Dancing Videos and "Surgery" centers in Georgia

[Agast]

Call me racist but I haven’t seen many of my attendings rocking out to Tpain

I’m not going to call you racist, but you must be living under a rock. T-Pain and other rappers don’t make millions with only black people listening to their music.

As ridiculous as this “surgeon” is it sounds like the most harm to the patient came from poorly monitored sedation and unfortunately it’s the least sensational item so there’s a lack of detail.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[chocomorsel]

I’m not going to call you racist, but you must be living under a rock. T-Pain and other rappers don’t make millions with only black people listening to their music.

As ridiculous as this “surgeon” is it sounds like the most harm to the patient came from poorly monitored sedation and unfortunately it’s the least sensational item so there’s a lack of detail.

What about the 8 hour surgery? The 8 hour tummy tuck? Is that normal? Could that have contributed to her lack of breathing because she got a bunch of drugs during the duration of the surgery? Especially if she was not intubated and they were running infusions of something?

 

[Twiggidy]

I want to talk about what a terrible person this dancing scalpel person is, not this race crap

I realize the hypocrisy of my avatar

Oh she's terrible. Anyone who says otherwise is trolling.

And the CRNA who bailed on the room is "turrble too Ernie" *Charles Barkley voice*

 

[Twiggidy]

I was going to post a giant blown up 1000x1000 pixel copy of your avatar after your post on page 1 but never got around to doing the image editing. I regret not making the effort earlier.

Good lord....that nurse's cup size tho

joke.....no disrespect to the ladies in this thread

 

[vector2]

This is just my n=1, but I work at an urban level 1 trauma center where the majority of patients are black, the majority of techs, EVS, security guards, and support staff are black, but yet 80-90% of the staff physicians, residents, and med students who rotate with us are white. The same goes for the hospital across town where I did residency. I can't speak to other places, but I think you've got to be seriously naive to think under-representation isn't a problem in certain areas.

 

[deleted480308]

This is just my n=1, but I work at an urban level 1 trauma center where the majority of patients are black, the majority of techs, EVS, security guards, and support staff are black, but yet 80-90% of the staff physicians, residents, and med students who rotate with us are white. The same goes for the hospital across town where I did residency. I can't speak to other places, but I think you've got to be seriously naive to think under-representation isn't a problem in certain areas.

There is a difference between knowing a profession doesn’t match the general population statistics and thinking it’s a problem

 

[chocomorsel]

There is a difference between knowing a profession doesn’t match the general population statistics and thinking it’s a problem

Please enlighten us, what is the difference?
Elaborate.

 

[deleted480308]

Please enlighten us, what is the difference?
Elaborate.

For instance I know that there is an underrepresented situation for males in elementary education, underrepresentation of women in garbage collection......

I acknowledge that those stats don’t match the general population

I also don’t think it means anyone did anything wrong that needs to be fixed. My response is, “so what?”. A profession does not need to match the general population

 

[chocomorsel]

@sb247; So you don't think that years of slavery and marginalization of black people, the marginalization of brown people has anything to do with "anyone doing anything wrong" that may need to be fixed. Years of sexism in damn near all professions has any bearing on why most professions are male dominated?

"Yeah, so what?"

Must be nice to have such blind privilege.

I am wasting time with you. Your very rigid way of thinking is a problem for a country so diverse. You need to take some sociology classes and learn a thing or two. But I am sure you don't care as stated by your "so what" attitude.

 

[deleted480308]

@sb247; So you don't think that years of slavery and marginalization of black people, the marginalization of brown people has anything to do with "anyone doing anything wrong" that may need to be fixed. Years of sexism in damn near all professions has any bearing on why most professions are male dominated?

"Yeah, so what?"

Must be nice to have such blind privilege.

I am wasting time with you. Your very rigid way of thinking is a problem for a country so diverse. You need to take some sociology classes and learn a thing or two. But I am sure you don't care as stated by your "so what" attitude.

Racial discrimination is wrong. I can keep repeating it as many times as you need. It was wrong in the era of slavery and jim crow, it’s wrong to use it now to artificially force professions to match the general population

We simply don’t need education to be 50 percent male. We don’t need garbage collection or war fighting to be fifty percent female. We don’t need medicine, sports, engineering or law to mimic the genetal population......all fields should simply represent the best applicants regardless of demographic

I thought you wanted to drop it but we’re back again so you let me know if you want to keep discussion up

 

[pgg]

For instance I know that there is an underrepresented situation for males in elementary education, underrepresentation of women in garbage collection......

I acknowledge that those stats don’t match the general population

I also don’t think it means anyone did anything wrong that needs to be fixed. My response is, “so what?”. A profession does not need to match the general population

Where your examples go wrong is that there aren't a lot of men who want to be elementary school teachers but can't (or face huge obstacles getting there), and there aren't a lot of women who want to be garbage collectors but can't.

There aren't a lot of women who serve in the infantry, but until recently they couldn't. Now they can, and there still isn't 50/50 representation of men and women in the infantry. That's OK; that's not a problem.

But we can't say that there aren't a lot of black people who want to be doctors.

You're conflating lack of desire (male elementary school teachers, female garbage collectors) with actual unfulfilled dreams.

I don't know if affirmative action is the right way to address the issue. Of course not everybody gets to be an astronaut or MLB all star pitcher when they grow up. But the fact that the racial makeup of a high paying, prestigious profession like medicine is so far out of whack with the population at large is a problem.

At the very least it's a symptom of another problem.

You can ask why, and what can or should be done about it, but it's a problem.

 

[deleted480308]

Where your examples go wrong is that there aren't a lot of men who want to be elementary school teachers but can't (or face huge obstacles getting there), and there aren't a lot of women who want to be garbage collectors but can't.

There aren't a lot of women who serve in the infantry, but until recently they couldn't. Now they can, and there still isn't 50/50 representation of men and women in the infantry. That's OK; that's not a problem.

But we can't say that there aren't a lot of black people who want to be doctors.

You're conflating lack of desire (male elementary school teachers, female garbage collectors) with actual unfulfilled dreams.

I don't know if affirmative action is the right way to address the issue. Of course not everybody gets to be an astronaut or MLB all star pitcher when they grow up. But the fact that the racial makeup of a high paying, prestigious profession like medicine is so far out of whack with the population at large is a problem.

At the very least it's a symptom of another problem.

You can ask why, and what can or should be done about it, but it's a problem.

Anyone can study and apply to those high paying fields....the actual ability to apply is 100% open, the only open discrimination there is actually in favor of those demographics that are underrepresented and racial/gender discrimination is wrong.

Compete openly and don’t racially discriminate....that’s all I’m saying. Perfectly mirroring the general population statistics should never ever be a goal. It’s not relevant to who is the best candidate competing

 

[pgg]

Anyone can study and apply to those high paying fields....the actual ability to apply is 100% open, the only open discrimination there is actually in favor of those demographics that are underrepresented and racial/gender discrimination is wrong.

Compete openly and don’t racially discriminate....that’s all I’m saying. Perfectly mirroring the general population statistics should never ever be a goal. It’s not relevant to who is the best candidate competing

Again I wasn't making an argument for affirmative action.

I was disagreeing with your assertion that there is no problem with the fact that the racial makeup of a desirable profession is so skewed.

Blame unwed mothers or rap music if you want, but don't pretend there isn't something wrong.

 

[jwk]

According to Trump, if you’re foreign born or not white, then you’re an “animal”. If you’re white, you’re just an unfortunate man with his “wires crossed”. His language reflects his mindset. Why do people defend him?

That's not what he said.

 

[Twiggidy]

Anyone can study and apply to those high paying fields....the actual ability to apply is 100% open, the only open discrimination there is actually in favor of those demographics that are underrepresented and racial/gender discrimination is wrong.

Compete openly and don’t racially discriminate....that’s all I’m saying. Perfectly mirroring the general population statistics should never ever be a goal. It’s not relevant to who is the best candidate competing

The only aspect I think you’re missing out on is the effect on disparities in medical care. While not everybody black or brown person who goes into medicine goes back and practice in their community, many do, and that’s where representation is important. I get what you’re saying in general but when many physicians aren’t going to practice in minority communities then these communities don’t get access to care. This applies to black and brown communities as well as poor white communities

 

[deleted480308]

The only aspect I think you’re missing out on is the effect on disparities in medical care. While not everybody black or brown person who goes into medicine goes back and practice in their community, many do, and that’s where representation is important. I get what you’re saying in general but when many physicians aren’t going to practice in minority communities then these communities don’t get access to care. This applies to black and brown communities as well as poor white communities

If a customer wants someone to sell them something the seller has to get paid to show up.

I don’t think it’s the role of the “system” to artificially direct docs to certain areas......but even if it was, racial discrimination is not an appropriate method. Hold out some spaces for students legally bound to work with the poor/rural/urban or offer a pay differential but don’t use race/gender as a metric

 

[chocomorsel]

Again I wasn't making an argument for affirmative action.

I was disagreeing with your assertion that there is no problem with the fact that the racial makeup of a desirable profession is so skewed.

Blame unwed mothers or rap music if you want, but don't pretend there isn't something wrong.

Thanks. But he’s so rigid you might as well be talking to a wall. I have stopped wasting my time. He chooses not to see the reality of the world and blindly pushes forward with a very dismissive “so what” attitude.

 

[anbuitachi]

Interesting how far this thread has gone off track.
A couple of things to add to this off track thread:

Like someone above said, you are all racist. Racism is like a bias like other types of 'discrimination'. No one is born racist, they become racist due to environmental influences. Some people are more racist than others and these days I guess the media decides what is OK amount of racism and what isn't. And we all know the media only wants views/reads, that's why they propagate this topic so much. I've gotten a lot more annoyed with the media in the past few years due to their biased reporting, to stimulate reactions from people. You'll often see articles about a white police officer unjustly killing a black person all over the news, but there'll be almost no coverage on the cases where police officers kill a white person unjustly. And just as worse is when the police officer who killed the white person is black, they wont even mention the race! I blame the media for all the racial divide we have today. Sure there is racism but the media skewed it so hard that everyone thinks theres way outward racism than there is.

Another thing is, all this talk about race and representation in medicine and no one mentions Asians. That's racist. Asians are the most over represented population in medicine compared to their national population, those of you who say there should be more doctors of color are basically saying there should be fewer Asians, cause i know you are not including Asians in people of color, and thats racist. They use excuses like that in undergrad, now places like Harvard have a cap on Asians.

 

[deleted480308]

Interesting how far this thread has gone off track.
A couple of things to add to this off track thread:

Like someone above said, you are all racist. Racism is like a bias like other types of 'discrimination'. No one is born racist, they become racist due to environmental influences. Some people are more racist than others and these days I guess the media decides what is OK amount of racism and what isn't. And we all know the media only wants views/reads, that's why they propagate this topic so much. I've gotten a lot more annoyed with the media in the past few years due to their biased reporting, to stimulate reactions from people. You'll often see articles about a white police officer unjustly killing a black person all over the news, but there'll be almost no coverage on the cases where police officers kill a white person unjustly. And just as worse is when the police officer who killed the white person is black, they wont even mention the race! I blame the media for all the racial divide we have today. Sure there is racism but the media skewed it so hard that everyone thinks theres way outward racism than there is.

Another thing is, all this talk about race and representation in medicine and no one mentions Asians. That's racist. Asians are the most over represented population in medicine compared to their national population, those of you who say there should be more doctors of color are basically saying there should be fewer Asians, cause i know you are not including Asians in people of color, and thats racist. They use excuses like that in undergrad, now places like Harvard have a cap on Asians.

I mentioned asians

They get screwed

 

[ZzzPlz]

 

[ZzzPlz]

I mentioned asians

They get screwed

They sure do

 

[Twiggidy]

Interesting how far this thread has gone off track.
A couple of things to add to this off track thread:

Like someone above said, you are all racist. Racism is like a bias like other types of 'discrimination'. No one is born racist, they become racist due to environmental influences. Some people are more racist than others and these days I guess the media decides what is OK amount of racism and what isn't. And we all know the media only wants views/reads, that's why they propagate this topic so much. I've gotten a lot more annoyed with the media in the past few years due to their biased reporting, to stimulate reactions from people. You'll often see articles about a white police officer unjustly killing a black person all over the news, but there'll be almost no coverage on the cases where police officers kill a white person unjustly. And just as worse is when the police officer who killed the white person is black, they wont even mention the race! I blame the media for all the racial divide we have today. Sure there is racism but the media skewed it so hard that everyone thinks theres way outward racism than there is.

Another thing is, all this talk about race and representation in medicine and no one mentions Asians. That's racist. Asians are the most over represented population in medicine compared to their national population, those of you who say there should be more doctors of color are basically saying there should be fewer Asians, cause i know you are not including Asians in people of color, and thats racist. They use excuses like that in undergrad, now places like Harvard have a cap on Asians.

I actually did mention Asians since they make up 25% of med school admissions. You may feel personally offended but the fact is that Asians aren’t “underrepresented” in medicine.

 

[anbuitachi]

I actually did mention Asians since they make up 25% of med school admissions. You may feel personally offended but the fact is that Asians aren’t “underrepresented” in medicine.

Nah I dont get offended by these things. But in the end everyones out for themselves. If one group benefits another group is hurt and it can be hard to justify to the individual that you can't do XYZ because you belong in this group. Asians aren't becoming doctors due to the governments or regulatory help, but if a rule gets passed that reduces the number of Asians then i think Asians then become the target of racism. Therefore I will always continue to support the merit system because I dont want to think about telling a kid you cant do XYZ because of your race.

 

[Twiggidy]

No one will ever be happy. Someone always gets hosed. There’s more to this subthread of a discussion than “people are discriminating” but it’s to hard to have on an online forum.

My summary is this, a merit based system would of course be the most fair but that assumes all thing equal in this country. We can argue this until the cows come home but education opportunities aren’t equal for every in this country so these things are put in place to make up for that. Basically, “these guys have subpar opportunity so let’s take the best of ‘them’ so their community can be represented and maybe have someone who will serve that community” Does it come at the expense of someone else? Yep. And again IT’S NOT JUST RACE. The kid is rural WV needs opportunities as well because even that community does not have the same advantages as Greenwich, CT.

 

[anbuitachi]

No one will ever be happy. Someone always gets hosed. There’s more to this subthread of a discussion than “people are discriminating” but it’s to hard to have on an online forum.

My summary is this, a merit based system would of course be the most fair but that assumes all thing equal in this country. We can argue this until the cows come home but education opportunities aren’t equal for every in this country so these things are put in place to make up for that. Basically, “these guys have subpar opportunity so let’s take the best of ‘them’ so their community can be represented and maybe have someone who will serve that community” Does it come at the expense of someone else? Yep. And again IT’S NOT JUST RACE. The kid is rural WV needs opportunities as well because even that community does not have the same advantages as Greenwich, CT.

This is the 'quick fix' mentality which I dont support in todays USA. US is one of the most democratic nation on the planet. There are tons of opportunities and it is what you make of it. If you decide to have kids, your actions will also have an impact on your kids. The 'successful' (financially) people today, the lawyers, the engineers, bankers, were not born as such. I bet you many of them entered their field as first generations. The important thing is people need to realize that your life is mostly in your own hands and if you want something you have to work for it to have a chance to succeed. The odds may be way more against you than someone born into a wealthy family but it's far higher than if you dont work hard. The issue is too many people in this country are entitled. They want free health insurance, free meals, free shelter, basic income, and xyz b/c they are 'disadvantaged'. That's not the case in most nations on the planet. From where I came from, if you were born into a disadvantaged situation, the mentality would I got handed a weak hand, what can I do to make up for it. Life isn't fair, your parents matter, your community matters. You may have to sacrifice way more to be where you want to be. It often takes generations to build a wealthy family line. Sure blacks, asians, hispanics are disadvantaged in that regard but I think 100 years later it will become much more balanced in this country (financially), since you are giving these people time to move up the ladder. (you are already seeing some of this in the Asian population)

 

[chocomorsel]

Well @anbuitachi, do you have a better solution than the "quick fix" you are complaining about?

 

[deleted162650]

Well @anbuitachi, do you have a better solution than the "quick fix" you are complaining about?

Maybe we should just have separate schools? Black kids go to this school, white kids to that school, Asians to another school. I mean, as long as the schools are separate but equal right??

 

[dpmd]

Well @anbuitachi, do you have a better solution than the "quick fix" you are complaining about?

They basically included it in their post. People should make the best of what they have to work with and strive to improve the situation for their kids who should do the same and over time there will be advancement. Don't have kids you can afford was sort of implied in it but perhaps it was more along the lines of don't expect society to make up for you having kids you can't provide for.

 

[chocomorsel]

Maybe we should just have separate schools? Black kids go to this school, white kids to that school, Asians to another school. I mean, as long as the schools are separate but equal right??

Quite frankly, if separate was actually equal back in the day, it may have worked.
But clearly some people's idea of equal is different than others.

What about today's solutions? Not some from fifty years ago. I mean people complain all the time about affirmative action while at the same time acknowledging that the inequalities exist and something must be done, but no one is coming up with ideas of anything better.

My idea was all schools get the same amount of funding so that minorities and poorer people have access to stellar or good schools as well. And that can be accomplished by a flat tax plan, not a graduated tax. With more federal involvement. That would be a great start and I would vote for a candidate with that idea.

 

[chocomorsel]

They basically included it in their post. People should make the best of what they have to work with and strive to improve the situation for their kids who should do the same and over time there will be advancement. Don't have kids you can afford was sort of implied in it but perhaps it was more along the lines of don't expect society to make up for you having kids you can't provide for.

Well this thread is getting way and way off topic but I will keep playing.
The vast majority of poor people cannot afford their kids. How do you prevent them from having children? What if whether or not they can afford it, they do want those kids? Should we sterilize them after say a kid or two? How do you know that said poor kids cannot grow up to make a big difference in the world around them?
Ehh, this is more sociopolitical forum talk now. I remember this same exact conversation there.

 

[dchz]

I want to give mad probs to @sb247 . Despite all the ad hominem attacks, you've stuck to logical reasoning and made perfectly logical and constructive comments. Mad props.

I love SDN because we can all stay relatively anonymous and have an exchange of ideas. The ideas in this thread has gone away from basic and medical science and has gone towards the social sciences. But i don't think that's a bad thing. @Twiggidy is right, someone always gets hosed. And i'm sure @acidbase1 wasn't trying to be racist or offend others, but when an exchange of idea happens, it's not all comfort and sunshine.

Some of us are so entrenched into our own world view that we cannot accept other logically presented ideas. There are many reasons to this; when someone else tells us our own world view is not correct, they also tend to speak from a stance of moral superiority - we are emotionally offended that someone thinks they are superior. Other times, we are so emotionally invested to what we think is true, that a shake in world view could send emotional shockwaves throughout our lives - so flatly rejecting others might be a defensive mechanism.

Disclaimer: what i'm typing out in this is not meant to come from a moral high ground, nor am i trying to emotionally trying to offend anyone or trying to rock your world. I am typing this simply because spreading of bad logic and ideas appals me. And @sb247 have been targeted enough, i'm gonna take some heat off him. Here are my points that I want to add:

The doctor in the original post is a bad doctor and does not contribute positively to society. Not because of her race, her gender, nor her culture. But because she cares more about her bottom line than her patient's well being. Her dancing videos are a knock on her profesionalism and not on her culture or the area she serves. I don't think that is at debate here.

The current system in medical school admittance is racist. Granting someone favorable admittance based on ethnic origin or race is by definition racist. Favoring one portion of the population indirectly and directly discriminates agains other portions of the population.

The current system in medical school admittance does not do the job of helping those that were intended to be helped. The idea is that you want more underprivileged "minorities" to be placed in the medical schools. But that's not what's happening. Overprivliged "minorities" are getting these spots. There is no proof of income nor are the admissions comittees looking at them. What ends up happening is that over privileged 1%er that happened to be hispanic or black is getting the spots meant for the underprivileged person.

Equality of representation is an inpotent and simple solution to a complex problem. It doesn't fix anything. We have too many points of choice in the system. What the originiators viewed as something that supposedly fixes past injustice only passes more injustice to more people - this attribute makes it worse than not having anything at all.

Two examples I want to use to drive the points home:

1. NBA:
The NBA is the highest paying athletic association. It is 74.4% African American, 23.3% White players, 1.3% Latino, and 0.2% Asian. That is in no way representative of the general population.
If we were to apply the logic of affirmative action, we would definitely need to have more Latino players. Who cares if they can't dunk and they are short and can't handle a basketball, we want to inspire more Mexican Americans to be role models. Who does that hurt? It's gonnna invariably hurt the current players that worked their ass to have a spot on a team. But hey, they aren't Latino, and the Latino had it bad by the spanish inquisition.

2. My friend J:
My friend J was half-korea and half-japanese American born citizen. His ethnicity would be an outrage in both countries given their history, so his parents moved to America so he wouldn't be discriminated against if they stayed in Korea or Japan (Irony so sweet it's gonna give me diabetes). J's parent's arent defined as skilled works by our economy so all they could afford is to have a meager apt by working two jobs each (one at a sweat shop and one at a dry cleaner). J didn't grow up with privilige nor did he want it. But his mastery of calculus and complex sciences were subpar compared to my friend D (full Taiwanese) whose parents are both doctors and grew up in a private school.

When it comes to the stats my friend J had a 31 MCAT, and a 3.5 science GPA from a state school. D: 33 MCAT, 3.7 science GPA from same state school.
My friend A (full Mexican) whose parents are lawyers and doctors, had a 30 MCAT and 3.2 scienced GPA from the same state school.
My last friend Y is a first generation immigrant from Nigeria, he moved here when he was 5 years old and his parents were software engineers and he grew up in the same upper middle class city as me. His MCAT was 25 and 3.0 science GPA from a private mid tier university.

My friend D, Y, and A are now in residency. But this is the third time my friend J has applied to medical school and he did not match for a third time. He finally took the plunge and went to a Carribean medical school.





Lastly, damn it. I never thought I'd have to sit my kid down one day and tell him he can't get into Harvard despite his stellar SAT score and extracirrculars because I'm Asian and I'm his dad. But when I tell him/her this, I will also tell him/her that any kid of mine will not look towards those that got it easier than him/her and cry it's not fair nor use it as an excuse to punish others. My kid will only use injustice as drive for him/her to get better.

Two Wongs don't make a White.

 

[deleted480308]

Quite frankly, if separate was actually equal back in the day, it may have worked.
But clearly some people's idea of equal is different than others.

What about today's solutions? Not some from fifty years ago. I mean people complain all the time about affirmative action while at the same time acknowledging that the inequalities exist and something must be done, but no one is coming up with ideas of anything better.

My idea was all schools get the same amount of funding so that minorities and poorer people have access to stellar or good schools as well. And that can be accomplished by a flat tax plan, not a graduated tax. With more federal involvement. That would be a great start and I would vote for a candidate with that idea.

In most school districts each school does actually have the same base funding. What they don’t all have is the same amount of two parent families, same amount of parent volunteer hours, same amount of parents who push the idea of college and good grades on their kids etc etc

 

[dchz]

Does it come at the expense of someone else? Yep. And again IT’S NOT JUST RACE. The kid is rural WV needs opportunities as well because even that community does not have the same advantages as Greenwich, CT.

It does come at the expennse of someone else, just like my friend J here.

It IS just Race, med school admission comittees and undergrad admission comittees add what they call "Race" as a factor. Chinese = Korean = Filipino = Indian = Hawaiian, Nigrean = Eritrean = Haitian, Spanish = Argentinian = Mexican = Brazilian. because the fact that race was in there wasn't racist enough, they gotta be racist in the way the qualify race.

 

[dpmd]

Well this thread is getting way and way off topic but I will keep playing.
The vast majority of poor people cannot afford their kids. How do you prevent them from having children? What if whether or not they can afford it, they do want those kids? Should we sterilize them after say a kid or two? How do you know that said poor kids cannot grow up to make a big difference in the world around them?
Ehh, this is more sociopolitical forum talk now. I remember this same exact conversation there.

No one is saying to externally control that. Poor kids can grow up to make a difference in the world. The ones that do usually had parents that helped with homework or at least made sure they did it if they didn't have the education to help them. They were likely taught that studying and doing well in school was the key to success later. They were likely taught they could grow up to do anything if they worked hard for it and that no one was just going to hand them success. The solution requires personal responsibility and action not just external efforts.

 

[dchz]

The solution requires personal responsibility and action not just external efforts.

Ridiculous thought isn't it?

 

[dpmd]

Ridiculous thought isn't it?

It is a blasphemy evidently.

 

[chocomorsel]

@dchz, you cannot say that AA only affects the 1% of URMs. That is quite a generalization.
Where are your stats to back that up? How do you know? Your anecdotes are just that. Anecdotes.
Maybe there needs to be a proof of parental income added to the AA criteria. That would indeed tend to make things more fair.

I my medical school class of 15 blacks, I can only think of one single person who's parents were MD/Phd/Lawyers/successful business people. But I gotta do some more research. While I can't think of anyone who grew up in the urban city hood per say, many of us grew up in lower to middle income homes. In my younger years I was lower income and in my high school years we moved up to middle class. Heck, one of my peers was a war refugee.

But lower income in the general US population is probably equivalent to upper class in the black/brown/poor world.

Sucks to be your friend J though. He will probably do well and succeed.

 

[dchz]

@dchz, you cannot say that AA only affects the 1% of URMs. That is quite a generalization.
Where are your stats to back that up? How do you know? Your anecdotes are just that. Anecdotes.

WTF? If after all that I stated and my example of the latinos in the NBA = "affirmative action only affects 1% of URMs". I think we can just agree to disagree.

 

[anbuitachi]

Who decided to use race? They also use sex in these selections as well. Who decided that's what diversity is all about. There are other things that matter too such as your height. Height is mostly genetic . Asians and Hispanics are on average shorter than white and black and there's research documenting bias against shorter people. Why not include height too? Give those short people some love? In the end, none of this make much sense but they do it cause I imagine it's good for PR. Whether it has any real world impact who knows. Do you guys feel like the country has improved since affirmative action started? Is income inequality smaller?

 

[chocomorsel]

WTF? If after all that I stated and my example of the latinos in the NBA = "affirmative action only affects 1% of URMs". I think we can just agree to disagree.

Why don’t you go back and read your post. Actually let me quote it before you edit it. Short term memory issues? Try some Ginko Biloba.

The current system in medical school admittance does not do the job of helping those that were intended to be helped. The idea is that you want more underpriviliged "minorities" to be placed in the medical schools. But that's not what's happening. Overprivliged "minorities" are getting these spots. There is no proof of income nor are the admissions comittees looking at them. What ends up happening is that over priviliged 1%er that happened to be hispanic or black is getting the spots meant for the underprivileged person.

Equality of representation is an inpotent and simple solution to a complex problem. It doesn't fix anything. We have too many points of choice in the system. What the originiators viewed as something that supposedly fixes past injustice only passes more injustice to more people - this attribute makes it worse than not having anything at all.

Two examples I want to use to drive the points home:

1. NBA:
The NBA is the highest paying athletic association. It is 74.4% African American, 23.3% White players, 1.3% Latino, and 0.2% Asian. That is in no way representative of the general population.
If we were to apply the logic of affirmative action, we would definitely need to have more Latino players. Who cares if they can't dunk and they are short and can't handle a basketball, we want to inspire more Mexican Americans to be role models. Who does that hurt? It's gonnna invariably hurt the current players that worked their ass to have a spot on a team. But hey, they aren't Latino, and the Latino had it bad by the spanish inquisition.

2. My friend J:
My friend J was half-korea and half-japanese American born citizen. His ethnicity would be an outrage in both countries given their history, so his parents moved to America so he wouldn't be discriminated against if they stayed in Korea or Japan (Irony so sweet it's gonna give me diabetes). J's parent's arent defined as skilled works by our economy so all they could afford is to have a meager apt by working two jobs each (one at a sweat shop and one at a dry cleaner). J didn't grow up with privilige nor did he want it. But his mastery of calculus and complex sciences were subpar compared to my friend D (full Taiwanese) whose parents are both doctors and grew up in a private school.

When it comes to the stats my friend J had a 31 MCAT, and a 3.5 science GPA from a state school. D: 33 MCAT, 3.7 science GPA from same state school.
My friend A (full Mexican) whose parents are lawyers and doctors, had a 30 MCAT and 3.2 scienced GPA from the same state school.
My last friend Y is a first generation immigrant from Nigeria, he moved here when he was 5 years old and his parents were software engineers and he grew up in the same upper middle class city as me. His MCAT was 25 and 3.0 science GPA from a private mid tier university.

My friend D, Y, and A are now in residency. But this is the third time my friend J has applied to medical school and he did not match for a third time. He finally took the plunge and went to a Carribean medical school.





Lastly, damn it. I never thought I'd have to sit my kid down one day and tell him he can't get into Harvard despite his stellar SAT score and extracirrculars because I'm Asian and I'm his dad. But when I tell him/her this, I will also tell him/her that any kid of mine will not look towards those that got it easier than him/her and cry it's not fair nor use it as an excuse to punish others. My kid will only use injustice as drive for him/her to get better.

Two Wongs don't make a White.

 

[chocomorsel]

Who decided to use race? They also use sex in these selections as well. Who decided that's what diversity is all about. There are other things that matter too such as your height. Height is mostly genetic . Asians and Hispanics are on average shorter than white and black and there's research documenting bias against shorter people. Why not include height too? Give those short people some love? In the end, none of this make much sense but they do it cause I imagine it's good for PR. Whether it has any real world impact who knows. Do you guys feel like the country has improved since affirmative action started? Is income inequality smaller?

It's not about feeling, it's about stats. And yes, AA has improved the lives of many and opened doors that once were closed to certain populations of people. That's just the reality.

 

[deleted480308]

It's not about feeling, it's about stats. And yes, AA has improved the lives of many and opened doors that once were closed to certain populations of people. That's just the reality.

what you mean is affirmative action has managed to replace a large number of otherwise higher achieving candidates with lower achieving ones based on race...

 

[anbuitachi]

It's not about feeling, it's about stats. And yes, AA has improved the lives of many and opened doors that once were closed to certain populations of people. That's just the reality.

Well that's a given. My question is for the country as a whole is it doing anything . What is the end goal for AA? cause you can also say his friend J got screwed and may never be the dermatologist that he dreamed of being. Either way I think we are slowly seeing more push back from Asians. There's only so much you can take before pushing and fighting back. I have a feeling AA will disappear in the next few decades. I wonder what will become of this Harvard lawsuit

 

[dchz]

Why don’t you go back and read your post. Actually let me quote it before you edit it. Short term memory issues? Try some Ginko Biloba.

This is my last response to your ad hominem attacks. I'm calling you out on your BS. I only edited because i mispelled the words "privilege" and "discriminate". I did not edit anything about "AA only affects the 1% of URMs"

Have a great day.

 

[chocomorsel]

This is my last response to your ad hominem attacks. I'm calling you out on your BS. I only edited because i mispelled the words "privilege" and "discriminate". I did not edit anything about "AA only affects the 1% of URMs"

Have a great day.

Jeez, you are a little wound up. If you go back and read your post you did say that the "what ends up happening is the over privileged 1% of blacks and hispanics get the spots meant for the underprivileged". Quoted from you exactly. I only wanted to show what you typed since you seem to have forgotten it. And people often times, including me, go back and edit stuff all the time. Just wanted to catch it and show you that I didn't make that s hit up!! You said that and you seem to have forgotten.

You need a glass.... nah, a bottle of wine. To go with your whine. But I guess that won't help with ad-hominem attacks I guess.

 

[acidbase1]

I want to give mad probs to @sb247 . Despite all the ad hominem attacks, you've stuck to logical reasoning and made perfectly logical and constructive comments. Mad props.

I love SDN because we can all stay relatively anonymous and have an exchange of ideas. The ideas in this thread has gone away from basic and medical science and has gone towards the social sciences. But i don't think that's a bad thing. @Twiggidy is right, someone always gets hosed. And i'm sure @acidbase1 wasn't trying to be racist or offend others, but when an exchange of idea happens, it's not all comfort and sunshine.

Some of us are so entrenched into our own world view that we cannot accept other logically presented ideas. There are many reasons to this; when someone else tells us our own world view is not correct, they also tend to speak from a stance of moral superiority - we are emotionally offended that someone thinks they are superior. Other times, we are so emotionally invested to what we think is true, that a shake in world view could send emotional shockwaves throughout our lives - so flatly rejecting others might be a defensive mechanism.

Disclaimer: what i'm typing out in this is not meant to come from a moral high ground, nor am i trying to emotionally trying to offend anyone or trying to rock your world. I am typing this simply because spreading of bad logic and ideas appals me. And @sb247 have been targeted enough, i'm gonna take some heat off him. Here are my points that I want to add:

The doctor in the original post is a bad doctor and does not contribute positively to society. Not because of her race, her gender, nor her culture. But because she cares more about her bottom line than her patient's well being. Her dancing videos are a knock on her profesionalism and not on her culture or the area she serves. I don't think that is at debate here.

The current system in medical school admittance is racist. Granting someone favorable admittance based on ethnic origin or race is by definition racist. Favoring one portion of the population indirectly and directly discriminates agains other portions of the population.

The current system in medical school admittance does not do the job of helping those that were intended to be helped. The idea is that you want more underprivileged "minorities" to be placed in the medical schools. But that's not what's happening. Overprivliged "minorities" are getting these spots. There is no proof of income nor are the admissions comittees looking at them. What ends up happening is that over privileged 1%er that happened to be hispanic or black is getting the spots meant for the underprivileged person.

Equality of representation is an inpotent and simple solution to a complex problem. It doesn't fix anything. We have too many points of choice in the system. What the originiators viewed as something that supposedly fixes past injustice only passes more injustice to more people - this attribute makes it worse than not having anything at all.

Two examples I want to use to drive the points home:

1. NBA:
The NBA is the highest paying athletic association. It is 74.4% African American, 23.3% White players, 1.3% Latino, and 0.2% Asian. That is in no way representative of the general population.
If we were to apply the logic of affirmative action, we would definitely need to have more Latino players. Who cares if they can't dunk and they are short and can't handle a basketball, we want to inspire more Mexican Americans to be role models. Who does that hurt? It's gonnna invariably hurt the current players that worked their ass to have a spot on a team. But hey, they aren't Latino, and the Latino had it bad by the spanish inquisition.

2. My friend J:
My friend J was half-korea and half-japanese American born citizen. His ethnicity would be an outrage in both countries given their history, so his parents moved to America so he wouldn't be discriminated against if they stayed in Korea or Japan (Irony so sweet it's gonna give me diabetes). J's parent's arent defined as skilled works by our economy so all they could afford is to have a meager apt by working two jobs each (one at a sweat shop and one at a dry cleaner). J didn't grow up with privilige nor did he want it. But his mastery of calculus and complex sciences were subpar compared to my friend D (full Taiwanese) whose parents are both doctors and grew up in a private school.

When it comes to the stats my friend J had a 31 MCAT, and a 3.5 science GPA from a state school. D: 33 MCAT, 3.7 science GPA from same state school.
My friend A (full Mexican) whose parents are lawyers and doctors, had a 30 MCAT and 3.2 scienced GPA from the same state school.
My last friend Y is a first generation immigrant from Nigeria, he moved here when he was 5 years old and his parents were software engineers and he grew up in the same upper middle class city as me. His MCAT was 25 and 3.0 science GPA from a private mid tier university.

My friend D, Y, and A are now in residency. But this is the third time my friend J has applied to medical school and he did not match for a third time. He finally took the plunge and went to a Carribean medical school.





Lastly, damn it. I never thought I'd have to sit my kid down one day and tell him he can't get into Harvard despite his stellar SAT score and extracirrculars because I'm Asian and I'm his dad. But when I tell him/her this, I will also tell him/her that any kid of mine will not look towards those that got it easier than him/her and cry it's not fair nor use it as an excuse to punish others. My kid will only use injustice as drive for him/her to get better.

Two Wongs don't make a White.

Well stated. I can’t even begin to understand how difficult it is to be an African American in the US. I’m not minimizing it. I watched 7 years a slave and was in tears by the end of it, truly tragic how black people were treated.

However, I’ve stood next to too many black folks to count who have been wildly successful and were not held back by the color of their skin. In fact, our chief resident my CA1 year was black and by far the most respected resident in the program. (I still chat w him every month or two).

For me, the frustrating part is seeing some use color/racism as a crutch. Blaming white guys who aren’t racist and acting like we owe them something. None of the horrors of slavery occurred in our lifetime. Maybe I’m naive, but I feel like minorities have every opportunity (in some cases more) if they do what everyone else is doing to succeed.

This is America, work your a$$ off and pave your way to prosperity.

 

[deleted171991]

I actually did mention Asians since they make up 25% of med school admissions. You may feel personally offended but the fact is that Asians aren’t “underrepresented” in medicine.

They actually are, compared to the situation when admissions were based on merit, not on skin color, income and other stuff that has NO relation to the candidate's quality.

Asian and white males are discriminated against exactly the same way African Americans are discriminated for. When one discriminates for certain groups, all the others get disadvantaged; it's easy logic.

 

[deleted171991]

Who decided to use race? They also use sex in these selections as well. Who decided that's what diversity is all about. There are other things that matter too such as your height. Height is mostly genetic . Asians and Hispanics are on average shorter than white and black and there's research documenting bias against shorter people. Why not include height too? Give those short people some love? In the end, none of this make much sense but they do it cause I imagine it's good for PR. Whether it has any real world impact who knows. Do you guys feel like the country has improved since affirmative action started? Is income inequality smaller?

We forgot obese people. They are more discriminated against than women.

 

[Twiggidy]

what you mean is affirmative action has managed to replace a large number of otherwise higher achieving candidates with lower achieving ones based on race...

white women are the largest beneficiaries of affirmative action

 

[Twiggidy]

Well stated. I can’t even begin to understand how difficult it is to be an African American in the US. I’m not minimizing it. I watched 7 years a slave and was in tears by the end of it, truly tragic how black people were treated.

However, I’ve stood next to too many black folks to count who have been wildly successful and were not held back by the color of their skin. In fact, our chief resident my CA1 year was black and by far the most respected resident in the program. (I still chat w him every month or two).

For me, the frustrating part is seeing some use color/racism as a crutch. Blaming white guys who aren’t racist and acting like we owe them something. None of the horrors of slavery occurred in our lifetime. Maybe I’m naive, but I feel like minorities have every opportunity (in some cases more) if they do what everyone else is doing to succeed.

This is America, work your a$$ off and pave your way to prosperity.

there have been studies that argue agaimst this sentiment (hiring based on name, african americans and mortgages are a couple). if you havent, take a read of Coates’s Atlantic article “Case for Reparations”. To say all things are equal is naive. Look at a public school in a black neighborhood and public school in a suburban white neighborhood and tell me they’re equal. they’re not not matter how much people want to say ‘they’re funded equally’. if you do think that all opportunities are equal then ask yourself this, “would you send your kid to a school in a black neighborhood?” i guarantee you choco, narcus, and I would send our kids to a school in a white neighborhood with no question.