Addressing PE

[Dr. Rafiki]

It probably will go away or at least quiet down after the November election...

That depends on who wins the election....

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[Noisewater-TDX]

By osteopathic principles, it should go away. We’ve already taken the pandemic the way it likes to go, to the point of ease, or rather, it’s indirect barrier. So logically it should improve.

I guess with so many people going into ARDS, we weren’t able to apply respiratory force.

i hate you for making me laugh at an OMM Joke.

 

[qwertythrowaway]

last ditch suggestion to register for tonights webinar and submit a question to ERAS regarding blinding of Step 2 CS/Comlex Level 2 PE scores.

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

last ditch suggestion to register for tonights webinar and submit a question to ERAS regarding blinding of Step 2 CS/Comlex Level 2 PE scores.

was anything useful mentioned?

 

[qwertythrowaway]

was anything useful mentioned?

sorry for the late reply - they did not answer the question about the PE/CS scores being reported.
webinar was very basic, not necessary to watch it.

 

[frenchyn]

sorry for the late reply - they did not answer the question about the PE/CS scores being reported.
webinar was very basic, not necessary to watch it.

Are we surprised lol? Scam A to Z.

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

guys/gals, we need to remember to ramp up the pressure on NBOME about midway through September into October. We can't let them slide back into business as usual.

In mid October the AOA will also have a special meeting that has some sort of resolution on it about COVID. The AOA website says it will post these resolutions for public viewing no later than 30 days prior to the meeting. It'll be interesting to see what they will be voting on.

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

Currently watching the COCA conference. There are 2 students on the board. Hopefully they do something useful.

Gimple speaks sometime around 1pm CST.

 

[drplzz]

Currently watching the COCA conference. There are 2 students on the board. Hopefully they do something useful.

Gimple speaks sometime around 1pm CST.

please update us! Thanks for looking out.

 

[cbc86]

please update us! Thanks for looking out.

I will go ahead and update you now! Gimpel will say nothing about PE, the students on the board will say nothing about PE, and COCA will congratulate itself for removing PE as a requirement for graduation.

 

[hawthorn9797]

I will go ahead and update you now! Gimpel will say nothing about PE, the students on the board will say nothing about PE, and COCA will congratulate itself for removing PE as a requirement for graduation.

What about all the people this is screwing over for residency, the reason we went to medical school??? Why is this not an issue to them. WTF I am so done with this ****

 

[Neopolymath]

What about all the people this is screwing over for residency, the reason we went to medical school??? Why is this not an issue to them. WTF I am so done with this ****

DO schools and admin are notorious for losing sight of their purpose to students: getting into residency. That's why they have all of these weird policies like limiting vacation for interviews and minimizing dedicated etc. It's really ironic because doing the right thing would make them look better because people would match better. Too stupid to see that though.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

DO schools and admin are notorious for losing sight of their purpose to students: getting into residency. That's why they have all of these weird policies like limiting vacation for interviews and minimizing dedicated etc. It's really ironic because doing the right thing would make them look better because people would match better. Too stupid to see that though.

The problem is we have students complaining right now, and then they become Deans and Board members later, and they completely forgot what it was like when they were students. I don't know if this is just how the system works or if people just become out of touch with reality or something, but this is the reason why the same issues keep on perpetuating from one generation to the next.

 

[EMDoc22]

DO schools and admin are notorious for losing sight of their purpose to students: getting into residency. That's why they have all of these weird policies like limiting vacation for interviews and minimizing dedicated etc. It's really ironic because doing the right thing would make them look better because people would match better. Too stupid to see that though.

My school gives us six weeks off to use throughout fourth year. But the catch is that six weeks encompasses time off for Step/Level 2 dedicated, interviews and then any personal breaks I might want. And we can only use it a week at a time so unless I can somehow schedule all my interviews in the same weeks, I'm not quite sure how that's going to work.

 

[Neurality]

Fortunately interviews will be conducted virtually this year so that at least saves a day or more of travel. But it will still require the actual day off. And as @GoCards05 mentioned above, that still cuts into dedicated, vacation and sick time.

 

[Neopolymath]

The problem is we have students complaining right now, and then they become Deans and Board members later, and they completely forgot what it was like when they were students. I don't know if this is just how the system works or if people just become out of touch with reality or something, but this is the reason why the same issues keep on perpetuating from one generation to the next.

Unfortunately, much like politics, the people most capable and qualified are too busy doing their real job (physician) and being with their family. Typically and on average, mostly people with issues go into politics and admin. Sure there are some rare exceptions but it's the unfortunate reality. There isn't really a fix to this. Who would willingly subject themselves to this job? I certainly won't in the future. People can judge me that I'm part of the problem but I only have 1 life.

You are right though, many people are quick to forget. I met interns that were complete dicks even though they were weak students and stuff like that. I think the process just makes some people just rude.

 

[hawthorn9797]

Currently watching the COCA conference. There are 2 students on the board. Hopefully they do something useful.

Gimple speaks sometime around 1pm CST.

Thank you for keeping an eye out for us, are there any updates? Thanks

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

The problem is we have students complaining right now, and then they become Deans and Board members later, and they completely forgot what it was like when they were students. I don't know if this is just how the system works or if people just become out of touch with reality or something, but this is the reason why the same issues keep on perpetuating from one generation to the next.

Unfortunately, much like politics, the people most capable and qualified are too busy doing their real job (physician) and being with their family. Typically and on average, mostly people with issues go into politics and admin. Sure there are some rare exceptions but it's the unfortunate reality. There isn't really a fix to this. Who would willingly subject themselves to this job? I certainly won't in the future. People can judge me that I'm part of the problem but I only have 1 life.

You are right though, many people are quick to forget. I met interns that were complete dicks even though they were weak students and stuff like that. I think the process just makes some people just rude.

This. The people who tend to go into DO leadership positions are the ones who love the system (we all know those classmates...).

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

SOMA purposed that Level 1 be abolished and pushed to create a unified exam with a non optional OMM add on for DO students. It seems like all the people that were born in the 40s and 50s and hold voting seats did not appreciate that proposal. A slew of Karens chimed in and spewed some OMM BS, "we are unique," a RN on the board said DOs are better than MDs - blah blah blah.

Dr.McCord? Not sure who he is, essentially said some people are going to have to die before changes are going to take place on the COMLEX exams. I assume he meant via natural causes and was reffering to the "brick wall" of the old guard. But that was a funny moment in the conversation.

COSGP - Brady Stevens, OMS-IV - He actually brought up Level 2PE. NO ONE asked any question or made any comments. Crickets

Gimple - Very scripted. He said the November start date is still the target and that by March they may have a 3rd center up and running somewhere in the west.

He did say that he thought it was wrong that GME PDs would be able to see if a student had taken the PE or not. But he was getting stonewalled by politics at COCA and the AOA in terms of blinding on ERAS.

A few people commented that they don't understand why the COMLEX isnt considered by all GME programs. Gimple said he doesn't know why any DO student "who was proud of being an osteopath" would take the USMLE.

Nothing really useful or new was shared.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Gimple said he doesn't know why any DO student "who was proud of being an osteopath" would take the USMLE.

Lol. It's sad that this is our leadership.

 

[Ho0v-man]

SOMA purposed that Level 1 be abolished and pushed to create a unified exam with a non optional OMM add on for DO students. It seems like all the people that were born in the 40s and 50s and hold voting seats did not appreciate that proposal. A slew of Karens chimed in and spewed some OMM BS, "we are unique," a RN on the board said DOs are better than MDs - blah blah blah.

Dr.McCord? Not sure who he is, essentially said some people are going to have to die before changes are going to take place on the COMLEX exams. I assume he meant via natural causes and was reffering to the "brick wall" of the old guard. But that was a funny moment in the conversation.

COSGP - Brady Stevens, OMS-IV - He actually brought up Level 2PE. NO ONE asked any question or made any comments. Crickets
View attachment 316548


Gimple - Very scripted. He said the November start date is still the target and that by March they may have a 3rd center up and running somewhere in the west.

He did say that he thought it was wrong that GME PDs would be able to see if a student had taken the PE or not. But he was getting stonewalled by politics at COCA and the AOA in terms of blinding on ERAS.

A few people commented that they don't understand why the COMLEX isnt considered by all GME programs. Gimple said he doesn't know why any DO student "who was proud of being an osteopath" would take the USMLE.

Nothing really useful or new was shared.

I love these statements. You know they’re sitting around like

Admin1: “Students aren’t as proud to be DOs as we were back in the day. What do we do?”

Admin 2: “Do you think it’s because their tuition is 60 times higher than ours was despite offering fewer career opportunities and expecting superior academic performance?”

A1: “No no. Its definitely not that. They probably just need a fourth rural FM rotation. Then they’ll really respect osteopathic leadership.”

A2: “But won’t that cut into the vacation time they need to interview? They already only have one month total to split between interviews and board studying. The MD school down the road gets three months for vacation and interviews and another month for boards.”

A1: “We have no choice. The profession is at stake here!”

 

[Neopolymath]

The idea that anyone is proud to be a DO is hilarious. Everyone under 50 is just trying to be a physician. Science (and apparently appropriate leadership) advances one funeral at a time as they say. This is the Crux of the issue. They simply do not realize we aren't like them at all.

 

[SurgDoc95]

The idea that anyone is proud to be a DO is hilarious. Everyone under 50 is just trying to be a physician. Science (and apparently appropriate leadership) advances one funeral at a time as they say. This is the Crux of the issue. They simply do not realize we aren't like them at all.

I realize we’re all frustrated by the NBOME and the powers at be, but we need to stop with the whole notion that the older generation needs to die off and that we’ll be in a better place when they do. It’s becoming more and more commonplace for people to make comments about “boomers” and suggesting they are the reason for any plight we might be facing. It’s inappropriate y’all so please knock it off

 

[qwertythrowaway]

SOMA purposed that Level 1 be abolished and pushed to create a unified exam with a non optional OMM add on for DO students. It seems like all the people that were born in the 40s and 50s and hold voting seats did not appreciate that proposal. A slew of Karens chimed in and spewed some OMM BS, "we are unique," a RN on the board said DOs are better than MDs - blah blah blah.

Dr.McCord? Not sure who he is, essentially said some people are going to have to die before changes are going to take place on the COMLEX exams. I assume he meant via natural causes and was reffering to the "brick wall" of the old guard. But that was a funny moment in the conversation.

COSGP - Brady Stevens, OMS-IV - He actually brought up Level 2PE. NO ONE asked any question or made any comments. Crickets
View attachment 316548


Gimple - Very scripted. He said the November start date is still the target and that by March they may have a 3rd center up and running somewhere in the west.

He did say that he thought it was wrong that GME PDs would be able to see if a student had taken the PE or not. But he was getting stonewalled by politics at COCA and the AOA in terms of blinding on ERAS.

A few people commented that they don't understand why the COMLEX isnt considered by all GME programs. Gimple said he doesn't know why any DO student "who was proud of being an osteopath" would take the USMLE.

Nothing really useful or new was shared.

The bit about Gimple admitting it’s wrong for PDs to be able to see if DOs have taken the PE is intriguing. Certainly a pivot from his stance back in May/June. If blinding PE scores was really a priority of his, I think it would’ve happened by now.

 

[Neurality]

I think we could embrace the positive differences of being a DO and still have responsible action taken by competent leadership. It doesn't have to be an "either or" situation. Unfortunately, they have made it into one.

 

[Neopolymath]

I realize we’re all frustrated by the NBOME and the powers at be, but we need to stop with the whole notion that the older generation needs to die off and that we’ll be in a better place when they do. It’s becoming more and more commonplace for people to make comments about “boomers” and suggesting they are the reason for any plight we might be facing. It’s inappropriate y’all so please knock it off

We are gonna have to agree to disagree here. I suppose this isn't the thread to lay out a laundry list of material evidence to the contrary and labeling it "inappropriate" is quite debatable as well...

Anyways, on topic, the idea that they are attempting to make a Western testing center doesn't make it safer. It improves logistics but only they know when it has to be implemented for that to save their golden test.

Edit: It is interesting that a USMLE with a required OMM section was so staunchly rejected. I guess they know that it's not just a chance to kill NBOME money streams (by dissolving Comlex) but it's also another incremental step to turning OMM into an elective. Only one more stroke of the pen after that could take it off a USMLE exam that they don't control.

 

[Neopolymath]

I think we could embrace the positive differences of being a DO and still have responsible action taken by competent leadership. It doesn't have to be an "either or" situation. Unfortunately, they have made it into one.

There is not a single tangible difference in being a DO. This isn't 1910. It's an insult to MDs, frankly. It's a crutch and excuse to implement regressive policies. Separate but equal is exactly what got us into this mess.

 

[cbc86]

SOMA purposed that Level 1 be abolished and pushed to create a unified exam with a non optional OMM add on for DO students. It seems like all the people that were born in the 40s and 50s and hold voting seats did not appreciate that proposal. A slew of Karens chimed in and spewed some OMM BS, "we are unique," a RN on the board said DOs are better than MDs - blah blah blah.

Dr.McCord? Not sure who he is, essentially said some people are going to have to die before changes are going to take place on the COMLEX exams. I assume he meant via natural causes and was reffering to the "brick wall" of the old guard. But that was a funny moment in the conversation.

COSGP - Brady Stevens, OMS-IV - He actually brought up Level 2PE. NO ONE asked any question or made any comments. Crickets
View attachment 316548


Gimple - Very scripted. He said the November start date is still the target and that by March they may have a 3rd center up and running somewhere in the west.

He did say that he thought it was wrong that GME PDs would be able to see if a student had taken the PE or not. But he was getting stonewalled by politics at COCA and the AOA in terms of blinding on ERAS.

A few people commented that they don't understand why the COMLEX isnt considered by all GME programs. Gimple said he doesn't know why any DO student "who was proud of being an osteopath" would take the USMLE.

Nothing really useful or new was shared.

What meeting was this again? Was there a transcript made available or a recording?

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

What meeting was this again? Was there a transcript made available or a recording?

COCA Board Meeting.

Zoom said it was being recorded. Not sure if it will be released though.

 

[cbc86]

COCA Board Meeting.

Zoom said it was being recorded. Not sure if it will be released though.

Lets keep our eyes out for a recording of it shall we?

 

[Mad Jack]

The problem is we have students complaining right now, and then they become Deans and Board members later, and they completely forgot what it was like when they were students. I don't know if this is just how the system works or if people just become out of touch with reality or something, but this is the reason why the same issues keep on perpetuating from one generation to the next.

It's because the kind of people that are drawn to power care about power, not people. They don't care what happens to others so long as it isn't happening to them directly

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I realize we’re all frustrated by the NBOME and the powers at be, but we need to stop with the whole notion that the older generation needs to die off and that we’ll be in a better place when they do. It’s becoming more and more commonplace for people to make comments about “boomers” and suggesting they are the reason for any plight we might be facing. It’s inappropriate y’all so please knock it off

Yeah I'm with @Neopolymath on this one. The problems of the DO world are 100% the fault of the old guard DO's that are in power. They really do not understand how different we feel about all of this than they do. They refuse to see it honestly, because it's pretty clear.

I mean Gimpel's comment there about "no DO student who is proud to be an osteopath would take USMLE" is literally a microcosm for how delusional their thinking is. 60%+ of DO students currently take USMLE.....

 

[cbc86]

Yeah I'm with @Neopolymath on this one. The problems of the DO world are 100% the fault of the old guard DO's that are in power. They really do not understand how different we feel about all of this than they do. They refuse to see it honestly, because it's pretty clear.

I mean Gimpel's comment there about "no DO student who is proud to be an osteopath would take USMLE" is literally a microcosm for how delusional their thinking is. 60%+ of DO students currently take USMLE.....

It is such a delusional comment that one would be tempted to think "Nah these guys dont actually believe that... its just for show", but the problem is THEY DO. Until that attitude is changed, DO students will continue to be hindered.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

I realize we’re all frustrated by the NBOME and the powers at be, but we need to stop with the whole notion that the older generation needs to die off and that we’ll be in a better place when they do. It’s becoming more and more commonplace for people to make comments about “boomers” and suggesting they are the reason for any plight we might be facing. It’s inappropriate y’all so please knock it off

This isn’t a notion generated out of thin air. It’s based in reality. I’m sorry if that makes you uncomfortable but that’s just the reality of the situation. The old guard generation DOs are almost exclusively responsible and any young ones that play a role were directly influenced by them. I’ve been to the national conferences and seen it first hand. We were told specifically not to mention certain topics and specially to say “osteopathic medical student” instead of just medical student when addressing the old guards. It’s literally cult like and obviously financially motivated. This is the case in the real world as well, not just a DO student thing. And the mindset of it being “inappropriate” and To knock it off makes you complicit and only perpetuates the problems.

 

[MavFab]

This isn’t a notion generated out of thin air. It’s based in reality. I’m sorry if that makes you uncomfortable but that’s just the reality of the situation. The old guard generation DOs are almost exclusively responsible and any young ones that play a role were directly influenced by them. I’ve been to the national conferences and seen it first hand. We were told specifically not to mention certain topics and specially to say “osteopathic medical student” instead of just medical student when addressing the old guards. It’s literally cult like and obviously financially motivated. This is the case in the real world as well, not just a DO student thing. And the mindset of it being “inappropriate” and To knock it off makes you complicit and only perpetuates the problems.

I believe his statement was in reference to the general disdain for the older generation that has become prevalent among millenials, not specifically the NBOME.

 

[Neopolymath]

I believe his statement was in reference to the general disdain for the older generation that has become prevalent among millenials, not specifically the NBOME.

Weird thread to tangentially defend boomers then lol

 

[qwertythrowaway]

seems there was another nbome meeting over the weekend that the president of the nrmp (donna lamb) attended. any word on that? less than 2 months until ERAS opens. it would be amazing if they would agree to blind PE/CS scores.

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

seems there was another nbome meeting over the weekend that the president of the nrmp (donna lamb) attended. any word on that? less than 2 months until ERAS opens. it would be amazing if they would agree to blind PE/CS scores.

I like how the CEO of NRMP is a nurse (Donna Lamb)..... and has never been through the match. I'm a former RN, so i can call that BS without offending anyone.

 

[BatmanDO9]

I like how the CEO of NRMP is a nurse (Donna Lamb)..... and has never been through the match. I'm a former RN, so i can call that BS without offending anyone.

Are you kidding me? The person in charge of the match isn’t even a physician? I argued a speeding ticket one time, do you think I can be Dean of a Law School?

 

[BatmanDO9]

Are you kidding me? The person in charge of the match isn’t even a physician? I argued a speeding ticket one time, do you think I can be Dean of a Law School?

Actually a better analogy....that’s like me becoming a police chief even though I’ve never been a cop.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

I believe his statement was in reference to the general disdain for the older generation that has become prevalent among millenials, not specifically the NBOME.

Well In their defense the boomer bashing 100% started after years of “snowflake millennials” comments from any boomer with a social media account. Don’t dish it out of you can’t take it lol

 

[NurWollen]

I like how the CEO of NRMP is a nurse (Donna Lamb)..... and has never been through the match. I'm a former RN, so i can call that BS without offending anyone.

I dare you to go around writing DO, RN on your resume. Actually, it would probably help you out in job searches, climbing ladders, getting committee spots, etc.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

In the mean time 2020 PD survey is out

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-PD-Survey-1.pdf

 

[DrRedstone]

In the mean time 2020 PD survey is out

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-PD-Survey-1.pdf

The PE is in the #1 store for importance! Wait, no, it's way down on the list.

 

[Neurality]

The PE is in the #1 store for importance! Wait, no, it's way down on the list.

Percentage of programs not requiring passage of comlex PE: 40%. Niiice.

 

[DrRedstone]

Percentage of programs not requiring passage of comlex PE: 40%. Niiice.

Ophtho isn't on the list, which is sad, but I believe they are similar. Which is good, since I'm not taking the PE until just before I graduate now...

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

I dare you to go around writing DO, RN on your resume. Actually, it would probably help you out in job searches, climbing ladders, getting committee spots, etc.

Heh. I plan on it.

Just surprised that an RN is running the NRMP. Figured it would be a DO or MD.

 

[YeOleBoneWiz]

hopefully this scenario will be the death to this archeiac and pointless administration. the NBOME cares not of the public, but only to pad its pockets with the money of broke medical students. Praying it will be absorbed by the NBME and it will die a harsh and painful death as it should, as VHS tapes did 20 years ago.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

COMLEX-USA Level 2-PE in era of COVID-19

Mustafa M. Basree, MS, Shelly Gupta, BS and Samuel George, BS The Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic created many challenges for medical education.

www.linkedin.com

Excellent piece. Share this with everyone you can.

 

[TXKnight]

I attended a virtual residency conference a few weeks ago where close to 100 residencies were present. I asked several PDs (~12) about their plans regarding PE and students who don't have a score or who have failed and can't retake yet. Unfortunately, ALL but ONE said that either they expected/strongly favored applicants with PE score by ERAS opening OR that they needed it by match. I will say that there was a lot of confusion when I followed my question with the fact that PE suspended until Nov and that we can graduate without a PE, MOST Pd's didn't know or where unaware of the details. This is just under TWO MONTHS before ERAS opens! Someone in leadership need to update PDs across the nation ASAP about what is happening in the boards front, otherwise we will get totally screwed come ERAS