Addressing PE

[Prehealth1011]

I’m debating if I should keep my November date or move to June.

pros: results by ROL

cons: have to miss 2 days of an audition, it’s during interview season and I wouldn’t be able to miss any more time of that rotation for interviews per school max of 2 days, have to travel to Chicago and risk personal/hospital COVID19 exposure, risk having fail vs neutral, nervous about taking with masks affecting history gathering and humanism, chance it gets cancelled again or waived after I take it, chance they delay again and then I’ll be stuck rescheduling even later than June, wait 3 months for Feb result vs the 1 month wait for Dec result when I signed up for it

Another con: you might fail the PE like how CS failed a bunch of people once people complained about it.
I wouldn't take the PE pre-match especially if i'm taking time out of my audition rotation. The other poster isn't wrong either i think some programs will be misinformed enough that no PE pre-match will hurt. We're in the wonderful position of choosing what will hurt us less.

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[Neurality]

This is truly outrageous. Who had "Having to ask PD during an interview if they were aware PE was continuously delayed-but not cancelled" on their 2020 bingo card?

 

[getfat]

I’m debating if I should keep my November date or move to June.

pros: results by ROL

cons: have to miss 2 days of an audition, it’s during interview season and I wouldn’t be able to miss any more time of that rotation for interviews per school max of 2 days, have to travel to Chicago and risk personal/hospital COVID19 exposure, risk having fail vs neutral, nervous about taking with masks affecting history gathering and humanism, chance it gets cancelled again or waived after I take it, chance they delay again and then I’ll be stuck rescheduling even later than June, wait 3 months for Feb result vs the 1 month wait for Dec result when I signed up for it

Personally, i feel you should keep it. Worst case scenario you take it later during intern year.

On a audition right now and my PD asked about this. Still didn't understand why I had not completed my PE equivalent yet.

Even after taking a solid 10 minutes to try to give a spark notes version of why I may not have it. Still felt that students who took initiative during third year to get it done were " a good sign of a responsible future resident".

 

[Neopolymath]

I'm kind of more surprised by this situation than before. If a PD is ignorant to our situation you would think that they would know CS was canceled and therefore of course assume PE is canceled as well not this somehow worse scenario where they would somehow know CS was canceled but then actively know the PE is not but at the same time have no ****ing clue what's going on.

Well, after writing that it makes more sense. I have no clue what's going on (beyond getting screwed by the crooks at the NBOME) so how can I expect the PDs to follow along?

 

[ritts]

I'm kind of more surprised by this situation than before. If a PD is ignorant to our situation you would think that they would know CS was canceled and therefore of course assume PE is canceled as well not this somehow worse scenario where they would somehow know CS was canceled but then actively know the PE is not but at the same time have no ****ing clue what's going on.

Well, after writing that it makes more sense. I have no clue what's going on (beyond getting screwed by the crooks at the NBOME) so how can I expect the PDs to follow along?

the way I see it, if they are comparing 2 DO applicants: one has a passed PE and the other doesn't, they will lean towards the one that has the passed one (because of licensing purposes). Maybe I'm just overthinking the situation

Also @getfat, my school has a course we have to pass before taking the PE. Mine was scheduled so late, that I couldn't possibly take the PE any sooner than May. Not because I didn't take the initiative.

 

[getfat]

Also @getfat, my school has a course we have to pass before taking the PE. Mine was scheduled so late, that I couldn't possibly take the PE any sooner than May. Not because I didn't take the initiative.

Didn't bring that up but its a good point. Our school just said take it as soon as possible before you learn too many bad habits.

But if i'm being honest, the place i'm at right now has no idea what a DO is. They definitely regard me as a student doctor but I get asked alot of OMM like i'm some kind of expert lol.

Doing a lot more OMM than I thought and doing presentations about relevent OMM techniques for MSK complaints.

 

[risperdoll]

the way I see it, if they are comparing 2 DO applicants: one has a passed PE and the other doesn't, they will lean towards the one that has the passed one (because of licensing purposes). Maybe I'm just overthinking the situation

Also @getfat, my school has a course we have to pass before taking the PE. Mine was scheduled so late, that I couldn't possibly take the PE any sooner than May. Not because I didn't take the initiative.

My school has a similar exam, but wouldn’t let us take the PE earlier than April 1 regardless of how early you passed the school-administered exam. I think one person in my whole class managed to somehow get an exception to take theirs early.

 

[DrRedstone]

Didn't bring that up but its a good point. Our school just said take it as soon as possible before you learn too many bad habits.

But if i'm being honest, the place i'm at right now has no idea what a DO is. They definitely regard me as a student doctor but I get asked alot of OMM like i'm some kind of expert lol.

Doing a lot more OMM than I thought and doing presentations about relevent OMM techniques for MSK complaints.

PD: "Why should we accept you into our program?"
You: "I can crack your back like a glowstick?"
PD: ...
You: ...
PD: When can you start?

 

[12jas]

Honestly....just tired of competing.

I feel this so much.

 

[TXKnight]

Guys, there's something you all need to realize, PDs are busy. They are not up to date on the happenings of students unless 1) they are actively involved in students at their affiliated med schools or 2) it directly affects how they do something (like the virtual interview season).

The only way they'll really get that PE doesn't exist for most students this year is by people actually telling them over and over, like @Scrubs101 is going to do. I would also encourage all DO residents inform their PDs that this exam has been postponed to the point that the vast majority of students will not have a result before ROL time and that its not required for graduation. My PD assumed it was canceled like the CS, because she's closely involved in the MD school here (I didn't bother to correct them because I think this is eventually what will happen and it doesn't hurt applicants).

Thanks! And this is exactly what I gathered from the virtual interview I attended, PDs for the most part do not know what's going on.

 

[Neopolymath]

Bump. So ready for October 1st so they can just take the last sliver of hope away and put me out of my misery.

I'm gonna be buried in an AOA, NBOME, COCA shirt so these fools can let me down one last time at the end of my days.

 

[hawthorn9797]

Bump. So ready for October 1st so they can just take the last sliver of hope away and put me out of my misery.

I'm gonna be buried in an AOA, NBOME, COCA shirt so these fools can let me down one last time at the end of my days.

Do we think we are going to
Get a definitive answer on october 1??

 

[Neopolymath]

Do we think we are going to
Get a definitive answer on october 1??

They said there would be an update that day and that's before ERAS opens to programs so effectively that's when we would expect a cancellation if so. I guess theoretically it could happen any time before rank lists but that still might reduce interview yield so it would still hurt given the lack of PD knowledge apparently.

 

[hawthorn9797]

They said there would be an update that day and that's before ERAS opens to programs so effectively that's when we would expect a cancellation if so. I guess theoretically it could happen any time before rank lists but that still might reduce interview yield so it would still hurt given the lack of PD knowledge apparently.

I really hope we get an answer october 1. Man that could either be like Christmas morning or the worst day ever

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I really hope we get an answer october 1. Man that could either be like Christmas morning or the worst day ever

Brace yourself. I am not optimistic. DO students will be the only group to take an in person exam like that lol. Even the oral board exams have been been cancelled at this point.

I plan on explaining to every PD that I will be able to be licensed through my USMLE sequence in their state so my lack of PE is inconsequential (I’m applying to very few programs in the 7 states that require it). Hell, I will take CS if I have to, out of pure spite.

 

[hawthorn9797]

Brace yourself. I am not optimistic. DO students will be the only group to take an in person exam like that lol. Even the oral board exams have been been cancelled at this point.

I plan on explaining to every PD that I will be able to be licensed through my USMLE sequence in their state so my lack of PE is inconsequential (I’m applying to very few programs in the 7 states that require it). Hell, I will take CS if I have to, out of pure spite.

Oh yeah, if at all possible I will not be paying the NBOME another dime. I would take CS simply to not have to demonstrate that I am a bone wizard

 

[Neopolymath]

Brace yourself. I am not optimistic. DO students will be the only group to take an in person exam like that lol. Even the oral board exams have been been cancelled at this point.

I plan on explaining to every PD that I will be able to be licensed through my USMLE sequence in their state so my lack of PE is inconsequential (I’m applying to very few programs in the 7 states that require it). Hell, I will take CS if I have to, out of pure spite.

This is the amazing part. Oral boards and actual important things got nerfed for a year plus and we are out here rubbing backs and asking if patients like sexing men women or both as if we are idiots who didn't do 3rd year or 4th year. Very impressive! Truly more important than anything else!

 

[Dr.Bruh]

My advice as someone who was lucky enough to take and pass the PE just before covid hit hard: if you have it schedule where you’d get a pass before rank list take it. The exam is a joke. Sure some people will fail but it’s insanely easy to pass if you don’t do something egregious. I watched the Kauffman vids 3-5 days before and that’s it. Was plenty didn’t practice rotations were enough. Your chance of failing is low if your a student who has never had problems with your coms SPs

 

[TXKnight]

Brace yourself. I am not optimistic. DO students will be the only group to take an in person exam like that lol. Even the oral board exams have been been cancelled at this point.

I plan on explaining to every PD that I will be able to be licensed through my USMLE sequence in their state so my lack of PE is inconsequential (I’m applying to very few programs in the 7 states that require it). Hell, I will take CS if I have to, out of pure spite.

I too plan on going the USMLE step 3 route. Not one more dollar to NBOME

 

[Neopolymath]

Let's discuss strategy:

Knowing that the NBOME is apparently allergic to doing the objectively correct thing here, we will likely be forced to inform programs of our situation ourselves given they don't even have the decency to do that for us in a meaningful way.

1. Has anyone been contacting PCs of programs in their field of interest to explain the situation before ERAS opens to mitigate rejections because programs don't think your app is complete?
2. Will you bring it up at your interviews proactively in order to gain a clear chance to openly address the lack of a PE score and explain that it is completely out of your control and MOST DO students are in the same situation?
3. Will you comment on your ability to pass PE before intern year given your (hopefully) good patient feedback, OSCEs, evals, and fact that 90+% pass first try overall so they do not think you are a clear risk to their program?
4. Will you avoid bringing it up at all in hopes that these programs just don't use it this cycle and that they are assuming we don't need PE because they have no idea wtf is going on?

I'm curious to see your thoughts on this. I believe @hallowmann mentioned that he didn't correct his PD's incorrect assumption about the situation because the PD's beliefs wouldn't affect applicants this year. Does anyone have any pros or cons to the various options we have?

Part of me wants to just let it ride and address it during interviews, but part of me also thinks that it wouldn't take more than 10 minutes to create a form email to blast to all the programs I'm interested in. It would bring it to their attention and I could judge their responses. Sure, most responses will be polite and useless but some will probably tell you how they really feel. This might affect how many programs I apply to. Just thinking here...

 

[getfat]

Has anyone been contacting PCs of programs in their field of interest to explain the situation before ERAS opens to mitigate rejections because programs don't think your app is complete?

A lot of programs are doing open houses via Zoom. Personally, I've been asking this as a f/u question at the end of the presentation. A lot of programs have wanted Step/Level 2 complete by ranking.
Personally, I'm not sure how to properly say "what if we physically cannot complete level 2 PE because of scheduling issues (last time i checked the earliest available date was July 2021)

Will you avoid bringing it up at all in hopes that these programs just don't use it this cycle and that they are assuming we don't need PE because they have no idea wtf is going on?

We will see what happens October 1st. I plan on not bringing it up because of two reasons.
1) If i've hit the interview stage, then i'm assuming that i've met the "numbers" the programs needs to see. They shouldn't be overtly concerned about me passing boards. Or they would be prepared to talk to me about it anyway.
2)I'm worried I will say something negative about my governing body (NBOME). Which will make me look bad.

 

[drplzz]

Duane Morris LLP - Osteopaths Settle Class Action Against American Osteopathic Association

www.duanemorris.com

anyone down for round 2 but with the NBOME?

 

[zNoodlez]

Duane Morris LLP - Osteopaths Settle Class Action Against American Osteopathic Association

www.duanemorris.com

anyone down for round 2 but with the NBOME?

Didn't realize this was a thing, how low can AOA go to increase their profit margin?

 

[ritts]

I spoke to the PD during an away rotation. He knew that many students would not have a PE this year and said that his program didn't care if people had a passed PE this year. To be fair, I'm applying to a DO heavy field (PM&R) and this would diminish the applicant pool significantly. He said he had some meetings coming up so hopefully this will be brought to the attention of other programs as well

 

[TheGift]

I spoke to the PD during an away rotation. He knew that many students would not have a PE this year and said that his program didn't care if people had a passed PE this year. To be fair, I'm applying to a DO heavy field (PM&R) and this would diminish the applicant pool significantly. He said he had some meetings coming up so hopefully this will be brought to the attention of other programs as well

yea if I had to guess, hopefully PDs will have common sense when they see that most applicants lack the exam. I dont see how any of them can utilize the PE/CS specific filters or chances are they will have to SOAP and programs don't want to go through that either.

 

[drplzz]

does anyone still have this as a graduation requirement?

 

[hawthorn9797]

does anyone still have this as a graduation requirement?

Yep, KCU does

 

[DrRedstone]

Yep, KCU does

...Unless we can't take it, then they wave their hands and ignore the "requirement."
Source: Taking PE less than 1 week before graduation, definitely won't have the score back in time.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

Yep, KCU does

Lol wtf

 

[hawthorn9797]

I was

...Unless we can't take it, then they wave their hands and ignore the "requirement."
Source: Taking PE less than 1 week before graduation, definitely won't have the score back in time.

I was gonna say... I can’t test until July lmao. I wonder if they will just decide if they like us or not to determine who graduates and who remediates fourth year in all rural OMM rotations

 

[Noisewater-TDX]

https://osteopathic.org/wp-content/uploads/2020-HOD-Resolutions.pdf

Not one resolution on COVID or Level 2PE for the special AOA meeting in October. Bunch of politicians.

 

[qwertythrowaway]

the things they care about:



the things they should care about:

admittedly, the tweet from dr. heitkamp is a small sample size. but geez. buckle up and cast a wide net with applications. keep spreading the word about the PE, keep educating classmates about the pathway to licensure via the USMLE, continue advocating for yourselves and other DO students.

 

[aladdin11]

Hi guys,

Anyone have any official source of information (like a link from NBMEs website, or info from their deans) that shows the DO students can get licensed through Usmles and bypass Comlex Level II PE?

Was looking for concrete info to confirm this to pass on to school officials and classmates.

Thank you all

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Hi guys,

Anyone have any official source of information (like a link from NBMEs website) that shows the DO students can get licensed through them and bypass Comlex Level2?

Was looking for concrete info to confirm this.

Thank you all

It’s on the AOA’s website. It’s a document with state licensure requirements. Look at individual state laws.

An FSMB representative confirmed it at a national webinar in June

 

[CocoMelon0531]

Is it mandatory to pass the USMLE or COMLEX 1 and 2 in the first attempt before being invited to interview?
All candidates must pass USMLE Step 1 & Step 2-CK or COMLEX Level 1 & Level 2-CE on the first attempt in order to be considered for a residency position in Stony Brook Neurology. We are aware that dates for Step exams may be delayed this year due to the COVID pandemic and will take this into consideration. Generally, applicants must also pass USMLE Step 2-CS or COMLEX Level 2-PE on the first attempt. However, we are aware of additional constraints for the 2020-2021 application season due to the COVID pandemic and will evaluate applications accordingly. Applicants who have failed either the CS or PE exams will not be considered.

Frequently Asked Questions... | Renaissance School of Medicine at Stony Brook University

They will extend you an II if you're competitive without a passing CS/PE score beforehand. If you have a failed CS/PE score, you will not be extended an II.

If you have a failed CS/PE score or won't have one before Feb 1, you will not be considered for the final rank list. That applies to other programs with similar wordings on their websites.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Lol citing program websites is useless and completely irrelevant. Only one of those citations is updated info.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

NOT true.
1) However, we are aware of additional constraints for the 2020-2021 application season due to the COVID pandemic and will evaluate applications accordingly.
2) The program "prefers" that both USMLE CK & CS/CE & PE scores are submitted before an applicant is offered an interview, however, we understand that due to COVID-19, this may not be possible for this application season.
3) Due to the pandemic we understand that clinical skills examinations have been deferred.

Ok 3/11 lol.

 

[hawthorn9797]

They will extend you an II if you're competitive without a passing CS/PE score beforehand. If you have a failed CS/PE score, you will not be extended an II.

If you have a failed CS/PE score or won't have one before Feb 1, you will not be considered for the final rank list. That applies to other programs with similar wordings on their websites.

This is incorrect, that implies that no MD (except for the ones who took CS before the shutdown) will be considered for The final rank order lists Because CS is completely gone this year.???

 

[CocoMelon0531]

This is incorrect, that implies that no MD (except for the ones who took CS before the shutdown) will be considered for The final rank order lists Because CS is completely gone this year.???

MDs don’t require CS to take Step 3 or graduate.

I’m just giving you my perspective as a resident.

There is a reason why SOAP is extended for this upcoming year.

 

[hawthorn9797]

MDs don’t require CS to take Step 3 or graduate.

I’m just giving you my perspective as a resident.

There is a reason why SOAP is extended for this upcoming year.

But it literally says “CS/PE”

 

[Chimapnzee3]

1. Has anyone been contacting PCs of programs in their field of interest to explain the situation before ERAS opens to mitigate rejections because programs don't think your app is complete?
2. Will you bring it up at your interviews proactively in order to gain a clear chance to openly address the lack of a PE score and explain that it is completely out of your control and MOST DO students are in the same situation?

On the ERAS experience section, there is a box you can check that asks "Was your medical education/training extended or interrupted? " If you check yes, you are given 510 characters to discuss the disruption(s).

Perhaps we could come up with a uniform statement that all DOs who have not taken the PE exam could add to this box. That way PDs could see the same statement repeated multiple times and it would serve as a sort of notification to say that "Oh, hey, the situation for this person is the same as for the last person regarding them being a responsible student that simply had their exam cancelled due to forces out of their control. Perhaps I should take a little time to understand that whole situation a little better given than DO students are a valued group in our residency program..."

If maybe COSPG or some other org could endorse the statement it might de-risk the statement as well, making it less political and just sort of a de-facto standard notification. And to save character counts so that folks could add additional info more unique to their circumstance, there could possibly also be a link for further information, saying something like "For further information on the situation you can visit this webpage prepared by [legitimate supporting organization]."

Sorry my grammar is a little all over the place here. My brain is a bit fried from trying to think about how to deal with all this stuff. But hopefully, the general concept makes sense. Just a thought.

 

[frenchyn]

On the ERAS experience section, there is a box you can check that asks "Was your medical education/training extended or interrupted? " If you check yes, you are given 510 characters to discuss the disruption(s).

Perhaps we could come up with a uniform statement that all DOs who have not taken the PE exam could add to this box. That way PDs could see the same statement repeated multiple times and it would serve as a sort of notification to say that "Oh, hey, the situation for this person is the same as for the last person regarding them being a responsible student that simply had their exam cancelled due to forces out of their control. Perhaps I should take a little time to understand that whole situation a little better given than DO students are a valued group in our residency program..."

If maybe COSPG or some other org could endorse the statement it might de-risk the statement as well, making it less political and just sort of a de-facto standard notification. And to save character counts so that folks could add additional info more unique to their circumstance, there could possibly also be a link for further information, saying something like "For further information on the situation you can visit this webpage prepared by [legitimate supporting organization]."

Sorry my grammar is a little all over the place here. My brain is a bit fried from trying to think about how to deal with all this stuff. But hopefully, the general concept makes sense. Just a thought.

it is crazy how we all are freaking out about these discrepancies...NBME/aamc/lcgme...etc are radiosilent...I became so furious when I got these stupid emails from aamc for support etc...but nothing to do w this current state...I feel like they took covid and make things x100 times more difficult for med students.

 

[Neopolymath]

The wording of the survey email today was strange. So they have vaguely mentioned a Western site for months and even mentioned a specific city this time. If they already have a plan, why ask student opinions on this? If the plan is in place then student response doesn't suddenly matter and it's not like they actually give a **** what we think based on their track record illustrating otherwise. If the plan isn't actually in place then they are legit doing a survey at the end of September for something their *******es should have figured out months ago. It's likely this is what their Oct. 1st planned announcement is about but it's hard to figure out why.

If someone is from Maine they will say it won't help. If someone is from Arizona they will say it will help. They already know the answer to the question.

The real question is if this is a last gasp effort to determine the only feasible way they can increase appropriate throughput on the exam, a third testing site? Perhaps they will realize it's futile and stop putting off crunching the numbers on the logistics to acknowledge it?

Press X to doubt

 

[Neopolymath]

Also, here's a fun comparison:

Utility of medical students 100 years ago = graduate them early and let them rise to the occasion to mend the growing number of Ill patients even though they will be entering somewhat new roles.

Utility of medical students today = please take an extra fake patient encounter exam and rub fake tight muscles because we aren't sure if you guys are ready to do an H&P on bread and butter CHF, COPD, PNA, DKA patients despite doing it for two years. We just want to make sure you pass the least realistic version of patient encounters for intern year mmmkay.

 

[bigindian4891]

Also they spelled "examination" incorrectly on the survey. Is NBOME even a legit organization?

 

[aladdin11]

Hi guys,

Anyone have any official source of information (like a link from NBMEs website, or info from their deans) that shows the DO students can get licensed through Usmles and bypass Comlex Level II PE?

Was looking for concrete info to confirm this to pass on to school officials and classmates.

Thank you all

Still can’t really find anything. I feel like we need official statements more than just state requirements for licensing but idk

A concern I have is sure now you can take Step 3 without CS, but what about in like 12-18 months from now when the class of 2021 is in intern year getting ready to sit for step 3? If covid is over at that point won’t they just change back the step 3 requirements so that you have to have CS in order to take it?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Still can’t really find anything. I feel like we need official statements more than just state requirements for licensing but idk

A concern I have is sure now you can take Step 3 without CS, but what about in like 12-18 months from now when the class of 2021 is in intern year getting ready to sit for step 3? If covid is over at that point won’t they just change back the step 3 requirements so that you have to have CS in order to take it?

State law is state law. The NBME doesn’t make state law so they aren’t going to ever make a statement. Also the FSMB made a statement at their webinar with SOMA. Someone explicitly asked them this question and they said yes, a DO in those 43 states do not need COMLEX for licensure.

Class of 2021 will never have to take CS. They aren’t going to make all the interns take CS, as the PDs would collectively lose their minds.

 

[Prehealth1011]

Won't happen but if it does i'll take the CS and then step 3 just out of anger.

 

[Mochi2020]

State law is state law. The NBME doesn’t make state law so they aren’t going to ever make a statement. Also the FSMB made a statement at their webinar with SOMA. Someone explicitly asked them this question and they said yes, a DO in those 43 states do not need COMLEX for licensure.

Class of 2021 will never have to take CS. They aren’t going to make all the interns take CS, as the PDs would collectively lose their minds.

Well you never know...last update was those who pass step 3 before CS resumes do not need to take CS. So if CS returns in August, I would say majority of class of 2021 will have to take CS because most people don't take their step 3 by that time yet.

It would make sense if class of 2021 will never have to take CS right? But have you seen the decisions made by NBME/AAMC/USMLE/ACGME since COVID? Have any of those made sense? They decided to release step 2 CS on those with failed attempt despite the fact that the test is cancelled. Some with CS...some without CS...this match process besides other discrepancies brought by COVID...CS cancellation brought another discrepancy...which to me makes no sense.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Well you never know...last update was those who pass step 3 before CS resumes do not need to take CS. So if CS returns in August, I would say majority of class of 2021 will have to take CS because most people don't take their step 3 by that time yet.

It would make sense if class of 2021 will never have to take CS right? But have you seen the decisions made by NBME/AAMC/USMLE/ACGME since COVID? Have any of those made sense? They decided to release step 2 CS on those with failed attempt despite the fact that the test is cancelled. Some with CS...some without CS...this match process besides other discrepancies brought by COVID...CS cancellation brought another discrepancy...which to me makes no sense.

The big catch though is if they require 70% of INTERNS to take CS then they aren't just screwing over medical students, they are screwing over PDs, Department Chairs, and entire hospital systems by requiring them to give money and time for a significant chunk of their workforce to stop seeing real patients and go see some fake ones on a test that hasn't shown any validity. Every poor decision they've made so far really only hurts medical students. Screwing med students no one cares, but if you start messing with the powers that be then a lot of powerful people will start caring.