d.o's not allowed to rotate at Rush anymore...

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Toohotinvegas33 said:
Im not sure why this is a big deal, I haven't seen any matchlist where alot of DO's went to rush anyway. There is a bunch of good univeristy programs in Chitown that takes alot of DO's, Loyola, UIC, Northwestern, U of Chicago. This new policy might be a good thing, now you wont waste your time doing sub-I's at a place that wouldnt match you anyway.
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This is exactly why I posted "The sky is not falling".

I was not impressed as a patient there either. If the other schools start taking suit as Rush is doing, then I might get a little nervous, especially since I will be a med student in Illinois next year.
 
megboo said:
This is exactly why I posted "The sky is not falling".

I was not impressed as a patient there either. If the other schools start taking suit as Rush is doing, then I might get a little nervous, especially since I will be a med student in Illinois next year.
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That is why it is important to find out the true reason...if it's just because Rush is getting too many students and they are trying to limit that, then that is one thing...but if it's because of other more general reasons regarding DO's, then other allopathic schools can and will most likely follow suit, as they are all accredited by the LCME....(ie. Rush has an issue with AOA standards or DO school curriculums...etc). I wonder how DO Attendings and DO residents at Rush feel about this....maybe someone knows a DO rush resident here on SDN...
 
Pansit said:
That is why it is important to find out the true reason...if it's just because Rush is getting too many students and they are trying to limit that, then that is one thing...but if it's because of other more general reasons regarding DO's, then other allopathic schools can and will most likely follow suit, as they are all accredited by the LCME....(ie. Rush has an issue with AOA standards or DO school curriculums...etc). I wonder how DO Attendings and DO residents at Rush feel about this....maybe someone knows a DO rush resident here on SDN...
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The thing to do, probably, is for someone at one of the DO schools in the area to talk with one of their Deans, or whoever sets up or is in charge of clinical training/rotations and bring it to their attention and then have them contact the hospital to see what exactly is going on.

I personally am not going to be rotating there, and it could just be due to them trying to limit the number of students they have rotating through.... but I don think it's important on some level to find out what's going on and for someone in an authority position (school dean, AOA exec., etc...) to get involved and do some lobbying on our behalf. From what I've seen and heard so far, it seems as though physicians in general are not the best when it comes to lobbying for themselves or their profession in general, not just D.Os. So the sky may no be falling, but doesn't mean we should just sit back and ignore it.
 
MaximusD said:
Are you a lawyer? Oh that's right you're a premed. Let's let the courts/lawyers decide legality and you can go back to ochem and mechanics...
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I don't see the necessity to pull this crap.....Show the guy some respect....As I can see from his avatar, he is a veteran of the Armed Forces and deserves respect. I didn't think his post was inappropriate.
 
USArmyDoc said:
I don't see the necessity to pull this crap.....Show the guy some respect....As I can see from his avatar, he is a veteran of the Armed Forces and deserves respect. I didn't think his post was inappropriate.
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The argument is already over. People who insist on re-opening it will end up in time-out.
 
USArmyDoc said:
I don't see the necessity to pull this crap.....Show the guy some respect....As I can see from his avatar, he is a veteran of the Armed Forces and deserves respect. I didn't think his post was inappropriate.
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I never insulted him personally, I just didn't think he had any real ability to comment on the matter, and I sure do not believe that a background of military service qualifies him, although you are right it is cause for respect.

The fact of the matter is that if DO students in the midwest feel disenfranchised and want to take legal action, I do not want them to be discouraged from doing so. His post is discouraging to those individuals, and while I regret my tone, I do not regret my message.

Sorry scpod, I think that this response was relevant. Maybe I hadn't made it clear why I had disagreed so vehemently... this was an attempt to do that.
 
Looks like Max and Gasapple are gunna get a timeout. hehehe :meanie:
 
I was merely advising Old Grunt with regard to a👎 SDN "persona" generally associated with discourtesy.

Carry on, soldier! 😀
 
TexasTriathlete said:
I sent flowers and then called. They told me "It's not you, it's me"
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You should have stood outside their window in a trench coat with a boombox above your head playing a song to bring the two back together ... :laugh:
 
Pansit said:
Can someone verify the reason that this policy was enacted...is it permanent? Is it just for this year? This is very dissappointing...I thought the days of hospitals limiting opportunities for DO's were over...its one thing to have never let a DO rotate and keeping that policy, but its completely different to having DO's rotates for years and then changing it...this is very dissapointing and will effect my decisions with MD vs. DO...who know if this will start a trend...who's next...UIC, Loyola, Uof C...cant take that risk....and how can they be an affiliate of Midwestern University but then not allow them to rotate there...this is not very good...could this be backlash from the "for-profit" school opening, as they strongly placed "LCME allopathic medical schools" on that policy statement...this is very interesting...
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Sigh, if Rush can do something to limit opportunities for DOs then others can do the samething to ruin the the opportunities for DOs completely. This is not a good sign.
 
I've looked into it and it seems to be because of a space problem more than anything else. they have been pretty vague for their reasons, but the general idea i got from speaking with Rush is that it was a space-based problem. I havent talked to the Dean yet. I really dont think this is indicative of any forthcoming problems for D.O students anymore, it's not THAT big of a deal, it just sucks for people who DID want to rotate at Rush. In the end, heck, if northwestern , dartmouth, uic, loyola, and u of c will let me rotate, and Rush wont, they can bite me anyways.
 
Old Grunt said:
In your mind only. I said "I don't think.....", so I hardly claimed any level of expertise. Admittedly, I am not a lawyer, and I always appreciate anyone who is more knowledgable correcting me when I am wrong when they can do so in a mature manner.
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Grunty, at ease.

I enjoy reading your posts and naturally I agree with all of them. Don't get sucked into the trap of pointless debate. It is a waste of time. Besides MaxD is an okay dude, he just gets fired up.

Not everyone here is 11b w/ a rgr. tab like us. No reason to call in "puff".......yet.
 
the only thing is id be concerned is if a trend began of other allopathic teaching hospitals began to be "over crowded" ......Rush is not an over crowded hospital at all, i mean its busy and such, but could definitely accommodate some 50 more osteopathic students. its a shame as well because Rush's orthopedics department is top notch and students like myself wont have the privilege and benefit of rotating there

basta*ds...
 
travoltage said:
the only thing is id be concerned is if a trend began of other allopathic teaching hospitals began to be "over crowded" ......Rush is not an over crowded hospital at all, i mean its busy and such, but could definitely accommodate some 50 more osteopathic students. its a shame as well because Rush's orthopedics department is top notch and students like myself wont have the privilege and benefit of rotating there

basta*ds...
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Then if I were you, I'd start pushing to open DO residency spots to MD grads. I don't see why MD students/graduates should oppose excluding DO's from rotating when MD's are excluded from entire residency programs. However, if equitable policies on rotating/matching existed on both sides, we wouldn't have problems like this. I'm not saying this is a retaliation for excluding MD's from the DO match, but as I said, things like that make it hard for me to get behind you on this one.
 
travoltage said:
the only thing is id be concerned is if a trend began of other allopathic teaching hospitals began to be "over crowded" ......Rush is not an over crowded hospital at all, i mean its busy and such, but could definitely accommodate some 50 more osteopathic students. its a shame as well because Rush's orthopedics department is top notch and students like myself wont have the privilege and benefit of rotating there

basta*ds...
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If you dont like it then tell your DO admins to build more osteo hospitals.

If you are going to play in our sandbox, we get first dibs. There is no "right" to training at outside hospitals.

Everybody knows the best/biggest hospitals are allopathic. You should have thought about that before you went the DO route.

You guys wouldnt have this problem if all the DO schools were incorporated into large academic medical centers. All these ****ty programs that force their students to fend for themselves at outside clinical rotations should be shut down.

No new medical schools (allo or osteo) should be built where they cant guarantee all 4 years of training on-site or at the very least have contractual relationships with hospitals in the same city.
 
MacGyver said:
If you dont like it then tell your DO admins to build more osteo hospitals.

If you are going to play in our sandbox, we get first dibs. There is no "right" to training at outside hospitals.

Everybody knows the best/biggest hospitals are allopathic. You should have thought about that before you went the DO route.

You guys wouldnt have this problem if all the DO schools were incorporated into large academic medical centers. All these ****ty programs that force their students to fend for themselves at outside clinical rotations should be shut down.

No new medical schools (allo or osteo) should be built where they cant guarantee all 4 years of training on-site or at the very least have contractual relationships with hospitals in the same city.
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i understand your guys viewpoints, i think DO should open their residencies for allopathic students, and yes, they should start incorporating larger academic medical facilities, that is something that needs to be addressed...both issues...i fully agree
 
MacGyver said:
If you dont like it then tell your DO admins to build more osteo hospitals.

If you are going to play in our sandbox, we get first dibs. There is no "right" to training at outside hospitals.

Everybody knows the best/biggest hospitals are allopathic. You should have thought about that before you went the DO route.

You guys wouldnt have this problem if all the DO schools were incorporated into large academic medical centers. All these ****ty programs that force their students to fend for themselves at outside clinical rotations should be shut down.

No new medical schools (allo or osteo) should be built where they cant guarantee all 4 years of training on-site or at the very least have contractual relationships with hospitals in the same city.
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Jesus Christ ....
 
MacGyver said:
If you dont like it then tell your DO admins to build more osteo hospitals.

If you are going to play in our sandbox, we get first dibs. There is no "right" to training at outside hospitals.

Everybody knows the best/biggest hospitals are allopathic. You should have thought about that before you went the DO route.

You guys wouldnt have this problem if all the DO schools were incorporated into large academic medical centers. All these ****ty programs that force their students to fend for themselves at outside clinical rotations should be shut down.

No new medical schools (allo or osteo) should be built where they cant guarantee all 4 years of training on-site or at the very least have contractual relationships with hospitals in the same city.
Click to expand...


Right, I'll get my people on it right away. No wait I won't I'm a MS-1. Who do you really think you're talking to on these forums? For the most part, we're MS-<n> students and pre-meds. Get back to me in 20 yrs, and I'll take up the issue when I rule the AOA, but for now, please think before you post dumb comments like these.

For the record, I agree, DO residencies should open up to MDs as Im sure the overall quality of DO programs will rise. Everyone wins.
 
I am an MS1 at CCOM. I spoke with our dean today and she said to tell you all. CCOM students are going to be rotating at Rush. They were negotiating a new contract and it has been settled and we will rotate there. I do not think it is for all DO students, but CCOM is for sure allowed to rotate at Rush.

Marcia
 
mdille2 said:
I am an MS1 at CCOM. I spoke with our dean today and she said to tell you all. CCOM students are going to be rotating at Rush. They were negotiating a new contract and it has been settled and we will rotate there. I do not think it is for all DO students, but CCOM is for sure allowed to rotate at Rush.

Marcia
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I think this shows that it really could be due to overcrowding ... not anti-DO feelings.
 
mdille2 said:
I am an MS1 at CCOM. I spoke with our dean today and she said to tell you all. CCOM students are going to be rotating at Rush. They were negotiating a new contract and it has been settled and we will rotate there. I do not think it is for all DO students, but CCOM is for sure allowed to rotate at Rush.

Marcia
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again, thanks for clarifying 🙂
 
Even if this situation is due to overcrowding, there are more fair and equitable ways to limit visiting students than doing so by excluding osteopathic students.
 
Northerner said:
Then if I were you, I'd start pushing to open DO residency spots to MD grads. I don't see why MD students/graduates should oppose excluding DO's from rotating when MD's are excluded from entire residency programs. However, if equitable policies on rotating/matching existed on both sides, we wouldn't have problems like this. I'm not saying this is a retaliation for excluding MD's from the DO match, but as I said, things like that make it hard for me to get behind you on this one.
Click to expand...

How do you get past our additional training... OMM is not required for MD residencies, but it is required for DO residencies (in theory..). The DO-powers-that-be would ahve to openly admit that we don't use OMM-- that we're just tought it to waste med students' time. That won't be happening anytime soon... nor should it.

Do you propose an OMM equivalency course of some sort?
 
Doesn't Harvard have an elective like OMM?
 
MaximusD said:
How do you get past our additional training... OMM is not required for MD residencies, but it is required for DO residencies (in theory..). The DO-powers-that-be would ahve to openly admit that we don't use OMM-- that we're just tought it to waste med students' time. That won't be happening anytime soon... nor should it.

Do you propose an OMM equivalency course of some sort?
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Is OMM a key component of each DO residency? I would imagine with the relatively small number of DO's actually practicing OMM that this policy, if it exists, is likely to change within the next 15-20 years.
 
MaximusD said:
How do you get past our additional training... OMM is not required for MD residencies, but it is required for DO residencies (in theory..). The DO-powers-that-be would ahve to openly admit that we don't use OMM-- that we're just tought it to waste med students' time. That won't be happening anytime soon... nor should it.

Do you propose an OMM equivalency course of some sort?
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Just so you know, you don't have additional training, you have different training. And I get past your different training the same way you get past ours....they're equivalent.

Honestly, MD students aren't exactly clamoring to get access to DO residencies (that even DO students don't appear to particularly want), so don't flatter yourself. It's the principle.
 
Northerner said:
Just so you know, you don't have additional training, you have different training. And I get past your different training the same way you get past ours....they're equivalent.
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I don't think it is to hard to argue that DO's have additional training over their MD counter parts. I have two friends in MD schools who wish they were taught OMM so they could offer their patients that option when they practice. Could you name one thing that an allopathic medical student is taught that an osteopathic medical student isn't taught? Or is this just pre-meds arguing over what they have heard from others? While the training between DO/MDs might be equivalent to treat patients (prescribe meds, perform surgery..etc.) there are differences in the training.
 
HarveyCushing said:
I don't think it is to hard to argue that DO's have additional training over their MD counter parts. I have two friends in MD schools who wish they were taught OMM so that they would have that to offer their patients.
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No offense, but bull****. Just like the vast majority of DO's never use OMM in practice, MD's wouldn't either. They were being polite.

HarveyCushing said:
Could you name one thing that an allopathic medical student is taught that an osteopathic medical student isn't taught?
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Enough to do better on the USMLE.

HarveyCushing said:
Or is this just pre-meds arguing over what they have heard from others? While the training between DO/MDs might be equivalent to treat patients (prescribe meds, perform surgery..etc.) there are differences in the training.
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Agreed - there are differences in training. They are, however, equivalent. Saying DO's have additional training over MDs is a slap in the face, and a little silly. Of course MD graduates would be able to learn OMM if they were interested, or if it were a requirement for DO residency.
 
on a somewhat related note... northwestern started to charge DO students $1k to go there for rotations a while ago.

does anyone know if other programs have a similar policy?
 
Northerner said:
No offense, but bull****. Just like the vast majority of DO's never use OMM in practice, MD's wouldn't either. They were being polite.
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The point of your original post wasn't about how medicine was practiced, but rather how medical students are trained. The fact that DO students do received training in OMM is an example of how DOs receive additional training. How a DO physician decides to use that additional training is totally up to their discretion. While a medical student might learn how to suture, put in an IV, make the first incision, that doesn't force them to practice those aspects of medicine if they go into radiology or PM&R. Not using that training doesn't make them any less of a physician. That is basically what you are saying with your argument. Obviously not every DO student will use OMM, however there are still DOs that use it and this might shock you.... even MDs use OMM!! 😱
 
HarveyCushing said:
The point of your original post wasn't about how medicine was practiced, but rather how medical students are trained. The fact that DO students do received training in OMM is an example of how DOs receive additional training. How a DO physician decided to use that additional training is totally up to their discretion. While a medical student might learn how to suture, put in an IV, make the first incision, that doesn't force them to practice those aspects of medicine if they go into radiology or PM&R. That is basically what you are saying with your argument. Obviously not every DO student will use OMM, however there are still DOs that use it and this might shock you.... even MDs use OMM!! 😱
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Good for them. I'm sure the 0.01% of MD's who practice OMM are very happy with their decision to learn the treatment modality. My point was that just because you are trained in an esoteric treatment modality an overwhelming majority of physicians never use, that doesn't give you grounds to try to one-up an MD's training by claiming you receive "more training than an MD". You don't. I get sick of this "DO = MD + more" horse****.

My point is simple: MD=DO. I think that's pretty fair.
 
Northerner said:
Enough to do better on the USMLE.
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Just full of the cheap shots today huh? While I don't have to explain to you that many DO students rock the USMLE, I think you should realize that I asked you to name clinical aspects/material that an MD is taught that a DO is not. The fact that you took the low road I am assuming that you have given up and conceded defeat on this point.
 
Northerner said:
Just so you know, you don't have additional training, you have different training. And I get past your different training the same way you get past ours....they're equivalent.

Honestly, MD students aren't exactly clamoring to get access to DO residencies (that even DO students don't appear to particularly want), so don't flatter yourself. It's the principle.
Click to expand...

Harsh, harsh, harsh ....

I know I have had small board conversations with you on the boards before Northerner, and if I recall correctly ... your biggest gripe with DOs is that, in certain cases, they claim to be superior to MDs due to OMM training. I understand your frusturation with this, but - if this is your point- I don't see why you go about it in this manner. I don't see how the the training ... minus OMM ... is different?? Clearly if DOs can apply for MD residencies, the training must have an extreme degree of similiarity. Dentists and doctors have different training ... which is why a DDS doesn't practice emergency medicine etc. The OMM is additional training.

However (with respect to your frusturation), I do not think that OMM makes DOs superior to MDs ... I think it provides an additional tool, which most DOs don't choose to use (for whatever reason). Also, I really don't know if MDs would apply for DO residencies if they had the option. I assume that some of the more desired residencies (though there are less under the AOA) would be applied to ... but who knows???

I think that you get bugged when DOs claim to be superior because of OMM ... in the same way that MDs claim to be superior because of slightly higher MCAT/GPA averages. I think we should use this thread to focus on the Rush situation, not let it go down in flames as an MD vs DO type deal.
 
I knew this was gonna turn into an MD vs DO thread, but atleast it took 140+ post to get there. Good job guys 👍
 
Northerner said:
Good for them. I'm sure the 0.01% of MD's who practice OMM are very happy with their decision to learn the treatment modality. My point was that just because you are trained in an esoteric treatment modality an overwhelming majority of physicians never use, that doesn't give you grounds to try to one-up an MD's training by claiming you receive "more training than an MD". You don't. I get sick of this "DO = MD + more" horse****.

My point is simple: MD=DO. I think that's pretty fair.
Click to expand...

You posted this while I was typing my last response ... I agree 100%, and I hope everyone else does as well!!
 
Northerner said:
that doesn't give you grounds to try to one-up an MD's training by claiming you receive "more training than an MD". You don't. I get sick of this "DO = MD + more" horse****.

My point is simple: MD=DO. I think that's pretty fair.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you. I don't think DOs> MDs at all, however I will defend the fact that we do receive extra training than our MD counterparts. I think the least you should acknowledge is that we spend an extra 3-4hrs a week in training that MDs do not receive. If you and someone else want to argue about who is better between MDs and DOs that is fine with me, but I am happy with the notion that MDs and DOs are both physicians. Isn't that the point of the whole story at the end of the day?
 
HarveyCushing said:
I completely agree with you. I don't think DOs> MDs at all, however I will defend the fact that we do receive extra training than our MD counterparts. I think the least you should acknowledge is that we spend an extra 3-4hrs a week in training that MDs do not receive. If you and someone else want to argue about who is better between MDs and DOs that is fine with me, but I am happy with the notion that MDs and DOs are both physicians. Isn't that the point of the whole story at the end of the day?
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Oh, but that would be too easy now, wouldn't it!
 
spicedmanna said:
Sounds good to me. 🙂
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Again, that would be too easy now, wouldn't it!!! :laugh:

I certainly hope what MDille had to add is indeed true. I just want to get the facts straight before we go any further with the Chicken-Little behaviors. I was under the impression that the AMA wants to move forward with relations with the AOA, and if this is so, wouldn't that make it less likely this Rush situation was about discrimination and more about space?

Food for thought. Discuss.
 
HarveyCushing said:
I think the least you should acknowledge is that we spend an extra 3-4hrs a week in training that MDs do not receive.
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Acknowledged. And I'm saying that 3-4 hours a week does not amount to claim "extra training" over an MD.

HarveyCushing said:
If you and someone else want to argue about who is better between MDs and DOs that is fine with me, but I am happy with the notion that MDs and DOs are both physicians. Isn't that the point of the whole story at the end of the day?
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Sort of, I was never arguing who is better between MDs and DOs, you'll notice I've been the one saying MD=DO.

JaggerPlate said:
I think we should use this thread to focus on the Rush situation, not let it go down in flames as an MD vs DO type deal.
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Welllllllll.....okay.
 
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