Addressing PE

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Neurality said:
Before this, the advisors at my COM were staunchly supporting keeping any scheduled fall PE date, saying there is no consensus how it will affect residency positioning...I called BS, but at least now my hand was forced lol
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where was this posted? was this in an email or on their site?
 
This is so incredibly frustrating. I also was in the group that just got booted this morning... I'm taking it three weeks before I graduate in May 2021 when my original date was in APRIL 2020.

I just don't know how they expect to fit ANOTHER two months of cancelled exams into an already crunched time frame. The class of 2022 aren't going to get a spot any earlier than June/July now. Thats unacceptable.
 
Do they realize how stressful it is for us to just keep canceling month by month saying “we are sure to start on x date” and then delay another month.


F O L L O W THE NBME AND CANCEL FOR 12-18months jesus, its blatantly obvious they wont be able to test our whole class and the class below us. This is just plain insanely stupid.
 
12jas said:
The NBOME will not be backing down. Gimpel is incompetent the only solution I see is for outside organizations to shut them down. But if we look at the AOA meeting a week ago they gave him an award. Our very own COSGP won't even advocate for us. It seems all we can do is wait until one of us gets sick.
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The AOA is soon to be irrelevant anyways. They can keep patting each other on the back. Ill be popping bottles when the AOA and NBOME cease to exist.

edit: @ COCA too, but im less confident theyll be gone anytime soon
 
Scrubs101 said:
The AOA is soon to be irrelevant anyways. They can keep patting each other on the back. Ill be popping bottles when the AOA and NBOME cease to exist.

edit: @ COCA too, but im less confident theyll be gone anytime soon
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serious question - why is it so important to report the scores for ERAS this cycle? why is 'blinding the scores'/not including them on the ERAS transcript so controversial?

I understand why the NBME refuses to retroactively convert scored Step 1's to Pass/Fail, but I don't understand why simply not reporting scores is so controversial or how it violates ERAS guidelines.
 
qwertythrowaway said:
serious question - why is it so important to report the scores for ERAS this cycle? why is 'blinding the scores'/not including them on the ERAS transcript so controversial?

I understand why the NBME refuses to retroactively convert scored Step 1's to Pass/Fail, but I don't understand why simply not reporting scores is so controversial or how it violates ERAS guidelines.
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My guess is because they feel the people that have already failed deserve to be punished for doing so because they believe their exam actually holds weight and should be a deciding factor in residency selection. But thats just my guess on how they feel.

That argument all kinda falls apart when a significant amount of applicants dont even have scores. But idk, could also be that waiving them would prove that the exam isnt needed in the future and they dont want to admit that.
 
qwertythrowaway said:
serious question - why is it so important to report the scores for ERAS this cycle? why is 'blinding the scores'/not including them on the ERAS transcript so controversial?

I understand why the NBME refuses to retroactively convert scored Step 1's to Pass/Fail, but I don't understand why simply not reporting scores is so controversial or how it violates ERAS guidelines.
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My guess is that it starts a slippery slope of removing the test all together and invalidates the need for it. Also, I wonder if they're afraid of the stink from the students who already took the exam, but now it gets blinded?
 
popopopop said:
My guess is that it starts a slippery slope of removing the test all together and invalidates the need for it. Also, I wonder if they're afraid of the stink from the students who already took the exam, but now it gets blinded?
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In every walk of life there are people with the "It's not fair because I had to do it and now you don't" attitude. It just happens to be that medicine is filled to the damn brim with these people. Imagine using that logic as an individual. It's conceptually saying that progress in the world can NEVER be allowed out of misguided "fairness" and it's wild.
 
Scrubs101 said:
My guess is because they feel the people that have already failed deserve to be punished for doing so because they believe their exam actually holds weight and should be a deciding factor in residency selection. But thats just my guess on how they feel.

That argument all kinda falls apart when a significant amount of applicants dont even have scores. But idk, could also be that waiving them would prove that the exam isnt needed in the future and they dont want to admit that.
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I suspect the same. An incredibly punitive way of approaching this.

Ironic considering DO schools are known for rewarding redemption...i.e. accepting students w/ red flags who overcame them. But once they're in, let's screw them over to prove a point.
 
I’m scheduled for an early November date. Do I bother smelling the roses and just push my date to May/June 2021 right now (which I was already contemplating because my school waived PE for graduation)? Because if not I risk getting canceled next month and not getting a chance to take this exam before I start residency, which would be ideal...
 
Gimpel:
 

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morningmedicine said:
I’m scheduled for an early November date. Do I bother smelling the roses and just push my date to May/June 2021 right now (which I was already contemplating because my school waived PE for graduation)? Because if not I risk getting canceled next month and not getting a chance to take this exam before I start residency, which would be ideal...
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I guess it's a question of how strong your app is. If you feel like you're borderline or if where you're applying is a reach, it may be worth keeping it just in case. If you feel you've got a decent chance, I don't think it's a terrible idea to push to spring.

Something to consider, we have no idea what'll happen when this thing and the flu start coinfecting people. I think it's within the realms of possibility that those kind of concerns will start taking a front seat. That's sorta why it's hilarious they're pushing it back into the winter instead of cancelling outright. Do they think it's gonna go away during the time in the year when people are most vulnerable?
 
Alkaidius said:
I guess it's a question of how strong your app is. If you feel like you're borderline or if where you're applying is a reach, it may be worth keeping it just in case. If you feel you've got a decent chance, I don't think it's a terrible idea to push to spring.

Something to consider, we have no idea what'll happen when this thing and the flu start coinfecting people. I think it's within the realms of possibility that those kind of concerns will start taking a front seat. That's sorta why it's hilarious they're pushing it back into the winter instead of cancelling outright. Do they think it's gonna go away during the time in the year when people are most vulnerable?
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i disagree with this....dont see how a pass on PE will strengthen an app. and the second wave is about to tie in nicely with the first
 
It’s pretty apparent now that the podiatry boards just follow whatever the NBOME tells them to do.

I agree the NBOME sucks. But the NBPME is even worse, they’re NBOME’s (female dog). Podiatry is a great profession. Podiatry school/residency develops great doctors/surgeons. We don’t need a terrible organization (NBOME) controlling our students.

this is sad. But what can you do? Good luck to everyone rescheduling. The podiatry students are on your side..
 
Alkaidius said:
I guess it's a question of how strong your app is. If you feel like you're borderline or if where you're applying is a reach, it may be worth keeping it just in case. If you feel you've got a decent chance, I don't think it's a terrible idea to push to spring.

Something to consider, we have no idea what'll happen when this thing and the flu start coinfecting people. I think it's within the realms of possibility that those kind of concerns will start taking a front seat. That's sorta why it's hilarious they're pushing it back into the winter instead of cancelling outright. Do they think it's gonna go away during the time in the year when people are most vulnerable?
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That’s fair advice. Honestly, I don’t really care if I have a pass or not come residency application time. I just don’t want to take this after July 2021 aka after I begin residency.
 
ToThePoint333 said:
i disagree with this....dont see how a pass on PE will strengthen an app. and the second wave is about to tie in nicely with the first
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Hahaha, I don't doubt its benefits would be minimal at best. But realistically PDs don't have a hive mind mentality. Your app may fall on the desk of someone that wants an efficient way to sift through apps or, god forbid, someone that values the exam. If we're talking absolutely maxing out your potential, having it is better than not.
 
Alkaidius said:
Hahaha, I don't doubt its benefits would be minimal at best. But realistically PDs don't have a hive mind mentality. Your app may fall on the desk of someone that wants an efficient way to sift through apps or, god forbid, someone that values the exam. If we're talking absolutely maxing out your potential, having it is better than not.
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doesnt really make sense considering 70-80% of both MD/DO students applying will not have taken the exam. from a logic prespective what are they gonna do look at only 20% of the apps? lmao
 
jkdoctor said:
USMLE Step 2 CS and COMLEX Level 2 PE are now mainly irrelevant for the 2021 residency match since most DO and MD students will not have scores before rank order list deadline. The only ones who may be slightly hurt are the poor b***ards who failed these tests before they went offline.
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And I totally hope that's the case, but until ERAS completely blinds them I'm only cautiously optimistic. I'm only arguing that the chances that there's a PD that might look at two similar DO apps, one with the PE and one without, and prefers the one with it is not zero.
 
The minute NBME does something about CS (not reporting scores or whatever), NBOME's hands will be tied to follow suit, so pressuring NBME may ironically be the path of least resistance. I can't believe though why NBOME is not waiving PE as a licensure requirement as NBME has . They're just digging this hole deeper and deeper for every DO student.
 
TXKnight said:
The minute NBME does something about CS (not reporting scores or whatever), NBOME's hands will be tied to follow suit, so pressuring NBME may ironically be the path of least resistance. I can't believe though why NBOME is not waiving PE as a licensure requirement as NBME has . They're just digging this hole deeper and deeper for every DO student.
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The problem w pressuring NBME is NBOME may or may not follow...so we should start a petition to entities that will cover both...hence we get more people...=more pressure...AAMC, ERAS, NRMP, LCME and FSMB...

I would write one but I am horrible at writing...anyone good at writing one to start one?
 
Local area emails that we are going to share COVID with.

[email protected] - health commissioner of Chicago
[email protected] - health commissioner of Cook county
[email protected] - Montgomery county PA health office
[email protected] - Montgomery county chair who is a doc.
[email protected] - vice chair of Mont

MATCH people
[email protected] - Laurie S. Curtin, Ph.D. – Chief Policy Officer NRMP
[email protected] -Joe Knickrehm - Director of Communications and Public Affairs - FSMB

i'll try to find more later. Off to ICU rounds.
 
How do the plan on getting everyone tested and not creating a massive backlog for the class of 2022 that goes way into the next year??
 
And I think rather than a petition for the NBME/NBOME we need one for ERAS calling for CS and PE scores to be blinded. It won’t matter what NBME/NBOME want to do if ERAS says they are blinding the scores. The public pressure that we have been putting on the NBOME now needs to shift to ERAS
 
BatmanDO9 said:
And I think rather than a petition for the NBME/NBOME we need one for ERAS calling for CS and PE scores to be blinded. It won’t matter what NBME/NBOME want to do if ERAS says they are blinding the scores. The public pressure that we have been putting on the NBOME now needs to shift to ERAS
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agreed with this. they have the power to not provide a fail filter or not provide any residency the ability to filter out applicants based on step 2 cs/pe
 
You shall know the Truth said:
My school just said, “reschedule at the earliest date possible.“ LOL
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Thats one thing that cracks me up.

They still haven't figured out a safe way to administer this test. Yet they want to assume a Nov restart date will work and we can just cram class of 2021 into spring.

Realistically the only way this testing could occur is regional testing. Let the schools administer the test.
 
I’ll bet they haven’t even considered not letting the c/o 2022 take it this year do that c/o 2021 can get it knocked out.
 
Ho0v-man said:
I’ll bet they haven’t even considered not letting the c/o 2022 take it this year do that c/o 2021 can get it knocked out.
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idk...can they?

Assuming the following: ~6,000 DO's in class of 2021 who need to take the PE. ~7,500 in the class of 2022. The absolute latest possible date the class of 2021 could take the PE is 6/30/21 (the night before intern year begins).

I looked at the number of testing appointments open from 11/1/20-6/30/21. an appointment could be an AM/PM session, so one test "date" could have two testing appointments.

chicago has 185 appointments open from 11/1/20-6/30/21.
conshohocken has 176 appointments open from 11/1/20-6/30/21.
assuming every single one of those dates is at full capacity (2 rooms each with 12 students = 24 total),
(185+176)x24 = 8664 spots

This sounds really great..they have plenty of spots!! But wait.
I understand they are already limiting the number of examinees per test day to abide by social distancing guidelines. so - say they cut down by 25%, to just 18 students per date...that ends up at 6,498 students.

Ok - still great, we're over 6K.

But remember, as part of their safety CYA policies, there is no penalty to reschedule at the last minute. so if someone were to register and cancel the night before, the spot is gone.

the NBOME is hedging their bets on the following:
- zero students from the class of 2022 registering for dates
- zero students cancelling their tests on short notice
- zero students failing the exam (...roughly 600 retakers per year)
- being able to test at 75-100% of test capacity
- no further delays

even if they could block the class of 2022 from registering...and the class of 2021 was ok with testing in june after their graduation, the numbers don't add up. the NBOME doesn't have the surge capacity to increase testing appointments like they do for a written exam.
 
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qwertythrowaway said:
idk...can they?

Assuming the following: ~6,000 DO's in class of 2021 who need to take the PE. ~7,500 in the class of 2022. The absolute latest possible date the class of 2021 could take the PE is 6/30/21 (the night before intern year begins).

I looked at the number of testing appointments open from 11/1/20-5/31/21. an appointment could be an AM/PM session, so one test "date" could have two testing appointments.

chicago has 185 appointments open from 11/1/20-6/30/21.
conshohocken has 176 appointments open from 11/1/20-6/30/21.
assuming every single one of those dates is at full capacity (2 rooms each with 12 students = 24 total),
(185+176)x24 = 8664 spots

This sounds really great..they have plenty of spots!! But wait.
I understand they are already limiting the number of examinees per test day to abide by social distancing guidelines. so - say they cut down by 25%, to just 18 students per date...that ends up at 6,498 students. Ok - still great, we're over 6K. But remember, as part of their safety CYA policies, there is no penalty to reschedule at the last minute. so if someone were to register and cancel the night before, the spot is gone. And oh yeah..what intern in their right mind wants to be traveling in June to take the PE?

the NBOME is hedging their bets on the following:
- zero students from the class of 2022 registering for dates
- zero students cancelling their tests on short notice
- zero students failing the exam (...roughly 600 retakers per year)
- being able to test at 75-100% of test capacity
- no further delays

the numbers do not support moving forward, even if they could block the class of 2022 from registering.
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All good points. I was just generally commenting on how even something that simple would help and they’re too inept to do it. Carry on.
 
Ho0v-man said:
All good points. I was just generally commenting on how even something that simple would help and they’re too inept to do it. Carry on.
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I was curious too. Agree with others that local testing would've been the way to go, at this point I think it's too late for that.
 
getfat said:
Realistically the only way this testing could occur is regional testing. Let the schools administer the test.
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Yes, but that boat has already sailed. If they really wanted to deliver the exam that should have been the strategy from the beginning. Yet they piddled around in the fantasy land of "COVID will just disappear!" for far too long.
 
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