Addressing PE

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IT seems like we're all going to have to roll over and take this damn exam.
 
TheTeacher said:
IT seems like we're all going to have to roll over and take this damn exam.
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This is precisely the attitude that leads to no change. Never accept that reality, even if it comes to pass.
 
Does not having the PE affect our trainee license? I know it'll affect our full practice license. I'm curious because I really like my number one and will take PE if I have to, but I just don't want to panic trying to fit it into fourth year if it'll be hard to schedule
 
LECOM sent letters out to the class of 2021 officially waiving PE as a graduation requirement........but we still don't have word if NBOME will waive PE as a prerequisite to take Level 3. But if these new Covid strains mutate and the vaccine becomes ineffective I think there's a good chance PE will go bye-bye.
 
Oligodinero said:
LECOM sent letters out to the class of 2021 officially waiving PE as a graduation requirement........but we still don't have word if NBOME will waive PE as a prerequisite to take Level 3. But if these new Covid strains mutate and the vaccine becomes ineffective I think there's a good chance PE will go bye-bye.
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I think our class won’t have to take it. There is zero chance that they have the bandwidth to accommodate an entire class to catch up, and you can’t pull all residents for some BS test and end up failing some. Residencies will be livid. It just isn’t feasible
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
“Hi fake patient, I am student doctor but really PGY 5 AnatomyGrey12. Would you like me to do some OMM to fix your tennis elbow?”
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what's funniest to me is that I wouldn't mind *that* much except as time goes on my un-used OMM gets rustier and rustier. I would fear passing because of the OMM only at this point.
 
"Further updates on testing capacity and potential satellite testing opportunities will be released by the end of January 2021."

predictions? if they, by some divine intervention, chose to eliminate the PE as a requirement for Level 3, it would actually shift my rank list quite a bit.
 
qwertythrowaway said:
"Further updates on testing capacity and potential satellite testing opportunities will be released by the end of January 2021."

predictions?
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My prediction:

"Further updates on testing capacity and potential satellite testing opportunities will be released by the end of Februrary 2021."
 
Chibucks15 said:
I think our class won’t have to take it. There is zero chance that they have the bandwidth to accommodate an entire class to catch up, and you can’t pull all residents for some BS test and end up failing some. Residencies will be livid. It just isn’t feasible
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Sorry but everyone here is way too optimistic and giving the NBOME too much credit. These are the scumbags who canceled November testing dates in October of the Pandemic. Let that sink in. They fully intended for us to travel peak covid times to take their test. They don't give a sh** what residencies say. My predictions are they will continue with testing starting in April at three locations the new Fresno site in addition to the other two. No way they drop PE as a requirement for level 3 either. Gimpel is the incompetent *** who created this test and he is still CEO.
 
12jas said:
Sorry but everyone here is way too optimistic and giving the NBOME too much credit. These are the scumbags who canceled November testing dates in October of the Pandemic. Let that sink in. They fully intended for us to travel peak covid times to take their test. They don't give a sh** what residencies say. My predictions are they will continue with testing starting in April at three locations the new Fresno site in addition to the other two. No way they drop PE as a requirement for level 3 either. Gimpel is the incompetent *** who created this test and he is still CEO.
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I just don’t see them being able to stand up to public pressure again. COVID is not even remotely close to being under control, and can you imagine the blowback if they fail residents who have been seeing patients independently for 6 months? For some stupid test doctors used to not even have to take?

They will have to fail people to show that it’s a “valid” test, and when they do 7% or more of all interns will lose practice abilities. Residencies will shoot Gimpel themselves. He sure will try to have everyone take it but they will continue getting skewered in every concievsble way. I think worst we have to do is some virtual thing by graduation, because if they don’t get us by then I don’t see them getting us ever
 
www.listennotes.com

Episode 28: John Gimpel D.O. President and CEO of the NBOME

00:59:51 - Send us a text In today's episode, we welcome Dr. John Gimpel. Dr. Gimpel is the president and CEO of the National Board of Osteopathic Medical…
www.listennotes.com www.listennotes.com

listen around 44:15 mark. part of his rationale for having PGY-1s take the PE, and use vacation/time off to do so, is because we no longer "live" in the hospital as residents in generations prior did. that because we have "time off" during training, that we should be using it to take the PE. he also makes several mentions of 'misinformation' (i.e. bryan carmody). he has suuuuuch thin skin and obviously pores over the twitter comments. keep the pressure on.
 
qwertythrowaway said:
www.listennotes.com

Episode 28: John Gimpel D.O. President and CEO of the NBOME

00:59:51 - Send us a text In today's episode, we welcome Dr. John Gimpel. Dr. Gimpel is the president and CEO of the National Board of Osteopathic Medical…
www.listennotes.com www.listennotes.com

listen around 44:15 mark. part of his rationale for having PGY-1s take the PE, and use vacation/time off to do so, is because we no longer "live" in the hospital as residents in generations prior did. that because we have "time off" during training, that we should be using it to take the PE. he also makes several mentions of 'misinformation' (i.e. bryan carmody). he has suuuuuch thin skin and obviously pores over the twitter comments. keep the pressure on.
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Wow. This is possibly the worst rationalization he could have provided. Just gross.
 
qwertythrowaway said:
www.listennotes.com

Episode 28: John Gimpel D.O. President and CEO of the NBOME

00:59:51 - Send us a text In today's episode, we welcome Dr. John Gimpel. Dr. Gimpel is the president and CEO of the National Board of Osteopathic Medical…
www.listennotes.com www.listennotes.com

listen around 44:15 mark. part of his rationale for having PGY-1s take the PE, and use vacation/time off to do so, is because we no longer "live" in the hospital as residents in generations prior did. that because we have "time off" during training, that we should be using it to take the PE. he also makes several mentions of 'misinformation' (i.e. bryan carmody). he has suuuuuch thin skin and obviously pores over the twitter comments. keep the pressure on.
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I'm pretty certain he reads this thread based on his wording in some things. It isn't a coincidence when it has happened several times.
 
Neopolymath said:
I'm pretty certain he reads this thread based on his wording in some things. It isn't a coincidence when it has happened several times.
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I’d be curious to know if Disney allowed that ****ty podcast to use the likeness of one of their characters on a logo.
 
Okay so I just actually listened to before and after that part. He outlines the idea that we can make these sacrifices in order to take PE by early R2, and Level 3 by the end of R2. Bro, we will be kicked out of our residencies! They definitely require it to be done earlier. My number 1 wants Level 3 by December of R1, and the latest I’ve seen in Level 3 by December of R2.

I’m honestly feeling very panicked about something that is not my fault derailing my entire medical career.
 
sunshinefl said:
Okay so I just actually listened to before and after that part. He outlines the idea that we can make these sacrifices in order to take PE by early R2, and Level 3 by the end of R2. Bro, we will be kicked out of our residencies! They definitely require it to be done earlier. My number 1 wants Level 3 by December of R1, and the latest I’ve seen in Level 3 by December of R2.

I’m honestly feeling very panicked about something that is not my fault derailing my entire medical career.
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Let's just play the game and suppose that PE were to be waived for the Class of 2021 (or whichever class), what would that even look like?

As in, not just the more immediate implications of taking Level 3, but beyond? Would state legislatures need to change licensing requirements? Or would there be some sort of temporary exemption for us? At times I feel like I'm the only one thinking beyond 1-2 years about this.

Edit: and for the record, I'm all for the abolishment of PE.

TL; DR: Who/which organization is responsible for saying "you do not need PE in order to be a practicing physician in this country"? Is it the NBOME? The state legislatures?
 
morningmedicine said:
Let's just play the game and suppose that PE were to be waived for the Class of 2021 (or whichever class), what would that even look like?

As in, not just the more immediate implications of taking Level 3, but beyond? Would state legislatures need to change licensing requirements? Or would there be some sort of temporary exemption for us? At times I feel like I'm the only one thinking beyond 1-2 years about this.

Edit: and for the record, I'm all for the abolishment of PE.
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Well, since PE doesn’t have availability and takes 3 months to get back, yes changing it as a requirement for Level 3 would make a huge difference to me. Even if I still have to take it eventually. Just having the flexibility of taking them in a different order would be life changing.
 
sunshinefl said:
Well, since PE doesn’t have availability and takes 3 months to get back, yes changing it as a requirement for Level 3 would make a huge difference to me. Even if I still have to take it eventually.
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For sure. But let's say that NBOME waives the PE requirement for taking Level 3, and you're able to therefore take Level 3. But you never are able to take the PE (due to COVID, residency schedule, or if it's "waived" altogether for our class). Would states still technically require it?
 
Chibucks15 said:
I just don’t see them being able to stand up to public pressure again. COVID is not even remotely close to being under control, and can you imagine the blowback if they fail residents who have been seeing patients independently for 6 months? For some stupid test doctors used to not even have to take?

They will have to fail people to show that it’s a “valid” test, and when they do 7% or more of all interns will lose practice abilities. Residencies will shoot Gimpel themselves. He sure will try to have everyone take it but they will continue getting skewered in every concievsble way. I think worst we have to do is some virtual thing by graduation, because if they don’t get us by then I don’t see them getting us ever
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I would love for you to be correct but the unfortunate truth is the public doesn't care about us. Our very own medical community/schools barely lifted a finger for us the first go around fighting the NBOME and failing the PE wouldn't stop a resident from seeing patients it would only mean they would need to retake it and pass rates second go are very high. The NBOME has already proven they don't care what people think about them so long as they are getting paid. They already know students hate them and unfortunately the people in high positions of our other organizations (like the AOA) are in on the action at the NBOME. COCA, AOA, NBOME they are all the same people pimping us out for their own gain.
 
morningmedicine said:
For sure. But let's say that NBOME waives the PE requirement for taking Level 3, and you're able to therefore take Level 3. But you never are able to take the PE (due to COVID, residency schedule, or if it's "waived" altogether for our class). Would states still technically require it?
Click to expand...
Some states would, unfortunately, the PE component is directly mentioned in their licensing laws. While for others they only mention "completion of the comlex series" whatever that means.
 
morningmedicine said:
Let's just play the game and suppose that PE were to be waived for the Class of 2021 (or whichever class), what would that even look like?

As in, not just the more immediate implications of taking Level 3, but beyond? Would state legislatures need to change licensing requirements? Or would there be some sort of temporary exemption for us? At times I feel like I'm the only one thinking beyond 1-2 years about this.

Edit: and for the record, I'm all for the abolishment of PE.

TL; DR: Who/which organization is responsible for saying "you do not need PE in order to be a practicing physician in this country"? Is it the NBOME? The state legislatures?
Click to expand...

morningmedicine said:
For sure. But let's say that NBOME waives the PE requirement for taking Level 3, and you're able to therefore take Level 3. But you never are able to take the PE (due to COVID, residency schedule, or if it's "waived" altogether for our class). Would states still technically require it?
Click to expand...

12jas said:
Some states would, unfortunately, the PE component is directly mentioned in their licensing laws. While for others they only mention "completion of the comlex series" whatever that means.
Click to expand...
That doesn't matter. State's that state they require CS have already made exceptions for MD's that pass Step 3 but don't take CS. It will be the same for DO's. If the NBOME waives the PE requirement the states will no longer require it for licensure.
 
morningmedicine said:
For sure. But let's say that NBOME waives the PE requirement for taking Level 3, and you're able to therefore take Level 3. But you never are able to take the PE (due to COVID, residency schedule, or if it's "waived" altogether for our class). Would states still technically require it?
Click to expand...
It would depend on the state, and even then it’s not crystal clear.
12jas said:
Some states would, unfortunately, the PE component is directly mentioned in their licensing laws. While for others they only mention "completion of the comlex series" whatever that means.
Click to expand...
Exactly. I’m in Florida and this is what it says for full licensure requirements:

“Examination Requirements and Information:

Anyone applying for licensure must have passed all three parts of the examination conducted by the National Board of Osteopathic Medical Examiners (NBOME) or other substantially similar examination approved by the board.”
 
morningmedicine said:
Let's just play the game and suppose that PE were to be waived for the Class of 2021 (or whichever class), what would that even look like?

As in, not just the more immediate implications of taking Level 3, but beyond? Would state legislatures need to change licensing requirements? Or would there be some sort of temporary exemption for us? At times I feel like I'm the only one thinking beyond 1-2 years about this.

Edit: and for the record, I'm all for the abolishment of PE.

TL; DR: Who/which organization is responsible for saying "you do not need PE in order to be a practicing physician in this country"? Is it the NBOME? The state legislatures?
Click to expand...
If you knew how the wording of state licensure worked you likely wouldn't be asking this question. It's been discussed on here for many, many years. PE was backdoored into requirements by making it a requirement to sit for level 3 precisely because state licensing boards generally have language that doesn't necessitate PE or CS... The language of essentially all states besides PA never actually say anything about a clinical skills exam explicitly. The same reason PE was so easily added by indirectly requiring it without expliciting changing state licensing board language for all these states is the exact same reason the exam could be disregarded just as easily.
 
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qwertythrowaway said:
www.listennotes.com

Episode 28: John Gimpel D.O. President and CEO of the NBOME

00:59:51 - Send us a text In today's episode, we welcome Dr. John Gimpel. Dr. Gimpel is the president and CEO of the National Board of Osteopathic Medical…
www.listennotes.com www.listennotes.com

listen around 44:15 mark. part of his rationale for having PGY-1s take the PE, and use vacation/time off to do so, is because we no longer "live" in the hospital as residents in generations prior did. that because we have "time off" during training, that we should be using it to take the PE. he also makes several mentions of 'misinformation' (i.e. bryan carmody). he has suuuuuch thin skin and obviously pores over the twitter comments. keep the pressure on.
Click to expand...
i wonder if they are making any attempts to get the SPs vaccinated. or tracking vaccination status of examinees. for an exam that touts itself as being so safe, they sure do have a lot of loop holes.

also - don't most programs require us to have our unrestricted license (only granted after completion of the series) by end of PGY-1? his logic is so azzbackwards
 
sunshinefl said:
It would depend on the state, and even then it’s not crystal clear.

Exactly. I’m in Florida and this is what it says for full licensure requirements:

“Examination Requirements and Information:

Anyone applying for licensure must have passed all three parts of the examination conducted by the National Board of Osteopathic Medical Examiners (NBOME) or other substantially similar examination approved by the board.”
Click to expand...
Level 1, Level 2, and Level 3. If PE is waived for our class by the NBOME then all you need is Level 2 CE to pass Level 2.....

It's not that complicated.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Level 1, Level 2, and Level 3. If PE is waived for our class by the NBOME then all you need is Level 2 CE to pass Level 2.....

It's not that complicated.
Click to expand...
Hell "substantially similar examination approved by the board" is the part that gets me every time we talk about this. It's like they are soooo close to getting it and yet so far away lol. Usmle will suffice. Thanks.
 
Neopolymath said:
Hell "substantially similar examination approved by the board" is the part that gets me every time we talk about this. It's like they are soooo close to getting it and yet so far away lol. Usmle will suffice. Thanks.
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Yeah can we stop pretending that we need an exam with some random OMM findings thrown into the question stems that are irrelevant to the question is required to test DOs?

The reality is that I truly believe the entire DO leadership sees the writing on the wall and knows that the DO world as it used to exist is disappearing and they are trying to fight it as long as they can.
 
Neopolymath said:
Hell "substantially similar examination approved by the board" is the part that gets me every time we talk about this. It's like they are soooo close to getting it and yet so far away lol. Usmle will suffice. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Well this is what comes after that part:

“If you have not taken and passed all three parts of the exam offered by the NBOME, you must demonstrate to the Board that the exam you did pass is substantially similar to all three parts of the NBOME. The board does not consider the FLEX or USMLE exams to be substantially similar to the NBOME as neither of these exams has an osteopathic component or osteopathic philosophies generally incorporated into the questions.”
 
sunshinefl said:
Well this is what comes after that part:

“If you have not taken and passed all three parts of the exam offered by the NBOME, you must demonstrate to the Board that the exam you did pass is substantially similar to all three parts of the NBOME. The board does not consider the FLEX or USMLE exams to be substantially similar to the NBOME as neither of these exams has an osteopathic component or osteopathic philosophies generally incorporated into the questions.”
Click to expand...
I'm unfortunately aware. Scientific progress requires funerals. I think Planck said that and some people are going to get offended by me saying it but I really don't GAF.
 
Neopolymath said:
I'm unfortunately aware. Scientific progress requires funerals. I think Planck said that and some people are going to get offended by me saying it but I really don't GAF.
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure someone at the AOA literally told SOMA this when they gave them their resolution calling for the end of COMLEX. The old guard in power will literally need to die before they can move forward with the reality that the DO pathway honestly shouldn't really exist anymore and should be incorporated into the MD world as schools that heavily emphasize creating community and rural physicians.

It's going to be a slow process, but I don't think there is any other outcome at this point. The residency merger was just the first step in a slow march to complete unification of the pathways.
 
sunshinefl said:
Okay so I just actually listened to before and after that part. He outlines the idea that we can make these sacrifices in order to take PE by early R2, and Level 3 by the end of R2. Bro, we will be kicked out of our residencies! They definitely require it to be done earlier. My number 1 wants Level 3 by December of R1, and the latest I’ve seen in Level 3 by December of R2.

I’m honestly feeling very panicked about something that is not my fault derailing my entire medical career.
Click to expand...

You should be panicked. Do something about it! I don’t know what, but do something!
 
Part of the issue is people stop caring once they graduate and pass all three LOLclex exams. You have to push hard on them after you graduate.

I still remember the several thousand they’ve got from me. And I will not forget. And all the OMM lol
 
cbc86 said:
Everyone in this thread should take the time to understand licensing requirements. There is no excuse for ignorance in this matter. The NBOME relies on such ignorance to continue operating in the fashion it does.
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I literally already posted the licensing requirements from my state.
 
Neopolymath said:
If you knew how the wording of state licensure worked you likely wouldn't be asking this question. It's been discussed on here for many, many years. PE was backdoored into requirements by making it a requirement to sit for level 3 precisely because state licensing boards generally have language that doesn't necessitate PE or CS... The language of essentially all states besides PA never actually say anything about a clinical skills exam explicitly. The same reason PE was so easily added by indirectly requiring it without expliciting changing state licensing board language for all these states is the exact same reason the exam could be disregarded just as easily.
Click to expand...
I've been following and contributing to this thread from the beginning, and I'm asking the question because I haven't received a satisfactory answer to it thus far. I understand how PE came about, and how it was back-doored (as merely a part II, so to speak). My understanding that this recent thread chatter has been focused on eligibility to sit for Level 3 and completing the USMLE series as opposed to COMLEX. My question is apart from those two.

"The same reason PE was so easily added by indirectly requiring it without expliciting changing state licensing board language for all these states is the exact same reason the exam could be disregarded just as easily." You're suggesting that the ambiguity in wording leaves the door open to not needing the PE for licensure--perhaps it's that simple, but I can't say that for sure. So unless you're operating with information that I'm not privy to, my question still stands.
 
morningmedicine said:
I've been following and contributing to this thread from the beginning, and I'm asking the question because I haven't received a satisfactory answer to it thus far. I understand how PE came about, and how it was back-doored (as merely a part II, so to speak). My understanding that this recent thread chatter has been focused on eligibility to sit for Level 3 and completing the USMLE series as opposed to COMLEX. My question is apart from those two.

"The same reason PE was so easily added by indirectly requiring it without expliciting changing state licensing board language for all these states is the exact same reason the exam could be disregarded just as easily." You're suggesting that the ambiguity in wording leaves the door open to not needing the PE for licensure--perhaps it's that simple, but I can't say that for sure. So unless you're operating with information that I'm not privy to, my question still stands.
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I re-read your post and am now even more confused by the question you are asking as someone "following from the beginning" frankly.

1. "Let's just play the game and suppose that PE were to be waived for the Class of 2021 (or whichever class), what would that even look like?"

Seem pretty obvious and has been discussed long before this particular thread was created as I said previously. The NBOME waives the requirement and then trainees take Level 3. They have completed the full series to satisfy state licensing boards' language. It's the full series because PE doesn't exist for 21... There is not a board that will say it is not enough because these same boards entrust the NBOME with creating the whole exam criteria in the first place. If the NBOME says they get a pass then they do. There isn't a world where a rogue state board says "No! They need PE. We know we entrusted you guys to determine what exams are needed to be finished with general medical exams but we changed our mind" The applicant with the backing of the NBOME cancelling it says that it is waived and therefore unnecessary and not possible. That's a strange scenario to begin with. Historically, state boards go with what the NBME and NBOME decide generally because it takes a long time to change things at the state level ....

2. "As in, not just the more immediate implications of taking Level 3, but beyond? Would state legislatures need to change licensing requirements? Or would there be some sort of temporary exemption for us?"

As said before, this has been discussed in the thread over and over. Read the damn licensing requirements yourself since you don't believe me (and apparently anyone else in the thread.) That's perfectly fine if you don't. Trust but verify as always in life. If it is canceled for us and not postponed then clearly there would be a permanent exemption. There wouldn't really be another alternative. It's semantics but I didn't pick the words here.

3. "Who/which organization is responsible for saying "you do not need PE in order to be a practicing physician in this country"? Is it the NBOME? The state legislatures?"

And here we are for the 10th time...

Perhaps you can rephrase your question and make it specific so someone else can help you since you just pretended that I didn't explain the situation lol. I can't help you if you arbitrarily decide that plain English in state licensing rules isn't something I can possibly understand. Go read them yourself and explain your point so we can understand what you see that NO ONE in the whole thread ever understood or even thought of besides you!!!

Edit: or for trainees in states that allow it, skip PE and Level 3 and take Step 3 before CS comes back online and assuming they already completed Step 1 and 2 CK.... Which drumroll please.. can be verified in the state licensing rules yourself since you didn't see it while reading this whole thread talking about it apparently?
 
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morningmedicine said:
but I can't say that for sure. So unless you're operating with information that I'm not privy to, my question still stands.
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Read the actual laws. Your question has been answered multiple times. PE is only explicitly mentioned by a few states, and this exact situation has been circumvented with CS.

Outside of those states, if they only mention passing the different levels of the board exam series, I.e Levels 1, 2, and 3. If PE is waived then it is no longer considered part of the series and Level 2 is only made up of Level 2 CE.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Read the actual laws. Your question has been answered multiple times. PE is only explicitly mentioned by a few states, and this exact situation has been circumvented with CS.

Outside of those states, if they only mention passing the different levels of the board exam series, I.e Levels 1, 2, and 3. If PE is waived then it is no longer considered part of the series and Level 2 is only made up of Level 2 CE.
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YOU CAN'T SAY THAT FOR SURE.

/s lol
 
Preference will be given to DO applicants that have passed their PE? given they have similar application to the DO's that have not taken it? some PDs might be thinking why take the risk of them failing over some one who has passed the PE? any of you worried about this?
 
MDMechEngr said:
Preference will be given to DO applicants that have passed their PE? given they have similar application to the DO's that have not taken it? some PDs might be thinking why take the risk of them failing over some one who has passed the PE? any of you worried about this?
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I asked the PC at the programs I interviewed with if I was eligible for rank given I never had the chance to take it. Everyone said yes. Only 1 said “only for class of 2021” which I guess would effect prior grad FMGs who hadn’t taken CS yet. That was the extent of my worry.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
That doesn't matter. State's that state they require CS have already made exceptions for MD's that pass Step 3 but don't take CS. It will be the same for DO's. If the NBOME waives the PE requirement the states will no longer require it for licensure.
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Licensing boards have the final say in some states, and that's where it gets dicey
 
Mad Jack said:
Licensing boards have the final say in some states, and that's where it gets dicey
Click to expand...
Yes, but like I said those states have already made exceptions for MDs and CS. The FSMB was very clear when CS was suspended they were working with those states to create an exception. Those same licensing boards are not going to turn around and force people in class of 2021 to take PE if the NBOME waives it as a requirement.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Yes, but like I said those states have already made exceptions for MDs and CS. The FSMB was very clear when CS was suspended they were working with those states to create an exception. Those same licensing boards are not going to turn around and force people in class of 2021 to take PE if the NBOME waives it as a requirement.
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A lot of states have separate osteopathic boards
 
Mad Jack said:
A lot of states have separate osteopathic boards
Click to expand...
14 states have osteopathic boards. 7 require passage of the COMLEX series. The FSMB is the organization that works with all of them, and the FSMB said it wouldn't be an issue for MDs, so why would it be an issue for DOs? In case you haven't noticed these DO organizations are all essentially extensions of each other. If the NBOME waives a requirement the DO board is not going to start forcing people to take PE.
 
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