Addressing PE

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Thanks. What resources did you use? I was planning on just buying a month of Uworld. I am considering adding B&B, but I scored fairly high on both Levels so I don't think too much re-learning should be necessary.
yeah just start with UWorld and if it isn't going well or you're lacking in a particular area then add B&B. I personally love B&B but since you already were doing well you might do okay with just questions.
 
Just going through some sample Qs on the NBME website has affirmed my decision. I would SO much rather take both Steps back to back than prepare for, travel for, and sit through the f**king PE. Plus, studying for the Steps won't hurt my intern year (may help?) whereas having to leave actual patients to take a fake exam will almost certainly be a detriment to intern year. Anyway, rant over and thank you for coming to my TedTalk.
 
My school just had the call with the NBOME. It was pretty interesting. Dr. Gimpel expressed his frustration at his words being "taken out of context" on the internet, so I will try my best to give my own impression of what was said instead of quoting him. That said, there is a video recording of the meeting for accountability that I’ve requested a copy of from my school.

He mentioned several times how hurt he was that people were being so mean to him online about Level 2 PE when there hasn’t been a Level 2 PE exam administered in a year. He said the NBOME was shocked by the decision to end Step 2 CS and that his own announcement that Level 2 PE was going to continue was a response to him being inundated with questions about it. I’m not sure how that explains the content of the letter, but I got the sense that he was trying to explain why it might have been tone-deaf, especially about the part that says “we hear you,”. One of my brilliant classmates very clearly spelled out why the message is being perceived poorly, and his response to that was something along the lines of: we are better verbal communicators than writers. I found this funny considering that this whole mess is about being competent communicators.

He also mentioned how hurt he was that our petitions mentioned that a bunch of students flying in and out of Fresno might be a safety concern in a pandemic, and (in a somewhat insultingly beside-the-point-way) cited how safe the other COMLEX exams have been. I explained that as the writer of the petition, pointing out safety concerns re: the new site was not intended to make him feel bad, but to show that the timelines the NBOME itself has provided (resuming testing in April 2021 and starting a new location in Fresno in May 2021) is risky in terms of a slow vaccination effort and the emergence of new strains. He didn’t really argue with this except to repeat that they are being very safety minded.

He also attempted to reinforce over and over the idea that this is all because of patient safety, so addressing that point became my main line of questioning. I asked whether he believes that by discontinuing Step 2 CS, the NBME is endangering the public. He said yes.

I asked him if the NBOME had any plans to communicate their belief to the public that incoming MD residents would be endangering patients (I think I literally used these words because I couldn’t believe he would admit to something so outrageous). He said yes, but that they have to be diplomatic about it. As rationale for this belief, he mentioned that after the announcement of Step 2 CS discontinuation, he knows that some MD schools are cutting clinical education funding. I don’t understand why that would impact the class of 2021, though I do agree that would be concerning trend. Still, it should be up to accreditation boards to determine if there is sufficient clinical education in any given program.

He explicitly stated throughout that Step 2 CS and Level 2 PE are very different exams, and pointed to this list of research re: Level 2 PE efficacy. I felt like he was implying that Step 2 CS wasn’t as well validated, which would be hilarious if true. It would be great if someone could go through the PE specific articles and determine how strong these studies actually are (Dr. Gimpel is a co-author on a large number of them, which already presents a conflict of interest).

I hope I can get access to the recording because his answers to some of my other questions were kind of difficult to follow. For example, he kept mentioning that some states require all physicians undergo a clinical skills exam for licensure, but then said the standards are different for MD and DO since they are licensed by different boards, as if the NBOME and the osteopathic licensing boards don’t work together on creating these standards. So I’m still confused about that.

But my suggestion right now would be for everyone who hasn’t yet to ask for refunds for Level 2 PE, to lobby any state boards that have disparate licensing requirements for DOs and MDs, and to take the USMLE series once you find out where you matched and it’s allowed for licensure in your state, and to reach out to Chicago, Philadelphia, and especially Fresno municipal leadership to inform them about the situation and how people feel about it. I will be sending the mayor of Fresno the letter to the state osteopathic board + signatures collected so far (272, with multiple attendings) so that they know how practicing physicians feel about the risk-benefit ratio of opening a testing site there.
So John Gimpel is both a manchild and a sociopath. We're all in danger of not matching and being saddled by six figures of inescapable debt and he's hurt by our words? F**k this guy. No, seriously, F**K THIS GUY. This guy and his cronies are fully willing to kill people to protect their salaries. There is no way they're not aware of the the consequences of their actions, they just don't care. They don't even care that they're essentially dooming this profession and OMM to die, because none of the new generation will want anything to do with it with how we've been treated. Maybe it deserves to if this is the direction it's headed in... But this just proves that the only recourse we're going to get will be at the city and state level. We all need to start reaching out to those officials and letting them know how dangerous this is, especially with the new COVID variants circulating.

And please don't call him Dr. Gimpel. He is not a doctor anymore and most certainly is not deserving of the title.
 
All I can say about the NBOME’s reckless behavior:

Understanding “DARVO”

“[T]he offender rapidly creates the impression that the abuser is the wronged one, while the victim or concerned observer is the offender. Figure and ground are completely reversed. […] The offender is on the offense and the person attempting to hold the offender accountable is put on the defense.”
 
So I think most of us know deep down that these pathetic, unscrupulous criminals will never cancel this test but that we all WILL move on one way or another from the clutches of the NBOME, AOA, and COCA either way. That said we must try our best to get it canceled for the future classes and because it's just the ethical thing to do. It should not exist and the DO organization cabal should be destroyed.

I just want everyone to think about the bright side though. John weakling Gimpel, a man that continues to be a pathetic reminder of what old DOs think DOs should be act like, will be the reason that osteopathy as we know it is destroyed and we can all move on to being 21st century *physicians*. That gives me a really warm feeling knowing the irony. So many formerly naive and frankly enabling med students finally understand what SDN posters were originally ridiculed for posting about for so many years. So-called self-loathing DOs are getting a little vindication because the NBOME cannot even be bothered to pretend they give a ****. The head in the sand students are even turning on them and it is music to my ears.

Fight the good fight, and as always, death to the NBOME.
 
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He mentioned several times how hurt he was that people were being so mean to him online
I am hurt by the fact that I have to take an exam that is no longer required of MD students. I am hurt that said exam cost me $1300 (plus another $500-1000 for travel) when I have $300k+ in debt. I am hurt that this is making me wish I didn't want to practice in Florida.

Seriously, he's hurt??? Is he 5???? This is why we will never get anywhere communicating with him. Also, it's so clear he reads these threads and yet still doesn't care to acknowledge the good points we make, just the fact that he's "hurt". I'm embarrassed.
 
My school just had the call with the NBOME. It was pretty interesting. Dr. Gimpel expressed his frustration at his words being "taken out of context" on the internet, so I will try my best to give my own impression of what was said instead of quoting him. That said, there is a video recording of the meeting for accountability that I’ve requested a copy of from my school.

He mentioned several times how hurt he was that people were being so mean to him online about Level 2 PE when there hasn’t been a Level 2 PE exam administered in a year. He said the NBOME was shocked by the decision to end Step 2 CS and that his own announcement that Level 2 PE was going to continue was a response to him being inundated with questions about it. I’m not sure how that explains the content of the letter, but I got the sense that he was trying to explain why it might have been tone-deaf, especially about the part that says “we hear you,”. One of my brilliant classmates very clearly spelled out why the message is being perceived poorly, and his response to that was something along the lines of: we are better verbal communicators than writers. I found this funny considering that this whole mess is about being competent communicators.

He also mentioned how hurt he was that our petitions mentioned that a bunch of students flying in and out of Fresno might be a safety concern in a pandemic, and (in a somewhat insultingly beside-the-point-way) cited how safe the other COMLEX exams have been. I explained that as the writer of the petition, pointing out safety concerns re: the new site was not intended to make him feel bad, but to show that the timelines the NBOME itself has provided (resuming testing in April 2021 and starting a new location in Fresno in May 2021) is risky in terms of a slow vaccination effort and the emergence of new strains. He didn’t really argue with this except to repeat that they are being very safety minded.

He also attempted to reinforce over and over the idea that this is all because of patient safety, so addressing that point became my main line of questioning. I asked whether he believes that by discontinuing Step 2 CS, the NBME is endangering the public. He said yes.

I asked him if the NBOME had any plans to communicate their belief to the public that incoming MD residents would be endangering patients (I think I literally used these words because I couldn’t believe he would admit to something so outrageous). He said yes, but that they have to be diplomatic about it. As rationale for this belief, he mentioned that after the announcement of Step 2 CS discontinuation, he knows that some MD schools are cutting clinical education funding. I don’t understand why that would impact the class of 2021, though I do agree that would be concerning trend. Still, it should be up to accreditation boards to determine if there is sufficient clinical education in any given program.

He explicitly stated throughout that Step 2 CS and Level 2 PE are very different exams, and pointed to this list of research re: Level 2 PE efficacy. I felt like he was implying that Step 2 CS wasn’t as well validated, which would be hilarious if true. It would be great if someone could go through the PE specific articles and determine how strong these studies actually are (Dr. Gimpel is a co-author on a large number of them, which already presents a conflict of interest).

I hope I can get access to the recording because his answers to some of my other questions were kind of difficult to follow. For example, he kept mentioning that some states require all physicians undergo a clinical skills exam for licensure, but then said the standards are different for MD and DO since they are licensed by different boards, as if the NBOME and the osteopathic licensing boards don’t work together on creating these standards. So I’m still confused about that.

But my suggestion right now would be for everyone who hasn’t yet to ask for refunds for Level 2 PE, to lobby any state boards that have disparate licensing requirements for DOs and MDs, and to take the USMLE series once you find out where you matched and it’s allowed for licensure in your state, and to reach out to Chicago, Philadelphia, and especially Fresno municipal leadership to inform them about the situation and how people feel about it. I will be sending the mayor of Fresno the letter to the state osteopathic board + signatures collected so far (272, with multiple attendings) so that they know how practicing physicians feel about the risk-benefit ratio of opening a testing site there.
Good on you and your class. Are you certain a recording exists?
 
So I think most of us know deep down that these pathetic, unscrupulous criminals will never cancel this test but that we all WILL move on one way or another from the clutches of the NBOME, AOA, and COCA either eay. That said we must try our best to get it canceled for the future classes and because it's just the ethical thing to do. It should not exist and the DO organization cabal should be destroyed.

I just want everyone to think about the bright side though. John weakling Gimpel, a man that continues to be a pathetic reminder of what old DOs think DOs should be act like, will be the reason that osteopathy as we know it is destroyed and we can all move on to being 21st century *physicians*. That gives me a really warm feeling knowing the irony. So many formerly naive and frankly enabling med students finally understand what SDN posters were originally ridiculed for posting for so many years. So-called self-loathing DOs are getting a little vindication because the NBOME cannot even be bothered to pretend they give a ****. The head in the sand students are even turning on them and it is music to my ears.

Fight the good fight, and as always, death to the NBOME.
Please, don't insult men everywhere.
 
I am hurt by the fact that I have to take an exam that is no longer required of MD students. I am hurt that said exam cost me $1300 (plus another $500-1000 for travel) when I have $300k+ in debt. I am hurt that this is making me wish I didn't want to practice in Florida.

Seriously, he's hurt??? Is he 5???? This is why we will never get anywhere communicating with him. Also, it's so clear he reads these threads and yet still doesn't care to acknowledge the good points we make, just the fact that he's "hurt". I'm embarrassed.
Because it's all about me, me, me! 🙄
 
I asked him if the NBOME had any plans to communicate their belief to the public that incoming MD residents would be endangering patients (I think I literally used these words because I couldn’t believe he would admit to something so outrageous). He said yes, but that they have to be diplomatic about it.
I cannot wait to see how that turns out...

But my god this man sounds like a crybaby.
 
My school just had the call with the NBOME. It was pretty interesting. Dr. Gimpel expressed his frustration at his words being "taken out of context" on the internet, so I will try my best to give my own impression of what was said instead of quoting him. That said, there is a video recording of the meeting for accountability that I’ve requested a copy of from my school.

He mentioned several times how hurt he was that people were being so mean to him online about Level 2 PE when there hasn’t been a Level 2 PE exam administered in a year. He said the NBOME was shocked by the decision to end Step 2 CS and that his own announcement that Level 2 PE was going to continue was a response to him being inundated with questions about it. I’m not sure how that explains the content of the letter, but I got the sense that he was trying to explain why it might have been tone-deaf, especially about the part that says “we hear you,”. One of my brilliant classmates very clearly spelled out why the message is being perceived poorly, and his response to that was something along the lines of: we are better verbal communicators than writers. I found this funny considering that this whole mess is about being competent communicators.

He also mentioned how hurt he was that our petitions mentioned that a bunch of students flying in and out of Fresno might be a safety concern in a pandemic, and (in a somewhat insultingly beside-the-point-way) cited how safe the other COMLEX exams have been. I explained that as the writer of the petition, pointing out safety concerns re: the new site was not intended to make him feel bad, but to show that the timelines the NBOME itself has provided (resuming testing in April 2021 and starting a new location in Fresno in May 2021) is risky in terms of a slow vaccination effort and the emergence of new strains. He didn’t really argue with this except to repeat that they are being very safety minded.

He also attempted to reinforce over and over the idea that this is all because of patient safety, so addressing that point became my main line of questioning. I asked whether he believes that by discontinuing Step 2 CS, the NBME is endangering the public. He said yes.

I asked him if the NBOME had any plans to communicate their belief to the public that incoming MD residents would be endangering patients (I think I literally used these words because I couldn’t believe he would admit to something so outrageous). He said yes, but that they have to be diplomatic about it. As rationale for this belief, he mentioned that after the announcement of Step 2 CS discontinuation, he knows that some MD schools are cutting clinical education funding. I don’t understand why that would impact the class of 2021, though I do agree that would be concerning trend. Still, it should be up to accreditation boards to determine if there is sufficient clinical education in any given program.

He explicitly stated throughout that Step 2 CS and Level 2 PE are very different exams, and pointed to this list of research re: Level 2 PE efficacy. I felt like he was implying that Step 2 CS wasn’t as well validated, which would be hilarious if true. It would be great if someone could go through the PE specific articles and determine how strong these studies actually are (Dr. Gimpel is a co-author on a large number of them, which already presents a conflict of interest).

I hope I can get access to the recording because his answers to some of my other questions were kind of difficult to follow. For example, he kept mentioning that some states require all physicians undergo a clinical skills exam for licensure, but then said the standards are different for MD and DO since they are licensed by different boards, as if the NBOME and the osteopathic licensing boards don’t work together on creating these standards. So I’m still confused about that.

But my suggestion right now would be for everyone who hasn’t yet to ask for refunds for Level 2 PE, to lobby any state boards that have disparate licensing requirements for DOs and MDs, and to take the USMLE series once you find out where you matched and it’s allowed for licensure in your state, and to reach out to Chicago, Philadelphia, and especially Fresno municipal leadership to inform them about the situation and how people feel about it. I will be sending the mayor of Fresno the letter to the state osteopathic board + signatures collected so far (272, with multiple attendings) so that they know how practicing physicians feel about the risk-benefit ratio of opening a testing site there.

Can you get the video, just capture the part where Gimpel admits that the NBME is endangering patients by cancelling the CS and post the video on the twitter?

This should gain a lot of support from our MD colleagues.
 
My school just had the call with the NBOME. It was pretty interesting. Dr. Gimpel expressed his frustration at his words being "taken out of context" on the internet, so I will try my best to give my own impression of what was said instead of quoting him. That said, there is a video recording of the meeting for accountability that I’ve requested a copy of from my school.

He mentioned several times how hurt he was that people were being so mean to him online about Level 2 PE when there hasn’t been a Level 2 PE exam administered in a year. He said the NBOME was shocked by the decision to end Step 2 CS and that his own announcement that Level 2 PE was going to continue was a response to him being inundated with questions about it. I’m not sure how that explains the content of the letter, but I got the sense that he was trying to explain why it might have been tone-deaf, especially about the part that says “we hear you,”. One of my brilliant classmates very clearly spelled out why the message is being perceived poorly, and his response to that was something along the lines of: we are better verbal communicators than writers. I found this funny considering that this whole mess is about being competent communicators.

He also mentioned how hurt he was that our petitions mentioned that a bunch of students flying in and out of Fresno might be a safety concern in a pandemic, and (in a somewhat insultingly beside-the-point-way) cited how safe the other COMLEX exams have been. I explained that as the writer of the petition, pointing out safety concerns re: the new site was not intended to make him feel bad, but to show that the timelines the NBOME itself has provided (resuming testing in April 2021 and starting a new location in Fresno in May 2021) is risky in terms of a slow vaccination effort and the emergence of new strains. He didn’t really argue with this except to repeat that they are being very safety minded.

He also attempted to reinforce over and over the idea that this is all because of patient safety, so addressing that point became my main line of questioning. I asked whether he believes that by discontinuing Step 2 CS, the NBME is endangering the public. He said yes.

I asked him if the NBOME had any plans to communicate their belief to the public that incoming MD residents would be endangering patients (I think I literally used these words because I couldn’t believe he would admit to something so outrageous). He said yes, but that they have to be diplomatic about it. As rationale for this belief, he mentioned that after the announcement of Step 2 CS discontinuation, he knows that some MD schools are cutting clinical education funding. I don’t understand why that would impact the class of 2021, though I do agree that would be concerning trend. Still, it should be up to accreditation boards to determine if there is sufficient clinical education in any given program.

He explicitly stated throughout that Step 2 CS and Level 2 PE are very different exams, and pointed to this list of research re: Level 2 PE efficacy. I felt like he was implying that Step 2 CS wasn’t as well validated, which would be hilarious if true. It would be great if someone could go through the PE specific articles and determine how strong these studies actually are (Dr. Gimpel is a co-author on a large number of them, which already presents a conflict of interest).

I hope I can get access to the recording because his answers to some of my other questions were kind of difficult to follow. For example, he kept mentioning that some states require all physicians undergo a clinical skills exam for licensure, but then said the standards are different for MD and DO since they are licensed by different boards, as if the NBOME and the osteopathic licensing boards don’t work together on creating these standards. So I’m still confused about that.

But my suggestion right now would be for everyone who hasn’t yet to ask for refunds for Level 2 PE, to lobby any state boards that have disparate licensing requirements for DOs and MDs, and to take the USMLE series once you find out where you matched and it’s allowed for licensure in your state, and to reach out to Chicago, Philadelphia, and especially Fresno municipal leadership to inform them about the situation and how people feel about it. I will be sending the mayor of Fresno the letter to the state osteopathic board + signatures collected so far (272, with multiple attendings) so that they know how practicing physicians feel about the risk-benefit ratio of opening a testing site there.
If he can get elite MD residencies like MGH to prefer DO students with a passed Comlex PE, I’m all ears. Otherwise, my response is:

“ok, boomer.”
 
Can you get the video, just capture the part where Gimpel admits that the NBME is endangering patients by cancelling the CS and post the video on the twitter?

This should gain a lot of support from our MD colleagues.
I personally am not going to release the video (if I can even get access to it) because I don't want to appear as if I'm blackmailing the guy. I just shared information that was freely given to me that I believe other DO students should have as well. I'm actually feeling a bit anxious about whatever blowback this will receive
 
I personally am not going to release the video (if I can even get access to it) because I don't want to appear as if I'm blackmailing the guy. I just shared information that was freely given to me that I believe other DO students should have as well. I'm actually feeling a bit anxious about whatever blowback this will receive

It will receive none. Schools are fed up, students are, attendings are too.

There are also 5-6 other people posting on twitter about it. You aren't the only one.
 
I personally am not going to release the video (if I can even get access to it) because I don't want to appear as if I'm blackmailing the guy. I just shared information that was freely given to me that I believe other DO students should have as well. I'm actually feeling a bit anxious about whatever blowback this will receive
I understand that. Thank you for sharing the meeting information though. Hopefully the video gets leaked. In my personal opinion, this is the only optimal time (since our safety is at risk) to squash the COMLEX PE and NBOME for more future positive changes (like merging the USMLE and COMLEX).
 
Although it's certainly possible that the NBOME is trying to keep PE for the money, it's also possible that Gimpel is just so steeped in the "PE must be really good sauce" because of all the research he has done that he just can't give it up. So it may not be that he's evil, just lost.

But, for funsies, you should look up how much the NBOME got in PPP funds. Rev up the outrage machine.

Then look up how much the NBME got. Which appears to be zero.
 
Although it's certainly possible that the NBOME is trying to keep PE for the money, it's also possible that Gimpel is just so steeped in the "PE must be really good sauce" because of all the research he has done that he just can't give it up. So it may not be that he's evil, just lost.

But, for funsies, you should look up how much the NBOME got in PPP funds. Rev up the outrage machine.

Then look up how much the NBME got. Which appears to be zero.
exactly.

the NBME stopped the financial bleed early. closing down testing centers, firing staff.
the NBOME, in contrast, accepted millions in loans and doubled down on their investment - even going as far as to hire JHU consultants, set up a temporary testing site in Fresno, etc.

this is John Gimpels legacy (in his mind). It is very sad. I am not sure if his position is up for a vote, or what, but he needs to go.
 
Although it's certainly possible that the NBOME is trying to keep PE for the money, it's also possible that Gimpel is just so steeped in the "PE must be really good sauce" because of all the research he has done that he just can't give it up. So it may not be that he's evil, just lost.

But, for funsies, you should look up how much the NBOME got in PPP funds. Rev up the outrage machine.

Then look up how much the NBME got. Which appears to be zero.
People brought up the PPP loans on social media a while back. No one seemed to care...
 
I am perhaps the most staunch advocate of osteopathy at my school. I plan to use most aspects of OMM in my future practice.

Because of John Gimpel, I will NEVER give another penny to the NBOME, AOA, COCA, DO specialty boards, etc. I will forever advise close friends and family to avoid doing anything distinctly osteopathic as long as he's around. I'd sooner see my children pursue NP/PA/Chiropractic than get a DO degree as long as he's around.

John Gimpel has ruined my love for osteopathic medicine and he will be the sole reason of us losing our distinctiveness as a profession. At this point I'd rather see the NBOME fold and the DO degree become extinct. And I plan to voice these opinions more publicly as an attending, so long as he's still in charge.
 
exactly.

the NBME stopped the financial bleed early. closing down testing centers, firing staff.
the NBOME, in contrast, accepted millions in loans and doubled down on their investment - even going as far as to hire JHU consultants, set up a temporary testing site in Fresno, etc.

this is John Gimpels legacy (in his mind). It is very sad. I am not sure if his position is up for a vote, or what, but he needs to go.
We need to realize that this is not just Gimpel. He answers to the board, and they have likely given him their full support in this ordeal. This is a systemic issue. DO schools are opening faster than GME can support them. They don’t support their students with strong clinical opportunities, they teach outdated and worthless modalities (WE LEARN CRANIAL MANIPULATION FOR GODS SAKE), and all the while they rake in the tuition fees. This is not to say that MD schools don’t do the same, but on average the DO schools are worse. And now we have an extra test. This is not a sustainable trajectory long term.
 
The NBME canceling CS deals a devastating blow to the PE and it’s proponents. There have been movements by students to eliminate the PE since it began but it’s different now that MD students are no longer required to take CS. I don’t see the public outrage over DO students being forced to take the PE going away. It’s one thing to buckle down and ride out a storm but it’s completely different when the storm is never ending, which is going to happen now that CS is gone.
 
Just finished another II at a great program my wife and I would really be happy matching at. No resident social hour last night....they had us sit in on their weekly didactics and did a resident Q&A in a breakout room.
-2 more interviews (both next week) then I'm done!

Anyway....the PD is well aware that NBOME refuses to cancel PE. She's a faculty member at a DO school and is also aware of the timeline crunch our class will have with delayed PE dates and the need to finish Level 3 by the end of PGY-1. I flat out told her I was considering just taking Step 3 since COMLEX series was not required in the state her program is in. She didn't seem surprised by that at all.
 
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Everyone needs to be contacting anyone they know in the AOA as well as tagging them in social media that if the AOA does not advocate for students against the NBOME that we will all be avoiding AOA specialty licensure at the end of residency. They are barely clinging to life as an organization already. They need to know that if they side with the NBOME that we will remember that forever. They can attempt to save themselves or they can scuttle their own ship.

Make it heard that you will sink them by avoiding AOA board certification. They cannot exist as an organization without physician members or money from annual fees. They are about to lose thousands of AOA members as the old DOs that were forced into DO boarding die. They are all mostly that age. Tell them that if they support the NBOME extorting $1300 out of students that they will lose far more than that from those same students when they have an easy choice to take MD boards and leave osteopathic organizations behind forever.

Speak up.
 
Everyone needs to be contacting anyone they know in the AOA as well as tagging them in social media that if the AOA does not advocate for students against the NBOME that we will all be avoiding AOA specialty licensure at the end of residency. They are barely clinging to life as an organization already. They need to know that if they side with the NBOME that we will remember that forever. They can attempt to save themselves or they can scuttle their own ship.

Make it heard that you will sink them by avoiding AOA board certification. They cannot exist as an organization without physician members or money from annual fees. They are about to lose thousands of AOA members as the old DOs that were forced into DO boarding die. They are all mostly that age. Tell them that if they support the NBOME extorting $1300 out of students that they will lose far more than that from those same students when they have an easy choice to take MD boards and leave osteopathic organizations behind forever.

Speak up.
Oh I think regardless of what they choose to do I'm just going to take Step 3. I gotta look into it a but more but of the states that require COMLEX I have 2 but my highest rank will be like 7 or 8 so not likely. Personally I see a lot of other med students taking that route now, if even just to avoid OMM on the exam. Honestly that's the worst part of the COMLEX series
 
Everyone needs to be contacting anyone they know in the AOA as well as tagging them in social media that if the AOA does not advocate for students against the NBOME that we will all be avoiding AOA specialty licensure at the end of residency. They are barely clinging to life as an organization already. They need to know that if they side with the NBOME that we will remember that forever. They can attempt to save themselves or they can scuttle their own ship.

Make it heard that you will sink them by avoiding AOA board certification. They cannot exist as an organization without physician members or money from annual fees. They are about to lose thousands of AOA members as the old DOs that were forced into DO boarding die. They are all mostly that age. Tell them that if they support the NBOME extorting $1300 out of students that they will lose far more than that from those same students when they have an easy choice to take MD boards and leave osteopathic organizations behind forever.

Speak up.
I don't even understand how this complex ecology of alphabet-soup orgs interact with each other--what boards does the AOA certify? Can DOs be certified by either the ACGME or the AOA in their specialty? could any of this remotely matter to patients when trainees themselves don't understand it?
 
I don't even understand how this complex ecology of alphabet-soup orgs interact with each other--what boards does the AOA certify? Can DOs be certified by either the ACGME or the AOA in their specialty? could any of this remotely matter to patients when trainees themselves don't understand it?
It is all redundant. The system is outdated, and it is hard to see the AOA surviving long term.
 
I don't even understand how this complex ecology of alphabet-soup orgs interact with each other--what boards does the AOA certify? Can DOs be certified by either the ACGME or the AOA in their specialty? could any of this remotely matter to patients when trainees themselves don't understand it?
Idk if those were rhetorical questions but DO residents in DO residencies pre-merger got boarded by osteopathic boards (AOA). Now all training is ACGME so we can all say no to DO boards. ACOOG versus ACOG, for example. The AOA is effectively a lame duck org. The question is about how long will it take to die. If they don't help us and we publicize that then they will die faster by med students realizing they shouldn't give money to AOA. Most people didn't need this motivation as there are preceding reasons not to get DO boarded but this is like a nail in the coffin.

These guys at the AOA are trying to milk a few more easy years until retirement. They can help the NBOME collect $1300 and lose years off that gravy train or they can help us against the NBOME and get the chance not to die an even quicker death. They don't get any money from us by being silent and they don't get any extra money by helping the NBOME make money off of us.

Gotta speak in ways these old boomer jerks understand. They want a cush golden parachute. We can help ensure they don't get that. It's time to tear up the osteopathic cabal. They have been holding good young physicians back for too long. Time for this generation of DO physicians to join the 21st century without these parasites. This is the first step since the merger.
 
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The Compact is an additional, optional program for physicians to engage in. You have to specifically apply to it, and at that point you are held to both the standards of the compact and the standards of your home state board. It is *not* a true interstate integration of Licensure, but rather allows *certain physicians that meet certain requirements within a given state expedited Licensure in others.* As an example, half of psychiatrists in each of the given States would not be Compact eligible, as half of psychiatrists, give or take, are not board certified. Their license, despite being issued by a Compact state, is not Compact eligible, as they do not met Compact Licensure requirements. Furthermore, aside from speeding licensure, there are other steps in obtaining a license that can still be enforced that fall ourside of the compact, as allowed in Section 24:

Section 24. Binding effect of compact and other laws
A. Nothing in this compact prevents the enforcement of any other law of a member state that is not inconsistent with this compact.

This is the area where some states with more notorious boards and legislatures have some leeway. Pennsylvania, for instance, has certain educational requirements enshrined in state law with regard to opioid and child abuse training that one will still have to complete before being considered for a Compact license, because these laws are legislatively enshrined and not decisions of the medical board.

Regardless, this all kind of goes back to my point that the compact isn't what it should be- one national license that you apply for and get that works in every state in the Compact. It is an additional framework that allows some physicians within a state to apply for additional rights on top of their current license. You still need to pay all the fees of each state for each license, you still are held to legislative laws unique to each state, and you may well qualify for a license in one or even every state in the Compact and not be eligible for the Compact yourself. That's why it's not a true instate commerce agreement, but rather a special process that speeds the issuance of some licenses for some physicians under some circumstances of they choose to participate.

They have the same thing for nurses. It makes it slightly easier to get a license. That’s it.
 
Idk if those were rhetorical questions but DO residents in DO residencies pre-merger got boarded by osteopathic boards (AOA). Now all training is ACGME so we can all say no to DO boards. ACOOG versus ACOG, for example. The AOA is effectively a lame duck org. The question is about how long will it take to die. If they don't help us and we publicize that then they will die faster by med students realizing they shouldn't give money to AOA. Most people didn't need this motivation as there are preceding reasons not to get DO boarded but this is like a nail in the coffin.

These guys at the AOA are trying to milk a few more easy years until retirement. They can help the NBOME collect $1300 and lose years off that gravy train or they can help us against the NBOME and get the chance not to die an even quicker death. They don't get any money from us by being silent.

Gotta speak in ways these old boomer jerks understand. They want a cush golden parachute. We can help ensure they don't get that. It's time to tear up the osteopathic cabal. They have been holding good young physicians back for too long. Time for this generation of DO physicians to join the 21st century without these parasites. This is the first step since the merger.

Yeah. Literally all these boomers care about is their wallets.
 
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