Biden Out of Race

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Didn't you know Hamas uses civilians as a shield and that justifies killing large numbers of civilians to strike a Hamas target? That's is the Rght's response to the genocide in Palestine. They'll say civilian deaths in Iran aren't justified because Iran doesn't purposely surround military targets with civilians.
I think that talking point is silly, but I guess it's the talking point that people use.

I think I see someone use that analogy. If a group of terrorists kill 50+ people and then hold hostage 20 kids in elementary school, will an army be morally right if to bomb that school in order to kills these terrorists.

However, if people know they are being used as human shield and they dont take EXTRAORDINARY measures to extricate themselves, they are as bad as the terrorists IMO.
 
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However, if people know they are being used as human shield and they dont take EXTRAORDINARY measures to extricate themselves, they are as bad as the terrorists IMO.
Where would someone in Palestine extricate themselves to, exactly? What if the terrorist is also the an authoritarian government? What if said government suppresses dissent with violence and you have no recourse? Are they just as bad as the terrorist government?

Look at the recent uprising in Iran. The Iranian government killed several thousand of their own citizens to suppress the rebellion.
 
Where would someone in Palestine extricate themselves to, exactly? What if the terrorist is also the an authoritarian government? What if said government suppresses dissent with violence and you have no recourse? Are they just as bad as the terrorist government?

Look at the recent uprising in Iran. The Iranian government killed several thousand of their own citizens to suppress the rebellion.
Obviously, they are not if it is an authoritarian regime that use them as shield by force.

My point was people should not go out there and regurgitate talking points without looking at things at every angle.

Almost no one would give a damn if the IDF has killed all the Hamas terrorists and the people who harbor them, but many have objection when INNOCENT people are getting killed and some just throw their hands in the air and say well "Hamas use them as human shield."
 
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Didn't you know Hamas uses civilians as a shield and that justifies killing large numbers of civilians to strike a Hamas target? That's is the Rght's response to the genocide in Palestine. They'll say civilian deaths in Iran aren't justified because Iran doesn't purposely surround military targets with civilians.


Except that one girls school that got tomahawked.
 
Dude where do you want to put the goal posts? Are we having a discussion about current atrocities in Gaza or that the Israeli government manufactured 10/7 and the rich elite Jews are stifling anti-Israeli sentiment financially “or other ways”. Yes, one of those things are true, and the others are antisemetic.

Wild to me you post as if it bewilders you we stifle pro-Palestinian sentiment. Mahmoud Khalil, anyone? Robert Kraft shut down Macklemore for his pro-Palestinian discourse and you’re like ‘no no no that doesn’t occur here!!’. It’s honestly weird how you’re ignoring what’s plainly evident.

I don’t think the Israeli government manufactured 10/7. There’s a difference between doing nothing about a credible claim and wanting an event to occur. The lines are gray, and you’re too black and white to see them. The events unfolded as they did, and Israel is currently committing a genocide in Gaza.

Everything outside of total Zionist support is antisemitic to you. It’s sad honestly. It inhibits healthy discourse. But, I’ve learned my lesson. Get well.
 
Except that one girls school that got tomahawked.
But we were going after IRGC terrorists so therefore no one can be mad about the 120 children we killed. Even if we killed an additional 20,000 children you still wouldn’t be allowed to be upset by that. That would mean you support the IRGC and hate Christians.
 
But we were going after IRGC terrorists so therefore no one can be mad about the 120 children we killed. Even if we killed an additional 20,000 children you still wouldn’t be allowed to be upset by that. That would mean you support the IRGC and hate Christians.
To be fair, if we were like “hey we’re bombing this school tomorrow. Take the kids far away” and then they didn’t, it certainly lessens the culpability.

Israel is trying to flatten Gaza in retaliation to unprovoked attacks. They told everyone to move out before they did it. It wasn’t a surprise. That’s worth something. It’s ugly, but I still stand with Israel both morally and strategically. I don’t have any ill will against the Palestinians, and they ARE the biggest victims here. But to support “Palestine” at this point is to be aligned with Hamas causes and play right into their hand.
 
Wild to me you post as if it bewilders you we stifle pro-Palestinian sentiment. Mahmoud Khalil, anyone? Robert Kraft shut down Macklemore for his pro-Palestinian discourse and you’re like ‘no no no that doesn’t occur here!!’. It’s honestly weird how you’re ignoring what’s plainly evident.

What’s wild is how you define “we”. But it’s cool you have a couple anecdotes to “confirm” your claim, despite the many thousands of pro-Palestinian protests hundreds of which were deemed violent across all 50 states that didn’t produce a Khalil outcome. And if you are here on a green card, maybe not a good idea to be affiliated with a student group that praises Hamas 🤷‍♂️. Anyway, it falls just a touch short of a conspiracy to systematically stifle anti-Israel rhetoric.


I don’t think the Israeli government manufactured 10/7. There’s a difference between doing nothing about a credible claim and wanting an event to occur. The lines are gray, and you’re too black and white to see them. The events unfolded as they did, and Israel is currently committing a genocide in Gaza.

“There were rumors Netanyahu wanted 10/7 all along so he could defend a genocide on the Palestinians”. Again, what credible source has confirmed or reported on these rumors?

Everything outside of total Zionist support is antisemitic to you. It’s sad honestly. It inhibits healthy discourse. But, I’ve learned my lesson. Get well.

Crazy world we live in. Not condoning fear mongering conspiracy theories towards the Jews makes someone a total Zionist (with a hard R).
 
As an aside, just insane that Trump and co saw how badly a proxy war in Ukraine was for Russia and still said “I’d love to have one myself.” And went after Iran.

China and Russia et al I’m sure are absolutely gleeful funneling weapons/resources/intel to Iran until the end of time.

Military powerhouses picking fights with small countries and ending up in endless proxy wars is the “marching Napoleonic formations straight into trench lines” of the 2020s.
 
To be fair, if we were like “hey we’re bombing this school tomorrow. Take the kids far away” and then they didn’t, it certainly lessens the culpability.

Israel is trying to flatten Gaza in retaliation to unprovoked attacks. They told everyone to move out before they did it. It wasn’t a surprise. That’s worth something. It’s ugly, but I still stand with Israel both morally and strategically. I don’t have any ill will against the Palestinians, and they ARE the biggest victims here. But to support “Palestine” at this point is to be aligned with Hamas causes and play right into their hand.

I love that.

Israel - ‘Hey we are bombing you, please leave!’
Gazans - ‘okay, we will get in our planes, boats, and cars and leave the country…’
Israel and Egypt - ‘No you can’t go anywhere because of our land, sea, and air blockade’

Until the last Gazan is exterminated I wonder if you’ll be placated with this nonsensical ‘yeah but HAMAS…’ line.
 
I love that.

Israel - ‘Hey we are bombing you, please leave!’
Gazans - ‘okay, we will get in our planes, boats, and cars and leave the country…’
Israel and Egypt - ‘No you can’t go anywhere because of our land, sea, and air blockade’

Until the last Gazan is exterminated I wonder if you’ll be placated with this nonsensical ‘yeah but HAMAS…’ line.
Hamas could surrender today and stop the madness but they won’t because they ACTUALLY want dead Palestinians as it helps their extremist cause. I don’t think it’s fair to act like they aren’t a major active player in this.

You don’t get to throw rocks at glass houses and then expect sympathy when a boulder gets thrown back at you. Like it or not, they rule over that area and their people pay the price for their reckless actions.
 
What’s wild is how you define “we”. But it’s cool you have a couple anecdotes to “confirm” your claim, despite the many thousands of pro-Palestinian protests hundreds of which were deemed violent across all 50 states that didn’t produce a Khalil outcome. And if you are here on a green card, maybe not a good idea to be affiliated with a student group that praises Hamas 🤷‍♂️. Anyway, it falls just a touch short of a conspiracy to systematically stifle anti-Israel rhetoric.




“There were rumors Netanyahu wanted 10/7 all along so he could defend a genocide on the Palestinians”. Again, what credible source has confirmed or reported on these rumors?



Crazy world we live in. Not condoning fear mongering conspiracy theories towards the Jews makes someone a total Zionist (with a hard R).

Toward the government of Israel, not the Jewish people. Quit conflating. We both know I’ve criticized Bibi and the government of Israel and have consistently and persistently said the Jewish people, like all human beings, have a right to exist.

Do not attribute words to me I haven’t said to get some stupid ‘likes’ on a student doctor forum.

Also I’ve repeated what the Haaretz published. Repeating ‘conspiracy theory’ every paragraph doesn’t strengthen your argument. Matter of fact it doesn’t appear you know what that means.
 
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Hamas could surrender today and stop the madness but they won’t because they ACTUALLY want dead Palestinians as it helps their extremist cause. I don’t think it’s fair to act like they aren’t a major active player in this.

You don’t get to throw rocks at glass houses and then expect sympathy when a boulder gets thrown back at you.

Or a bomb. Or a missile.

Hamas could’ve surrendered a year ago. They offered to return the hostages the night of the attack. Read the article. It’s all irrelevant to what’s currently occurring.
 
To be fair, if we were like “hey we’re bombing this school tomorrow. Take the kids far away” and then they didn’t, it certainly lessens the culpability.

Israel is trying to flatten Gaza in retaliation to unprovoked attacks. They told everyone to move out before they did it. It wasn’t a surprise. That’s worth something. It’s ugly, but I still stand with Israel both morally and strategically. I don’t have any ill will against the Palestinians, and they ARE the biggest victims here. But to support “Palestine” at this point is to be aligned with Hamas causes and play right into their hand.
Ok and when a 6 year old fails to evacuate we can just drop a bomb on him?

Israel just gets to do whatever it wants in Gaza international law be damned? They’ve already forced famine, blocked humanitarian aid, and indiscriminately bombed the place to hell. Why not nukes or smallpox I guess?

Can you explain how being sickened with the reality that Palestinian children are getting surgery without anesthesia or betadine means I’m aligned with hamas?
 
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The latest from Tucker Carlson. Not sourced, but his opinion, anyway.

According to an informed federal official, in the coming months the Trump administration plans to send a total of 40,000 Mark 84 and Blu-117 bombs to the government of Israel. Each bomb weighs 2,000 pounds. This appears to be the largest transfer of conventional explosive ordnance from the United States in modern history.
How big is this shipment? It amounts to 40,000 tons of bombs. For perspective, the largest American air raid of World War Two was the Eighth Air Force’s attack on Berlin in March of 1945. Combined, the 2,023 Allied aircraft involved dropped about 3,000 tons of bombs. That’s 7.5 percent of what Trump is sending to Israel. That same month, March of 1945, the US Army Air Forces began the single most destructive bombing raid in human history, Operation Meetinghouse over Tokyo. More than 100,000 Japanese civilians were killed. By the end of that operation, the US had dropped 1,600 tons of bombs. That’s four percent of what Trump is sending to Israel. World War Two ended five months later, when the US dropped an atomic bomb on the city of Hiroshima. The shipment Trump is sending to Israel amounts to more than three times the destructive power of that nuclear explosion. There is no precedent for what the Trump administration is doing.
Nor is there a justification. The government of Israel is not fighting World War Two, or even a war. It is engaged in periodic skirmishes with a guerrilla force in Lebanon, and it is working to exterminate an unarmed civilian population in Gaza. Neither front requires modern 2,000-pound bombs.
An American-made Mark 84 has a destruction radius of half a mile. It releases a thermal wave the temperature of the surface of the sun. Within 100 feet of the explosion, rock melts and human flesh turns to vapor. The bomb collapses apartment buildings and leaves craters thirty-five feet deep. Until the war with Iran, the US military generally avoided using the Mark 84 in urban areas. It kills too many civilians.
For the Netanyahu government, that’s been the upside. In the weeks after October 7, the IDF dropped nearly six hundred 2,000-pound bombs on densely populated areas in Gaza, including on more than 100 officially designated civilian evacuation zones. The slaughter was so grotesque and embarrassing that for a moment the Biden administration paused a shipment of Mark 84s. Those shipments quickly resumed under Trump. Now they’ve accelerated.
It’s hard to overstate the scale of the crime the Israeli government is committing in Gaza. Over the last three years, more than a quarter-million Palestinians have been killed or wounded by Israeli forces there. The majority of them have been noncombatants: women, the elderly and tens of thousands of children. Many thousands more remain missing, presumably entombed under the rubble of 200,000 collapsed buildings. So far the Israelis have destroyed 92 percent of all homes in Gaza, and 34 of the 36 hospitals. By comparison, the 1945 Allied bombings of Dresden, now acknowledged as a war crime, destroyed about half of the city’s inhabited buildings.
By any definition, what the Netanyahu government has done in Gaza is genocide. The 40,000 new bombs the Trump administration is sending will be used to do the same in Lebanon, and likely in other countries in the region. If you wanted to extend the Iran war into the indefinite future, this is exactly what you’d do.
So far none of this has received public scrutiny. At some point, inevitably, it will be described in media accounts as an “arms sale.” It is not an arms sale. It is a gift, funded by American taxpayers through the Foreign Military Financing program, an arrangement designed to disguise welfare as capitalism: Congress appropriates money to the executive branch, which transfers the cash to Israel to “buy” American-made weapons, in this case from General Dynamics. Politicians claim this is a win for America. Most voters have no idea they paid for it. The bill in this case is about $3 billion. Add that to the $352 billion the US Treasury has transferred to Israel since 1951.
How did this happen? The request for 40,000 new high-explosive civilian-killing bombs originated at the US Embassy in Jerusalem, which is run by Christian Zionist Ambassador Mike Huckabee and his aide David Milstein, who is the stepson of Fox News host Mark Levin. From there it moved to the State Department, where Marco Rubio enthusiastically approved it.
At this point, only four more people need to sign off before the bombs ship to Israel: Senators Jim Risch and Jeanne Shaheen, the chairman and ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee; and Congressmen Brian Mast and Gregory Meeks, the top two members of the equivalent House committee. All four are committed neocons. Collectively they’ve taken millions from the Israel lobby. In 2015, Brian Mast traveled to Israel to volunteer for the Israeli military. In 2023, Mast showed up in the House of Representatives wearing an IDF uniform.
It’s hard to imagine any of them hesitating before sending more free bombs to Israel. Only public outrage can stop this.
 
the Washington post reported this, at least the $2.8 billion ‘sale’ of arms to Israel.

I will never, ever vote for a politician who takes AIPAC money. I do not want my tax dollars supporting Christian nationalist/Zionists bent on genocide and extermination of a people. Nor will I stand for this false ridiculous labeling of antisemitism for speaking in support of a people facing extermination. Disgusting. There is no place for this in humanity.

Speaking about it on an online anonymous forum is the absolute bare minimum of what one can do. What Israel is doing in Gaza is disgusting and everyone should speak out about it. Do not support this genocide.
 
What’s happening in Texas?


Racist bigotry. The guy looks the part but he’s a racist bigot. So much in that article. Wanting to reverse immigration bc they’re ’afraid of what our future looks like’. Putting out a poll asking whether Jews or Muslims are a bigger threat to America. I bet not a single maga called him out for that antisemitic trash.
 
The latest from Tucker Carlson. Not sourced, but his opinion, anyway.

According to an informed federal official, in the coming months the Trump administration plans to send a total of 40,000 Mark 84 and Blu-117 bombs to the government of Israel. Each bomb weighs 2,000 pounds. This appears to be the largest transfer of conventional explosive ordnance from the United States in modern history.
How big is this shipment? It amounts to 40,000 tons of bombs. For perspective, the largest American air raid of World War Two was the Eighth Air Force’s attack on Berlin in March of 1945. Combined, the 2,023 Allied aircraft involved dropped about 3,000 tons of bombs. That’s 7.5 percent of what Trump is sending to Israel. That same month, March of 1945, the US Army Air Forces began the single most destructive bombing raid in human history, Operation Meetinghouse over Tokyo. More than 100,000 Japanese civilians were killed. By the end of that operation, the US had dropped 1,600 tons of bombs. That’s four percent of what Trump is sending to Israel. World War Two ended five months later, when the US dropped an atomic bomb on the city of Hiroshima. The shipment Trump is sending to Israel amounts to more than three times the destructive power of that nuclear explosion. There is no precedent for what the Trump administration is doing.
Nor is there a justification. The government of Israel is not fighting World War Two, or even a war. It is engaged in periodic skirmishes with a guerrilla force in Lebanon, and it is working to exterminate an unarmed civilian population in Gaza. Neither front requires modern 2,000-pound bombs.
An American-made Mark 84 has a destruction radius of half a mile. It releases a thermal wave the temperature of the surface of the sun. Within 100 feet of the explosion, rock melts and human flesh turns to vapor. The bomb collapses apartment buildings and leaves craters thirty-five feet deep. Until the war with Iran, the US military generally avoided using the Mark 84 in urban areas. It kills too many civilians.
For the Netanyahu government, that’s been the upside. In the weeks after October 7, the IDF dropped nearly six hundred 2,000-pound bombs on densely populated areas in Gaza, including on more than 100 officially designated civilian evacuation zones. The slaughter was so grotesque and embarrassing that for a moment the Biden administration paused a shipment of Mark 84s. Those shipments quickly resumed under Trump. Now they’ve accelerated.
It’s hard to overstate the scale of the crime the Israeli government is committing in Gaza. Over the last three years, more than a quarter-million Palestinians have been killed or wounded by Israeli forces there. The majority of them have been noncombatants: women, the elderly and tens of thousands of children. Many thousands more remain missing, presumably entombed under the rubble of 200,000 collapsed buildings. So far the Israelis have destroyed 92 percent of all homes in Gaza, and 34 of the 36 hospitals. By comparison, the 1945 Allied bombings of Dresden, now acknowledged as a war crime, destroyed about half of the city’s inhabited buildings.
By any definition, what the Netanyahu government has done in Gaza is genocide. The 40,000 new bombs the Trump administration is sending will be used to do the same in Lebanon, and likely in other countries in the region. If you wanted to extend the Iran war into the indefinite future, this is exactly what you’d do.
So far none of this has received public scrutiny. At some point, inevitably, it will be described in media accounts as an “arms sale.” It is not an arms sale. It is a gift, funded by American taxpayers through the Foreign Military Financing program, an arrangement designed to disguise welfare as capitalism: Congress appropriates money to the executive branch, which transfers the cash to Israel to “buy” American-made weapons, in this case from General Dynamics. Politicians claim this is a win for America. Most voters have no idea they paid for it. The bill in this case is about $3 billion. Add that to the $352 billion the US Treasury has transferred to Israel since 1951.
How did this happen? The request for 40,000 new high-explosive civilian-killing bombs originated at the US Embassy in Jerusalem, which is run by Christian Zionist Ambassador Mike Huckabee and his aide David Milstein, who is the stepson of Fox News host Mark Levin. From there it moved to the State Department, where Marco Rubio enthusiastically approved it.
At this point, only four more people need to sign off before the bombs ship to Israel: Senators Jim Risch and Jeanne Shaheen, the chairman and ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee; and Congressmen Brian Mast and Gregory Meeks, the top two members of the equivalent House committee. All four are committed neocons. Collectively they’ve taken millions from the Israel lobby. In 2015, Brian Mast traveled to Israel to volunteer for the Israeli military. In 2023, Mast showed up in the House of Representatives wearing an IDF uniform.
It’s hard to imagine any of them hesitating before sending more free bombs to Israel. Only public outrage can stop this.
Jesus Christ.


Article gifted.
 
Racist bigotry. The guy looks the part but he’s a racist bigot. So much in that article. Wanting to reverse immigration bc they’re ’afraid of what our future looks like’. Putting out a poll asking whether Jews or Muslims are a bigger threat to America. I bet not a single maga called him out for that antisemitic trash.
And folks wonder why maga is considered more racist...
 
Where would someone in Palestine extricate themselves to, exactly? What if the terrorist is also the an authoritarian government? What if said government suppresses dissent with violence and you have no recourse? Are they just as bad as the terrorist government?

Look at the recent uprising in Iran. The Iranian government killed several thousand of their own citizens to suppress the rebellion.
Revolutions aren't bloodless or safe or guaranteed to succeed. The fact that it would be dangerous for a Gazan to start or join a movement to violently overthrow Hamas doesn't absolve them of their duty to do so. Presumably, if they're not evil themselves then they
1) have moral and ethical objections to what Hamas has done and is doing
2) might weigh the risk of their passive acquiescence to Hamas' ongoing actions more than the risk of opposing Hamas
Their continued inaction perplexes me.

Hamas could end the war at any moment with their unconditional surrender.


Full credit to the Iranians who protested, fought, and were killed for opposing their government. It's a shame that Gazans didn't and don't have such conviction and ambition. Why is that?


The problem I think you (and others) have here is far too narrow a lens. Today, there's no place for a Gazan to extricate himself too. (Though it's worth noting that none of their supposed "allies" in the region will take any of them in as refugees.) A Gazan who rises up against Hamas today is likely to be killed. But again, their government started a war and took hostages. Why are there so few wanna-be-martyrs willing to stand up to that?

The choice that put them in this terrible, nearly hopeless spot isn't them choosing, today, not to hop the fence into Egypt or, today, choosing not to overthrow Hamas. The choice was in electing and supporting Hamas all the days before Oct 7th. Their plight is a long, long series of deliberate choices and missed opportunities stretching back many, many years.

Their elected government started a war and took hostages. FA, FO.


Now, I've written this here a number of times before (including immediately after the Oct 7 attacks) but I think Israel's response to invade Gaza was dumb. Strategically unsound and guaranteed to be long-term harmful to Israel. They had a strategic and political opportunity to go another way, to a far better result, and they squandered it. (Much as the USA did post 9/11 when we went into Iraq.) But I can't really fault Israel for leaving no two stones atop one another and salting the ground.

I can and do fault Israel for just about everything they're doing in the West Bank while the world is distracted while the suicide cult in Gaza is having its collective suicide obliged by Israel.

There are innocents in Gaza - every kid. I am sympathetic. But the adults bought their tickets, by action or inaction, by their enthusiastic participation or their apathy or their cowardly inaction. And the (many) errors that brought them to this point were made long before Oct 7th. I struggle to conjure sympathy for them.
 
Revolutions aren't bloodless or safe or guaranteed to succeed. The fact that it would be dangerous for a Gazan to start or join a movement to violently overthrow Hamas doesn't absolve them of their duty to do so. Presumably, if they're not evil themselves then they
1) have moral and ethical objections to what Hamas has done and is doing
2) might weigh the risk of their passive acquiescence to Hamas' ongoing actions more than the risk of opposing Hamas
Their continued inaction perplexes me.

Hamas could end the war at any moment with their unconditional surrender.


Full credit to the Iranians who protested, fought, and were killed for opposing their government. It's a shame that Gazans didn't and don't have such conviction and ambition. Why is that?


The problem I think you (and others) have here is far too narrow a lens. Today, there's no place for a Gazan to extricate himself too. (Though it's worth noting that none of their supposed "allies" in the region will take any of them in as refugees.) A Gazan who rises up against Hamas today is likely to be killed. But again, their government started a war and took hostages. Why are there so few wanna-be-martyrs willing to stand up to that?

The choice that put them in this terrible, nearly hopeless spot isn't them choosing, today, not to hop the fence into Egypt or, today, choosing not to overthrow Hamas. The choice was in electing and supporting Hamas all the days before Oct 7th. Their plight is a long, long series of deliberate choices and missed opportunities stretching back many, many years.

Their elected government started a war and took hostages. FA, FO.


Now, I've written this here a number of times before (including immediately after the Oct 7 attacks) but I think Israel's response to invade Gaza was dumb. Strategically unsound and guaranteed to be long-term harmful to Israel. They had a strategic and political opportunity to go another way, to a far better result, and they squandered it. (Much as the USA did post 9/11 when we went into Iraq.) But I can't really fault Isrsel for leaving no two stones atop one another and salting the ground.

I can and do fault Israel for just about everything they're doing in the West Bank while the world is distracted by the suicide cult in Gaza is having its collective suicide obliged by Israel.

There are innocents in Gaza - every kid. I am sympathetic. But the adults bought their tickets, by action or inaction, by their enthusiastic participation or their apathy or their cowardly inaction. And the (many) errors that brought them to this point were made long before Oct 7th. I struggle to conjure sympathy for them.
So it's okay to exterminate them?
 
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As an aside, just insane that Trump and co saw how badly a proxy war in Ukraine was for Russia and still said “I’d love to have one myself.” And went after Iran.
Trump is stupid, and surrounds himself with yes men who tell him what he wants to hear.

SecDef is a DUI hire. Possibly the least qualified and least competent man to ever hold that position, ever.

The hell of it is we predicted this kind of foreign policy catastrophe prior to the election, repeatedly pointing out how Trump II would have none of the competent career state dept officials, diplomats, and senior advisors that served as guardrails during his first term. We knew he'd throw military weight around and only the truly clueless naive actually believed he was an "anti-war" president. Except to the extent that he was a draft dodger himself and repeatedly expressed contempt for military servicemembers.

And people voted for him anyway. Even in this thread we had guys reassuring us that Trump I wasn't a total disaster so Trump II would be fine.

China and Russia et al I’m sure are absolutely gleeful funneling weapons/resources/intel to Iran until the end of time.

Well, Russia isn't exporting weapons anywhere except Ukraine.

Military powerhouses picking fights with small countries and ending up in endless proxy wars is the “marching Napoleonic formations straight into trench lines” of the 2020s.

I'd argue that as stupid as Trump's war in Iran is, he does have the ability at any time to walk away. We haven't sent boots into the meat grinder there the way Russia has in Ukraine.
 
No.

It's OK to bulldoze the place, destroy everything, right up until the moment the enemy offers up their unconditional surrender.

Again, I think it was a dumb plan, and Israel had far better options, but it's OK.

That's what a war is.
I usually find your posts reasonable and pragmatic, even if I disagree on some of your points. What happened on 10/7 was in excusable and horrific, and I feel for the Israeli people. Hamas made a grave miscalculation. But you very eloquently justify murder without calling it murder. Israel was 'stupid.' But you failed to say what they are doing is wrong. You didn't call it immoral. There's no outrage. They can bulldoze and destroy everything? Really? On what planet do you live? Rule of international law? I wonder if this is cognitive dissonance.
 
No.

It's OK to bulldoze the place, destroy everything, right up until the moment the enemy offers up their unconditional surrender.

Again, I think it was a dumb plan, and Israel had far better options, but it's OK.

That's what a war is.
So can we do the same thing to Iran then? We’re at war with Iran so can we repeatedly bomb Tehran until the Iranian government surrenders dead kids be damned? Sure there was no October 7th against us but Iran and its proxies have killed hundreds if not thousands of Americans. Iran sponsors terrorists around the world. Many of the Iranian people supported the Islamic revolution in 1979 and many still support it today so why can’t we starve them? They’ve had 47 years to overthrow their government but haven’t. Sure some have stood up and been killed for it but overall the Iranian people haven’t succeeded so I guess they are complicit and we can kill them? If they don’t want to be killed by our bombs then they should risk their lives in a different way and overthrow their government?

How is what we did to the girls school abhorrent but what Israel continues to do in Gaza justified cause “it’s war”?
 
All wars have accidents, mistakes, collateral damage, and also, always deliberate atrocities and war crimes. These are good reasons to avoid war, whether one thinks it's justified or not.

The only thing worse than believing all wars are justified, is believing no wars are.

Collateral damage, even when truly accidental, is a lot less forgivable and understandable when the war itself is optional or unjustified.

Case in point - our attacks on Iran are completely unjustified (and strategically idiotic as well). I offer no defense of the leaders who chose to start it. But here's the thing - I'm an American, and it's my elected government that did it (even though I didn't vote for Trump), and so it's also my fault. And if Iran sent a ballistic missile that hit my town or my home or my family, well, that's the FO part of FAFO.

I'm outraged enough with what my country is doing to Iran to be willing to speak against it, and vote out the party responsible for it.

I'm not outraged enough to pick up a rifle and try to overthrow my government.


I'm mostly apathetic about the Gaza suicide cult leading its people into ruin. All my life I've watched that Israeli-Palestinean ****show unfold, and in the end, I've picked a side from afar. I'm not a Jew or Muslim, I don't have friends or family there, it all affects me very little. But over my lifetime I've observed things I respect out of Israel - restraint, democracy, and a culture that values many of the same things I do. All my life they have been surrounded by peoples and nations that I generally don't identify with, whose governments tend toward authoritarianism.

As with any conflict, let alone a multi-decade poly-party conflict with a big dose of religious zealotry, there is ample fault on all sides. I just find less fault with Israel on the whole, and after the democratically elected actual government of Gaza sent uniformed soldiers into Israel to kill civilians and take hostages, I was not the slightest bit surprised to see Israel go to war.

I find that war in Gaza to be fundamentally different from our war in Iran, or Russia's war in Ukraine. I accept Israel's stated objective to destroy Hamas and don't begrudge them the right to wage total war against their enemy until that enemy surrenders.

And again. It could end tomorrow with the unconditional surrender of Hamas.
 
"Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent told lawmakers on Tuesday that the US Treasury is examining whether the Trump administration can give Americans a $5,000 dividend without going through Congress, and he believes there is a way to do it without adding to the deficit."


Weren't people here saying this guy was the adult in the room? Wtf happened?
 
I’m sorry. I like you man. But pointing out the “rich powerful people” in America (Jews) black balling Macklemore (pro-Palestinian sentiment), then the conspiracy segue into Bibi wanting/causing 10/7 is clearly antisemetic. There is a lot of hiding behind “antizionism” and “conflation” but we need to call a spade a spade here.

Macklemore, in “costume” btw…
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This Guitar Center promo has unfortunate (or fortunate?) timing.

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"Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent told lawmakers on Tuesday that the US Treasury is examining whether the Trump administration can give Americans a $5,000 dividend without going through Congress, and he believes there is a way to do it without adding to the deficit."


Weren't people here saying this guy was the adult in the room? Wtf happened?
Lol.

Probably going to be some empty promise that they will pay after the midterms and then forget about it...like those doge checks

Or, even better, they will just say it's a tax cut and the wealthy will get 90% of it
 
All wars have accidents, mistakes, collateral damage, and also, always deliberate atrocities and war crimes. These are good reasons to avoid war, whether one thinks it's justified or not.

The only thing worse than believing all wars are justified, is believing no wars are.

Collateral damage, even when truly accidental, is a lot less forgivable and understandable when the war itself is optional or unjustified.

Case in point - our attacks on Iran are completely unjustified (and strategically idiotic as well). I offer no defense of the leaders who chose to start it. But here's the thing - I'm an American, and it's my elected government that did it (even though I didn't vote for Trump), and so it's also my fault. And if Iran sent a ballistic missile that hit my town or my home or my family, well, that's the FO part of FAFO.

I'm outraged enough with what my country is doing to Iran to be willing to speak against it, and vote out the party responsible for it.

I'm not outraged enough to pick up a rifle and try to overthrow my government.


I'm mostly apathetic about the Gaza suicide cult leading its people into ruin. All my life I've watched that Israeli-Palestinean ****show unfold, and in the end, I've picked a side from afar. I'm not a Jew or Muslim, I don't have friends or family there, it all affects me very little. But over my lifetime I've observed things I respect out of Israel - restraint, democracy, and a culture that values many of the same things I do. All my life they have been surrounded by peoples and nations that I generally don't identify with, whose governments tend toward authoritarianism.

As with any conflict, let alone a multi-decade poly-party conflict with a big dose of religious zealotry, there is ample fault on all sides. I just find less fault with Israel on the whole, and after the democratically elected actual government of Gaza sent uniformed soldiers into Israel to kill civilians and take hostages, I was not the slightest bit surprised to see Israel go to war.

I find that war in Gaza to be fundamentally different from our war in Iran, or Russia's war in Ukraine. I accept Israel's stated objective to destroy Hamas and don't begrudge them the right to wage total war against their enemy until that enemy surrenders.

And again. It could end tomorrow with the unconditional surrender of Hamas.

Except they aren’t really waging war on their enemy. They’re waging war on a bunch of civilian woman and children who may very well have not been alive when Hamas was elected. But I have no idea who they want to represent them. My assumption is, like most humans, they want to raise their children and live in peace. Too bad so sad for them I suppose. We shrug, check the markets, slam back a taco, and move on with our day I guess.
 
Here’s a more appropriate parallel. Trump is warring Iran. I mean, who really knows what he’s doing there bc he’s an idiot. But suppose rather than kill the IRGC like we said we’d do, since we’re at war w their country, we drone bombed every piece of necessary civilian structure. Power plants, water sanitation, bridges, etc.

Also we bomb every building we decide an IRGC soldier may have been in recently. We bomb 92% of their residential buildings. 92% of their residential structures! - gone!

Famine, starvation, and disease spread through Iran. We tell every neighboring country they will not take in Iranians or we’ll war them too. Iranians are trapped.

Next, we bomb their hospitals bc some IRGC may be in them. We bomb emergency vehicles going out to help. Not all, just some.

We kill more than 250 journalists, then declare it unsafe for journalists. Nothing is documented. We do not let in humanitarian aid - food and water, for periods of time. Too risky we say.

By the way, in the parallel Iranians haven’t had free and fair elections for two decades, but it’s the IRGC in power and who we say we are at war with. We tell them - just give up and we’ll stop.

We kill over 100,000 Iranian civilians and over 20,000 Iranian kids. Every genocidal authority says we’re committing a genocide. The media at large (who aren’t allowed in to document the atrocities) say the same.

Oh, by the way, Trump repeatedly glamorizes Iranians geography alluding to how beautiful it’d be to develop into golf clubs and hotels. He uses AI to help glamorize this during the genocide.

This is a more apt parallel.
 
Here’s a more appropriate parallel. Trump is warring Iran. I mean, who really knows what he’s doing there bc he’s an idiot. But suppose rather than kill the IRGC like we said we’d do, since we’re at war w their country, we drone bombed every piece of necessary civilian structure. Power plants, water sanitation, bridges, etc.

Also we bomb every building we decide an IRGC soldier may have been in recently. We bomb 92% of their residential buildings. 92% of their residential structures! - gone!

Famine, starvation, and disease spread through Iran. We tell every neighboring country they will not take in Iranians or we’ll war them too. Iranians are trapped.

Next, we bomb their hospitals bc some IRGC may be in them. We bomb emergency vehicles going out to help. Not all, just some.

We kill more than 250 journalists, then declare it unsafe for journalists. Nothing is documented. We do not let in humanitarian aid - food and water, for periods of time. Too risky we say.

By the way, in the parallel Iranians haven’t had free and fair elections for two decades, but it’s the IRGC in power and who we say we are at war with. We tell them - just give up and we’ll stop.

We kill over 100,000 Iranian civilians and over 20,000 Iranian kids. Every genocidal authority says we’re committing a genocide. The media at large (who aren’t allowed in to document the atrocities) say the same.

Oh, by the way, Trump repeatedly glamorizes Iranians geography alluding to how beautiful it’d be to develop into golf clubs and hotels. He uses AI to help glamorize this during the genocide.

This is a more apt parallel.
If the IRGC attacked us and took Americans hostage, then refused to meet us on the battlefield, threatening to do it again in the future, I wouldn’t be opposed to this.

I disagree with that point from a previous poster that it’s fair to blame the common Palestinian for this mess. They are innocent victims.
 
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By the way, as many have gathered, there are many complex sociopolitical issues in Gaza and neighboring countries and I don’t presume to know them all. If Gazans were allowed to just leave there wouldn’t be much need for a two state solution, as many neighboring countries desire.
 
If the IRGC attacked us and took Americans hostage, then refused to meet us on the battlefield, threatening to do it again in the future, I wouldn’t be opposed to this.

And if they offered to release the hostages the night of the initial attack?

Look, appetites for genocide vary I guess. I guess I don’t really have one. While many, @pgg included, see war as a necessary evil, I don’t. I also don’t think it’s realistic for entities such as Gazan civilians to offer much resistance in the face of the IDF. I imagine Hamas claims to represent Gazans. I have no idea if Gazans feel the same.

By the way, no war will ever again see troops face off on a battlefield.
 
And if they offered to release the hostages the night of the initial attack?
Hamas used the hostages as leverage to try and stop a counterattack. It’s no surprise Israel said “you can’t just attack us and expect us not to retaliate because you took hostages.”

Hamas is not a sympathetic organization, and it makes liberals look silly when we back them up.
 
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Hamas used the hostages as leverage to try and stop a counterattack. It’s no surprise Israel said “you can’t just attack us and expect us not to retaliate because you took hostages.”

Hamas is not a sympathetic organization, and it makes liberals look silly when we back them up.

Totally agree. I haven’t seen anyone here back Hamas. They’re awful. Take em out.
 
Totally agree. I haven’t seen anyone here back Hamas. They’re awful. Take em out.
Backing up their claim to release hostages as if it was just a show of mercy rather than a tactical decision is a Hamas talking point.

I can’t break into your house, destroy all your stuff, steal your car, and then say “We’re all good if I return the car, right?”
 
Backing up their claim to release hostages as if it was just a show of mercy rather than a tactical decision is a Hamas talking point.

I can’t break into your house, destroy all your stuff, steal your car, and then say “We’re all good if I return the car, right?”

It’d be naive to have that expectation on anyone’s part.

Really, truly, listen to some more educated voices out there. Listen to some Piers Morgan. Listen to some Mehdi Hasan. Piers said for well over a year ‘Israel has a right to defend itself’. They do! They however do not have a right to genocide a people.

You can think otherwise. Plenty of Israel supporters think it’s fine to genocide Gazans and take their land, just like plenty think it’s fine to invade southern Lebanon and take their land, just like plenty believe it’s fine to build illegal settlements in the West Bank.
 
38 children were killed on October 7th by Hamas. Israel has killed over 20,000 children since then. At what point is enough enough or is there truly no limit to the amount of children they should be allowed to kill in this war?

October 7th was horrific no doubt but I don’t think it gives the Israeli government the right to do whatever it wants international law or basic morals be damned.
 
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