward.

I didn’t even know this was a possibility!

 

[Mad Jack]

I wonder how good the settlement would be for anyone that caught COVID as a result of being forced to take the PE...

 

[Ho0v-man]

I wonder how good the settlement would be for anyone that caught COVID as a result of being forced to take the PE...

Meh probably not much. They’ll argue that you can’t prove that’s where you got it.

 

[getfat]

Gimpel will just tell us to drive -or worse - walk to the PE. Sucks if you live on the west coast, and don't forget about the 14 day quarantine.

"if you don't feel comfortable traveling or taking the test then don't take it"

 

[ritts]

According to the Facebook group, it seems the official COSGP stance is in the works and will probably reflect a lot of our concerns. Regardless, I believe the likelihood of the NBOME taking the concerns of their measly, uneducated students is low. I’m sure Gimpel is more concerned about his vacation to the Alps