Inquiringmind24

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Today I put the second deposit for AZCOM in the mail and just received my acceptance letter to WesternU/COMP. Right now I'm certainly leaning towards AZCOM since I much preferred the campus and housing situations available there. However, it seems that COMP has much more established rotations and I would be able to do a majority, if not all of them in Southern CA. Does anyone have any feedback on this? Trying weigh the issue of classroom years vs. clinical years is difficult and I really don't want to make the wrong decision since there is plenty of deposit $$$ at stake.
 

MasterShakeDO

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The same exact two schools are being debated in an active thread in the Osteopathic forum. But my two cents is that if you want to do your rotations in SoCal there's no reason not to go to COMP.
 

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Ask anyone that has gone through their residency and they will tell you that your clinical rotations are the most important factor in determining your chance of getting a residency. It's much more important than your comlex I score and your grades during the first 2 years of school.

Therefore, I'd advice against choosing the school based on campus and housing(the reasons you listed)

COMP offers a strong clinical education, and in my opinion, better than AZCOM's. You might prefer the preceptorship style that might provide you with more hands-on training early on, but you'd have a more difficult time convincing the residency program directors who have to choose you or other people that have rotated at a higher number of reputable programs. Also, I believe that at the end, we will all know how to do those more basic procedures that we learn during 3rd/4th years, so it really doesn't matter to me that I'd able to do them in a large quantity in a preceptorship program, and that's if I do get the better preceptors.

In addition, only 4 blocks in the entire 4th year at COMP are required and the rest of them are electives. It means that you could concentrate your rotations in the specialty that you're interested in, which further increases your chances at getting into a more competitive program. Even if you are interested in a less competitive specialty(like peds), but there are competitive residency programs within that specialty that you might want to get into, and they might choose you over someone who has not had as much training as you in that particular specialty.

Good luck.
 
H

harmlessfun21

two of my cousins are residency directors in southern california, one in OB/GYN and the other in anesthesia - the anesthesiologist echoed what the obsterician told me, "you know the saying money talks" i said yeah, "well board scores talk" i asked what he meant, he replied, "research, letters, contacts, school name- add them all up together and compared to your board scores it's like comparing an ant to and elephant"

not really my two cents, but you get the idea......... :idea:

my own two cents - i have the last 4 years of residency matches from COMP (emailed to me by barbara knight at comp) and i have the last 4 years from AZCOM - frankly the ones from AZCOM look a lot better, both in terms of where they're doing their primary care residencies (some big names like mayo) and the number of specialty matches their getting: ortho, derm, ent etc.

Jinyaoysiu said:
Ask anyone that has gone through their residency and they will tell you that your clinical rotations are the most important factor in determining your chance of getting a residency. It's much more important than your comlex I score and your grades during the first 2 years of school.

Therefore, I'd advice against choosing the school based on campus and housing(the reasons you listed)

COMP offers a strong clinical education, and in my opinion, better than AZCOM's. You might prefer the preceptorship style that might provide you with more hands-on training early on, but you'd have a more difficult time convincing the residency program directors who have to choose you or other people that have rotated at a higher number of reputable programs. Also, I believe that at the end, we will all know how to do those more basic procedures that we learn during 3rd/4th years, so it really doesn't matter to me that I'd able to do them in a large quantity in a preceptorship program, and that's if I do get the better preceptors.

In addition, only 4 blocks in the entire 4th year at COMP are required and the rest of them are electives. It means that you could concentrate your rotations in the specialty that you're interested in, which further increases your chances at getting into a more competitive program. Even if you are interested in a less competitive specialty(like peds), but there are competitive residency programs within that specialty that you might want to get into, and they might choose you over someone who has not had as much training as you in that particular specialty.

Good luck.
 

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harmlessfun21 said:
two of my cousins are residency directors in southern california, one in OB/GYN and the other in anesthesia - the anesthesiologist echoed what the obsterician told me, "you know the saying money talks" i said yeah, "well board scores talk" i asked what he meant, he replied, "research, letters, contacts, school name- add them all up together and compared to your board scores it's like comparing an ant to and elephant"

not really my two cents, but you get the idea......... :idea:

my own two cents - i have the last 4 years of residency matches from COMP (emailed to me by barbara knight at comp) and i have the last 4 years from AZCOM - frankly the ones from AZCOM look a lot better, both in terms of where they're doing their primary care residencies (some big names like mayo) and the number of specialty matches their getting: ortho, derm, ent etc.
Couldn't have been said any better! This Jinyaoysiu numbskull has no clue.
 

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i got into the both schools you got into too. and i would rather pick western over azcom. In the end, it's all bout boards, and yea, it seems azcom got higher passing rate, but who the hell cares. it's all bout you. i would go to western cuz i'm from so cal. 3-4 years in the stupid area of arizona? nah... not for me. there are things in life that you should choose, not on numbers. even if it is on eof the biggest factors of your decisions.
 

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lama said:
Couldn't have been said any better! This Jinyaoysiu numbskull has no clue.
You can call me names all you want, but you can't deny the fact the you really have no 100% clue of what kind of preceptors and clinical education you will get, and that was the main point of my post. Seems like the name calling is backed up by a lot of confidence and it seems like AZCOM students share that confidence in common. And as for the importance of clinical years, please go online and look at the websites of different residency programs. The ones that you are interested in, not the ones your friend/cousin/uncle/neighbor is the director of. Many of them list the criteria that they are looking for in an order of importance. Almost all of them I looked at ranked clinical education before scores. You might want to argue that secretly they will choose solely based on board scores, but don't argue it with me. Take it on online with them directors. Personally I'd rather have a good record of strong clinical rotations PLUS good board scores. I'm not going to rally my own confidence in telling myself that a high board score is all I need to counteract the possibility of getting poor preceptors.

as for the match, let me quote a fellow AZCOMer of yours.
azcomdiddy said:
I also can?t stand how nearly every student I come across at the school is geared toward primary care. I'm aware the majority of students at any DO school is geared toward a primary care. But at AZCOM, the number seems even more skewed toward primary care than normal. Just look at our match list for confirmation on that. COMP?s match list is more impressive than AZCOM's. They have many appointments at bigger names like Johns Hopkins, UCLA, Mayo Rochester (not Scottsdale) etc
With all that said, just because some upperclassmen before you were able to get good residencies, it doesn't mean that you will also. Like I said, personally I would maximize my chances by getting a solid cinical education in addition to getting good board scores.
 

lama

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Jinyaoysiu said:
You can call me names all you want, but you can't deny the fact the you really have no 100% clue of what kind of preceptors and clinical education you will get, and that was the main point of my post. Seems like the name calling is backed up by a lot of confidence and it seems like AZCOM students share that confidence in common. And as for the importance of clinical years, please go online and look at the websites of different residency programs. The ones that you are interested in, not the ones your friend/cousin/uncle/neighbor is the director of. Many of them list the criteria that they are looking for in an order of importance. Almost all of them I looked at ranked clinical education before scores. You might want to argue that secretly they will choose solely based on board scores, but don't argue it with me. Take it on online with them directors. Personally I'd rather have a good record of strong clinical rotations PLUS good board scores. I'm not going to rally my own confidence in telling myself that a high board score is all I need to counteract the possibility of getting poor preceptors.

as for the match, let me quote a fellow AZCOMer of yours.


With all that said, just because some upperclassmen before you were able to get good residencies, it doesn't mean that you will also. Like I said, personally I would maximize my chances by getting a solid cinical education in addition to getting good board scores.
Your either completely misinformed or completely stupid. I really could care less about convincing you about the importance of boards. If you dont seem to care what scores you get, fine with me...good luck. I believe the match reflects the entire profile of an applicant: scores, grades and LOR's (clin ed included), personality, etc. All of these things taken together reflect AZCOM's awesome match history, which is much better than COMP's. So go ahead and belly ache about clinical ed., try and convince yourself your going somewhere without a board score, I wont lose any sleep.

And another thing, you guys crack me up with your I-go-to-a-school-in-an-old-run-down-strip-mall-in-a-sh!tty-part-of-town-but-at-least-Im-still-5-mins-away-from-mom-and-I'll-never-have-to-leave-SoCal. Get out once in a while guys, live on the edge: drive past Bakersfield sometime. You might enjoy the lack of pollution, violence and prostitution. Hey, there's even an In-N-Out down the street from AZCOM.

P.S. my clinical rotations will be at Stanford, U of Mich, Mayo-Phoenix, U of Utah and a few in San Diego. Sh!tty rotations, huh?
 

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Match lists are posted as a sticky in this forum. COMP only has one (if its so awesome why dont they publish it for all to see?). You will also find Lists for every year at AZCOM. Decide for yourself which is better.
 

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I'm not against people comparing different schools, but personal insults have no place in this forum, so please refrain.

Personally, though I go to COMP, I have heard really, really good things about AZCOM - especially the pre-clinical years, and would have had a tough time choosing between the two.
 

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I was seriously considering DO (over allopathic). I got into COMP and AZCOM. I interviewed all over the place (COMP, Touro, AZCOM, Case, Mayo, UW). I am going to go to UW because it is here (I'm married with a family) and it is SUPER cheap. But other than UW, my top choice of everywhere I interviewed was AZCOM, for a lot of reasons. First, I disagree that the clinical rotations are not as good as they are at COMP. I think that there is a potential for them to be better. They are flexible in terms of programs and location. That is a double edged sword. If you are motivated and work at it, you can taylor an incredible rotation schedule. And another post is absolutely correct: Board scores are HUGE. AZCOM has the best board scores of the DO schools. The bottomw line is that it is the residency that is what is important. Look at AZCOM's placements. They are very impressive.

I, too, got a great feeling while visiting AZCOM. I would definintely go there. On the other hand, I thought COMP was good, I just couldn't deal with all of the polution and over-crowding. I'm not the so cal type, I guess.

I hope that helps...
 

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lama said:
Your either completely misinformed or completely stupid. I really could care less about convincing you about the importance of boards.
I agree boards are important. Never said it wasn't. In fact, I plan to kill on it and I know I will. Going to AZCOM will not improve my score, but I personally will. If someone thinks he'll do better on the boards by going to one school or the other, then he should do that and get all the help he can get. Like I said in another thread, if an obese person feels the need to move to a different state with a lower obese pecertange in order to lose weight, then he should do that and good luck to him.

lama said:
So go ahead and belly ache about clinical ed., try and convince yourself your going somewhere without a board score, I wont lose any sleep.
Were you a soap actor before applying to med schools?


lama said:
P.S. my clinical rotations will be at Stanford, U of Mich, Mayo-Phoenix, U of Utah and a few in San Diego. Sh!tty rotations, huh
Congratulations with your clincial rotations. Sounds like you were able to cut corners around some of that preceptorships. In that case, I don't know why you are being dramatic and arguing with me.

I stressed on the importance of clinical years because most applicants are either clueless or have severely under-estimated it. It is perhaps that most important thing that a med school could give you. It's not the campus, not the housing, and I was responding on tangent to the original post in contrast to your dramatic one-man act. I said, for me, I would want to maximize my chances at getting a residency I want, and I would not make a risky bet on a preceptorship style program.

My classmates that choose to stay in LA are some of the most open-minded, well-rounded, diverse, eccentric, worldly people that I've met. You could down play it to in-n-out, mommy and daddy, nightlife, or whatever, but it only shows your own insecurity. If you really understand what the word "diverse" means, then you wouldn't try to categorize it into a few things. LA is a metropolitan area that has all that, nightlife, nature, museums, excellent cuisine...etc the list goes on and on. That's what diverse means. Sorry but AZCOM just doesn't have that. And I respect your decision for wanting to live in that area. An Amish person might consider Pheonix to be polluted and full of sin and I respect that too and hope you do. But that Amish person is not going to use profanity at you or hint that the only reason why you would want to live in Phoenix is because of your mommy and daddy. I think it's a good self-selection process that people with the likes of your mindset go to AZCOM and people with the other mindset come to COMP.
 

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wow, this thread got crappy real fast.

we need to just chill

COMP's exterior is a dump, there is no denying it. that being said, I will still be there next year. FYI i was accepted to several other schools.

there is no need in flaming one another. you go to your school and we will go to ours. the OP asked for suggestions to attend not examples of unprofessionalism.

COMP is a strip mall, but all your if not most of your rotations are done in So Cal, while that may not mean anything to you, that means tons to me, since i want to address the needs of this specific community once i get those letters behind my name. I am assuming that So Cal trumps Arizona in terms of diversity in patient pool, so you will see a wider range of cases. say what you will, but learning to be sensitive to different cultures when treating patients is best done in diverse areas. I doubt Arizona is as diverse as So Cal. This is just one thing to think about.

lama,you are way out of line, just chill. no one is saying that low boards scores will get you anywhere, i think jinyaosiu is saying there are other critical factors too. if board scores were the only predictor, then we should reject all students that score less than 35 on the mcat, that way, all the students will be proven to do well on standardized tests. also, we should just close all med schools and just allow people to take the boards and take the people that pass. :scared:

OP:

AZCOM COMLEX 1 pass rate from last year of 100% is impressive hands down.
I never applied to AZCOM, so i cant tell you what it looks like. I can tell you that at COMP you will have to commute 5-15 minutes if you want to live on the "nicer side" I can also tell you that most COMP grads stay in so cal, which is very competitive to get residencies, take from that what you will. while COMP exterior is not as nice as say CCOM, its interior is oh so nice.

About board scores, COMP was unusually low last year this is true, but you gotta look at the record over several years. dont let one class's scores scare you. In fact, several schools i interviewed at reported lower than normal scores than previous years. To address this COMP is taking less chances on "borderline" students. changing their curriculum to basically teach for the boards, so im sure next year the scores will be back to its usual. Plus you just dont want to pass your boards right? you want to murder them! this will be up to you, not your school.

You have been to both obviously, it will come to you. dont let this webpage or any of us convince you where to go next year. im sure you will just be excited to start med school, and will quickly forget this hype and forge strong relationships with future colleagues at either school.

good luck inquiringmind. feels good to be having choices after this arduous process huh? i met you at CCOM right? congrats on the multiple acceptances!
 

lama

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Listen, I really dont care about how you guys percieve your school nor do I care for your opinion about what is important for a residency. My point to the OP is that the most important factor in selecting a school is their match. The match encompasses everything: scores, clin ed, grades, etc. A match comparison speaks for itself and you guys are evading the reality that AZCOM has a better match history. You bring in zebras like "diversity" or "cuisine" to the discussion to side track the conversation. Lets stay focused on the point, which school will get you to the next step better. I believe AZCOM does this better and the facts support this.

BTW, Phoenix is the fifth largest metropolitan area in the U.S., its not lacking in diversity.

One thing that was very sketchy about COMP was the scandal with some of the administration a couple of years ago. Thats not a good thing. Why don't you tell the OP about what happened?

Another point, I left southern California to go to school in Arizona. Im from San Diego, visited both schools and AZCOM won by a landslide. It seems to me that you guys are the ones lacking diversity. Your the ones that cant leave to meet new kinds of people or discover other cultures. Staying in southern California to attend a sketchy school for diversity sake, is fine with me, I really dont care. Go on thinking its for diversity, I think it's stupidity.
 

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lama said:
My point to the OP is that the most important factor in selecting a school is their match.
No you didn't have a point to the OP. Go back and read. The first post you made in the thread is calling me names.

lama said:
You bring in zebras like "diversity" or "cuisine" to the discussion to side track the conversation. Lets stay focused on the point, which school will get you to the next step better. I believe AZCOM does this better and the facts support this..
Everyone was focused on the point untill you brought in profanity, at-least-Im-still-5-mins-away-from-mom.....etc I responded to your drama and defined a few words for you. You believe that AZCOM will get you to the next step better. Great.
Like I said, you have confidence in their preceptorship program even though you have no clue what kind of preceptors you will get. Maybe AZCOM will also give you higher board scores, help you lose weight, cut down on your drama and stop your profanity using. I surely hope you get to the next step.

lama said:
BTW, Phoenix is the fifth largest metropolitan area in the U.S., its not lacking in diversity...
An Amish person would agree with that Pheonix is not lacking in diversity. A New Yorker/LAer would not. It's all relative. But there's one thing that's not relative... let me count the metro areas for you 1)New York 2)LA 3)Chicago 4)Houston 5)Pheonix???
What happened to Philly? DC? Boston? Nor. Cal? Atlanta? Seattle? Miami? Maybe to you Pheonix feels like the 5th largest metropolitan, but it certainly is not.

lama said:
One thing that was very sketchy about COMP was the scandal with some of the administration a couple of years ago. Thats not a good thing. Why don't you tell the OP about what happened?
Did he ask about it? Does the concept of being on tangent mean anything to you? Please use some logic and less drama. The OP didn't ask for profanity also but you used it anyways.

lama said:
Your the ones that cant leave to meet new kinds of people or discover other cultures.
Tell me about the new kinds of people and cultures that you are meeting and we have it here. It's a good idea to leave to meet new cultures but it depends on where you are leaving TO. An Amish person might feel like he's leaving to go to Pheonix to meet new people but I do not feel that way, but I respect your feelings if you feel that way.
 
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Inquiringmind24

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I really appreciate everyone giving their opinions, but I don't think there's any need to argue about. Given what I've read on SDN, heard from various sources, and what my gut feeling tells me, I'm pretty certain I'll be attending AZCOM unless of course I get into U of Colorado SOM (cheap tuition). The program seems like a better fit for me and I'd probably have a good chance of setting up some rotations close to my family in the northwest. I will be discussing this issue with my pre-med advisor as well, but I'm thinking Glendale is where I will be heading in August. And by the way lama, those are some nice rotations.
 

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I have nothing vested in either school... and if I was a smarter man, I'd probably stay out of this debate entirely. But its Friday afternoon, nothing wrong with having a little entertainment....

I've been looking at AZCOM's match results from 2004 (assuming its pretty representative), and I guess I really don't understand the hype. What exactly are you pointing to, lama, when you brag about AZCOM's "awesome match history" which is "much better" than COMP's? Care to give some specific examples from the 2004 class?

Here's the link, to save you a couple clicks:
http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/academic/AZCOM/Docs/azcom03Match.pdf

It seems like a decent match list, but what makes it "awesome" and head and shoulders above the competition as you arrogantly claim? Someone else earlier claimed lots of great matches in ortho, derm, ent, etc... I see only a single match for alleopathic ortho (in Michigan), and a single derm, and no ents from 2004. I don't see the awesome world-class institutions (Hopkins? Stanford? Harvard? the 'real' Mayo?) that would justify the arrogance you guys are showing here.

The 2004 COMP match list in terms of institutions seems easily as impressive as AZCOM's. 2 at Stanford, 2 at UCSF.

In terms of specialities (I'm only looking at alleopathic residencies), AZCOM has a lower percentage of family practice (30% versus 38% for COMP), but a much higher percentage of internal medicine (28% versus 16% for COMP)... neither of these are considered competitive residencies, so what's the difference. COMP turned out more gas guys (10%) than AZCOM (7%). AZCOM has more alleopathic surgery residents (2 versus 0), and kicks serious booty in ortho only if we also look at ostopathic residencies. I've wasted more time here than I really should, but I'm struggling to see a serious qualitative difference of one school over the other.

There are only two differences. One: AZCOM turns out a lot more osteopathic residents (~40%) than COMP (~20%). Two: number of residents in California. AZCOM placed 11 (out of 70 total alleopathic) in California, and I think several of these are military. COMP ... I got tired of counting, probably more than 2/3rds of the alleopathic residencies are in California (out of ~115 total). For a world traveller who has no particular interest in California, can't imagine this makes a whale of a difference. For folks who have family/close ties in California and wants to stay close for the next 7-10 years of their lives... it's pretty much a slam dunk.

(Disclaimer: These numbers are really rough/approximate, and I'm doing the math just by using 'find' and scanning through. Any oversight or mistake I might've made is strictly because I'm not paying attention, and not an issue of intentional falsehood.)
 

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Not to get into this in a meaningful way, but remember, Heech, that internal medicine matches are deceptive. Since medicine is the gateway to many of the more competitive specialties, a disproportionate number of IM matches isn't a reliable indicator of anything.

I've done a more extensive analysis of COMP and AZCOM match lists, which is in a thread I link to in the *other* AZCOM/COMP thread on the osteopathic board. If anyone's really interested in a moderately detailed breakdown, with some rough percentages, it's there.

There's been a lot of talk about which school has the better clinical rotations. Objective indicators like residency placement are the best gauge of that. Personal opinions on setup go a little ways, but in the end the best school is the one that gives you the biggest boost in choosing the residency you want. All things being equal, best to choose accordingly.

As for diversity, I'm always amused by the way people throw the idea around as some absolute good without ever defining it. I'm pleased with the diversity at AZCOM, though my definition might differ from others. And Phoenix is in fact the fifth-largest metro area in the US; the idea that the city has nothing to recommend itself is a little provincial. Perhaps I'm a little too Amish, but the Phoenix metro area has everything, from cutting-edge music to art to sports, that a larger city could recommend with far less of the urban crush.
 

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Inquiringmind24 said:
I really appreciate everyone giving their opinions, but I don't think there's any need to argue about. Given what I've read on SDN, heard from various sources, and what my gut feeling tells me, I'm pretty certain I'll be attending AZCOM unless of course I get into U of Colorado SOM (cheap tuition). The program seems like a better fit for me and I'd probably have a good chance of setting up some rotations close to my family in the northwest. I will be discussing this issue with my pre-med advisor as well, but I'm thinking Glendale is where I will be heading in August. And by the way lama, those are some nice rotations.

There were two things that were important to me: (1) roations in the Northwest, close to family; and (2) great residency acceptance. I felt confident that both could be accomplished at AZCOM. That being said, I was accepted into the Northwest Trac at COMP, which would have given me some GREAT rotations at places like UDub, and Harborview. But weighing everything from lifestyle, to board scores, to residency placement, to rotation locations, I decided that AZCOM came out ahead for me. BOTH are good schools.
 

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heech said:
I have nothing vested in either school... and if I was a smarter man, I'd probably stay out of this debate entirely. But its Friday afternoon, nothing wrong with having a little entertainment....

I've been looking at AZCOM's match results from 2004 (assuming its pretty representative), and I guess I really don't understand the hype. What exactly are you pointing to, lama, when you brag about AZCOM's "awesome match history" which is "much better" than COMP's? Care to give some specific examples from the 2004 class?

Here's the link, to save you a couple clicks:
http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/academic/AZCOM/Docs/azcom03Match.pdf

It seems like a decent match list, but what makes it "awesome" and head and shoulders above the competition as you arrogantly claim? Someone else earlier claimed lots of great matches in ortho, derm, ent, etc... I see only a single match for alleopathic ortho (in Michigan), and a single derm, and no ents from 2004. I don't see the awesome world-class institutions (Hopkins? Stanford? Harvard? the 'real' Mayo?) that would justify the arrogance you guys are showing here.

The 2004 COMP match list in terms of institutions seems easily as impressive as AZCOM's. 2 at Stanford, 2 at UCSF.

In terms of specialities (I'm only looking at alleopathic residencies), AZCOM has a lower percentage of family practice (30% versus 38% for COMP), but a much higher percentage of internal medicine (28% versus 16% for COMP)... neither of these are considered competitive residencies, so what's the difference. COMP turned out more gas guys (10%) than AZCOM (7%). AZCOM has more alleopathic surgery residents (2 versus 0), and kicks serious booty in ortho only if we also look at ostopathic residencies. I've wasted more time here than I really should, but I'm struggling to see a serious qualitative difference of one school over the other.

There are only two differences. One: AZCOM turns out a lot more osteopathic residents (~40%) than COMP (~20%). Two: number of residents in California. AZCOM placed 11 (out of 70 total alleopathic) in California, and I think several of these are military. COMP ... I got tired of counting, probably more than 2/3rds of the alleopathic residencies are in California (out of ~115 total). For a world traveller who has no particular interest in California, can't imagine this makes a whale of a difference. For folks who have family/close ties in California and wants to stay close for the next 7-10 years of their lives... it's pretty much a slam dunk.

(Disclaimer: These numbers are really rough/approximate, and I'm doing the math just by using 'find' and scanning through. Any oversight or mistake I might've made is strictly because I'm not paying attention, and not an issue of intentional falsehood.)

You posted 2003 pal. Ironically, it's probably better than 2004.
AZCOM 2003:

Andersson, Georgetown- Pediatrics
Ebner- Cleveland Clinic-DERM!!!!
Hogan, Cleveland Clinic-Anesthesia
Joseph, Northwestern-Anesthesia
Kearing, Dartmouth- Ob/Gyn
Poulsen, U Michigan-Anesthesia
Swanson, Northwestern-Anesthesia

In 2004 there was one to Stanford in Peds, one to Cleveland Clinic in Anesthesia, and one to Yale in Anesthesia. I didn't place second or third tier schools like Kentuky, USC, etc. for sake of time and space. Sorry I couldn't find Hopkins or the real Mayo, I did find Stanford and you'll have to settle for Cleveland Clinic and Yale, can you forgive me?
 

heech

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Luke,

This must be the specific post you were pointing us to?
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=1311234&postcount=52

The statistics are interesting. Although I do have a small nit to pick: you calculate AZCOM's ratio of primary care residents to *total* number of residents... but did you substract the 'traditional rotating internships' out of the denominator? Did AZCOM really have 133 residents outside of the traditional rotating internship in the 2003 match list you looked at? Only 126 total listed in the 2004 match list, which is why I find your number surprising. And since AZCOM graduates (relatively) more osteopathic residents than COMP, that biases the difference.

I think your post is a perfect example of why we should be careful when reading match lists. You argue that AZCOM's match list was 'qualitatively .. more impressive', apparently on the basis of derm, otolaryngwhatever, etc... The 2004 AZCOM match list, interestingly enough, only has a single PGY-4 derm (starting out as FP) and no otolarynwhatevers at all.

Again, at the end of the day... I wasn't arguing AZCOM's match list is weaker or focused strictly on primary care (as a couple of the AZCOM'ers seem to claim in your thread). More than anything else, I'm just amused at the totally undeserving and vehement arrogance expressed by a few on this thread. You're a very fair guy Luke, don't you find lama's claims about AZCOM's clear, obvious, and total superiority to be misleading?
 

heech

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I didn't place second or third tier schools like Kentuky, USC, etc. for sake of time and space.
You *are* aware that USC ranked higher according to the US News & World report than a couple of the other schools you bragged about..? Like, Dartmouth? And is at least comparable to Georgetown?

And what about other schools that COMP places well into which are clearly superior to either Georgetown or Dartmouth... like, UCLA? (Which is probably comparable to Michigan, really.)

EDIT: By the way, here's the general link to US News and World report rankings on the quality of teaching hospitals:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/health/hosptl/directory/hosp_alph.htm

lama said:
In 2004 there was one to Stanford in Peds, one to Cleveland Clinic in Anesthesia, and one to Yale in Anesthesia. ... Sorry I couldn't find Hopkins or the real Mayo, I did find Stanford and you'll have to settle for Cleveland Clinic and Yale, can you forgive me?
Oops, copy/pasted the wrong link. Oh well, I really was looking at the 2004 class, I swear.

So, yes, I'm fine with Cleveland, Yale, and Stanford. Great programs, and major kudos for the individuals that managed the feat (and the AZCOM that educated them). (Although, I should point out Cleveland has a gas residency program for DOs only.)

Now, explain to us why these are "awesome", and "a hell of a lot better" than the pathetic residents coming out of COMP? 2 of whom out of 2004 are at Stanford, 2 of whom are at UCSF?

See, this is what you get for being a frothing-at-the-mouth fanatic about AZCOM, lama. You get to try to defend your indefensible, illogical, and simply comical points which collapse at close evaluation. C'mon, tell us again why AZCOM's residency matches are head and shoulders above the quack doctors being educated out of COMP.
 

lama

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heech said:
You *are* aware that USC ranked higher according to the US News & World report than a couple of the other schools you bragged about..? Like, Dartmouth? And is at least comparable to Georgetown?

And what about other schools that COMP places well into which are clearly superior to either Georgetown or Dartmouth... like, UCLA? (Which is probably comparable to Michigan, really.)

EDIT: By the way, here's the general link to US News and World report rankings on the quality of teaching hospitals:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/health/hosptl/directory/hosp_alph.htm


Oops, copy/pasted the wrong link. Oh well, I really was looking at the 2004 class, I swear.

So, yes, I'm fine with Cleveland, Yale, and Stanford. Great programs, and major kudos for the individuals that managed the feat (and the AZCOM that educated them). (Although, I should point out Cleveland has a gas residency program for DOs only.)

Now, explain to us why these are "awesome", and "a hell of a lot better" than the pathetic residents coming out of COMP? 2 of whom out of 2004 are at Stanford, 2 of whom are at UCSF?

See, this is what you get for being a frothing-at-the-mouth fanatic about AZCOM, lama. You get to try to defend your indefensible, illogical, and simply comical points which collapse at close evaluation. C'mon, tell us again why AZCOM's residency matches are head and shoulders above the quack doctors being educated out of COMP.
Pal, quit before you embarass yourself. Study before you speak. The two UCSF students from COMP went to UCSF-FRESNO. If you look at the AZCOM match, there were 3 UCSF-FRESNO residents in 2004. I didn't include them on our list because Fresno is not San Francisco. Right here is where you open your mouth and insert your foot.

Please show me evidence where Cleveland Clinic segregates DO Anesthesiologists. I could find none on their program site.

OK, so USC is great, AZCOM students also went to USC, whats your point? And please dont tell me your using USNews as your measuring stick. Your in big trouble if this is your only defense.

Your'e pointless to argue with buddy. You cant even bring an accurate argument, then when you are beaten you resort to splitting the thinnest of hairs to save face. Your wasting our time. When you have a coherent and accurate post, please let us know. In the mean time, let the people in the forum decide for themselves.
 

Jinyaoysiu

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Another main point of my posts was to emphasize on the importance of an individual determining his/her own fate, and I believe Lama did not get that point. He was throwing match list data left and right as if he personally will also get into those residencies just because it's on a list. He didn't talk concretely about how AZCOM's preceptorship program will get him there. I am also aware of match list data but I refrained from just throwing it all over the table. I gave a concrete advice to the OP about working hard and getting the best possible clinical rotations because those are the two most important factors that we personally could control. I came to COMP for those 2 factors and I personally want to maximize my personal chance at getting my personal residency program that I personally want.

Lama also threw aneths. and derm left and right as if those are the criteria to judge the worth of a school's match list. A rather simplistic view if you ask me. Do you personally want to get into aneths/derm? At every school there are plenty of people that could have gotten into aneths/derm if they wanted to but just did not have the interest.

As heech pointed out, a great majority of COMP's allopathic placements are in CA, which in itself is a competitive area to be in. Lama's simple mind likes to focus on the few elites in each class but overall COMP graduates get into the good residencies that they want in competitive CA. Looking at the majority of AZCOM's placements, I'm not sure if they are at locations Lama would get errogant about.

Again, my central argument is that, COMP's clinical program will help you increase your chance at a residency program that you want and I'm not sure one could say the same about AZCOM's clincial years.
 

LukeWhite

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heech,

I'm afraid I don't remember the methodology, as it was a year or so ago. I think I took several years' worth of matches, and if I remember correctly, I subtracted out all the traditional rotating internships on both sides since they're not really a good indication of the track a student's going to end up in.

As for AZCOM's superiority, or what have you, my personal take is that the choice of an osteopathic school generally has (with a few exceptions for good or bad) a relatively small impact on one's experience compared to what one puts in. It seems to me COMP probably has the edge for placing people in California, which is an important consideration for many. My personal opinion is that the preceptor based model of AZCOM, if one exploits it to its fullest, is the best for gaining a broad technical competence perhaps at the expense of some didactics.

If I had to choose schools independently of any particular career path (my preference for primary care skewed me heavily towards AZCOM) I'd probably still choose AZCOM. But really, whatever school one picks will give you about what you put in. The major fallacy in school comparison is the comparison of averages and general stats, none of which have much of an impact on the individual. They're the best predictors we can come up with for how average student X will do, but given that medical education is fairly standardized, with everyone learning from the same books and bodies, the choice of school is usually far less important than people think.

With that said, I tend more towards L's view than J. School-picking isn't reliable, but match lists are a far better measure than opinions on the quality of the education. If the list is impressive, something's being done right, and it really doesn't matter what unless it interferes with other goals, like staying in California, that an applicant may have.
 

Jinyaoysiu

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lama said:
Right here is where you open your mouth and insert your foot.
Lama is all dramatic again. Heech raised some valid questions and attacking him is not necessary, especially if you feel so secure about your data...or do you?

Let's use Lama's language to talk to him. He likes to throw words around like match list, Anesthesiology, ... etc fine. Let's use Anesthesiology then.

In 2004, COMP had 12 placements in Anesthesiology while AZCOM had 9. Of Azcom's 9, one was at cleaveland clinic but the rest of them does not warrant lama's arrogance. Of the 12 from COMP, 3 are at USC and one at UC Davis.

Oh and what did Lama say about USC?
lama said:
OK, so USC is great, AZCOM students also went to USC, whats your point?
Nope, sir. According to the AZCOM's 2004 match list, there were ZERO. Again, ZERO placement at USC. On the other hand, COMP in 2004, in addition to the 3 Anesthesiology at USC, has 2 internal med. at USC, which makes a total of 5.

So Lama and Lukewhite claimed that AZCOM's match list is "better" and one only wonders how they drew their conclusions. And if you look at the great great majority of AZCOM's placements, they are not exactly in competitive locations at all. Although they sure have plenty of placements in Kansas, Utah, and Missouri, wait, maybe that's why it's "better." In contrast, the majority of COMP graduates match into programs in CA which are more competitive on average.

Oh, and they also claimed that AZCOM's preceptorship style program is better than COMP's program. I'm not sure if I'd buy it.

I'll end this post by presenting a quote to Lama.

lama said:
Your'e pointless to argue with buddy. You cant even bring an accurate argument, then when you are beaten you resort to splitting the thinnest of hairs to save face. Your wasting our time. When you have a coherent and accurate post, please let us know. In the mean time, let the people in the forum decide for themselves.
 

medtraveler

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Just thought I'd drop a quote that came to mind after reading this insane thread...

Life is a tale told by idiots
Full of sound and furry
Signifying nothing

- Shakespeare
 

that dr. jack

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dudes, it really doesn't matter what school you go to. go with your gut and don't look back. personally, i hate phoenix, but maybe it's cuz i associate the city with my crazy mother-in-law.

let's all agree to disagree about which school gives us a boner more, and leave it at that. if you want a good residency, work hard and spend less time arguing about nothing on SDN and you should be fine no matter where you went.

so enough of the dickslapping contest, ok?
 

heech

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lama said:
Please show me evidence where Cleveland Clinic segregates DO Anesthesiologists. I could find none on their program site.
I can only hope you keep posting. I'll let the audience decide who's more embarassing.

As far as Cleveland Clinics programs for DOs (including a DO-specific gas program)... I consider this a tangent from the original discussion about the awe-inspiring subspecialists AZCOM is training (of which lama will undoubtedly be one... I see a future for him in neurosurgery, personally).

But for educational purposes alone, I'll include a few links on the topic.

See http://www.cchseast.org/Residency/

Our DO Residency Programs are housed at 180-bed South Pointe Hospital, a fully accredited osteopathic medical education provider partnered with Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine and the Centers for Osteopathic Regional Education. Many DO residents will also rotate to area hospitals outside of the Cleveland Clinic Health System - East Region, as well as other locations within our comprehensive care network.

And, specifically:
http://www.cchseast.org/Residency/DoPrograms.aspx#anesthesia