Class of 2021 job market insights

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All very fair points... but it doesn't address one thing. Your comments, as well as others in this thread, are being read by rising third and fourth year medical students who are feverishly trying to decide what specialty to go into. The overall poor state of our specialty, and poor projected state of our specialty over the next several years (potentially decades), is sinking in. All of a sudden, other specialties are becoming more appealing. The supply from the medical school standpoint, I suspect, will likely cool off. If you look at the boom in the number of applicants to residency, I think it was very much reflective of the comments in this forum over the past several years i.e. 500/hr wages, good locums opportunities, etc. Now that those have dissipated, I wonder if the rate of growth of new physicians will slow down. I reckon that it will still be a long while before we have a true shortage per se, given we still have a lot of hungry docs who want to make some coin.

I also really, really want everyone in this forum to hone in on a key point in the above post... that being regarding ACEP. If you want ACEP to do something, now is the time to stop paying them dues. I agree they are in bed with the CMGs, but now more than ever is the time to divert your funds (if you are lucky to have any) to AAEM.
I think the guy of docs plus the high amount of debt and many people just generally being poor handling money will mean there wont be a shortage regardless of the number of spots. I would say you better be ready to either live where no one wants or to commute to a location an hour from a decent place to live. The real worry is your skills will rot at a low volume moderate to low acuity site. Then the CMGs will cut pay and you will accept a job well below market cause you need to refine your skills and gain expertise in practicing without an attending looking over your work.

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Yep, the cold, harsh reality is that FM/IM with experience make for great EM docs. This is coming from an ABEM doc. Yes, I can notice an immediate higher quality in competence when comparing a fresh RRC EM graduate versus someone FM with a year EM fellowship but once the FM guy is seasoned, it's really not noticeable at all to me. Most of the EDs in my city don't have an ABEM only bylaw except for the academic ED where our residency program is located. I suppose if it's in a high demand location then the FM guys might not have access to certain EDs, but let's face it, the majority of EDs in the country don't require ABEM.

I think this is an example of why we get such little respect from other specialties in the hospital. I mean, where do you see an IM guy doing an appendectomy or an FM guy doing endoscopies and colonoscopies? How about FM doing heart caths? People know we're a melting pot of different specialties and view us as nothing more than triage doctors. And you know what? Some days I DO feel like a triage doctor... Hell, I've worked with general surgeons, IM, FM, 1 ENT doc and two cardiologists, all who were FT or PT emergency docs. What does that say about the specialty? The ENT doc (FT) and the cardiologist (one PT and the other FT) blew my mind...and all of them were great EPs!
I think most specialties that get the initial contact with patients (I want to say primary care but that's not y'all) have the same problem. If you're not pretty specialized, everyone thinks they can do your job as well as you do.
 
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Yeah, the irony is that back then my dad can remember working in the ED as an intern. You basically triaged and stabilized and called for help at the first available opportunity where the specialist kind of took over, at least according to him. So, we develop this specialty where we want to "bring skills the specialist possesses and put them in the hands of the ED docs" who are now more specialized and have a more varied skillset. I.E. Don't need to call the surgeon for chest tubes, don't need to call anesthesia for intubations, don't need to call cards to cardiovert, etc.. The thought was to bring critical care medicine and initiate it early in the ED because that's what was best for the pt.

Now what do we have today? CMG/hospitals/c-suite obsession with TATS, LWOTS, AMAs, LOS, etc.. EPs brow beat to discharge and/or admit as fast as they can. Faster, faster! (whip cracking on our backs) No more bringing critical care medicine to the ED, it's almost as if we've reversed thought and are now going backwards or full circle around to our starting point. But hey, it was a nice 48 year experiment...

It seems the common trend these days is to have plenty of midlevels in EM to triage pts. At least that's what they do in my community hospital. Because of shift work it's very appealing to midlevels. I won't be surprised if EM becomes predominantly midlevel run in 10 years.
 
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It seems the common trend these days is to have plenty of midlevels in EM to triage pts. At least that's what they do in my community hospital. Because of shift work it's very appealing to midlevels. I won't be surprised if EM becomes predominantly midlevel run in 10 years.
I dont think this will be the case. The biggest thing that could kill MLPs is a move to value based reimbursement. Our system is full ****** whereby i lower my risk, generally increase billing (aka my paycheck) and increase costs to the system by ordering more. AKA the less I use my brain the more money I make. The better I chart to explain why I didnt order a test the lower my pay.

The favors the non thinking protocol loving MLPs. Frankly some of the CMG/HCA ******ocs that will come out of their training will be the same.
 
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I dont think this will be the case. The biggest thing that could kill MLPs is a move to value based reimbursement. Our system is full ****** whereby i lower my risk, generally increase billing (aka my paycheck) and increase costs to the system by ordering more. AKA the less I use my brain the more money I make. The better I chart to explain why I didnt order a test the lower my pay.

The favors the non thinking protocol loving MLPs. Frankly some of the CMG/HCA ******ocs that will come out of their training will be the same.

This is very true. Unnecessary tests, unnecessary admissions, unnecessary antibiotics are slowly becoming the standard of care and that's inflating hospital charge and insurance payments. Why would these hospitals care if you are smart enough to do the appropriate testing and treatment. Why not just CAT scan the whole body, start vanco Zosyn and admit to medicine for sepsis; hospital makes $$$ for a simple gastroenteritis . Really sad with the state of medicine in US.
 
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This is very true. Unnecessary tests, unnecessary admissions, unnecessary antibiotics are slowly becoming the standard of care and that's inflating hospital charge and insurance payments. Why would these hospitals care if you are smart enough to do the appropriate testing and treatment. Why not just CAT scan the whole body, start vanco Zosyn and admit to medicine for sepsis; hospital makes $$$ for a simple gastroenteritis . Really sad with the state of medicine in US.

You must be new to this game.
 
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Umm how do i break this to you.. Thats not an SDG.. USACS is a CMG even with their partnership. We can argue about vituity but I don’t think they are in Denver.

It’s cool you’re not believing me. I know the difference between an SDG and a CMG. Just choosing not to identify the specific SDGs I spoke with.
 
Yep, the cold, harsh reality is that FM/IM with experience make for great EM docs. This is coming from an ABEM doc. Yes, I can notice an immediate higher quality in competence when comparing a fresh RRC EM graduate versus someone FM with a year EM fellowship but once the FM guy is seasoned, it's really not noticeable at all to me. Most of the EDs in my city don't have an ABEM only bylaw except for the academic ED where our residency program is located. I suppose if it's in a high demand location then the FM guys might not have access to certain EDs, but let's face it, the majority of EDs in the country don't require ABEM.

I think this is an example of why we get such little respect from other specialties in the hospital. I mean, where do you see an IM guy doing an appendectomy or an FM guy doing endoscopies and colonoscopies? How about FM doing heart caths? People know we're a melting pot of different specialties and view us as nothing more than triage doctors. And you know what? Some days I DO feel like a triage doctor... Hell, I've worked with general surgeons, IM, FM, 1 ENT doc and two cardiologists, all who were FT or PT emergency docs. What does that say about the specialty? The ENT doc (FT) and the cardiologist (one PT and the other FT) blew my mind...and all of them were great EPs!

Now what do we have today? CMG/hospitals/c-suite obsession with TATS, LWOTS, AMAs, LOS, etc.. EPs brow beat to discharge and/or admit as fast as they can. Faster, faster! (whip cracking on our backs) No more bringing critical care medicine to the ED, it's almost as if we've reversed thought and are now going backwards or full circle around to our starting point. But hey, it was a nice 48 year experiment...

Every medical student and resident should read these posts!!

The level of honest hard-to-swallow truth displayed here is astounding. Absolutely valuable insight and it pains me so much to agree. I used to tow the ABEM party line, and early on in the life of EM it made a ton of sense, but as Groove suggests we have gone "backwards or full circle." The only people who recognize the value of a BCEM physician are other BCEM physicians. Literally nobody else cares.

Impressive insight Groove!
 
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Two years out of residency, not certain if I'll even last 10 years. Starting to burn out.
I am 1 year out and already crispified by the BS. Been debating which exit(s) to take.


Yep.
I was there as well, amigos.
I got so toasted that I had to take about 14 days "off" in January/February because I was really in a bad spot.

This job is bad for you.
 
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Yep.
I was there as well, amigos.
I got so toasted that I had to take about 14 days "off" in January/February because I was really in a bad spot.

This job is bad for you.

I've found that when I take (those rare) 2 week breaks to decompress and fight the burn-out it becomes harder to come back at the end of it. Too much of the other side maybe?

I'm afraid if I take maybe a month or longer to travel somewhere with the kid and wife that I might not come back !! :laugh:
 
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I think you can love medicine and EM but you have to have an outlet. Our lack of control of our practice is astounding and depressing. I feel lucky that I’m 10+ into this and truly feel I have plenty left in the tank. For me its having been in an SDG x2. outside of a few months Ive spent my whole career working in an SDG.

I also think doing admin or something other than clinical medicine is a healthy and useful path to prevent burnout. Thats just my 2 cents.
 
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I've found that when I take (those rare) 2 week breaks to decompress and fight the burn-out it becomes harder to come back at the end of it. Too much of the other side maybe?

I'm afraid if I take maybe a month or longer to travel somewhere with the kid and wife that I might not come back !! :laugh:

We don't have PTO or sick leave (unlike our NP/PA) taking long leave means making up for those missing shifts which is terrible.
 
I actually think this is one of the biggest problems with EM. No ability to take true time off without either getting clobbered for it later or losing money. I have to wonder if PTO would go a long ways towards some job satisfaction and sustainability.
That's not unique to EM. If I take time off, I don't earn money for those days and get much more work when I get back.
 
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I am 1 year out and already crispified by the BS. Been debating which exit(s) to take.

You’re actually in a pretty good spot careerwise to make a switch (coming from a guy who spent 15 years before starting a CCM fellowship). I say that because any good exit plan will take ~1-2 years to properly execute. That will give you 2-3 years of EM experience to buff out your CV, save your pesos, and make sure this is what you want to do. I know that an additional 1-2 years sounds unbearable. But believe me when I say that it goes by fast and there is an amazing weight lifted from your shoulders once you commit to an exodus and begin working on a plan. My wife said that I simply became a much happier person - I lost weight, enjoyed reading up on my future speciality, met new colleagues in CCM, etc.

Probably the first step is to decide if there is an aspect of clinical EM that you still enjoy or are you through with clinical practice in general. For me, I really, really loved taking care of sick as piss patients. So much so I have no problem spending 24+ hours straight in the ICU getting hammered with admissions. I literally spend waking hours and long runs letting my mind wander about vent settings, pressor/inotrope combination, ECMO, etc. You may like sports med, research, tox/occ med, etc.

If you plan on leaving clinical practice completely, the calculus changes. First, you need to decide how much you are willing to sacrifice in income since most alternative non-clinical careers play less. It could be a little less or way less.

Second, you need to identify what it is outside of clinical medicine you want to pursue, your existing skill set in that area, and how long it will take to meet the entry requirements. As you can see this will interact with the income sacrifice. For example, if you want to go to law school or get an MBA/MHA, you will have to save your pennies for tuition, cost of living, or consider part-time programs if money is tight. On the other hand, people considering operational medicine with the military or law enforcement may need 1-2 years to plan for the physical requirement, application process, background check, etc. Keep in mind that you will be starting at an entry level with entry pay - the Medical Director for NASA spend more than a decade getting to that position.

As you can see, the possibilities are endless. I know EM and FM colleagues who left clinical practice to work for NASA, DOD (Rgr BN Surgeon, SF Group Surgeon, AF CCATT), FBI (as both 1811 and contractor positions), Cleveland Browns, State Department, CIA, Rand Corp, USUHS, Pharma, Transportation and Safety Admin, FEMA, DC Fire, NYFD, GE, General Motors, University of Michigan Athletics, etc.
 
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That's not unique to EM. If I take time off, I don't earn money for those days and get much more work when I get back.

I hear you, amigo - but I'm also willing to bet (I could be wrong) that your circadian rhythm doesn't suffer the disruption that ours does, and that you exercise a LOT more control over your work environment, pace, etc.

It was THOSE things that snuffed me out earlier this year.
 
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CIA pays $90k/year, last I looked.

Most of the fun federal jobs are on the GS pay scale and start between GS 10-12. For example, I made GL-10 pay + COLA while in the academy and finished at GS-13 + LEAP (don’t recall my step) when I left federal employment. There was no reimbursement for my medical licensure or CME beyond a tax deduction. Moreover, it was hard to moonlight in EM for extra cash since criminals don’t keep regular schedules. This pay cut was a major reason why I came back to medicine...that and my wife told my SAC that they would be solving my own murder if I kept up the pace and wear on my family.
 
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I hear you, amigo - but I'm also willing to bet (I could be wrong) that your circadian rhythm doesn't suffer the disruption that ours does, and that you exercise a LOT more control over your work environment, pace, etc.

It was THOSE things that snuffed me out earlier this year.
Absolutely no argument on anything you're saying and why you'll never see me saying anything negative about y'all's hourly pay compared to mine.

But none of that was in the post I was responding to. It was purely about the lack of paid PTO which many non-EM doctors don't get either.
 
I hear you, amigo - but I'm also willing to bet (I could be wrong) that your circadian rhythm doesn't suffer the disruption that ours does, and that you exercise a LOT more control over your work environment, pace, etc.

It was THOSE things that snuffed me out earlier this year.

I see most senior EM docs do only day shifts. Another 10 yr to be patient and hopeful for delayed gratification :D while NP/PA can rightfully say they aren't comfortable working nights.
 
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Did you guys feel this way as residents? Is there something that we don’t see as residents or is it the little things that just add up?
 
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Most of the fun federal jobs are on the GS pay scale and start between GS 10-12. For example, I made GL-10 pay + COLA while in the academy and finished at GS-13 + LEAP (don’t recall my step) when I left federal employment. There was no reimbursement for my medical licensure or CME beyond a tax deduction. Moreover, it was hard to moonlight in EM for extra cash since criminals don’t keep regular schedules. This pay cut was a major reason why I came back to medicine...that and my wife told my SAC that they would be solving my own murder if I kept up the pace and wear on my family.
SO much of that was jargon, but, I looked it up - in the DC metro area, GS-10 is $65.5k, and GS-13 $102.6k. So, you are giving the government quite a discount on your services. Patriotic, indeed! What I wonder is how much fun are the fun jobs for a doc in a 3 letter agency (for those wondering, FBI, CIA, NSA, NRO, DEA - those are "3 letter agencies", among others).
 
Absolutely no argument on anything you're saying and why you'll never see me saying anything negative about y'all's hourly pay compared to mine.

But none of that was in the post I was responding to. It was purely about the lack of paid PTO which many non-EM doctors don't get either.

You're right.
 
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For those of you who have taken some extended time off to focus on exit strategies, or in some cases tried something else and realized it wasn't viable, what was the experience coming back to EM after significant time off?

Were you very rusty? Did you shake off your copy of Tintinalli's? Start somewhere lower acuity?

My concern is if I have to return will I actually still be able to practice safely and not let all my skills atrophy
 
For those of you who have taken some extended time off to focus on exit strategies, or in some cases tried something else and realized it wasn't viable, what was the experience coming back to EM after significant time off?

Were you very rusty? Did you shake off your copy of Tintinalli's? Start somewhere lower acuity?

My concern is if I have to return will I actually still be able to practice safely and not let all my skills atrophy

A decade later....Don't be surprised if your hospital asks you to shadow a PA for a week or two....LOL
 
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I've heard a lot of chatter here about "other specialties have it worse". I have somewhat been a proponent of that view point, with elective procedures being cut over the past few months, the uber high paying specialties seem to have taken a hit.

From a job market standpoint, I'm too lazy to go view the other SDN forums, but I'm curious... are dermatologists/urologists/ENT graduating residents having difficulty finding jobs? Or are their markets so wide open (unlike the saturated EM market) that not even the pandemic can hold them back?

I would think that even though elective cases are picking up, overall most surgical groups will be operating at a loss this year, and therefore will be averse to hiring fresh new grads.

Just curious if "the other specialities have it worse" mantra is really playing out in terms of job prospects.
 
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Take all of that above, and it's astoundingly easy to see that even on a 10-15 year time frame there will be no "shortage." The numbers paint an obvious picture barring some omnibus legislative package, and really at this point the only thing that could shake things up substantially is single payer (and god help us if that becomes a reality, thankfully the insurance lobby, pharmaceutical lobby, and cultural zeitgeist are far too powerful for this to ever be a concern. That's the first time I've ever thanked those lobbies).

I think as Gen Y and Gen Z become a larger proportion of the voting block the likelihood of a single or multiple payer government insurance system becomes more likely. The cultural will for such a system is already increasing, even among some physicians that would have been staunch opponents just a few years ago.

I would think that EM would be among the specialties most insulated from such a major change, especially in areas with a normal payer mix. Our current system and EMTALA rule ensures that a large percentage of ED visits reimburse little to nothing (Medicaid and uninsured). If all of those visits suddenly reimbursed at Medicare levels or slightly better, that would have to be weighed against the loss of the smaller number but better reimbursing private insurance patients. It likely may end up a net loss depending on what multiple of current Medicare rates an M4A system would set, but EM would likely be better buffered than other specialties that have been more reliant on patients with good private insurance.

This probably deserves its own thread, but it would be prudent for physician professional societies to draft their own framework for an M4A type system that is most favorable for physicians so that if the day comes that such legislation is clearly viable that physicians have a big seat at the table. The worst outcome would be to be left out of the negotiations and lose an opportunity for our expertise to make the practice of medicine better, more tolerable and more efficient.
 
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SO much of that was jargon, but, I looked it up - in the DC metro area, GS-10 is $65.5k, and GS-13 $102.6k. So, you are giving the government quite a discount on your services. Patriotic, indeed! What I wonder is how much fun are the fun jobs for a doc in a 3 letter agency (for those wondering, FBI, CIA, NSA, NRO, DEA - those are "3 letter agencies", among others).

It depends on what you want from life and your obligations. I took the federal job thinking that it would be an evolution of my military career without all the deployments, IEDs, and mortars. For a while it was great as I had no educational debt or family worries and my wife made a great living. Then, we had a kid with developmental issues and the obligation arm of the equation became very heavy as my wife wanted to stop working.

For context, I left clinical medicine the first time about 11 years ago for DOJ. At the time, I worked part-time between military deployments for a CMG that sucked mightily from the Press Ganey tit, and America‘s opiate epidemic was in full swing. There were periods when I felt like I had more in common with an Iraqi insurgent than an average American patient. Like rustedfox, I started to hate my patients. Then, I started to hate people in general. Finally, I started to hate myself. So, it wasn’t that I was patriotic, I just wanted a job where it was doing something meaningful rather than handing out oxy and hydros for bull**** dental pain. I would literally pay someone else to be allowed the privilege of doing something more meaningful than pretending to care that about the person faking back pain for the 8th time that year or needing a note for work.

I left this year for another speciality because I still enjoy taking care of complex, critically ill patients but no longer believe in the paradigm of EM as practiced in America. For example, Mel Herbert often ends his EMRAP segments telling the listeners that they are important and what they do is meaningful. That is very nice and thoughtful (seriously). However, there is a fundamental problem with the job if people need to be reminded that what they do has a purpose.
 
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Did you guys feel this way as residents? Is there something that we don’t see as residents or is it the little things that just add up?

Honestly, med school and residency were much worse for me. You have all the same downsides of the ER as when you're an attending, plus there's no nocturnist option so you're forced to constantly alter your sleep schedule, and then for some salt in your wounds you need to manage the entire fake academic ritual game on top of it. My life became 10 times easier when I became an attending because now the buck stops here and I don't need to suck up to my bosses in various stupid ways any more.

IMO, if you're paying attention on this forum, very little should surprise you about attending life in the community. And at that point it's just down to whether you can tolerate your job or not. As I've said before, I mostly just dislike working for other people in general. And I've seen this as nothing more than a well-paid and relatively pleasant job from day 1. So I derive very little of my self-worth from it and I stay sane.
 
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It depends on what you want from life and your obligations. I took the federal job thinking that it would be an evolution of my military career without all the deployments, IEDs, and mortars. For a while it was great as I had no educational debt or family worries and my wife made a great living. Then, we had a kid with developmental issues and the obligation arm of the equation became very heavy as my wife wanted to stop working.

For context, I left clinical medicine the first time about 11 years ago for DOJ. At the time, I worked part-time between military deployments for a CMG that sucked mightily from the Press Ganey tit, and America‘s opiate epidemic was in full swing. There were periods when I felt like I had more in common with an Iraqi insurgent than an average American patient. Like rustedfox, I started to hate my patients. Then, I started to hate people in general. Finally, I started to hate myself. So, it wasn’t that I was patriotic, I just wanted a job where it was doing something meaningful rather than handing out oxy and hydros for bull**** dental pain. I would literally pay someone else to be allowed the privilege of doing something more meaningful than pretending to care that about the person faking back pain for the 8th time that year or needing a note for work.

I left this year for another speciality because I still enjoy taking care of complex, critically ill patients but no longer believe in the paradigm of EM as practiced in America. For example, Mel Herbert often ends his EMRAP segments telling the listeners that they are important and what they do is meaningful. That is very nice and thoughtful (seriously). However, there is a fundamental problem with the job if people need to be reminded that what they do has a purpose.
I certainly was NOT mocking patriotism. I really get the idea that the job burns you down. Thank you for you service! I'm, honestly, happy that you found something else. I haven't. Apparently, for me, clinical medicine just isn't for me.

If you knew me, you would know that I am quite a patriot, although not nearly as accomplished than about anyone else. Just a screwball, honest American.
 
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What would the pay be like for a civilian working at a military medical center? There is a navy hospital across town from where I am headed.Trying to get some variation in practice environment so looking to pick up some shifts around my site.
 
Every medical student and resident should read these posts!!

The level of honest hard-to-swallow truth displayed here is astounding. Absolutely valuable insight and it pains me so much to agree. I used to tow the ABEM party line, and early on in the life of EM it made a ton of sense, but as Groove suggests we have gone "backwards or full circle." The only people who recognize the value of a BCEM physician are other BCEM physicians. Literally nobody else cares.

Impressive insight Groove!
I agree with this. I never thought about it but its kind of understood that IM and FM can work in the ED but its not the other way around. BCEM can't just pick up hospitalist shifts or clinic shifts seeing patients. can't work in a primary care clinic. I don't think that as a BCEM, I could do any other speciality without another residency/fellowship. Also NPs and PAs seeing patient's independently in the ED with minimal or no supervision just adds to it.

I agree with other posts about the lack of control in the ED as well. We have minimal to no control over our schedule, our flow, our workload, the staff that works with us (nurses, techs), or the patient's that come in. Its perfect for people that don't want any admin duties and just want to check in and check out but it can be hard on people too.
 
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Most of the fun federal jobs are on the GS pay scale and start between GS 10-12. For example, I made GL-10 pay + COLA while in the academy and finished at GS-13 + LEAP (don’t recall my step) when I left federal employment. There was no reimbursement for my medical licensure or CME beyond a tax deduction. Moreover, it was hard to moonlight in EM for extra cash since criminals don’t keep regular schedules. This pay cut was a major reason why I came back to medicine...that and my wife told my SAC that they would be solving my own murder if I kept up the pace and wear on my family.

Wait? You went into federal employment after medical school? That was on my pre-medical school tour. FBI (OMG, no way), CIA (more functional adults, but not really my place in the world), OSI / NCIS (not really much of a fit). So I went to medical school.
 
I certainly was NOT mocking patriotism. I really get the idea that the job burns you down. Thank you for you service! I'm, honestly, happy that you found something else. I haven't. Apparently, for me, clinical medicine just isn't for me.

If you knew me, you would know that I am quite a patriot, although not nearly as accomplished than about anyone else. Just a screwball, honest American.

I never got the impression that anyone’s patriotism was being questioned. No problems from my end.

My experience is that EPs are rather diverse and a bit eccentric when it come to expressing their altruism. On one end of the spectrum, you have the folks who want to solve the world’s problems through Doctors Without Borders. On the other end, there are those who just want a high-powered rifle and an elevated position.

I’m definitely more toward the latter. ;)
 
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Wait? You went into federal employment after medical school?

No, I enlisted out of high school and continued working for the government in one form or another until I was in my early forties. Med school and residency were just brief blips on the radar because I grew tired of working hard for a living.
 
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Very much appreciate my ED colleagues. Y'all appear to have an impossible job where you are moving at breakneck speeds trying to please everyone and not kill anyone. Seems both very high stress due to the acute patients and prone to burnout given some of the other nonsense. Sad to hear that things have been getting ****ty from a compensation/work standpoint.
 
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I am 1 year out and already crispified by the BS. Been debating which exit(s) to take.

Glad I'm not the only one.

I feel i made a mistake by choosing EM. Should have listened to my mom and become a cardiologist -_-

Maybe i just need to work at a 8-13k volume ER, take the pay cut, have a great relaxing life and just build my side empire from the ER income.
 
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Glad I'm not the only one.

I feel i made a mistake by choosing EM. Should have listened to my mom and become a cardiologist -_-

Maybe i just need to work at a 8-13k volume ER, take the pay cut, have a great relaxing life and just build my side empire from the ER income.
The problem is that, in the 8-13k volume, your nursing staff is anywhere from sucks to borderline/real malpractice. Good nurses get f' out of Dodge as soon as they can. Trust me - TRUST ME - it is NOT relaxing.
 
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The problem is that, in the 8-13k volume, your nursing staff is anywhere from sucks to borderline/real malpractice. Good nurses get f' out of Dodge as soon as they can. Trust me - TRUST ME - it is NOT relaxing.

My favorite place ever was when i used to moonlight at a place with 3.5k volume. Roughly 10 patients a day. $130/hr for a 24 hour shift. I usually slept 8 hours there, maybe got woken up once over night. I had days there where i didn't even do blood work on any patient. In my 5-6 shifts at that place, i had admitted 2 people in total. It felt like free money working there.

I've actually worked at two 10k volume places. 180/hr. The nursing staff at either place isn't terrible. They don't get stretched thin like my 20k volume full time gig that often struggles when 20-30 people show up in 3-4 hours.

The bursts of sudden high volume in my single coverage place is really what gets me personally. I have worked two shifts this month after taking time off to take care of my baby. My first shift back i had 17 patients in 4 hours. One of the first days of volume going back to normal but without the normal staffing as there was no MLP like there usually is, maybe going to the ER is how people celebrate memorial day weekend.

I honestly prefer all my moonlighting gigs over my full time place due to lower volume, but i get paid so much more -_-
 
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My favorite place ever was when i used to moonlight at a place with 3.5k volume. Roughly 10 patients a day. $130/hr for a 24 hour shift. I usually slept 8 hours there, maybe got woken up once over night. I had days there where i didn't even do blood work on any patient. In my 5-6 shifts at that place, i had admitted 2 people in total. It felt like free money working there.

I've actually worked at two 10k volume places. 180/hr. The nursing staff at either place isn't terrible. They don't get stretched thin like my 20k volume full time gig that often struggles when 20-30 people show up in 3-4 hours.

The bursts of sudden high volume in my single coverage place is really what gets me personally. I have worked two shifts this month after taking time off to take care of my baby. My first shift back i had 17 patients in 4 hours. One of the first days of volume going back to normal but without the normal staffing as there was no MLP like there usually is, maybe going to the ER is how people celebrate memorial day weekend.

I honestly prefer all my moonlighting gigs over my full time place due to lower volume, but i get paid so much more -_-
Looks like you found good ones. I'm not talking about nurses stretched thin. I mean, those that can't get a job anywhere else. Because they are garbage.
 
My biggest problem with these low volume rural places is that you could go a whole month sometimes without seeing any critical patients.

Definitely not a bad job for someone at the end of their career looking for a slower pace but for someone just starting their career its absolutely horrible for gaining experience and developing your clinical practice versus working in a busy trauma canter with critical patients every shift.
 
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The problem is that, in the 8-13k volume, your nursing staff is anywhere from sucks to borderline/real malpractice. Good nurses get f' out of Dodge as soon as they can. Trust me - TRUST ME - it is NOT relaxing.

I'm four years out, pretty crispy. Still love medicine, hate pretty much everything else about the job. Not quite sure if I'm a mercenary or a prostitute, I think both is more accurate.

Those low volume places all have "great nurses" that aren't so great. I'm always amazed how much nursing blows. Some are stellar beyond belief, but most seem to be a living embodiment of the Peter principal. They can't / don't take accurate vitals, have little curiosity for the background of common things, and are a tribe not to be messed with. Communications are pretty much No-BAR. No Background, no Assessment, no Response. Just repetitive half baked interruptions. I haven't yet met a nurse who knows where SBAR comes from ("nursing!" nope, the US Nuclear Submarines). I don't enjoy having 1/3rd of my patients be "difficult IVs"...
 
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The problem is that, in the 8-13k volume, your nursing staff is anywhere from sucks to borderline/real malpractice. Good nurses get f' out of Dodge as soon as they can. Trust me - TRUST ME - it is NOT relaxing.
Agreed. I worked at a place that sees just under 13k/yr. Bursts of patients never really broke 3 per hr. generally you're seeing 1 and change an hour. Overnight shifts your getting several hours of sleep..... but man those nurses. Bunch of ****ing assassins.

Towards the end of my time there I walk into a room and see the patient is satting in the 70s. Ask the nurse to get in there and point out his sat. She responds to the effect of "yeah, he's been like that, but he's just drunk."

I explain that I don't care whether he's drunk or sober, he's actively trying to die and needs to be intubated.

Things like this were not an uncommon occurrence.
 
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Does anyone have any thoughts on how robust these supply projections are? As a student who was pretty intent on applying into emergency medicine this year (until stumbling onto this thread....) this is pretty concerning. I've always loved being in the ED, but if the job market is really this screwed (and maybe even getting worse?) it really makes me second guess things...
 
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