Are acceptances to DO schools becoming more difficult?

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mmbrink6

mmbrink6

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Is there a trend that is starting with DO schools becoming increasingly selective with accepting applicants? I understand they are easier to be accepted into than MD school for the most part, but is this not going to be the case in the next, say, 5 years or so?
 
mmbrink6 said:
Is there a trend that is starting with DO schools becoming increasingly selective with accepting applicants? I understand they are easier to be accepted into than MD school for the most part, but is this not going to be the case in the next, say, 5 years or so?
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A DO physician that I shadowed told me that when he got in in the late 1990s, the average MCAT was 22-23. Now the average is almost 27. Therefore, we should expect that trend to continue.
 
mmbrink6 said:
Is there a trend that is starting with DO schools becoming increasingly selective with accepting applicants? I understand they are easier to be accepted into than MD school for the most part, but is this not going to be the case in the next, say, 5 years or so?
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yes and yes.

It is becoming more and more competitive these days mainly due to the recession and the amount of students applying with high end grades.
 
Of course it is becoming more competitive, how is that not obvious?
 
My run split on the mile has improved over this last month. Therefore it will continue to improve for months to come.
 
Those are logical fallacies. The trend of increased admission requirements is over a long period and large sample size. Will it suddenly increase to 4.0? No, based on the nature of admissions.
 
They will probably continue to get more competitive as a whole until certain things change/happen.
 
I agree with others, competition is certainly up, even just if by sheer numbers of applicants (though GPA and MCAT averages have gone up regularly for the past 15+ years). However, MCAT scores, unlike GPA must hit a ceiling sometime. It is a curved test after all, that's the math.
 
Mosonik said:
I agree with others, competition is certainly up, even just if by sheer numbers of applicants (though GPA and MCAT averages have gone up regularly for the past 15+ years). However, MCAT scores, unlike GPA must hit a ceiling sometime. It is a curved test after all, that's the math.
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The test is curved to a 25 average but that doesn't necessarily mean anything to the schools.
 
From what I've heard, some DO schools are getting more Carribean-esque by having huge incoming classes having a markedly noticable attrition rate per semester and a struggle to find enough clerkships for whomever is left.

Say there's a bar that's set where there are 15 people applying for every seat and it goes down to 8 or 9 applicants per seat by having a much larger class size. Wouldn't this mean that more people are being accepted and, therefore, more emphasis on students just being in a certain range? The 250+ students accepted are then herded into lecture halls that look like you could host the Superbowl in. I would say that, overall, DO school admissions are more lenient now knowing that they'll get at least a year or two of tuition out of you before kicking you out.

I'm sure that sleep deprivation has hampered my logic to some extent, but that's what I've come up with.

This link has some good info:
http://www.jaoa.org/content/108/3/116.full.pdf
 
circulus vitios said:
The test is curved to a 25 average but that doesn't necessarily mean anything to the schools.
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It doesn't but it does mean that the same proportion of applicants are going to be scoring in the same region, leaving a similar applicant pool (with plateau-ing stats) to matriculate.
That is until the number of test takers scoring above a 28, for example, (67.6%) exceeds the number of seats at both MD and DO programs.
The reason DO school's accept lower is not just about the holistic approach it's about the numbers and the reality that there just isn't that many applicants with numbers above a 30 to fill the MD and DO spots.
 
JGimpel said:
From what I've heard, some DO schools are getting more Carribean-esque by having huge incoming classes having a markedly noticable attrition rate per semester and a struggle to find enough clerkships for whomever is left.

Say there's a bar that's set where there are 15 people applying for every seat and it goes down to 8 or 9 applicants per seat by having a much larger class size. Wouldn't this mean that more people are being accepted and, therefore, more emphasis on students just being in a certain range? The 250+ students accepted are then herded into lecture halls that look like you could host the Superbowl in. I would say that, overall, DO school admissions are more lenient now knowing that they'll get at least a year or two of tuition out of you before kicking you out.

I'm sure that sleep deprivation has hampered my logic to some extent, but that's what I've come up with.

This link has some good info:
http://www.jaoa.org/content/108/3/116.full.pdf
Click to expand...


Where are you hearing that at? The DO schools are doing the same thing as MD schools in terms of increasing class size. With that some more students will fail but from everything I have seen the attrition percentage has remained the same for the schools. I could only find one DO school where the attrition rate appeared a bit more excessive and there was a reason for that which I believe was done away with (this year or last year). Also with hospitals closing and class sizes increasing both MD and DO schools feel the squeeze. Maybe you think US medical schools are just becoming more "Carribean-esque"? Really it's just a sign of the changing times. Ironically some of the newer schools have set themselves up nicely while some of the older schools, both MD and DO, really aren't doing their students any favors.
 
The popular impression I've gotten is that it's getting, well, more popular. It's a little more common for people to know what a DO is, and a few people have the idea that they're a little less invasive than MDs, which is another popular trend, so demand goes up a little.
 
People get better study materials now-a-days so MCAT scores are bound to rise. In terms of GPA though, I don't think DO schools will ever be as hard as MD schools. DOs have grade replacement. That makes it infinitely easier for those that messed around during their younger years and now have their stuff together.
 
I think it depends upon a number of factors. Our own school is getting quite selective; we outperform a number of allopathic schools in terms of avg GPAs and MCATs of our matriculants. Other schools have been showing similar trends.

This is also true if the economy improves. Medicine may look less promising if, say, Finance or Computer Science jobs become more plentiful. Historically we always see a boost in applications when the economy tanks.


However, with more DO programs opening (and all for that matter), the number of qualified applicants might drop. However, this might not be a given. Using MarionCom as an example, they have to compete for ~125 qualified students in the state of IN for the same pool as does the IU schools, which seat something like 300-400 (I can't remember the exact numbers). Now, are there enough good pre-meds in IN and the surrounding state to fill both the IU and Marion seats? Actually, there appear to be. So for a new school, Marion might just end up being quite selective. Time will tell.





mmbrink6 said:
Is there a trend that is starting with DO schools becoming increasingly selective with accepting applicants? I understand they are easier to be accepted into than MD school for the most part, but is this not going to be the case in the next, say, 5 years or so?
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Goro said:
I think it depends upon a number of factors. Our own school is getting quite selective; we outperform a number of allopathic schools in terms of avg GPAs and MCATs of our matriculants. Other schools have been showing similar trends.

This is also true if the economy improves. Medicine may look less promising if, say, Finance or Computer Science jobs become more plentiful. Historically we always see a boost in applications when the economy tanks.
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That makes sense.
 
Large class sizes isn't always an issue. Kcumb seats 250 and their students appear to do pretty darn well. They also appear to renain relatively selective based on average admissions statistics.
 
By 2030, the average MCAT score for D.O schools will be a 35 😛
 
By 2050 the Emperor of the American Empire will be a D.O.
 
gonnif said:
First-year allopathic (MD) seats have been increasing and the applicant pool has been increasing at about the same rate. So while the competition, in terms of applicants per seat, has remained about the same (about 2.3 applicants per seat), the selectivity, in terms of GPA and MCAT score, have increased over the past decade.

The rate of increase for first-year osteopathic (DO) seats has been enormous with new schools, new branch campuses, and larger incoming class sizes. However, the rate of increase of the applicant pool has outpaced this growth in seats. So on the basis of applicant to seat ratio, DO school is more competitive to gain acceptance (2.7 applicants per seat if I recall). With this increase competition comes increased selectivity in terms of GPA and MCAT scores which are increasing.

While MD and DO having large rates of increase first-year seats, there has been a much lower rate for residency slots for graduates. Thus the pressure on off-shore schools to place graduates into US-based residencies programs is becoming more and more difficult.

In short

MD is becoming more selective
DO is becoming competitive
Off-shore is losing residency placement

Anyway you look at it, it is harder and harder for any applicant to become a practicing physician
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Nice summary. Sucks for off-shore kids though
 
Ost3oclast said:
Nice summary. Sucks for off-shore kids though
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Although I share you sympathy for future IMG's, I think they deserve it. They chose the "easy" way out, without considering the serious consequences awaiting them after accruing hundreds of thousands of debts.
 
i got a 33 (3.66, 3.52) and did not get accepted to an MD school, but will be attending DO school. I didnt get an interview for the DO school util April.
 
The established DO schools are becoming increasingly competitive but you should remember that there is a spectrum of competitiveness as well, one of the newer DO schools (and there are plenty!) is likely to have slightly lower standards than CCOM/PCOM/UNECOM etc.

Survivor DO
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
Although I share you sympathy for future IMG's, I think they deserve it. They chose the "easy" way out, without considering the serious consequences awaiting them after accruing hundreds of thousands of debts.
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Wow... It is suck to have a 200k student loan debt and not having anything to show for it-- and working for $15/hr on top of that ... I know someone who is going thru that now... I would not go as far to say "they (or he) deserve(s) it".
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
Although I share you sympathy for future IMG's, I think they deserve it. They chose the "easy" way out, without considering the serious consequences awaiting them after accruing hundreds of thousands of debts.
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Yeah I think its all about being informed. They clearly arent or were sooo wrapped up in MD prestige it didnt matter...
 
Drballer said:
i got a 33 (3.66, 3.52) and did not get accepted to an MD school, but will be attending DO school. I didnt get an interview for the DO school util April.
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Its a crapshoot to some degree though. My stats arent nearly as good as yours and I got 1 MD acceptance. Although its getting more competitive, it also seems random to some extent.
 
azide10 said:
Where are you hearing that at? The DO schools are doing the same thing as MD schools in terms of increasing class size. With that some more students will fail but from everything I have seen the attrition percentage has remained the same for the schools. I could only find one DO school where the attrition rate appeared a bit more excessive and there was a reason for that which I believe was done away with (this year or last year). Also with hospitals closing and class sizes increasing both MD and DO schools feel the squeeze. Maybe you think US medical schools are just becoming more "Carribean-esque"? Really it's just a sign of the changing times. Ironically some of the newer schools have set themselves up nicely while some of the older schools, both MD and DO, really aren't doing their students any favors.
Click to expand...

Give me one MD school increasing their class size to over 200 and I'll find you several times that in DO schools doing the same. If they've got enough staff and TAs/tutors to handle this many more people, kudos to them. When you're on interviews, especially the DO ones, ask what type of support a school has for someone that needs help or is falling behind.

I've seen enough and heard from enough people about this stuff; don't expect COCA or AACOM to be any more willing to publish any information about what's happened in the last 5 years (they're required to get this sort of info from all DO schools to retain their accreditation) than they've been with any other information that would show our profession in a real but bad light.

I hope that the people in the application process see that it's not only important to get in, but also and more so that they finish their degree and are able to get a residency slot that they were actually aiming for.
If you matriculate to medical school, pass your first year but, for any reason, don't graduate, you're 100% sure not to get any residency spot.

If you buy into the Caribbean model that, yes, the DO schools are beginning to follow, you may graduate with maybe 60% of your classmates and have a hard time getting into anything competitive and be glad to take all of the DO FP slots that DO students don't want. Then things will get really interesting. What's acceptable, then, for any US medical school, that 10 to 20 percent of your classmates spent over $100k to attend medical school and were dismissed? Ask around to your fellow DO students in different schools to see how many people their classes, ginormous or not, they've lost per year.

If you go DO, pass your tests with the usual Pathoma, UWorld and Savarese materials and have a grasp on the English language, you can get a Family Practice spot without even trying. Most people, though are going to be setting their sights a bit further into the competitive spectrum of specialties, and that's where the biggest crunch will be. As the ACGME takes over more and more of our leadership positions and allows anyone to apply for DO residencies, I imagine that the Caribbean and IMG students will gladly come in to fill those spots. That's where things will get even more interesting!

As always, I love being a DO, use the more evidence/common-sense OMM when I can but hate how our leadership keeps screwing up and covering it up from prospective students. I think more people are beginning to do more than look at US News & World Report when deciding on deciding where to pursue their training and maybe a few words of reality from (gasp) SDN too.

There's plenty of the DO Kool-Aid out there for everyone, just make sure you know who's putting what in it before you gulp it down.
 
JGimpel said:
Give me one MD school increasing their class size to over 200 and I'll find you several times that in DO schools doing the same. If they've got enough staff and TAs/tutors to handle this many more people, kudos to them. When you're on interviews, especially the DO ones, ask what type of support a school has for someone that needs help or is falling behind.

I've seen enough and heard from enough people about this stuff; don't expect COCA or AACOM to be any more willing to publish any information about what's happened in the last 5 years (they're required to get this sort of info from all DO schools to retain their accreditation) than they've been with any other information that would show our profession in a real but bad light.

I hope that the people in the application process see that it's not only important to get in, but also and more so that they finish their degree and are able to get a residency slot that they were actually aiming for.
If you matriculate to medical school, pass your first year but, for any reason, don't graduate, you're 100% sure not to get any residency spot.

If you buy into the Caribbean model that, yes, the DO schools are beginning to follow, you may graduate with maybe 60% of your classmates and have a hard time getting into anything competitive and be glad to take all of the DO FP slots that DO students don't want. Then things will get really interesting. What's acceptable, then, for any US medical school, that 10 to 20 percent of your classmates spent over $100k to attend medical school and were dismissed? Ask around to your fellow DO students in different schools to see how many people their classes, ginormous or not, they've lost per year.

If you go DO, pass your tests with the usual Pathoma, UWorld and Savarese materials and have a grasp on the English language, you can get a Family Practice spot without even trying. Most people, though are going to be setting their sights a bit further into the competitive spectrum of specialties, and that's where the biggest crunch will be. As the ACGME takes over more and more of our leadership positions and allows anyone to apply for DO residencies, I imagine that the Caribbean and IMG students will gladly come in to fill those spots. That's where things will get even more interesting!

As always, I love being a DO, use the more evidence/common-sense OMM when I can but hate how our leadership keeps screwing up and covering it up from prospective students. I think more people are beginning to do more than look at US News & World Report when deciding on deciding where to pursue their training and maybe a few words of reality from (gasp) SDN too.

There's plenty of the DO Kool-Aid out there for everyone, just make sure you know who's putting what in it before you gulp it down.
Click to expand...
DO schools are in no way shape or form following the carribean school model. while i am a little dissapointed in our leadership as well, you cant bash them that bad. our match rates are FAR superior to carribean schools and its safe to say that if accepted to DO school than they knew you could hack it. there is no way they accept people who can not handle the academic rigor of medical school. Unlike the carib schools who will accept anyone with a pulse. and there are TONS of allopathic schools with class sizes over 200+ i dont know where your getting this.

Here is another thing your forgetting. We NEED doctors. it makes sense to open new schools (MD and DO) theres a huge shortage.

sorry if i sounded harsh but saying that DO schools have gotten to the point where they will accept anybody and then dont care if they make it or not is incorrect. i have a crap ton of support at my DO school and they help you out a lot. we have a class size of over 200 and i dont think we have even lost more than 3 or 4 kids this year. and that was because they either decided not to become physicians or just didnt feel like putting in the work.
 
The shortage of doctors is only in specific areas. Also everyone is jumping on the physician shortage bandwagon. DNPs, pharmacists wanting to prescribe, optometrists wanting surgical priviledges, etc etc. We continue to flood the market with "providers" and I guarantee we will have issues be it turf wars, oversaturation ( radiology/ pathology for instance) or whatever. Overexpansion of med schools is a problem. Does anyone think for a moment schools will close or reduce class size when the shortage is alleviated?
 
There is no physician shortage. There is just a disparity between primary care and the specialties.
 
The term shortage isn't specific enough. We have maldistribution.
 
sylvanthus said:
Does anyone think for a moment schools will close or reduce class size when the shortage is alleviated?
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Only way that happens is if residency funding is slashed. If they were threatened with more students than spots I bet they'd rather hack 15 people off their class vs. see their precious match rate statistics drop off.
 
There are a bunch of new osteopathic schools opening doors soon. Keep that in mind. I would be more concerned about residency positions to be honest.
 
COCA actually passed new accreditation standards last year requiring all schools to strive to place 100% of grads in residencies, and requiring them to maintain a minimum 98% match rate (averaged over 3 years).
 
user3 said:
COCA actually passed new accreditation standards last year requiring all schools to strive to place 100% of grads in residencies, and requiring them to maintain a minimum 98% match rate (averaged over 3 years).
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No not 100% just that they have to create residency programs. Show me the source that shows 100%.
 
as1212559 said:
The term shortage isn't specific enough. We have maldistribution.
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While I agree, remember that students have to go through the match, so physicians in the near term don't have to worry about a flood of doctors entering the market (and likely never will since I highly doubt congress will increase funding).

I definitely feel that starting this year and forward, the match will increase in difficulty each year. Even Allopathic students should worry about the increase in seats since that means the competitive specialties will get more difficult to match into (I doubt most of them are just gunning for IM/FM/Peds) so it isn't just a DO or IMG issue.

However, we can all thank the AAMC for it's recommendation in increasing the number of medical schools and spots.
 
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