Addressing PE

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FutureDoctor5000 said:
Nah it does mean something, dr broder is on the aoa house of delegates and I am sure if he feels the heat then others are as well, he was quoted just yesterday supporting level 2PE and now even he changed his mind, the more minds around gimple we can change the more likely it is we can cancel this exam ..
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This is a fallacy. This kind of thinking is the problem. Broders post makes people think something is happening when it’s not. Then those people don’t take action. “Oh look! DAVID BRODER is on the case!” same with ANYTHING the COSGP or SOMA says. All worthless.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Just want to say as an MD student, we support you guys. This is complete bull**** that they aren’t going to get rid of PE. Not sure what we can do other than add to the public outrage, but open to suggestions.
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If you got a class FB page, post there and ask your class to raise hell on social media. Ain’t much but it’s honest work.
 
Cranjis McBasketball said:
Theres literally no point to taking it. Your school isnt gonna prevent you from graduation because you canceled an exam that is A)in limbo and B)has thousands of students ahead of you needing to take it.

Obviously do what you feel is best, but if you dont cancel you cant really complain about it
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I have been speaking to classmates and am pretty close to rescheduling to a December date. Not worth the risk like others have said.
 
Earlier last year I was frequenting the reddit threads for Conshohocken and Chicago, but the general public doesn't really understand that this is a fake test. They pretty much just bunch medical students with undergraduates and high schoolers trying to avoid tests. Now there's precedent to cancel it and this would probably be a juicy story if there was only a way to actually get the media to bite...it's got all the outrage fodder: student debt/exploitation, greedy corps mismanaging funds, disregard for public safety.

How is it that there isn't a single loud voice that's on the students' side with media connections lol?
 
We need to concentrate our efforts not on attacking the NBOME but campaigning for as many students as possible to cancel their exam and request a refund. Advocate for legislative change and most importantly if you are in a position to do so get your license through USMLE and not the complex series. I have always been pessimistic at our chances of beating the NBOME but I am starting to feel like we are going to win this one. If we are going to win it won't be because the NBOME has a change of heart. We need to take our money back. Money is all they care about so that's how we win.

And for all the third years following this thread, you should cancel your date and push it back as far away from interview season as you possibly can. Just read some of the stories of how students careers' have been completely destroyed by the PE. You are taking on a tremendous amount of risk for almost zero reward. Now that CS is gone PD's will not give a **** you don't have a PE score.
 
Alkaidius said:
Earlier last year I was frequenting the reddit threads for Conshohocken and Chicago, but the general public doesn't really understand that this is a fake test. They pretty much just bunch medical students with undergraduates and high schoolers trying to avoid tests. Now there's precedent to cancel it and this would probably be a juicy story if there was only a way to actually get the media to bite...it's got all the outrage fodder: student debt/exploitation, greedy corps mismanaging funds, disregard for public safety.

How is it that there isn't a single loud voice that's on the students' side with media connections lol?
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What we need is one of our immunocompromised students to be the face of the movement. Not trying to take advantage of said student's health issues but it sure would make the NBOME look real bad. "Board examiners require cancer patient to travel during pandemic to see fake patients." The NBOME has been campaigning off the mission statement that they are "protecting the public" yet they are directly risking the lives of the public by going against all recommendations. The hypocrisy.
 
Guys so just got done with the web call...

1. I asked if there was any plan on waiving PE as requirement to level 3 for c/o 2021 and he said as of right now there is no plan to do that. Now if for some reason they can't resume PE or c/o 2021 wont be able to take it by end of this year then they will rethink about this.

2. I asked what does he think of people taking Step 1 --> Step 2 --> Step 3 for licensing purposes in majority states that allow it (since most of us take Step 1&2 anyways) and he said that he cant stop us from doing that but we should be loyal and proud to be DO as we prepared for this profession for the past 4 years and just take Level 3 since we have be preparing for it anyways.

3. I think licensing before 2004 was very weird... every state that their own exams and what not you had to take... with COMLEX (and Step) the process became more streamlined and you can apply for license in all 50 states without worrying about taking more exams. And he said if you pass all Levels (1, 2, 3) you can practice down under (Australia)

3.1 Currently if you look at pharmacist they have to take new exams everytime they decide to practice in new state... so its better that we don't have to do that.

4. NBOME is non-profit org and the salaries/other dialogues going on social media is not true.


I messenger don't kill me
 
throwaway199 said:
2. I asked what does he think of people taking Step 1 --> Step 2 --> Step 3 for licensing purposes in majority states that allow it (since most of us take Step 1&2 anyways) and he said that he cant stop us from doing that but we should be loyal and proud to be DO as we prepared for this profession for the past 4 years and just take Level 3 since we have be preparing for it anyways.
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LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
 
throwaway199 said:
Guys so just got done with the web call...

1. I asked if there was any plan on waiving PE as requirement to level 3 for c/o 2021 and he said as of right now there is no plan to do that. Now if for some reason they can't resume PE or c/o 2021 wont be able to take it by end of this year then they will rethink about this.

2. I asked what does he think of people taking Step 1 --> Step 2 --> Step 3 for licensing purposes in majority states that allow it (since most of us take Step 1&2 anyways) and he said that he cant stop us from doing that but we should be loyal and proud to be DO as we prepared for this profession for the past 4 years and just take Level 3 since we have be preparing for it anyways.

3. I think licensing before 2004 was very weird... every state that their own exams and what not you had to take... with COMLEX (and Step) the process became more streamlined and you can apply for license in all 50 states without worrying about taking more exams. And he said if you pass all Levels (1, 2, 3) you can practice down under (Australia)

3.1 Currently if you look at pharmacist they have to take new exams everytime they decide to practice in new state... so its better that we don't have to do that.

4. NBOME is non-profit org and the salaries/other dialogues going on social media is not true.


I messenger don't kill me
Click to expand...

#4 is an out right lie. The tax documents are public record. Anyone can see them. The rest of the points are irrelevant. I am very curious about you though. What motivated you to have this meeting again?
 
He's even more out of touch with reality than I ever thought.

throwaway199 said:
1. I asked if there was any plan on waiving PE as requirement to level 3 for c/o 2021 and he said as of right now there is no plan to do that. Now if for some reason they can't resume PE or c/o 2021 wont be able to take it by end of this year then they will rethink about this.
Click to expand...
What? There is literally zero chance class of 2021 will be tested by the end of this year.
throwaway199 said:
2. I asked what does he think of people taking Step 1 --> Step 2 --> Step 3 for licensing purposes in majority states that allow it (since most of us take Step 1&2 anyways) and he said that he cant stop us from doing that but we should be loyal and proud to be DO as we prepared for this profession for the past 4 years and just take Level 3 since we have be preparing for it anyways.
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Addressed in the post above.
throwaway199 said:
3. I think licensing before 2004 was very weird... every state that their own exams and what not you had to take... with COMLEX (and Step) the process became more streamlined and you can apply for license in all 50 states without worrying about taking more exams. And he said if you pass all Levels (1, 2, 3) you can practice down under (Australia)
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This is 100% irrelevant. There is nothing special about 2004 that made PE necessary lol.
throwaway199 said:
3.1 Currently if you look at pharmacist they have to take new exams everytime they decide to practice in new state... so its better that we don't have to do that.
Click to expand...
What? Who cares what pharmacists do. The only group we should be compared to is USMD.
throwaway199 said:
4. NBOME is non-profit org and the salaries/other dialogues going on social media is not true.
Click to expand...
It's literally a publicly available document, because...... they are a "non-profit."
 
cbc86 said:
#4 is an out right lie. The tax documents are public record. Anyone can see them. The rest of the points are irrelevant. I am very curious about you though. What motivated you to have this meeting again?
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I was mostly interested on #1 to see if they had any plan on waiving PE as requirement for Level 3 so I can take Level 3 asap. But looks like it ain't in the works as of now.

As far as #4 he said the salary stuff was not true. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
throwaway199 said:
Guys so just got done with the web call...

1. I asked if there was any plan on waiving PE as requirement to level 3 for c/o 2021 and he said as of right now there is no plan to do that. Now if for some reason they can't resume PE or c/o 2021 wont be able to take it by end of this year then they will rethink about this.

2. I asked what does he think of people taking Step 1 --> Step 2 --> Step 3 for licensing purposes in majority states that allow it (since most of us take Step 1&2 anyways) and he said that he cant stop us from doing that but we should be loyal and proud to be DO as we prepared for this profession for the past 4 years and just take Level 3 since we have be preparing for it anyways.

3. I think licensing before 2004 was very weird... every state that their own exams and what not you had to take... with COMLEX (and Step) the process became more streamlined and you can apply for license in all 50 states without worrying about taking more exams. And he said if you pass all Levels (1, 2, 3) you can practice down under (Australia)

3.1 Currently if you look at pharmacist they have to take new exams everytime they decide to practice in new state... so its better that we don't have to do that.

4. NBOME is non-profit org and the salaries/other dialogues going on social media is not true.


I messenger don't kill me
Click to expand...

Did he mention any logistics about how they would get everyone tested in a reasonable time? That's kind of the biggest evidence that this whole charade is a Hail Mary. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't even have concrete numbers.
 
Alkaidius said:
Did he mention any logistics about how they would get everyone tested in a reasonable time? That's kind of the biggest evidence that this whole charade is a Hail Mary. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't even have concrete numbers.
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Nothing on that front besides that there will be 4 sites. Two satellites and two orig with priority for c/o 2021
 
throwaway199 said:
Also mentioned that they worked with COCA to make it possible for c/o 2021 to graduate without PE so they do care about us and are doing their best in this COVID times.
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This doesn’t matter if our schools don’t let us graduate and our residencies don’t let us progress without level 3 completed in a timely fashion. Screw him. Step 3 all the way baby!!
 
throwaway199 said:
Nothing on that front besides that there will be 4 sites. Two satellites and two orig with priority for c/o 2021
Click to expand...
So the hole is getting deeper then. Good to know I guess. But this is one of those times where getting actual numbers would've been great...

throwaway199 said:
Also mentioned that they worked with COCA to make it possible for c/o 2021 to graduate without PE so they do care about us and are doing their best in this COVID times.
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Lol yes we should be thanking them for allowing us not to repeat a year because it was literally impossible to graduate otherwise. Should I also thank the person in front of me on the highway for not hitting the break and wrecking us both?
 
hawthorn9797 said:
This doesn’t matter if our schools don’t let us graduate and our residencies don’t let us progress without level 3 completed in a timely fashion. Screw him. Step 3 all the way baby!!
Click to expand...
Yes exactly!! My #1 says on their website they prefer step 3/level 3 to be done before starting and should be done by December of intern year at the latest. And is in my home state of Florida which requires the comlex series. So he is squeezing me into an impossible situation by refusing to waive or cancel Level 2 PE, or at the very least let us take them out of order.
 
cbc86 said:
COCA waived this requirement sometime last year. I am having trouble believing anything you say lol.
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Yes it was waived last year and he said NBOME worked with them to make that happen last year... Essentially the point was that they are thinking about us in the process contrary to what you see on social media.
 
sunshinefl said:
Yes exactly!! My #1 says on their website they prefer step 3/level 3 to be done before starting and should be done by December of intern year at the latest. And is in my home state of Florida which requires the comlex series. So he is squeezing me into an impossible situation by refusing to waive or cancel Level 2 PE, or at the very least let us take them out of order.
Click to expand...
So I mentioned that and he said "official NBOME's recommendation for residency prgms is not to let interns take Level 3 until they are 6 months into their training"
 
sunshinefl said:
Yes exactly!! My #1 says on their website they prefer step 3/level 3 to be done before starting and should be done by December of intern year at the latest. And is in my home state of Florida which requires the comlex series. So he is squeezing me into an impossible situation by refusing to waive or cancel Level 2 PE, or at the very least let us take them out of order.
Click to expand...
I just learned about another gross DO exam called the COMVEX. I was looking into the FL state laws and not sure if I’m reading it wrong but I think it says you can take the COMVEX instead of level III? Can we bypass PE that way? I’m trying to look for other ways we can practice in these 5-6 states
 
The rationale for this exam continuing makes zero sense. Doctors pre-2004 didn't take it, are they a threat to the public? MDs now no longer take it, are they a threat to the public? I spent the first 2 years of school being graded on SPs and OMM OSCEs, isn't 2 years of eval worth more than an 8 hour exam? And, lastly, we are seeing REAL patients and being evaluated by preceptors on the daily. Any discussion is useless until someone is able to ask these questions in a public setting and get an answer.
 
Yaldabaoth said:
I also contributed to the hashtag. Is there anything more that can be done though?
Click to expand...

group_theory said:
As of now, all DO schools are required to have their students take and pass COMLEX in order to graduate, since this requirement is required to maintain AOA/COCA accreditation




There are a few other quirks that students must keep in mind before cancelling COMLEX Level 2 PE ... some states may require COMLEX Level 2 for licensure (either as part of the COMLEX series, or because they have an OMT/OPP requirement that COMLEX PE satisfy)

California requires COMLEX for unrestricted license and does not accept USMLE

Welcome To Our Web Site - Osteopathic Medical Board of California

www.ombc.ca.gov www.ombc.ca.gov


Florida requires COMLEX for unrestricted license and does not accept USMLE

Osteopathic Medicine Full Licensure - Florida Board of Osteopathic Medicine

floridasosteopathicmedicine.gov floridasosteopathicmedicine.gov



Michigan requires COMLEX for unrestricted license

West Virginia requires COMLEX for unrestricted license

Home - WV Board of Osteopathic Medicine

www.wvbdosteo.org www.wvbdosteo.org

Oklahoma requires COMLEX for unrestricted license

Oklahoma State Board of Osteopathic Examiners - Home

Welcome to the Oklahoma State Board of Osteopathic Examiners Website
www.osboe.ok.gov www.osboe.ok.gov

Pennsylvania Board of Osteopathic Medicine, by law, requires that applicants (for unrestricted license) have taken and pass an OMT component in order to be granted a license (in addition to the AOA approved intern year requirement). The Board have determined that COMLEX Level 2 PE counts towards the OMT component. If you don't have COMLEX PE, then you'll need to sign up to take a separate OMT exam in order to get licensed in Pennsylvania (currently administrated by PearsonVUE)

Pennsylvania Osteopathic Medicine

The Pennsylvania Osteopathic Manipulation Therapy Examination is coordinated through the Pennsylvania Department of State.
home.pearsonvue.com home.pearsonvue.com

Board Resources and Documents | Department of State | Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

www.dos.pa.gov www.dos.pa.gov






Maine apparently requires an OPP exam if the USMLE is taken without COMLEX

Washington (state) requires an OPP exam if the USMLE was taken in lieu of COMLEX

Tennessee - COMLEX, NBOME for initial or reciprocal licensure -USMLE and FLEX accepted for reciprocity only
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On twitter: @PAStateDept @FLBoardofOsteo @FloridaDOs @CMAdocs @doclobby @FoundationPAMED @MichStateMedSoc @WestVirginiaAG @MaineDocs @WAMedCommission @WSMA_update @tnmed @TAMSS_News @TNCourts @AlleghenyCourt @WVcourts @MECourts @MichiganCourts @WACourts @CalCourts @Florida_Courts

@flcourts
 
fldoctorgirl said:
The rationale for this exam continuing makes zero sense. Doctors pre-2004 didn't take it, are they a threat to the public? MDs now no longer take it, are they a threat to the public? I spent the first 2 years of school being graded on SPs and OMM OSCEs, isn't 2 years of eval worth more than an 8 hour exam? And, lastly, we are seeing REAL patients and being evaluated by preceptors on the daily. Any discussion is useless until someone is able to ask these questions in a public setting and get an answer.
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You will get your chance to do that. They are doing conferences and Q&A for individual schools. My school is doing it next month
 
throwaway199 said:
So I mentioned that and he said "official NBOME's recommendation for residency prgms is not to let interns take Level 3 until they are 6 months into their training"
Click to expand...
Again, this is worthless seeing as the majority of programs have a requirement that it be taken by December of intern year. It is literally in more than one of the residency contracts I have been shown.

throwaway199 said:
You will get your chance to do that. They are doing conferences and Q&A for individual schools. My school is doing it next month
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Ok Gimpel. There is no justification for this exam. End of story. The NBOME can say whatever they want, it's all irrelevant.
 
throwaway199 said:
You will get your chance to do that. They are doing conferences and Q&A for individual schools. My school is doing it next month
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At the end of the day, most med students are not going to take the risk of speaking up. The NBOME has too much control. Unfortunately, it would need to be someone who's out of their reach.
 
fldoctorgirl said:
At the end of the day, most med students are not going to take the risk of speaking up. The NBOME has too much control. Unfortunately, it would need to be someone who's out of their reach.
Click to expand...
Well see that's the problem tho. Unless we speak up how we gonna get them to change. Like we going in circles here. I'm matching this year and I did speak up.

I mean this is the other reason why we don't have resident unions. We gotta stand up and speak up for ourselves in large numbers.
 
throwaway199 said:
So I mentioned that and he said "official NBOME's recommendation for residency prgms is not to let interns take Level 3 until they are 6 months into their training"
Click to expand...
Well I can’t even take it then because
1. There are no dates in 2021
2. I don’t know when I’ll have leave to be able to prep, travel, and take it (also yay to using my precious PTO of residency to study and take a fake patient exam that they were unable to provide to me for 2 years)
3. Even once you do take it there’s like a 2.5 month wait for results before you can signup
4. Then when you can signup for Level 3 you have to hope there is availability for you soon at Prometric
 
sunshinefl said:
Well I can’t even take it then because
1. There are no dates in 2021
2. I don’t know when I’ll have leave to be able to prep, travel, and take it (also yay to using my precious PTO of residency to study and take a fake patient exam that they were unable to provide to me for 2 years)
3. Even once you do take it there’s like a 2.5 month wait for results before you can signup
4. Then when you can signup for Level 3 you have to hope there is availability for you soon at Prometric
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It's pretty clear the NBOME hasn't actually thought any of this through beyond, "IF WE CANCEL WE WON'T FINANCIALLY MAKE IT" lol
 
Jackaleauxpe said:
So what is going to happen to people in the class of '22 who literally cannot take it and get a passing score before match day next year?
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I don't think anyone will care honestly. No PD is going to be looking for a PE score now that CS is cancelled. I'm not really concerned about not having a score in time for interviews.
 
Holy crap I just spit out my coffee from his response to the salary question...

It's in the tax forms dude. It's a legal document. Submitted by NBOME accountants and certified by your lawyers.

Hilarious. Let me get out the DSM V and find an appropriate diagnosis for this guy.
 
fldoctorgirl said:
I don't think anyone will care honestly. No PD is going to be looking for a PE score now that CS is cancelled. I'm not really concerned about not having a score in time for interviews.
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I'm more concerned about what the schools will do. Will they keep us from graduating?
 
Noisewater-TDX said:
Holy crap I just spit out my coffee from his response to the salary question...

It's in the tax forms dude. It's a legal document. Submitted by NBOME accountants and certified by your lawyers.

Hilarious. Let me get out the DSM V and find an appropriate diagnosis for this guy.
Click to expand...
I love your avatar
 
Noisewater-TDX said:
Holy crap I just spit out my coffee from his response to the salary question...

It's in the tax forms dude. It's a legal document. Submitted by NBOME accountants and certified by your lawyers.

Hilarious. Let me get out the DSM V and find an appropriate diagnosis for this guy.
Click to expand...
Is Greedy-Narcissistic-Egotistical-Anti-Social-Personality-Bastard disorder in there? If not I feel it should be, to fully characterize the behavior of someone like Dr. Gimpel.
 
Jackaleauxpe said:
I'm more concerned about what the schools will do. Will they keep us from graduating?
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Not if most people don't have it done. It'll be like what happened this year. But there are dates from January on of next year, so it shouldn't be a problem.
 
I don’t see how they really expect us to have PE and level 3 done by the end of the year for c/o 2021. They’re not even prioritizing the c/o 2021. M3s at my school are already signed up for PE despite over 6,000 M4s needing it.
 
msnbc2020 said:
Was this a web call with you only or with an entire school or student organization?
Are you serious that if you do not take COMLEX PE then you are not loyal and proud to be a DO?
Click to expand...
Just me and him. You can actually email him and he usually responds back!
 
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