Addressing PE

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bradrutter said:
I personally would not put much faith in her influence since she seems close the AOA vice president who will always side with the NBOME.
I sure she really feels for us, but she can not risk damaging her reputations with the higher ups.
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Eh I dunno. The Oklahoma Osteopathic Association is pretty buddy buddy with the AOA and they wrote that above letter to them directly asking for the NBOME to not do what they are doing.

You know it's bad when some of the most "DO's are better than MD's" crowd is telling you that you are wrong lol
 
Other people can chime in. This was my jist:

- They addressed the interest in having one unified medical licensing exam for both DOs and MDs. The USMLE is very open to this, especially since so many DO students already take the USMLE anyways. It sounds like they have approached the NBOME, and reading between the lines, it seems the NBOME is not as open to this (for rea$on$ you may gue$$).

- The rep from FSMB confirmed that no state formally requires a student pass a clinical skills exam for licensure. that's why they were able to allow students to sit for Step 3 without passing Step 2 CS. However, they cannot change the NBOME/USMLE series (meaning they can't force the NBOME to allow students to sit for Level 3 without the PE.) It does sound like if the NBOME opted to go to the same route as the USMLE, the federal state licensing boards would be amenable. They don't want to hold up our training any more than we do.

- There are 14 state osteopathic medical boards (in the same states where we have US DO schools). those states can make the decision on a case by case base regarding licensing. 7 of them (incl PA and FL) require DO Graduates to complete the Comlex series to receive a license.

- they are extremely concerned with equity and fairness. They addressed the decision to make Step 1 P/F, to suspend Step 2 CS for 12-18 months, to expand Step 1/2 regional testing at medical schools, the experimental items on tests.

-They have not yet decided how to handle ERAS score reporting for US MD students who failed Step 2 CS pre-covid and will not be able to retake the test for at least 1 year. Obviously there are FMGs who took CS and want the score on the transcript...and there's the issue of those who failed. They have not reached a final decision. *Note - they did not deny that they have the power to adjust the transcripts and are considering it. The NBOME made a statement in their FAQ that they can't do this.

TLDR; not much "new" info if you were already aware of the licensing nuances. I found both the USMLE and FSMB representatives very humble and transparent. I would 100% rather give them my $$ than the NBOME.
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
Eh I dunno. The Oklahoma Osteopathic Association is pretty buddy buddy with the AOA and they wrote that above letter to them directly asking for the NBOME to not do what they are doing.

You know it's bad when some of the most "DO's are better than MD's" crowd is telling you that you are wrong lol
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I did not know that (I don't really pay attention to other DO schools). Sorry! You restored some faith!
 
qwertythrowaway said:
- The rep from FSMB confirmed that no state formally requires a student pass a clinical skills exam for licensure. that's why they were able to allow students to sit for Step 3 without passing Step 2 CS. However, they cannot change the NBOME/USMLE series (meaning they can't force the NBOME to allow students to sit for Level 3 without the PE.) It does sound like if the NBOME opted to go to the same route as the USMLE, the federal state licensing boards would be amenable. They don't want to hold up our training any more than we do.
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Weird, could have sworn the NBOME has said the exact opposite several times.

In fact, here's a direct quote "COMLEX-USA Level 2-PE will still need to be completed for full licensure and is considered a necessary and ongoing requirement for the licensure of osteopathic physicians in all 50 states "

Now I wonder who would lie to us about this, the federation of state medical boards or the people who's sizeable paycheck depends on us taking the PE?
 
I hope they put it up on Youtube or something, I couldn't watch it all
 
Scrubs101 said:
Weird, could have sworn the NBOME has said the exact opposite several times.

In fact, here's a direct quote "COMLEX-USA Level 2-PE will still need to be completed for full licensure and is considered a necessary and ongoing requirement for the licensure of osteopathic physicians in all 50 states "

Now I wonder who would lie to us about this, the federation of state medical boards or the people who's sizeable paycheck depends on us taking the PE?
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Seriously though lol. The people in charge of licensing literally just said it isn't a specific licensing requirement.

Part of me wonders if the NBOME simply can't survive the monetary blow that cancelling PE would entail and that's why they are refusing to consider waiving it for 2021.
 
Scrubs101 said:
Weird, could have sworn the NBOME has said the exact opposite several times.

In fact, here's a direct quote "COMLEX-USA Level 2-PE will still need to be completed for full licensure and is considered a necessary and ongoing requirement for the licensure of osteopathic physicians in all 50 states "

Now I wonder who would lie to us about this, the federation of state medical boards or the people who's sizeable paycheck depends on us taking the PE?
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Keeping it vague, COMLEX style. So we don't figure it out.

Honestly i feel like i'm in a Caribbean school. My school just happens to be in the USA.
 
Scrubs101 said:
Weird, could have sworn the NBOME has said the exact opposite several times.

In fact, here's a direct quote "COMLEX-USA Level 2-PE will still need to be completed for full licensure and is considered a necessary and ongoing requirement for the licensure of osteopathic physicians in all 50 states "

Now I wonder who would lie to us about this, the federation of state medical boards or the people who's sizeable paycheck depends on us taking the PE?
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I think it's just a play of words, "FULL licensure of osteopathic physicians" what does FULL mean? It implies there is an alternative to full...is there such a thing as Partial licensure? of course not. They probably mean the physician being able to fully be considered part of the osteopathic associations (like osteopathic family physicians, AOA member, etc), though alternative could be being instead part of AAFP, etc . This is just my guess though, I would love to know the actual, LEGAL standing on this matter.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Lol yeah instead the NBOME posts condescending FAQs doubling down on their *****ic decisions. Supposedly SOMA has a national resolution they are voting on this fall about advocating for a unified licensing exam process.
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tbh there's a decent chunk of DO students who prob wouldn't be able to pass this. as we know, step is harder than comlex.
if the NBOME were smart, they would be doing whatever they can to get the class of 2021 out the door and into residency. anatomy grey is right - they are making the PE the hill they die on.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Lol yeah instead the NBOME posts condescending FAQs doubling down on their *****ic decisions. Supposedly SOMA has a national resolution they are voting on this fall about advocating for a unified licensing exam process.
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That and the NBOME lies in publications about laws that anyone can look up to see they aren't telling the truth.

If we truly are going to have a second wave anyways then I will be so happy for NBOME to go bankrupt due to it. If they have to cancel PE due to second wave and then can't get the 2022 class scheduled they are done. So awesome.
 
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The sad thing is that gimpel easily could’ve avoided this if he swallowed his pride, decided to take the hit for the class of 2021 and then went back to usual for next years class. Now because of his (and I’m sure others at the NBOME) vanity they’re flirting with disaster


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RamsFan&FutureDO said:
The sad thing is that gimpel easily could’ve avoided this if he swallowed his pride, decided to take the hit for the class of 2021 and then went back to usual for next years class. Now because of his (and I’m sure others at the NBOME) vanity they’re flirting with disaster


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There are SO MANY better ways they could have handled this... its like they have just been sitting on their hands for the last few months hoping for the best. From a business stand point, this institution needs better leadership. It almost seems like there is some kind of internal strife present within the board or something. It just makes no sense.
 
cbc86 said:
There are SO MANY better ways they could have handled this... its like they have just been sitting on their hands for the last few months hoping for the best. From a business stand point, this institution needs better leadership. It almost seems like there is some kind of internal strife present within the board or something. It just makes no sense.
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I actually messaged a DO who has been practicing for 40 years and part of the AOA and POMA. When I explained our situation and inquired about these organizations, he stated "My experience with these osteopathic organizations is that they tend to be clueless until the last minute."
 
jkdoctor said:
Excellent post imo. I think a pretty large number of DO students (who have taken Step 1 and Step 2 CK) will skip the PE next year and take USMLE Step 3 instead to get a license. Also, it is going to be quite a while before they restart CS. They have closed the CSEC test centers and laid off almost 700 people. I think this means they will either be going to a virtual exam or they will have extensive retraining and hiring to do or (best case) they will kill the useless exam permanently.
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At this NBME webinar they actually were pretty open about the fact they have absolutely no clue what to do about CS. Basically stated they don’t think a virtual option will be possible, “likely won’t gave the rigor or discernment required of a standardized licensure examination.” *or something like that.

It was very interesting. Made me wonder if they are already talking about scrapping it all together
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
At this NBME webinar they actually were pretty open about the fact they have absolutely no clue what to do about CS. Basically stated they don’t think a virtual option will be possible, “likely won’t gave the rigor or discernment required of a standardized licensure examination.” *or something like that.

It was very interesting. Made me wonder if they are already talking about scrapping it all together
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I got the same impression.

I just re-read the letter you posted from the oklahoma osteo association to the NBOME. OK is currently one of the 7 hold-out states. They don't have the power to lift the Level 2 PE as a requirement for Level 3, but they do have the ability to accept the USMLE series for licensure. If the PE is not suspended or offered at regional testing sites (as they very reasonably requested), I will be interested to see if they make that change. That would be a big domino to fall.
 
Where is that Oklahoma Osteopathic Association letter, i cannot find it.
 
If there is a second wave in the fall I think state legislatures in the 7 hold out states could be swayed to change the laws. It certainly wouldn't look good politically if a large group of future physicians are going to be unable to practice in your state because of an antiquated law that requires them to pass an inferior licensing exam.
 
jkdoctor said:
I think the wording of the Oklahoma Osteopathic Medical board rules are not crystal clear.
View attachment 309757


Section (a) candidates for licensure must be examined by a vehicle which tests the individual's basic osteopathic knowledge and skill embracing the same philosophy as that in which the candidate was educated.

Section (d) successful completion of the examination sequence of the National Board of Osteopathic Medical Examiners or the National Board of Medical Examiners.

Imo section a and d are not consistent with each other today and were not consistent with each other on the effective date of 6-27-94.
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very interesting. i used the above link as my source (which includes summaries, but not direct legal quotes). i agree with your interpretation

fyi - only one state (California) specifically states that the Level 2 PE must be passed for licensure. So far that is the only state I've found that stipulates passage of a clinical skills test for licensure.
 

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cbc86 said:
We need a lawyer.
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This. Is there no way we can get a lawyer to jump on a class-action lawsuit or something similar? I think if the virus hasn't gone away yet and the only other comparable entity (NBME) has cancelled for fear of unnecessary spread, then we may have a shot at suing for undue harm or extortion or something.
 
StudentDr.A said:
I agree. After the email reply I received from Dr. Gimpel two things became clear 1. He will attempt to silence anyone who gets in his way and 2. He has no intention of postponing the test regardless of student safety or concerns.
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What did he say that made you think number 1?
 
Maybe NBOME is affraid of mal practice law suites more?
 
TheDelOperator said:
Maybe NBOME is affraid of mal practice law suites more?
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But like a standardized patient is not real medicine...at all. Pretty sure residency actually teaches you how to practice medicine not some scripted, fake patient exam with a 95+% pass rate. If the NBME can waive CS for the class of 2021 there's NO reason, other than money and ego, PE can't be waived by the NBOME
 
Noisewater-TDX said:
What did he say that made you think number 1?
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He ‘cc’d my dean in his reply calling me “disrespectful” and “unprofessional” among a few things. The email that I sent was in no way unprofessional and was carefully drafted to be respectful but get my point across. He was in the wrong and the school is handling it. His reply email was full of very hateful and unprofessional sentiments but it is what it is.
 
StudentDr.A said:
He ‘cc’d my dean in his reply calling me “disrespectful” and “unprofessional” among a few things. The email that I sent was in no way unprofessional and was carefully drafted to be respectful but get my point across. He was in the wrong and the school is handling it. His reply email was full of very hateful and unprofessional sentiments but it is what it is.
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post it
 
StudentDr.A said:
He ‘cc’d my dean in his reply calling me “disrespectful” and “unprofessional” among a few things. The email that I sent was in no way unprofessional and was carefully drafted to be respectful but get my point across. He was in the wrong and the school is handling it. His reply email was full of very hateful and unprofessional sentiments but it is what it is.
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Oh please please post it. Or a summary of it
 
Osworld said:
post it
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I do not feel comfortable posting as the letter could be traced back to me and I already fear retribution which is why the school is handling it from here. Sorry I can’t offer more, I wish I could because the whole ordeal is not what I would want to be dealing with at the moment, yet here I am.
 
StudentDr.A said:
I do not feel comfortable posting as the letter could be traced back to me and I already fear retribution which is why the school is handling it from here. Sorry I can’t offer more, I wish I could because the whole ordeal is not what I would want to be dealing with at the moment, yet here I am.
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I can say with near certainty that Gimpel visits this forum regularly. I would not be suprised at all if he checks this particular thread every day.
 
cbc86 said:
I can say with near certainty that Gimpel visits this forum regularly. I would not be suprised at all if he checks this particular thread every day.
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In which case, if you're reading this PLEASE do the right thing and cancel the exam for our class. We're all in a position that none of us could've foreseen and all of us would've paid and taken the test in a NORMAL year. This year is not normal and for the sake of our physical and mental health (which I don't think can be dismissed as I've personally aged 5 years in the last 3 months with all the uncertainty and stress) and that of our communities take the financial hit and continue on administering PE exams for the class of 2022 and beyond. I'm not even on the whole cancel it forever train, just don't screw over an entire class of DOs who don't deserve to walk into the match process at any more of a disadvantage than we're already in. Remember back when you were a student and all the times you wished your admin or the even the NBOME would've been accommodating and please do the same.
 
cbc86 said:
I can say with near certainty that Gimpel visits this forum regularly. I would not be suprised at all if he checks this particular thread every day.
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I sure hope not. BUT IF HE IS - there are so many ways out of this Dr. Gimpel. The longer you wait, the more opportunity for the USMLE, NBME, and FSMBs to step in our behalf and find a way to license us. EVERYONE is willing to work with you, but some concessions must be made.

Here are your options:
1. suspend the test 12-18 months and remove it as a pre-req for Level 3 for the class of 2021 and 2022.
2. blind the results on ERAS so at least you aren't screwing 75% of us this match cycle.
3. do nothing and watch the NBME, USMLE, FSMB step in on our behalf and find alternate ways for us to complete our licensure.

idk about everyone else but my money is on #3
 
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qwertythrowaway said:
I sure hope not. BUT IF HE IS - there are so many ways out of this Dr. Gimpel. The longer you wait, the more opportunity for the USMLE, NBME, and FSMBs to step in our behalf and find a way to license us. EVERYONE is willing to work with you, but some concessions must be made.

Here are your options:
1. suspend the test 12-18 months and remove it as a pre-req for Level 3 for the class of 2021 and 2022.
2. blind the results on ERAS so at least you aren't screwing 75% of us this match cycle.
3. do nothing and watch the NBME, USMLE, FSMB step in on our behalf and find alternate ways for us to complete our licensure.

idk about everyone else but my money is on #3
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My money is on only the first part of option three: They do nothing, and nothing happens, and some people are ****ed.
 
At the very least least for you DO students Level 2 PE is no longer a graduation requirement. For Podiatry students they made no concessions and our clinical exam is still on from August 18, 2020 - November 10, 2020. They didn’t even delay it.
 
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