Addressing PE

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ChicagoBear said:
A few thoughts:

1. Regarding the Freeport case cited above: The NBOME is a not for profit association, not a government body or agency or a public university. The First Amendment only prohibits governmental action that inhibits free speech. As a result, any argument about first amendment rights will fail. You would need a different argument for any successful lawsuit.

2. If the the NBOME recorded the meeting as someone mentioned above, it did so with the intent that the NBOME would control whether or not the contents of the meeting would be released - not the other participants. In all likelihood, neither the NBOME or the "dear doctor" gave anyone permission to record and publish the meeting. I know many people videotape almost everything and upload it - but in two party states, the legality of this can be a complicated matter highly dependent on specific facts. Just because objections aren't raised all of the time doesn't mean an objection can't be made.

3. Regarding the story that the Illinois Supreme Court overturned the state wiretap law: What wasn't posted was that within weeks, the Illinois Legislature passed a revised law to address the Court's concern. (The old law made taping law enforcement officers in public illegal. The new law allows taping of officers in public, but as an offset creates some exceptions to the requirements for law enforcement to obtain warrants for wire tapping citizens. It does not otherwise change the two party consent rule.)

4. As far as schools throwing around "professionalism" charges, tread carefully. Courts rarely get involved in school grading disputes or the professional opinions of licensing boards. They only get involved if a school or licensing body violates its own "due process" procedures - they are hesitant to substitute their judgement for that of the faculty or licensing board.

As a soon to be MD, I have no dog in this fight, but I feel for my "Bone Wizard Brethren", just be careful. I'm not a lawyer, but a family member has been involved a couple of times with the intricacies of two party consent. His words of advise: It's not as black and white as you think; the outcome is highly fact specific; just because everyone does it, is not an excuse; I can show you how to make 6 figures disappear quickly.
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If the intent of the video was to be shared with a school's students the right of those at the school to record it is the issue. There is a strong argument to be made that it was a public communication and that privacy should not be expected, as has been made in other situations in the past
 
lancefielder said:
Yup, just another vague, blue ball, press release that excoriates themselves as the culpable party and shifts blame on everyone but themselves. It's not surprising and yet another attempt at "listening," a skill that Gimpel and Co. might've been able to have if he had just only taken COMLEX Level 2 PE. This is just fluff, I expect nothing to change.
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This.
 
Probably an announcement about their Fresno site opening, dates opening up, etc., or possibly something about a site somewhere in the South opening like that previous poster said. Don't get too excited, they are actively hiring SPs in IL and PA.

Join me in writing letters about the dangers of the NBOME's actions in regards to the pandemic (esp. with new COVID variants circulating, how we all work closely with COVID patients, etc.) to Congressmen in the State of California, City of Fresno, Fresno County government officials, and Fresno County Health Dept., along with state licensing boards and similar parties in Illinois and Pennsylvania, and sending them out next week. Write to representatives in your own states too. Both emails AND physical letters. Your career is worth spending a few bucks on stamps for. The AOA, NBOME, COCA, and our schools do not care about us. We will not get any recourse with them. They do not care if we go unmatched and are stuck with hundreds of thousands of inescapable debt. They do not care about how many people they will kill by forcing all of us to travel cross-country for this meaningless test. We have to go over their heads to have any chance at all.

Spread the word.
 
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dabo52 said:
We will see. Gimpel is going to lose a lot of money from students deciding to take USMLE Step 3 so I don’t think he has won yet.
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So while it is easy to focus our anger on Gimpel, we should not spare the NBOME board our disgust. Never forget that this entire fiasco is because of the ineptitude of the entire organization. For those of you who just joined this fight, keep up the pressure through whatever channel you see fit. They will likely lose some money over this ordeal, but they will continue to make fortunes in federal student loan money from their test series. The email changes nothing. In fact, they should be ridiculed MORE for taking this long to do basic **** like communicating with students weekly. The only email that will ever matter is the one that says that PE is canceled permanently or that a single licensing test is being developed.
 
It's funny. He really added a new dimension here. Smarmy and unscrupulous are his default communication settings but this added a melancholy element. I'm digging this EMO Gimpel. I hope his feelings just keep getting hurt so he truly understands the visceral hate I have for him and maybe like 3 other people max on earth.
 
cbc86 said:
So while it is easy to focus our anger on Gimpel, we should not spare the NBOME board our disgust. Never forget that this entire fiasco is because of the ineptitude of the entire organization. For those of you who just joined this fight, keep up the pressure through whatever channel you see fit. They will likely lose some money over this ordeal, but they will continue to make fortunes in federal student loan money from their test series. The email changes nothing. In fact, they should be ridiculed MORE for taking this long to do basic **** like communicating with students weekly. The only email that will ever matter is the one that says that PE is canceled permanently or that a single licensing test is being developed.
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Correct. Old Greta is public enemy #2 in my eyes. She is even more pretentious than he is IMO.
 
/Satire

Probably going to announce door-to-door testing. They'll bring the OMM table, SP, PPE, and evaluator. You can test in the safety of your own home - it will revolutionize DO student evaluations. It will result in a slightly higher testing price of $4000. "thank you for your support during this difficult time for the NBOME."
 
In addition to my previous post, join me in writing to individual state medical societies (allopathic and osteopathic), licensing boards in the 5 weird states, medical specialty and professional societies like AAEM (again, both allopathic and osteopathic), the AMA (long shot I know, but they have a huge audience), and the AOA itself. Make it VERY clear to the osteopathic orgs in your letters that you will refuse to join them or support them in any way once you are out of school if they remain silent on this issue. We've got nothing to lose by trying. Again, both emails and physical letters. YOUR CAREER IS WORTH SPENDING A FEW BUCKS ON STAMPS FOR.

Spread the word.
 
Noisewater-TDX said:
/Satire

Probably going to announce door-to-door testing. They'll bring the OMM table, SP, PPE, and evaluator. You can test in the safety of your own home - it will revolutionize DO student evaluations. It will result in a slightly higher testing price of $4000. "thank you for your support during this difficult time for the NBOME."
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I'm down. That would be great negotiating by the NBOME. Best us down to accept their real offer after their fake offer irritates us.

They behave like a used car salesmen but worse so that's not out of the question.
 
Jackaleauxpe said:
In addition to my previous post, join me in writing to individual state medical societies (allopathic and osteopathic), licensing boards in the 5 weird states, medical specialty and professional societies like AAEM (again, both allopathic and osteopathic), the AMA (long shot I know, but they have a huge audience), and the AOA itself. Make it VERY clear to the osteopathic orgs in your letters that you will refuse to join them or support them in any way once you are out of school if they remain silent on this issue. We've got nothing to lose by trying. Again, both emails and physical letters. YOUR CAREER IS WORTH SPENDING A FEW BUCKS ON STAMPS FOR.

Spread the word.
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Perhaps a template and some email addresses would help this cause?
 
cbc86 said:
Perhaps a template and some email addresses would help this cause?
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I've seen a couple on Reddit. They wouldn't need much work to turn into common letters that we can just plug and chug emails and physical addresses into. I'll probably look at them on Sunday. One could even use a pseudonym if they don't want to use their real name.
 
I’m not hopeful anything is going to change because the SOB highlighted “in no way compromise” in the email.... I wonder if that is code for “in no way get rid of the COMLEX 2-PE” and the rest of the email is basically saying we are trying to think of a way to keep the PE and not have everyone hate us.
 
BatmanDO9 said:
I’m not hopeful anything is going to change because the SOB highlighted “in no way compromise” in the email.... I wonder if that is code for “in no way get rid of the COMLEX 2-PE” and the rest of the email is basically saying we are trying to think of a way to keep the PE and not have everyone hate us.
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This line of reasoning is most likely correct. What really kills me is how he goes nuts on how important this test is for patient safety... it blows my mind. Can you imagine...? The PE somehow being associated with public safety in any way???
 
NBOME needs to be prosecuted with criminal charges for infecting and endangering hundreds of thousands if not millions of people with covid 19 and variant exposure to justify their trash exam
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Calling it now. They will allow us to take Level 3 out of sequence, BUT, they will still require PE to complete the series and get a license. And then they will try and do a victory lap as if it fixes anything lol
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Ugh i hate NBOME so much. Bunch of evil greedy sociopaths
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Calling it now. They will allow us to take Level 3 out of sequence, BUT, they will still require PE to complete the series and get a license. And then they will try and do a victory lap as if it fixes anything lol
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Why can't states be forced to drop PE requirement?
 
Lawpy said:
Why can't states be forced to drop PE requirement?
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There is no PE requirement imposed by any state. It’s required because the laws say you have to complete the USMLE or COMLEX series (or some phrasing that says NBME/NBOME, etc) and currently the PE is part of the series. If it’s removed as part of the series there is no issue with licensure.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Calling it now. They will allow us to take Level 3 out of sequence, BUT, they will still require PE to complete the series and get a license. And then they will try and do a victory lap as if it fixes anything lol
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We can work with the NBOME and AOA on that in the longer term if they did decide to do that. It would mean that the classes of '22 and '23 would not be in danger of not matching/not being able to graduate for not having a passing score and would keep us competitive with MD applicants. The smallest of steps forward, but still a step.
 
Song I wrote to the tune of Taylor Swift's "You Belong With Me"


"Cancel the PE"

Gimple on the phone with MedTwitter
They're upset, They're going off about something that you said
'Cause MDs don't get your tests like DOs do.

I'm in clinic, it's a typical Tuesday night.
I'm listening to the kind of patient the PE doesn't like.
And tests will never handle this patient like I do.

But Gimple wears nice suits
I wear short coats
He's CEO
And I'm in the poorhouse
Dreaming about the day when he wakes up and find
That canceling this test was the best idea of all time.

If you could see
That I'm the one
Who can't afford you.
Been in-debt all along.
So, why can't you see
Cancel the PE,
Cancel the PE.

Gather in a building with swarms of other DO trainees
I can't help thinking this is how it shouldn't be.
Warning the public about COVID thinking to myself,
"Hey, isn't this hypocrisy?"

And Gimple got a frown
That could encite MedTwitter now.
I haven't seen it in a while
Since MDs brought him down.

You say MDs bad I know them better than that.
Hey, what we doing with a test like that?

Gimple wears nice suits
I wear short coats
He's CEO
And I'm in the poorhouse
Dreaming about the day when he wakes up and find
That canceling this test was the best idea of all time.

If you could see
That I'm the one
Who can't afford you.
Been in-debt all along.
So, why can't you see
Cancel the PE,
Cancel the PE.

Standing by and waiting for your updates.
All this time how could you not know, baby?
Cancel the PE,
Cancel the PE.

[Osteopathic Instrumental]

Oh, I remember you emailing my school
In the middle of Friday night.
Money's the one who makes you laugh
When you know you're 'bout to cry.
I know PE's your spawn,
And you tell me about your dreams.
Think I know what you should do,
It's Cancel the PE.

Can't you see
That I'm the one
Who can't afford you.
Been in-debt all along.
So, why can't you see
Cancel the PE,
Cancel the PE.

Standing by and waiting for your updates.
All this time how could you not know, baby?
Cancel the PE,
Cancel the PE.

Cancel the PE

Have you ever thought just maybe
Cancel the PE?
Cancel the PE.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Calling it now. They will allow us to take Level 3 out of sequence, BUT, they will still require PE to complete the series and get a license. And then they will try and do a victory lap as if it fixes anything lol
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Well if they did this we would all just take step 3 good buddy!
 
cbc86 said:
This line of reasoning is most likely correct. What really kills me is how he goes nuts on how important this test is for patient safety... it blows my mind. Can you imagine...? The PE somehow being associated with public safety in any way???
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It is related to public safety in that it is endangering public safety by making us, likely future residents with direct exposure to COVID+ patients, come in from wherever to take the test in our clear, non-n95 masks and getting uncomfortably close to our SPs for the sake of OMM
 
If any of you can write, this would be a hell of a story to send in to medscape or even a journal like JAMA. Summarize all that has happened over the last year, make the case for cancelling PE and send it as a letter to the editor.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
There is no PE requirement imposed by any state. It’s required because the laws say you have to complete the USMLE or COMLEX series (or some phrasing that says NBME/NBOME, etc) and currently the PE is part of the series. If it’s removed as part of the series there is no issue with licensure.
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Thoughts on changing the laws to get rid of COMLEX entirely and only keep USMLE?
 
It’s funny. If a regular person read this e-mail, with no idea what’s going on, they’ll still be able to deduce the ****ty intentions behind it
 
Lawpy said:
Thoughts on changing the laws to get rid of COMLEX entirely and only keep USMLE?
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I doubt any of us wouldn't be in support of this. There's no reason why the state licensing boards should have a preference for COMLEX over USMLE. As long as both exist, a physician should be able to achieve licensure through either. It doesn't really make any sense that I can't get a license in FL when I've taken step 1, will be taking step 2, and could just take step 3.
 
Jackaleauxpe said:
By emailing details of the story to individual journalists who might want to pick it up there could be a chance. Just sending tweets about it at random media outlets won't do anything.
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What about contacting news websites that your average person is more likely to browse like Yahoo or Google News or even Buzzfeed? It might help in enraging the public and then it might get picked up by a bigger news outlet
 
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the message from the NBOME is contradictory and weak in that Gimple claimed he cannot unilaterally make the decision to cancel the COMLEX PE, but in the previous email, he unilaterally decided to announce that he would not cancel the COMLEX PE.

Gimple needs to own it, and make the decision that is what leaders do. what great leaders do is that they make positive decisions by genuinely listening to his/her colleagues. Gimple failed to do both of these at this time.

I am remaining hopeful that our student organizations and current physicians as well as Dr. Mike will try their best to cancel the COMLEX PE.
 
penpineappleapplepen said:
the message from the NBOME is contradictory and weak in that Gimple claimed he cannot unilaterally make the decision to cancel the COMLEX PE, but in the previous email, he unilaterally decided to announce that he would not cancel the COMLEX PE.

Gimple needs to own it, and make the decision that is what leaders do. what great leaders do is that they make positive decisions by genuinely listening to his/her colleagues. Gimple failed to do both of these at this time.

I am remaining hopeful that our student organizations and current physicians as well as Dr. Mike will try their best to cancel the COMLEX PE.
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If Dr. Mike wanted to truly help, he'd make a video, even if it was posted to his 2nd channel. He's instead only claimed to look into things on our behalf.
 
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