Arbitrary Grade Cut Offs: Your Opinion

[ReadyBeVet]

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I was just curious of your previous experience and thoughts on arbitrary grade cut offs. In one of my classes this semester, only 40-50% of students could earn an A or a B.

Going into the final, the average for the class was 80%. I have performed above this average to this point. I am certain that the professor will have to 'curve-down' when he goes to do the grades this week. I think in an effort to avoid the backlash that curving down would bring- the final was exceptionally brutal. In essence, we all performed so badly that there will be no need to curve. Things may have balanced out.

So- have you taken a class with a limit on the # of A/B's??
Do you think it is fair?

Discuss.

 

[zxz130]

Yep, in fact I was in a lab class (maybe that doesn't count then 😕) that was done by Z-Scores. Which is essentially means everyone is fit more or less into a bell curve. Although the center of the curve was a B, so if you had an average score then you would get a B.

 

[HopefulAg]

Never taken a class with a limit on numbers of As and Bs, and it most certainly is not fair to have such a limit.

 

[DVMDream]

Never taken a class with a limit on numbers of As and Bs, and it most certainly is not fair to have such a limit.

Agreed. If you put in the effort/work to get that high grade then you deserve that grade; same thing goes if you do not put in enough work and get a low grade that is the grade you deserve.

 

[ReadyBeVet]

I guess I didn't add my opinion fully in my original post:

I'm infuriated over the entire thing. If I have earned an 80% in the class, I want a B or B-. Not a C. Not cool!

I'm a non-trad and am going back to finish my few remaining pre-reqs. I'm trying to prove that I can do well in my classes. When a teacher has an arbitrary grade limit, I find it unfair. The vet schools aren't seeing my actual performance. Only my performance based on others. Maybe I should have taken the class with more stupid people? lol 😱

 

[jtom]

I have never taken a class with grade limits nor have even heard of curving down before. I do think its unfair as I would put in so much time and effort into my grades and then have them grade me down.

Im hoping this grading policy is not universal with all courses at your university.

 

[Coquette22]

Luckily no. I hate the practice with a passion. I see no point to it.

The only time I've had grades adjusted was a statistics class with a final exam that was way too long for it's allotted time. The students complained, and after marking the exams, the professors decided to scale the marks up.

 

[scb44f]

I'm not sure if it's in his syllabus but one professor in my department specifically states that the top whatever % gets an A, and so on and so forth. I wouldn't hate it if it was specified, but I did hate how another professor I had for 3 classes graded. I had a one hour ethics class with him, went into the final with an A, and got a D in the class. Tell me how that one works. His grading system is supposedly 90, 80, 70, etc. I don't believe it. I would've had to get something like a 40% on the final to get that grade (because there were only 3 grades in the class: a midterm, a final, and one homework assignment).

Anyway, it is frustrating but it only worked against me in that one class.

 

[ReadyBeVet]

I have never taken a class with grade limits nor have even heard of curving down before. I do think its unfair as I would put in so much time and effort into my grades and then have them grade me down.

Im hoping this grading policy is not universal with all courses at your university.

No, it is only the policy in the physics department. 👎 Thank goodness- I wouldn't know what to do if it happened in all of my classes!

SCB44f: It was in the syllabus, but in most semesters it is used as a scale to curve upward due to poor performance by the class as a whole. In this case, the majority of the class has understood the material and has done well. Why should we be punished for understanding the material and putting forth a lot of effort? *sigh* Am scared to see my grade. I got a 50% on the final! Yet went into the final with an 85%.

 

[HopefulAg]

Maybe I should have taken the class with more stupid people? lol 😱

And this is exactly why arbitrary grade cut offs are bull****. Not all classes are going to be equal in the spread of intelligence of those taking them. In a theoretical class you may have a C currently but, with the same score, had gotten an A in the next semester. Or hell, the next section of the same class even!

 

[deleted266066]

.

 

[Minnerbelle]

My entire school had a grade deflation policy where any 100- to 200- level course (which includes ALL prereqs for vet school) with over 12 students can't have an average grade exceeding a 3.33

I don't think it mattered too much for the science courses though, since those generally never had averages over that anyway.

Edit: come to think of it, my writing professor told the class on the first day that we should all take his class pass/fail (pass = C and up) because he's only given out 2 A's in his entire career. Sadly... I had to take it for a grade since it was a pre-req and that was a bit devastating.

 

[that70sfan11]

Definitely not fair. What if it was a super easy class and everyone was making A's on everything? so what, the people with the lowest As fail the class?? that's the stupidest thing I ever heard.

it's especially not fair in the sense that for a lot of classes, a D is a failing grade. thus, that means you are failing, what.. 1/3 of the class? (I don't remember the bell curve scale right now, but its still too big of a number to fail the class).

anyway, that's just dumb dumb dumb. curving should only be done up!

 

[No Imagination]

Time to find a new school IMO.

And no, a Vet school isn't really going to care so much about your class rank as they will about your GPA. I find that notion of 'normalizing' disgusting, and it only shows that the professor has no idea how to write a good/fair exam.

The whole idea of 'curving' is in my opinion wrong, as a professor with a large class size, who knows what they are doing, should be able to write an exam of appropriate difficulty, IE. 10% A's, 70% B's, C's, 20% D's and 10% F's.

If the teacher can teach properly, explain their expectations, and write a "Good" exam, those numbers will just 'Happen', and if the class shocks him (with 80% A's) then he has to either congratulate the class, or reevaluate the exam. But not normalize to fit his/her perverted idea of where the class should be.

 

[jtom]

On your vet application can you state for such and such a class the grades were curved down etc?

 

[luvgoldens482]

The whole idea of 'curving' is in my opinion wrong, as a professor with a large class size, who knows what they are doing, should be able to write an exam of appropriate difficulty, IE. 10% A's, 70% B's, C's, 20% D's and 10% F's.

👍

 

[ReadyBeVet]

Time to find a new school IMO.

And no, a Vet school isn't really going to care so much about your class rank as they will about your GPA. I find that notion of 'normalizing' disgusting, and it only shows that the professor has no idea how to write a good/fair exam.

The whole idea of 'curving' is in my opinion wrong, as a professor with a large class size, who knows what they are doing, should be able to write an exam of appropriate difficulty, IE. 10% A's, 70% B's, C's, 20% D's and 10% F's.

If the teacher can teach properly, explain their expectations, and write a "Good" exam, those numbers will just 'Happen', and if the class shocks him (with 80% A's) then he has to either congratulate the class, or reevaluate the exam. But not normalize to fit his/her perverted idea of where the class should be.

Believe me- I know! My first undergraduate degree and profession were in the realm of Education. I taught for several years and this teaching practice makes no sense to me from a pedagogy standpoint.

It is an excellent university- the best choice by far in my area. It has more than one health/professional school: MD/PharmD/DMD. No chance finding another school for just this one class with a ridiculous departmental policy.

 

[Coquette22]

If the teacher can teach properly, explain their expectations, and write a "Good" exam, those numbers will just 'Happen', and if the class shocks him (with 80% A's) then he has to either congratulate the class, or reevaluate the exam. But not normalize to fit his/her perverted idea of where the class should be.

That's my experience. The professors at my university often show us the distribution of marks after an exam and they're usually amazingly normal without any alteration. My Evolution professor told us, "I make about 60% of the exam fairly easy, so that most people can pass. If you want a better mark than that though, the other questions are harder and require more thought and understanding." His work was always very fair.

 

[VeganSoprano]

If a class involves, in Dave Berry's words, "Known Facts and Right Answers", then there ought to be a published grading scale with the minimum average grade needed to attain each letter grade. The prof may relax these standards so more people get better grades but s/he may not make them tougher. So a 90 in this case will definitely earn an A, but if it's a tough class then an 88 might be enough. You just can't bank on it.

Personally, I liked the way my high school did things. We got number grades. An 89 wasn't as good as a 90 but it was still a good grade. There was no need for inflation or bell curves or the fundamental unfairness of one point meaning a whole letter grade difference.

But then, I personally think grades are kind of overrated anyway!

 

[BlacKAT33]

I'm not sure if it's in his syllabus but one professor in my department specifically states that the top whatever % gets an A, and so on and so forth. .

i had a class like this. top 8% A's, next 20% B's, huge percentage of C's and last 10% D's....or something like this. i dont remember the exact percentages. but he did say that if more than 8% of students score in the 90s he would scale them down so it fits his markings. i actually hated this prof and i dropped the course in the first week and signed up for bchem the next semester. he ended up getting fired the next year from several complaints of students

 

[hrtracy]

Hey guys, I totally agree that these strange grading policies are unfair...however, as someone who has taught college level classes and been close to others that make their own syllabus, I've found teachers who will do this same thing. I asked why it was being done this way and the answer was pretty much 'well if you tell them that only the top 30% will get A's and B's, then they try harder' It may be screwy logic, but I can sort of see the point. I don't think it should be the job of the professor to make the students compete for grades...I'm of the camp that students should compete against themselves and strive for a personal best and above all learn the material to the best of their ability, even if it means they only get a C. Good luck with this particular class/prof. and luckily this is not too common.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Time to find a new school IMO.

sadly, i graduated 2 years ago. 😛

not that i believe in it one way or the other, but here's the official word on why the deflation policy was set:

- The ultimate purpose of these measures is to insure the College's commitment to excellence.
- The inflation and compression of grades that has occurred obscure vital distinctions in performance.
- Current grading practices are inconsistent with the College’s legislated standards.
- Inflated grades may indicate that students are not being adequately challenged.
- The inflation of our grades relative to other institutions undermines our credibility and reputation.
- The disparity in grades between different departments penalizes students majoring in lower-grading fields and gives students misleading information about their abilities and achievements.

i do understand this to some degree. there are some schools, where it just seems like EVERYONE has at least a 3.8 GPA... and it does make you want to roll your eyes when you hear people from these schools talk about their grades. apparently, swelles was getting there too, which is why the policy was adopted.

it did kind of suck sometimes, especially given that almost all science courses have mandatory labs attached to them (and hence I had to take 16 labs), but i can't complain because employers and vet schools never questioned my academic abilities despite my average GPA... i know people with pretty low GPAs who've gotten into very respectable med schools as well.

and it wasn't like there would be easy courses where everyone would get 90s and the prof would curve down (or at least not in any of my courses). it was more like the exams/labs would be ridiculously difficult so that it was challenging for everyone. not many people got A's, but then again, the criteria for an A was:

"students who meet with conspicuous excellence every demand that can fairly be made by the course"

sounds rather difficult to achieve... and hence why i only have a few on my transcript (and i'm goddam proud of them!)

 

[laurafinn]

So- have you taken a class with a limit on the # of A/B's??

My vet school does this for all its classes. Of the people who hit the minimum pass mark, the top third get A's, the middle third get B's and the lowest third get C's, more or less.

It doesn't bother me too much, and I think it's fair enough.

 

[svendenhowser]

Argh I HATE scaling/bell curving/whatever you want to call it. We just have 50-64% = 4/pass, 65-74% = 5/credit, 75-84% = 6/distinction and 85%+ = 7/high distinction. If I get 85% I don't want to be scaled down to a 6 because everyone got 85%+, that is so unfair! The lecturer/coordinator should be at blame for the crappy exam, not us 🙁

 

[HopefulAg]

My vet school does this for all its classes. Of the people who hit the minimum pass mark, the top third get A's, the middle third get B's and the lowest third get C's, more or less.

At least in vet school it doesn't matter too much (except in terms of residency). But doing it to pre-professionals can destroy them, since both med and vet (and I suppose dental/pharma) schools are heavily GPA based.

Under such a system, you'd pretty much have to game it so as to offset the A you got that was actually an F.

 

[Trilt]

In one of my classes, the prof. set it so that the top 5% of students got an A+, and then curved the class up from that. So say the lowest of the top 5% has a 96 - he would get a "100" (A+) and then the rest of the course would be bumped up 4 points. It made a pretty fair grade distribution, and the one or two curve killers didn't screw everybody up. (This was an 180ish person intro class)

On the opposite hand was my orgo professor who had all class test averages in the sixties and didn't curve. Serious 👎.

 

[SocialStigma]

My orgo I class was like that, the course median ended up being 52%. Only a couple people got above 80%, the vast majority of students was in the 40-60% range. And it was not a small class either, there were 630 students.

 

[sumstorm]

our school routinely let students vote on straight grades (IE 100% = A+, 96-99 = A, 92-95 = A-) or true curves. we picked our poison, and had to be ok with that.

 

[BlacKAT33]

our school routinely let students vote on straight grades (IE 100% = A+, 96-99 = A, 92-95 = A-) or true curves. we picked our poison, and had to be ok with that.

😱 what did you guys pick??? that is sooooooo hard. im glad i wont have a choice. if i did, id probably be blaming myself every time the grades came around and i realized the opposite grading strategy would have been better

 

[Coquette22]

We use numeric and letters, so there's a conversion scale for each department (although they're all very similar). The professor has to give us their grading scale and marking scheme at the beginning of the term and has to stick to it. An exam can be scaled up if a class does especially badly, but not scaled down if they do well.

Standard is:
A+ = 90-100
A = 85-89.9
A- = 80-84.9
B+ = 75-79.9
B = 70-74.9
B- = 65-69.9
C+ = 62-64.9
C = 58-61.9
C- = 55-57.9
D = 50-54.9
F = <50

 

[sumstorm]

Standard is:
A+ = 90-100
A = 85-89.9
A- = 80-84.9
B+ = 75-79.9
B = 70-74.9
B- = 65-69.9
C+ = 62-64.9
C = 58-61.9
C- = 55-57.9
D = 50-54.9
F = <50

That scale makes me incredibly jealous! I could have been a 4.0 student 🙁

For the most part, classes selected straight scales, rather than curves. Exception was organic. and one class tried it for biology, but the class wasn't happy about it. We didn't have grade inflation (part of the schools reputation.)

 

[No Imagination]

We use numeric and letters, so there's a conversion scale for each department (although they're all very similar). The professor has to give us their grading scale and marking scheme at the beginning of the term and has to stick to it. An exam can be scaled up if a class does especially badly, but not scaled down if they do well.

Standard is:
A+ = 90-100
A = 85-89.9
A- = 80-84.9
B+ = 75-79.9
B = 70-74.9
B- = 65-69.9
C+ = 62-64.9
C = 58-61.9
C- = 55-57.9
D = 50-54.9
F = <50

I don't mean to bash your school - I honestly am not doing that! But that is the most ridiculous 'scale' I've ever seen... 70 = B?! wtf?

 

[gilch]

The only classes I've had that curved down was organic chem lab. I think 50% of the class was required to have a B- or better with no more than a certain percentage being As. It made no difference in my classes--we had a standard 90-92 as A-, ect. In one of my friends lab's, 95-96 was an A-! Apparently, their TA was awesome and everyone did really well so they were all paying for it.

 

[HopefulAg]

Shoot, failing is a C. I could've had a B in Pharmacology off that scale, and my average would've been something like a 3.7.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Forced curves are a crutch for professors who can't write quality assignments. If assignments are made sufficiently challenging in the first place, there's no need to deflate grades.

The worst grade I got in Biology was because a certain idiot felt the need to force a curve on a summer field study. Never mind that there were only 3 assignments (journal, midterm, final), and never mind that I was working as a TA and photographer for the trip in addition to taking the class with everyone else - only 5 people out of the 20 got A's, and I wasn't one of them. We all put in the same effort and got the same grades on the exams, so he ended up forcing himself to make inconsistent subjective decisions when grading the journal so he could force people out of the A group.

Coquette, that scale is wacky! I assume that profs are expected to write really hard exams to make up for it?

 

[DVMDream]

Standard is:
A+ = 90-100
A = 85-89.9
A- = 80-84.9
B+ = 75-79.9
B = 70-74.9
B- = 65-69.9
C+ = 62-64.9
C = 58-61.9
C- = 55-57.9
D = 50-54.9
F = <50

Damn. I wish we had that scale I would have 4.0 right now. That is insane. A 65 is a D here; and a B there. 😱

 

[Coquette22]

Coquette, that scale is wacky! I assume that profs are expected to write really hard exams to make up for it?

It's hard for me to say, since I've only been to my school and one other one, and by my account, my current school is much harder. Median grades usually come out around a B-.

Here's the OMSAS scale, where most of the Canadian schools fall in terms of GPA. http://www.ouac.on.ca/omsas/pdf/c_omsas_b.pdf

 

[parietal]

It's hard for me to say, since I've only been to my school and one other one, and by my account, my current school is much harder. Median grades usually come out around a B-.

Here's the OMSAS scale, where most of the Canadian schools fall in terms of GPA. http://www.ouac.on.ca/omsas/pdf/c_omsas_b.pdf

Canadian grading systems have never made sense to me.

You guys can get negative points on tests or something, right? That's what makes the numerical averages so much lower?

 

[DVMDream]

Canadian grading systems have never made sense to me.

You guys can get negative points on tests or something, right? That's what makes the numerical averages so much lower?

Negative points on tests....Is that for when you spell your name wrong? 😛

 

[mhlaur]

That above scale is not typical for most Canadian schools. They are more like the following where 65 is a C or C-.

A+ 90-100
A 85-89
A- 80-84
B+ 77-79
B 73-76
B- 70-72
C+ 67-69
C 63-66
C- 60-62
D 50-59
F 0-49

Or:

A+ 92 - 100 Excellent performance 4.33
A 88 - 91.5 4
A- 85 - 87.5 3.67
B+ 82 - 84.5 Good performance 3.33
B 78 - 81.5 3
B- 75 - 77.5 2.67
C+ 72 - 74.5 Satisfactory performance 2.33
C 68 - 71.5 2
C- 65 - 67.5 1.67
D 55 - 64.5 1
.F 0 - 54.5.. .

 

[BlacKAT33]

i dont care which canadian scale is used...they are both better than the scales at my university lol i think the only class that may have had similar grades to this was organic chem where the avg was in the 50s and they curved

 

[luplodw]

I've had classes where 100-93= A 92-85= B and so on (7 point scale)

 

[DVMDream]

i dont care which canadian scale is used...they are both better than the scales at my university lol i think the only class that may have had similar grades to this was organic chem where the avg was in the 50s and they curved

Agreed. Both scales are better than what was used at my university as well. With the latter scale I would have around a 3.8-3.9. The only class I had where the grades were cuved at all was my parasitology class. The average was really, really low (35%). So, I got a B in the class with my (50ish%).

Then, there was my calc class where I had a solid A the entire semester (so did a lot of the students) so he made the third exam (the one right before finals) insanely difficult and everyone failed. Dropped my grade down to a B. 😡 I was kind of upset but I think I have gotten over it now.

Then there was Ochem II where I worked my butt off for an A, because I knew I could do it. Walked into the final with a 95%. Then, I apparently did not study for that ACS standardized final well enough and I bombed it. So I got a B in that class as well. (I do not like standardized exams and tend to not do so well on them).

For the most part the grading at my school has been fair. With maybe an exception or two.

Our scale has always been:

90-100% = A
80-89% = B
70-79% =C
60-69% =D
59% or lower= F

We did not have modifiers (+/-) which was both good and bad.

 

[Tambotie]

Geez, same for me. I wish I had had that "Canadian" grading scale as well!!

My community college has the following:

90-100 A
80-89 B
and so on....a 10 point scale..


But the university has instituted within the last 10 years (b/c it used to be as above) the +/- system:

A = 93-100; 4.0
A- = 92-90; 3.67
B+ = 87-89; 3.33
B = 83-86; 3.00
B- = 80-82; 2.67

And so on...with no A+ by the way.

 

[Coquette22]

You guys can get negative points on tests or something, right? That's what makes the numerical averages so much lower?

Erm, no. 😛 At least, not that I've ever encountered.

 

[nyanko]

That above scale is not typical for most Canadian schools. They are more like the following where 65 is a C or C-.

That's a little more balanced towards the bottom, but still looks really inflated!

(speaking as someone who was routinely a 89-90% type and ended up with a fair bit of B's from that)

 

[BlacKAT33]

Then, there was my calc class where I had a solid A the entire semester (so did a lot of the students) so he made the third exam (the one right before finals) insanely difficult and everyone failed. Dropped my grade down to a B. 😡 I was kind of upset but I think I have gotten over it now.

me too!! my calc 2 prof was soo bad i basically skipped class and just taught myself the whole course. i had an A the entire time, went into the final with about a 92%....came out of the final with like a 79%!!!!!!!!!!!! it was insanely hard!! and i got a C!!! A to C omg that is the most 😡 ive ever been from a class!! i may have been a little cocky going into the final since i was doing so well, but come on...2 letter grades down?? it was one of those 5 questions only exam so you know, each Q was worth 20% of the final, sighhh

 

[mhlaur]

Are high school grades in the US on similar scales? Mine were always 86+ A, 73+ B, and the 4 universities I've been to were similar. But I guess if US schools are all like that, you're all being compared to each other anyway so who cares.

 

[parietal]

Are high school grades in the US on similar scales? Mine were always 86+ A, 73+ B, and the 4 universities I've been to were similar. But I guess if US schools are all like that, you're all being compared to each other anyway so who cares.

I'm a non-trad, so it's been a while, but for my high school we were generally:
94+: A
91-93: A-
88-90: B+
84-87: B
81-83: B-
etc.

Pretty much the same as U.S. college model, except some schools/departments/professors don't use shaded grades (pluses and minuses).

Erm, no. 😛 At least, not that I've ever encountered.

Ok, then. 😳 I thought I remembered reading something like that on SDN ages ago. But my brain is filled with physics and hematology and virology and med micro, so there's not much room for anything else. 🙂

Seriously, though, how the heck does that work then? Are your tests/assignments just insanely difficult? It's hard to understand how the average can be a B- when that's only two-thirds of the points offered...

 

[DVMDream]

Are high school grades in the US on similar scales? Mine were always 86+ A, 73+ B, and the 4 universities I've been to were similar. But I guess if US schools are all like that, you're all being compared to each other anyway so who cares.

The high school I went to had this same scale:

90-100% = A
80-89% = B
70-79% =C
60-69% =D
59% or lower= F

There may or may not have been +/- but anything with an A in it whether it had a minus or not was considered 4.0; I really do not remember if they had the +/- scale I really am thinking that they did not. I really did not care that much in high school; which is probably why my GPA was not as good in high school as it is now.