Dancing Videos and "Surgery" centers in Georgia

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And spare me the “white people do stupid thing too” side... I know they do. I’m sure there’s some honky dancing in the OR to Ted Nugent somewhere
 
acidbase1 said:
It wasn’t brought up bc a person of color and “screwed up”. It was brought up bc of the music and how African Americans express themselves from time to time. (Of which I have absolutely no problem with). I think that was one of the glaring problems in this particular circumstance.

Call me racist but I haven’t seen many of my attendings rocking out to Tpain
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By implying that tpain videos over patients are somehow less appropriate than taylor swift, yes....you are drifting into racist land with that statement if you meant it how I read it
 
No one should be rocking out to Tpain, Yeezy, Taylor Swift, Drake or any other artist in the OR!

As in yes, play that music, sing along, but full on busting some moves while scrubbed in? No go. No matter what race!

Save that **** for Friday and Saturday nights.

@acidbase1, while what you are saying may be true about seeing minorities protected, I can pretty much guarantee that they for the most part get the harsher punishment simply because of their minority status when they screw up.

There have been studies shown on this with little kids. Unconscious bias exists and is acted upon.
I learned those lessons in residency. Wake up call.

It’s a lot easier to be a sloppy Caucasian doc than to be a sloppy minority doc. That applies to all fields in life when you live in such a non homogeneous environment like the US.
 
chocomorsel said:
It’s a lot easier to be a sloppy Caucasian doc than to be a sloppy minority doc. That applies to all fields in life when you live in such a non homogeneous environment like the US.
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It doesn’t work that way in med school admissions
 
sb247 said:
It doesn’t work that way in med school admissions
Click to expand...

Maybe so, but there are a lot of factors that can hinder a person from reaching their full potential before medical school. Not gonna go into that on this thread. Yes, affirmative action exists and is used across the US to try and even the playing field.

That Affirmative Action that got someone in the door ends on day 1 of medical school where everyone is on the level playing field. If you can’t hack it, then you are out. Very objective measures are used to advance students during that time.

Then you get into the clinical years and residency where a lot of subjectivity comes into play and that’s where minorities can start having trouble. People you never thought could have issues and have never had academic and professional trouble before start having issues. It happens and is real. And I believe that a lot of that has to do with their race and sex.

But you know we can’t talk about it openly because I am sure plenty of people out there think we are making it up and deserve everything we get because racism, sexism, and unconscious bias doesn’t exist.

I don’t know if there are any studies showing unfair treatment of minorities in the adult world of business and medicine, but just watching the news alone lately can show you that we aren’t welcome everywhere no matter how much we want to believe otherwise.
 
chocomorsel said:
Maybe so, but there are a lot of factors that can hinder a person from reaching their full potential before medical school. Not gonna go into that on this thread. Yes, affirmative action exists and is used across the US to try and even the playing field.

That Affirmative Action that got someone in the door ends on day 1 of medical school where everyone is on the level playing field. If you can’t hack it, then you are out. Very objective measures are used to advance students during that time.

Then you get into the clinical years and residency where a lot of subjectivity comes into play and that’s where minorities can start having trouble. People you never thought could have issues and have never had academic and professional trouble before start having issues. It happens and is real. And I believe that a lot of that has to do with their race and sex.

But you know we can’t talk about it openly because I am sure plenty of people out there think we are making it up and deserve everything we get because racism, sexism, and unconscious bias doesn’t exist.

I don’t know if there are any studies showing unfair treatment of minorities in the adult world of business and medicine, but just watching the news alone lately can show you that we aren’t welcome everywhere no matter how much we want to believe otherwise.
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Preferentially recruited to residency as well.....
Tons of scholarships that white people can’t apply to....

There certainly are racists out there being jerks to people. 100 percent agree that it happens but all the official policy stuff is definitely in favor of minority applicants
 
sb247 said:
By implying that tpain videos over patients are somehow less appropriate than taylor swift, yes....you are drifting into racist land with that statement if you meant it how I read it
Click to expand...

Omg... lots of implying there. Did not mean that at all
 
chocomorsel said:
No one should be rocking out to Tpain, Yeezy, Taylor Swift, Drake or any other artist in the OR!

As in yes, play that music, sing along, but full on busting some moves while scrubbed in? No go.
Click to expand...

My point exactly.
 
sb247 said:
Preferentially recruited to residency as well.....
Tons of scholarships that white people can’t apply to....

There certainly are racists out there being jerks to people. 100 percent agree that it happens but all the official policy stuff is definitely in favor of minority applicants
Click to expand...

Thank you. Minorities had a batter chance of getting in than me. Furthermore, I was a minority in Med school.
 
sb247 said:
Preferentially recruited to residency as well.....
Tons of scholarships that white people can’t apply to....

There certainly are racists out there being jerks to people. 100 percent agree that it happens but all the official policy stuff is definitely in favor of minority applicants
Click to expand...

Well, we clearly live in different worlds. What I remember is there were Step 1 cutoffs for many residencies when I applied. I don't know if they all do it, but I am sure a majority of them do. So your preferentially recruited to residency as well statement is weird as hell to me, and I am sure to others on here as well.

However, let's agree to disagree on this one.
 
sb247 said:
all the official policy stuff is definitely in favor of minority applicants
Click to expand...

Not if you grew up in a household in a urban city with an annual household income of $20k and your minority race is Asian. I'm not a minority no matter how much hardship I've been through and how little of my potential that I've achieved.
 
dchz said:
Not if you grew up in a household in a urban city with an annual household income of $20k and your minority race is Asian. I'm not a minority no matter how much hardship I've been through and how little of my potential that I've achieved.
Click to expand...
Sorry for not being more specific....you are right that asians get officially screwed by racism in medicine
 
chocomorsel said:
Well, we clearly live in different worlds. What I remember is there were Step 1 cutoffs for many residencies when I applied. I don't know if they all do it, but I am sure a majority of them do. So your preferentially recruited to residency as well statement is weird as hell to me, and I am sure to others on here as well.

However, let's agree to disagree on this one.
Click to expand...
It might have been awhile since you went through the match, maybe times change
 
chocomorsel said:
Well there are medical students on this board who are constantly asking about cutoff scores for Step 1 for different residency programs, so I know that those still exist.
Click to expand...
You are correct that cutoffs do exist, I’m not disagreeing with you on that. We agree
 
The thing is there is an actual, honest conversation that could be had about "representation" and why medical schools, law schools, etc, recruit "underrepresented" minorities into these fields. That underrepresentation has many factors such as school performance, economics, georgraphy and so on. Why is representation needed? Well, because there are factors within all communities that only someone from that community can relate to. Small example, when I graduated residency, I saw a job posting where in the description it literally said "must speak Korean". Of course I couldn't apply but that's probably because the majority of their patients are Korean. That's a small example of why representation is important. Additionally, as professionals, we tend to gravitate to the communities we represent which leads to a underrepresentation of fields in some communities. Does this always happen? No. I'm one of a few black doctors where I work in predominantly white community. Would I personally like to work in a black community? Yes, but in anesthesia it's easier said than done.

Now, as Chocomorsel also said, I bit my tongue on the race issue at the beginning on this thread too but for a reason probably no one thought about. When I saw the video not only did I think she was an "embarrassment for physicians" but for me, she was an embarrassment for black physicians. I know people don't like to hear "we have it hard enough" when their vision is that "we're given everything" (which relates to where this thread has derailed) but from a black perspective, it is hard being a minority in a field dominated by mostly white people and we do feel that we constantly have to prove we belong and when someone is out there screwing up and embarrassing themselves, in our minds, they're embarrassing all of us. (Notice key words, I used. I'm not stating this as fact but I would argue many black folks feel this way)
 
chocomorsel said:
Well then if you have two candidates with the minimum required scores and one(minority) gets picked over the other(white), why would that be considered preferential?
Click to expand...
If based on their race one candidate had access to special mentoring programs expressly denied to others or the programs specifically took time to state how dedicated they were to recruiting applicants of particular races/genders that would be preferential

Meeting a minimum doesn’t at all mean that it’s impossible for there to be discrimination past that point
 
Additionally, my med school did have a program for minorities but I'll tell you this, the other half of that classroom (in the program) were white students from Appalachia. Again, it's about representation.
 
So there are no mentoring programs for White people at said program? Ok, maybe. This program is likely trying to recruit and retain minority physicians because they think there is a lack of mentorship available for said population. They want to make sure that these physicians do well in said programs. As well as their non minority counterparts, because often times, these physicians feel out of place.

There have always been available mentors/mentorship programs of the majority race available everywhere. I mean you don't have to look very hard. So if a program is trying to make it a little more welcoming and paying attention to their minorities for a change, is that wrong? It just shows me that they want more inclusivity. Not exclusivity.

Come on.
 
chocomorsel said:
So there are no mentoring programs for White people at said program? Ok, maybe. This program is likely trying to recruit and retain minority physicians because they think there is a lack of mentorship available for said population. They want to make sure that these physicians do well in said programs. As well as their non minority counterparts, because often times, these physicians feel out of place.

There have always been available mentors/mentorship programs of the majority race available everywhere. I mean you don't have to look very hard. So if a program is trying to make it a little more welcoming and paying attention to their minorities for a change, is that wrong? It just shows me that they want more inclusivity. Not exclusivity.

Come on.
Click to expand...
Introducing a program that specifically excludes someone from eligibility based on race or gender is not inclusion
 
sb247 said:
Introducing a program that specifically excludes someone from eligibility based on race or gender is not inclusion
Click to expand...

Here's a description of eligibility from the AAMC website for the Med-MAR program......

Who Is Eligible to Participate?
You are eligible if (a) you are a U.S. citizen, U.S. National, a lawful permanent resident (LPR) of the United States (“Green Card” holder), or have been granted refugee/asylum or Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) status by the U.S. government, and (b) you are economically disadvantaged or of low socio-economic status (SES), or you self-identify as a member of a racial or ethnic group historically underrepresented in medicine--African-American/Black, Hispanic/Latino, American Indian/Alaska Native or Native Hawaiian/Pacific Islander.

Translation: poor white kids
 
Twiggidy said:
Here's a description of eligibility from the AAMC website for the Med-MAR program......

Who Is Eligible to Participate?
You are eligible if (a) you are a U.S. citizen, U.S. National, a lawful permanent resident (LPR) of the United States (“Green Card” holder), or have been granted refugee/asylum or Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) status by the U.S. government, and (b) you are economically disadvantaged or of low socio-economic status (SES), or you self-identify as a member of a racial or ethnic group historically underrepresented in medicine--African-American/Black, Hispanic/Latino, American Indian/Alaska Native or Native Hawaiian/Pacific Islander.

Translation: poor white kids
Click to expand...

Yes, but you could also be a rich privileged black kid with a high dollar education and still be eligible.

I would prefer to see SES be the only criteria.
 
SaltyDog said:
Yes, but you could also be a rich privileged black kid with a high dollar education and still be eligible.

I would prefer to see SES be the only criteria.
Click to expand...

True. Which now brings us to the discussion of is a rich black kid on a level playing field as a rich white kid? Some would say yes others (probably mostly black) would say now. I think this where that NYTimes article posted not long ago comes into play.
 
SaltyDog said:
Yes, but you could also be a rich privileged black kid with a high dollar education and still be eligible.

I would prefer to see SES be the only criteria.
Click to expand...

But again, I think it's more about representation. Rich or poor, minorities (whether racial or SES) communities need doctors that relate to them and their issues.
 
Twiggidy said:
But again, I think it's more about representation. Rich or poor, minorities (whether racial or SES) communities need doctors that relate to them and their issues.
Click to expand...
I disagree there. A wealthy black doctor would have still been just as good a doctor for me as a white guy from modest origins
 
sb247 said:
I disagree there. A wealthy black doctor would have still been just as good a doctor for me as a white guy from modest origins
Click to expand...

That's you and great that you think that way. The reality is we are comfortable around people who look like us. Your relationship with that doctor will be much different then said black doctor and a black patient. Even in anesthesia, when my rare black patients see me walk in a room the initial reaction is vastly different then when I walk into a white patient's room. It's just the way it is. A black woman from an urban area would probably want a black woman physician > woman physician > "gimme any physician".
 
Last edited:
Practicing in the south black patients love to see black doctors. To educate some of you. The black community as a whole does not trust many of the white community due to the history. Look up ths tuskegee experiments. This stuff still gets circulated in the black community. Without black representation many blacks just would not see doctors and the presentation would be end stage problems. Imagine if the Germans won the war after murdering and disinfranchising the jewish community. Would many of them trust German doctors? What happened at Tuskegee was just as bad as Joseph Mengal.
 
Twiggidy said:
That's you and great that you think that way. The reality is we are comfortable around people who look like us. Your relationship with that doctor will be much different the said black doctor and a black patient. Even in anesthesia, when my rare black patient's see me walk in a room the initial reaction is vastly different then when I walk into a white patient's. It's just the way it is. A black woman from an urban area would probably want a black woman physician > woman physician > "gimme any physician".
Click to expand...
That reasoning wouldn’t justify a hospital in Connecticut (are they a pretty white state?) avoiding black doctors any more than it justifies racial discrimination in admissions to me......but we might just have to disagree here
 
narcusprince said:
Practicing in the south black patients love to see black doctors. To educate some of you. The black community as a whole does not trust many of the white community due to the history. Look up ths tuskegee experiments. This stuff still gets circulated in the black community. Without black representation many blacks just would not see doctors and the presentation would be end stage problems. Imagine if the Germans won the war after murdering and disinfranchising the jewish community. Would many of them trust German doctors? What happened at Tuskegee was just as bad as Joseph Mengal.
Click to expand...
But that’s not at all a justification for racial discrimination in hiring or admissions

I’m cool with jailing the tuskeegee docs forever, I’m not cool with using that as an excuse to racially discriminate against uninvolved people
 
sb247 said:
But that’s not at all a justification for racial discrimination in hiring or admissions

I’m cool with jailing the tuskeegee docs forever, I’m not cool with using that as an excuse to racially discriminate against uninvolved people
Click to expand...

There lies the problem.....you view this as discrimination against white people. White people make up over half of medical school admissions with Asians being nearly one quarter. Where's the discrimination?

Edit: Source
https://www.aamc.org/download/321540/data/factstableb5.pdf
 
Twiggidy said:
There lies the problem.....you view this as discrimination against white people. White people make up over half of medical school admissions with Asians being nearly one quarter. Where's the discrimination?

Edit: Source
https://www.aamc.org/download/321540/data/factstableb5.pdf
Click to expand...
The discrimination comes from some races being forced to post consistently higher stats to have equal odds of admission. Discrimination isn’t the same as a ban and you are too educated to be pretending you don’t understand that a group can be discriminated against and still have success

Any asian applicant would drastically increase their acceptance rate if they changed only their race and nothing else about their application
 
sb247 said:
The discrimination comes from some races being forced to post consistently higher stats to have equal odds of admission. Discrimination isn’t the same as a ban and you are too educated to be pretending you don’t understand that a group can be discriminated against and still have success

Any asian applicant would drastically increase their acceptance rate if they changed only their race and nothing else about their application
Click to expand...

I'm not pretending anything. I'm saying white people aren't being discriminated against when they still make up the majority of professional fields. I think you're more intelligent than to believe that's actually happening. Show me the white student with excellent grades that didn't get into *any* schools then I may buy the argument but then again that person may also need to soul search their application and interviewing skills.

And as I said earlier, many of these programs target poor white kids as well because their communities need professionals as well. I know people think "diversity" is an ugly word (or an old wooden ship) but it's important to make an effort to decrease disparities that are in these communities, and yes, even the poor white Appalachian communities.
 
Twiggidy said:
I'm not pretending anything. I'm saying white people aren't being discriminated against when they still make up the majority of professional fields. I think you're more intelligent than to believe that's actually happening. Show me the white student with excellent grades that didn't get into *any* schools then I may buy the argument but then again that person may also need to soul search their application and interviewing skills.

And as I said earlier, many of these programs target poor white kids as well because their communities need professionals as well. I know people think "diversity" is an ugly word (or an old wooden ship) but it's important to make an effort to decrease disparities that are in these communities, and yes, even the poor white Appalachian communities.
Click to expand...
You aren’t looking at the stats properly. They used to be posted in the wamc forum here.... but there are breakdowns by race of acceptance rates for given stats (mcat/gpa) and across the board black and hispanic students have significantly higher acceptance rates at all stat points than white or asian applicants.

That is discrimination and discrimination is “ugly” even if you try to pretty it up by calling it diversity
 
sb247 said:
You aren’t looking at the stats properly. They used to be posted in the wamc forum here.... but there are breakdowns by race of acceptance rates for given stats (mcat/gpa) and across the board black and hispanic students have significantly higher acceptance rates at all stat points than white or asian applicants.

That is discrimination and discrimination is “ugly” even if you try to pretty it up by calling it diversity
Click to expand...

Ok so I'll play along and give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's say the world plays according to the criteria you want to establish. Then what happens to these communities that need doctors. I mean look how much we talk on this very sub-thread about "not wanting to work in BFE" therefore the CRNAs are taking over. How many residency graduates do you think are running to establish practices for underserved communities? How many on here WANT to work in a black community? The fact that even I as an anesthesiologist has a hard to time working in 'my' community because how many surgery centers are in black communities? Few. Why? Because the mostly white and asian surgeons are working in higher class communities (to make good money) which happen to be communities that look like them. A good handful will work in BFE if either they came from there.

Diversity may be 'ugly' to the people who don't contribute to it but without diversity you create disparities and it's disparities that we're trying to fix.
 
Couple of comments -

The article says general anesthesia was not used - that is a load of crap. I don't think you can do a tummy tuck without general anesthesia. We do GA all the time without endotracheal intubation or supraglottic airway devices. And IF it was under GA, then to not have CO2 monitoring is a huge problem (obviously).

Second -
"Let me say this: i would not care if they teabagged me"
I'm reserving the right to quote this out of context later.

Super funny - seriously good job.

Third -
AcidBase1 - Thank you so much that you apologized. I found that refreshing and courageous.

Fourth - Chocomorsel - thanks for accepting the apology. I was getting irked that his apology was getting unacknowledged, but it came up eventually. I am reading this much later so I don't know the timing of all that.

Fifth - I stopped reading because it got much less interesting around page 3.
 
Twiggidy said:
Ok so I'll play along and give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's say the world plays according to the criteria you want to establish. Then what happens to these communities that need doctors. I mean look how much we talk on this very sub-thread about "not wanting to work in BFE" therefore the CRNAs are taking over. How many residency graduates do you think are running to establish practices for underserved communities? How many on here WANT to work in a black community? The fact that even I as an anesthesiologist has a hard to time working in 'my' community because how many surgery centers are in black communities? Few. Why? Because the mostly white and asian surgeons are working in higher class communities (to make good money) which happen to be communities that look like them. A good handful will work in BFE if either they came from there.

Diversity may be 'ugly' to the people who don't contribute to it but without diversity you create disparities and it's disparities that we're trying to fix.
Click to expand...
I the role of medical education to be training skilled physicians, not socially engineering disparities out of society.

But if we are going to assume it is the goal of a centralized force to equally distribute physicians, the answer is to pay them to offset the supply/demand issue associated with less desireable areas. Much like shift differentials, if the differential gets big enough someone wants the money. Or a med school can reserve a few slots for “if you take this seat you are bound to rural fm, or obgyn in the inner city, or must not opt out of medicaid for 5yrs”. But just racially discriminating is both unjust morally and a lazy/inaccurate substitute for the stated goal.
 
sb247 said:
You aren’t looking at the stats properly. They used to be posted in the wamc forum here.... but there are breakdowns by race of acceptance rates for given stats (mcat/gpa) and across the board black and hispanic students have significantly higher acceptance rates at all stat points than white or asian applicants.

That is discrimination and discrimination is “ugly” even if you try to pretty it up by calling it diversity
Click to expand...
I just looked at the AAMC
Stats for 2015. It is not what you are saying. I am on my phone and can’t post currently. But from what I remember Whites had an acceptance of 46%, Asians 44% Hispanics 40 or 41% and black kids 38%. I wanted to post it when I was home but I was sure that you would say something to the effect that the “White applicants where stellar applicants overall while the Black applicants were shoddy”
Will try to post it.
 
@chocomorsel

Lawper said:
2013-2015 Charts for All Applicants

The following charts are used to have a general estimate of your success rates. The contour and 3D surface plots are alternative ways to visualize the data.

Ic5mOsT.jpg


Contour Plot

k8pccfQ.jpg


3D Surface Plot

M1k5VGA.jpg


2013-2015 Chart for Hispanic or Latino Applicants

The following chart shows chances for applicants who self-identify as Hispanic or Latino.

zuDRZi9.jpg


2013-2015 Chart for Black or African American Applicants

The following chart shows chances for applicants who self-identify as Black or African American.

u2kqSeT.jpg


2013-2015 Chart for Asian Applicants

The following chart shows chances for applicants who self-identify as Asian.

ox34yQd.jpg


2013-2015 Chart for White Applicants

The following chart shows chances for applicants who self-identify as White.

v5m8VpN.jpg


2013-2015 Chart for URM Applicants

The following chart shows chances for applicants who self-identify as Hispanic or Latino, Black or African American, or American Indian or Alaskan Native (combined).

EJVuX4C.jpg
Click to expand...

Take almost any mcat/gpa intersection and different races mean significantly different acceptance rates

At 3.0/30.....
Asian is ~25%
White ~30%
Hispanic ~50%
Black ~70%
 
sb247 said:
@chocomorsel



Take almost any mcat/gpa intersection and different races mean significantly different acceptance rates

At 3.0/30.....
Asian is ~25%
White ~30%
Hispanic ~50%
Black ~70%
Click to expand...

I agreed with you that there is affirmative action, yes. Let’s not beat that horse to death.
What I was showing was that Whites still get accepted at a higher overall rate than minorities.

And also, there are lots of other factors that make a good doctor besides just grades. And most minorities come from poor and lower income households without the same access to the same level of schools or the two parent homes that their white counterparts have. And these are just SOME of the reasons their grades may not be as stellar. But Affirmative Action puts some of these students at a level playing field when they matriculate to medical school.

And that is all I am going to say about that.

Choose to act like we are all born into the exact same household and economic environments and yet minorities somehow end up doing worse, that’s your business. The fact of the matter is, minorities suffer from plenty of things that you are choosing to ignore.

Let’s agree to disagree.
 
chocomorsel said:
I agreed with you that there is affirmative action, yes. Let’s not beat that horse to death.
What I was showing was that Whites still get accepted at a higher overall rate than minorities.

And also, there are lots of other factors that make a good doctor besides just grades. And most minorities come from poor and lower income households without the same access to the same level of schools or the two parent homes that their white counterparts have. And these are just SOME of the reasons their grades may not be as stellar. But Affirmative Action puts some of these students at a level playing field when they matriculate to medical school.

And that is all I am going to say about that.

Choose to act like we are all born into the exact same household and economic environments and yet minorities somehow end up doing worse, that’s your business. The fact of the matter is, minorities suffer from plenty of things that you are choosing to ignore.

Let’s agree to disagree.
Click to expand...
If you are willing to admit that the schools are racially discriminating, I'm willing to leave it at "disagree" on whether or not that's a good thing.

We can drop it
 
Psai said:
I want to talk about what a terrible person this dancing scalpel person is, not this race crap

I realize the hypocrisy of my avatar
Click to expand...

I was going to post a giant blown up 1000x1000 pixel copy of your avatar after your post on page 1 but never got around to doing the image editing. I regret not making the effort earlier.

psai-large.gif
 
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