Dancing Videos and "Surgery" centers in Georgia

[Twiggidy]

We forgot obese people. They are more discriminated against than women.

true. lean and good looking benefits you not matter what race you are which is i have 2 gym memberships (that i dont use enough)

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[Twiggidy]

And to bring the thread full circle, its why people like Choco, Narcus, and I are under the impression that we”re scrutinized more than our white colleagues. We’re viewed as affirmative action cases everyday, whetther conscious or subconscious, and have to prove that we’re not by working hard and not being an embarrassment. This Dancing OR lady is an embarrassment to all physicians but especially so to the black ones who are out here trying to prove that we belong.

 

[dpmd]

And to bring the thread full circle, its why people like Choco, Narcus, and I are under the impression that we”re scrutinized more than our white colleagues. We’re viewed as affirmative action cases everyday, whetther conscious or subconscious, and have to prove that we’re not by working hard and not being an embarrassment. This Dancing OR lady is an embarrassment to all physicians but especially so to the black ones who are out here trying to prove that we belong.

I would certainly rather the focus shift towards programs to try to help kids do better in school and help low income kids overcome barriers to higher education and then have them get into med school through merit so that they quit having other people feel like the only reason they got in was because someone dropped the standards.

 

[dchz]

if you do think that all opportunities are equal then ask yourself this, “would you send your kid to a school in a black neighborhood?” i guarantee you choco, narcus, and I would send our kids to a school in a white neighborhood with no question.

I would not send my kids to a predominately urban neighborhood if i had the choice. I've been through it. it was horrible... Therefore my kid will be discriminated against simply because of my ethnicity.

The solution for racial inequality is to discriminate more against other races????

 

[dchz]

I would certainly rather the focus shift towards programs to try to help kids do better in school and help low income kids overcome barriers to higher education and then have them get into med school through merit .

That's why i volunteered for Big Brothers and Big Sisters program, hoping to make a difference through exactly this.

 

[chocomorsel]

I would not sent my kids to a predominately urban neighborhood if i had the choice. I've been through it. it was horrible... Therefore my kid will be discriminated against simply because of my ethnicity.

The solution for racial inequality is to discriminate more against other races????

What he was referring to was the quality of the education in the urban black neighborhoods compared to the Suburbian White schools, not the ethnicity of the fellow students.

Geez, you clearly misunderstood.

How about sending your kids to the poor mountain Appalachia schools then? Would that be a better analogy?

 

[chocomorsel]

WTF? If after all that I stated and my example of the latinos in the NBA = "affirmative action only affects 1% of URMs". I think we can just agree to disagree.

AA only affects the top 1 % of URMs is what I meant to quote. Forgot the TOP part and in my head was thinking percentile. No wonder you were so worked up.
I still highly doubt your stats though.

 

[qwerty89]

there have been studies that argue agaimst this sentiment (hiring based on name, african americans and mortgages are a couple). if you havent, take a read of Coates’s Atlantic article “Case for Reparations”. To say all things are equal is naive. Look at a public school in a black neighborhood and public school in a suburban white neighborhood and tell me they’re equal. they’re not not matter how much people want to say ‘they’re funded equally’. if you do think that all opportunities are equal then ask yourself this, “would you send your kid to a school in a black neighborhood?” i guarantee you choco, narcus, and I would send our kids to a school in a white neighborhood with no question.

Culture matters as well. It’s not all about funding. You go to a school in the Bay Area like Palo Alto High or Homestead or Monte Vista (predominantly Asian) and I can guarantee you that you will not have discipline issues anywhere remotely close to an inner city school. Students respect their teachers and pay attention when they instructed. You send your kid to a school in the poor inner city and you have major issues with discipline. And discipline, by and large, has nothing to do with funding. Books, school supplies, quality of teachers? Yeah that’s affected by funding. But not discipline.

Go to a school in India.
Dirt floors.
Old chalkboard.
Limited books and school supplies.

Yet all the students respect the teacher. The students diligently take notes and listen. Nobody is starting a fight during class or playing music loudly on the radio during lecture. Now we can talk another time about the faults of that education system (focus on memorization rather than understanding, etc) but there is no doubt that culture matters. You can put a million dollars into each and every inner city school, but that wont make the kids sit down and pay attention.

 

[deleted480308]

white women are the largest beneficiaries of affirmative action

Still end it. Everyone should pull their own weight

 

[deleted171991]

there have been studies that argue agaimst this sentiment (hiring based on name, african americans and mortgages are a couple). if you havent, take a read of Coates’s Atlantic article “Case for Reparations”. To say all things are equal is naive. Look at a public school in a black neighborhood and public school in a suburban white neighborhood and tell me they’re equal. they’re not not matter how much people want to say ‘they’re funded equally’. if you do think that all opportunities are equal then ask yourself this, “would you send your kid to a school in a black neighborhood?” i guarantee you choco, narcus, and I would send our kids to a school in a white neighborhood with no question.

So if they are funded equally, why are they different, and who's at fault for that?

 

[deleted171991]

And to bring the thread full circle, its why people like Choco, Narcus, and I are under the impression that we”re scrutinized more than our white colleagues. We’re viewed as affirmative action cases everyday, whetther conscious or subconscious, and have to prove that we’re not by working hard and not being an embarrassment. This Dancing OR lady is an embarrassment to all physicians but especially so to the black ones who are out here trying to prove that we belong.

You are right. At least I recognize my own bias about it. That doesn't mean that I don't give credit when credit it's due (I enjoy beautiful minds regardless of the packaging), but my expectations are lower. The same way my expectations are higher with Asians. It's also based on life experience, no offense.

As you pointed out, it's not only funding, it's the mentalities. Asians have their "tiger mothers", and it matters tremendously. I was raised by one of them (I am not Asian), because otherwise I would have just been a lazy punk instead of a valedictorian. That's something the government cannot fix in a country where everybody whines about rights and nobody about obligations. One cannot abuse teachers and expect them to perform miracles. Hence a lot of education is left to the parents, and the cycle perpetuates.

I had outstanding teachers, but one bad attitude and I was thrown out of class for an hour, and, if it went on, one was thrown out of school, period. I am Facebook friends and exchange messages with my high school Physics and English teachers, decades later. I still am extremely grateful to both of them.

You cannot have quality teaching in a "democracy". That's BS. One doesn't get performance by spoiling the pupils (NOT "students" - that should be reserved for adults, not whining spoiled kids). That's why Asian countries (and not only) beat the heck out of Americans in K-12 math and science (which is the main education that matters in a competitive world). We focus on social sciences as if we are raising the next Roman Emperor, and then we are surprised that our kids suck at real life jobs. We use high school as extended kindergarten, instead of AP level courses like the good educational systems.

We should stop despising the Korean and Chinese systems, and how their kids are "tortured" in high school. Those societies will run circles around us in 100 years (just look how far both have come in 50 years or so). That education will pay back big time. My own comes from a system like that, and I could teach high school science or math tomorrow, decades after I was taught. That's how good it was.

 

[chocomorsel]

Have to agree, I was appalled about the lack lack of respect for teachers when I moved here.
This was a mixed, predominantly white school.

Never been to an inner city school, but I bet it’s bad. Nor have I been to a predominantly Asian school.

 

[anbuitachi]

You are right. At least I recognize my own bias about it. That doesn't mean that I don't give credit when credit it's due (I enjoy beautiful minds regardless of the packaging), but my expectations are lower. The same way my expectations are higher with Asians. It's also based on life experience, no offense.

As you pointed out, it's not only funding, it's the mentalities. Asians have their "tiger mothers", and it matters tremendously. I was raised by one of them (I am not Asian), because otherwise I would have just been a lazy punk instead of a valedictorian. That's something the government cannot fix in a country where everybody whines about rights and nobody about obligations. One cannot abuse teachers and expect them to perform miracles. Hence a lot of education is left to the parents, and the cycle perpetuates.

I had outstanding teachers, but one bad attitude and I was thrown out of class for an hour, and, if it went on, one was thrown out of school, period. I am Facebook friends and exchange messages with my high school Physics and English teachers, decades later. I still am extremely grateful to both of them.

You cannot have quality teaching in a "democracy". That's BS. One doesn't get performance by spoiling the pupils (NOT "students" - that should be reserved for adults, not whining spoiled kids). That's why Asian countries (and not only) beat the heck out of Americans in K-12 math and science (which is the main education that matters in a competitive world). We focus on social sciences as if we are raising the next Roman Emperor, and then we are surprised that our kids suck at real life jobs. We use high school as extended kindergarten, instead of AP level courses like the good educational systems.

We should stop despising the Korean and Chinese systems, and how their kids are "tortured" in high school. Those societies will run circles around us in 100 years (just look how far both have come in 50 years or so). That education will pay back big time. My own comes from a system like that, and I could teach high school science or math tomorrow, decades after I was taught. That's how good it was.

I was going to post something like this ! Thanks !

But I think culture is more important than how well your school is funded especially in America in today's age. The majority of people have access to the internet. There are many places you can learn from. Most of my teachers in elementary and middle school sucked and didn't take it seriously. You can learn more online from like Wikipedia/YouTube than any classroom. You just have to value education which most of our population dont

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Jeez, you are a little wound up. If you go back and read your post you did say that the "what ends up happening is the over privileged 1% of blacks and hispanics get the spots meant for the underprivileged". Quoted from you exactly. I only wanted to show what you typed since you seem to have forgotten it. And people often times, including me, go back and edit stuff all the time. Just wanted to catch it and show you that I didn't make that s hit up!! You said that and you seem to have forgotten.

You need a glass.... nah, a bottle of wine. To go with your whine. But I guess that won't help with ad-hominem attacks I guess.

I read his post as talking about blacks and Hispanics who were in the 1%, meaning rich blacks/Hispanics. I'm making no judgments or getting involved in this rest of this, just trying to offer clarity.

 

[dchz]

We’re viewed as affirmative action cases everyday.

While the current system isn't fair. I'm very sorry you all feel this way. It really sucks. It is unfair to you as an individual.
If it makes you feel better. I truly believe in what i said about skin color being one of millions of characteristics that define us. Hopefully more and more people see it that way.
I view most of my Nigerian colleagues more like other Asian immigrants than "Black", other than their skin color, their life story is more like mine than someone with which i went to middle school (in the urban city).

 

[Twiggidy]

While the current system isn't fair. I'm very sorry you all feel this way. It really sucks. It is unfair to you as an individual.
If it makes you feel better. I truly believe in what i said about skin color being one of millions of characteristics that define us. Hopefully more and more people see it that way.
I view most of my Nigerian colleagues more like other Asian immigrants than "Black", other than their skin color, their life story is more like mine than someone with which i went to middle school (in the urban city).

We could have an entire separate thread on this alone. Africans vs African-Americans, which yes, are not the same outside the color of our skin. Different struggles.

 

[Twiggidy]

So if they are funded equally, why are they different, and who's at fault for that?

For starters it's "per student" funding. Urban schools tend to have smaller enrollements than their surburban counterparts which leads to suburban schools having more money. Now this is from a small sample from my home state but I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't happen elsewhere. I know where I live locally, parents in the rich suburbs are "expected" to make a "donation" of something like $1000 per student to the school to help support the school. That doesn't happen in poor urban communities. That creates a disparity in quality of education. Now does it take effort on both sides? Of course. You need a motivated kid in that classroom, but if the classroom stinks (sometime literally) the motivation won't be there

 

[deleted480308]

For starters it's "per student" funding. Urban schools tend to have smaller enrollements than their surburban counterparts which leads to suburban schools having more money. Now this is from a small sample from my home state but I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't happen elsewhere. I know where I live locally, parents in the rich suburbs are "expected" to make a "donation" of something like $1000 per student to the school to help support the school. That doesn't happen in poor urban communities. That creates a disparity in quality of education. Now does it take effort on both sides? Of course. You need a motivated kid in that classroom, but if the classroom stinks (sometime literally) the motivation won't be there

The donation thing is a pretty foreign concept to me. I grew up pretty hillbilly and now live in a pretty absurd golf community with a very upper end public school. Never even a hint of someone saying we owed the school a donation. But we do have incredibly active parents. Some of the sports have volunteer asst coaches that are retired pro athletes, we have art volunteers with degrees and galleries, broadway experience from some of the volunteers for music/drama programs and stuff like that......

Funding is the same but the school isn’t at all the same as the school farther out in the woods

 

[CopaceticOne]

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

And to bring the thread full circle, its why people like Choco, Narcus, and I are under the impression that we”re scrutinized more than our white colleagues. We’re viewed as affirmative action cases everyday, whetther conscious or subconscious, and have to prove that we’re not by working hard and not being an embarrassment. This Dancing OR lady is an embarrassment to all physicians but especially so to the black ones who are out here trying to prove that we belong.

No that's just being racist. Dr. Nassir is far more of a disgrace to the medical profession but no one talks about his race. Even if affirmative action was repealed they would still have a negative opinion of you. Yeah going through med school passing boards, going through residency and if people view you as an affirmative action case then they would have a negative option about you regardless.

Also helping urban schools is the same as affirmative action.

You are holding blacks to an impossible standard if they are judged by one bad apple. Also this doc got into dermatology so I doubt the affirmative action argument applies.

 

[deleted480308]

The reason I work so hard is to give my kid those extra steps

 

[deleted171991]

Nobody denies that we stand on the shoulders of our parents and ancestors. I just don't feel it's fair to be punished because of it.

I have nothing against the state providing support for the less fortunate (mentoring, tutoring, scholarships etc.) for equal opportunity. I am only against discriminating against/for people, on ANY basis that's not their fault/merit.

So take the video and think that the African American and Latino kids are in front and the Asian (and possibly white) males are in the back, and that's how American college admissions look. And no, it's not "compensating" for anything; it just replaces one wrong with a different one. And that's how you get Trump, even from decent people.

I grew up in a merit-based system. My parents worked hard so I could have private tutors. I didn't need them. I worked my butt off to get into medical school, and I still remember my exact scores and ranking (both were public). I was a minority, but nobody "protected" me, because everything was merit-based, and that included failing exams. May the best (wo)man win.

Stop playing the minority card. Fight for equal opportunities, not special favors. If you want to be treated like an equal, behave like one, don't accept positive discrimination. I don't know of many countries where one is asked race and minority status all the time.

 

[chocomorsel]

Wow. Powerful. Who did this video?

On the same note, we as black people need to do better and improve from within our communities. As in, we gotta push to be better, work just as hard, if not harder, stop idolizing that “thug” life, idolize books instead.

Instead of looking at the glass half empty, we gotta start looking at it as half full and realize that as a black person in this country, one is fairing better than most other blacks in the world, due to the safety nets the government provides that lack in African countries.

I see a lot of apathy in black communities. As in, accepting that this is how black life is and will always be and focusinf too much on the obstacles instead of trying to break those obstacles down. And it’s sad quite frankly. A lot of it is based on ignorance of how other black people simply have it worse. African Americans need to travel outside of the US more in order to see this but that’s easier said than done.

The rest of us who do work hard and get somewhere in life do constantly have to keep proving that yes, we do belong. And if Affirmative Action got me on equal footing to begin the race, does that really matter if the end product is a good physician, good lawyer, engineer, nurse, what have you? Why are people so bitter about a program that was created to address most, if not all those variables mentioned in the above video? I can guarantee that my skinny butt was left way in the back of the line based on that video. So are damn near every black person I know. So while it may not be fair to all, it’s the best system we have at this time.

Now off my soapbox.

 

[chocomorsel]

Nobody denies that we stand on the shoulders of our parents and ancestors. I just don't feel it's fair to be punished because of it.

I have nothing against the state providing support for the less fortunate (mentoring, tutoring, scholarships etc.) for equal opportunity. I am only against discriminating against/for people, on ANY basis that's not their fault/merit.

So take the video and think that the African American and Latino kids are in front and the Asian (and possibly white) males are in the back, and that's how American college admissions look. And no, it's not "compensating" for anything; it just replaces one wrong with a different one. And that's how you get Trump, even from decent people.

I grew up in a merit-based system. My parents worked hard so I could have private tutors. I didn't need them. I worked my butt off to get into medical school, and I still remember my exact scores and ranking (both were public). I was a minority, but nobody "protected" me, because everything was merit-based, and that included failing exams. May the best (wo)man win.

Stop playing the minority card. Fight for equal opportunities, not special favors. If you want to be treated like an equal, behave like one.

And if you take the video as it is, then that’s how most public schools are. So do we continue to let all of them lag behind? Even the ones who are really trying to find a way out but can not overcome every single obstacle?

 

[deleted171991]

And if you take the video as it is, then that’s how most public schools are. So do we continue to let all of them lag behind? Even the ones who are really trying to find a way out but can not overcome every single obstacle?

Of course not. And that's where the federal government should intervene. There is a reason our best students don't even consider becoming teachers, while in countries with excellent public schools, like Finland, teachers are recruited from among the best.

Give poor kids the schooling, the mentoring, the tutoring, the tuition, the opportunities they need (no child left behind in the real sense of those words), and let admissions be merit-based. Every time we protect a group, we discriminate against the rest. In a world with only so many good college spots, jobs etc., it's a zero-sum game. Affirmative action feels unjust for those who are discriminated against, and generates bad juju. Let the best (wo)man win, regardless of skin, race, ethnicity, religion, sex etc. Stop dishing out favors to special interests.

 

[Twiggidy]

Of course not. And that's where the federal government should intervene. There is a reason our best students don't even consider becoming teachers, while in countries with excellent public schools, like Finland, teachers are recruited from among the best.

Give poor kids the schooling, the mentoring, the tutoring, the tuition, the opportunities they need (no child left behind in the real sense of those words), and let admissions be merit-based. Every time we protect a group, we discriminate against the rest. In a world with only so many good college spots, jobs etc., it's a zero-sum game. Affirmative action feels unjust for those who are discriminated against, and generates bad juju. Let the best (wo)man win, regardless of skin, race, ethnicity, religion, sex etc. Stop dishing out favors to special interests.

I mean, maybe there shoudn't be affirmative action programs for professional schools because at that point a minority attending college essential has the same opportunities and resources as a white student attending college. that's an argument that can be made. when it comes to college admissions though I can make the argument the kid from inner-city/rural area doesn't have the same education "resources"' as kid from wealthy suburb/wealthy private school. they both have "an" education but that wealthy/private education is very likely much better than the public education the former received. we can preach "work hard to pay for tutors" all we want but I dont think many of us understand how much poor families actually struggle. my personal view of affirmative action is that you're taking the "best" who have had the "least" amount of resources. Again, I think I can buy why it shouldn't apply to professional schools because if I go to, say Columbia and SB goes to Columbia, we both went to Columbia, therefore had all the same resources. We were on the same level.

 

[Twiggidy]

Of course not. And that's where the federal government should intervene. There is a reason our best students don't even consider becoming teachers, while in countries with excellent public schools, like Finland, teachers are recruited from among the best.

.

Lots of factors here. In Finland, teaching is actual a very respected and competitive profession. I can literally go get a certificate and go out and teach within the next year here if I wanted. That's not to say that I'm not a competitive teaching candidate, I mean I proved I had what it takes to become a fellowship trained physician, but people are battling for teaching positions in Finland, unlike here. They get paid a competitive salary compared to other professions which is also a factor. I'd say another interested point would be how many may choose to live. This is from the hip, but here in the US, we love our big houses, with big yards, and fancy cars. From my travels to Europe, it really seems that people can be quite content living in a modest apartment that doesn't cost a fortune. If that's the case, it makes teaching an attractive field because with the salary, you can still "live". That last point is just a guess.

 

[CopaceticOne]

Nobody denies that we stand on the shoulders of our parents and ancestors. I just don't feel it's fair to be punished because of it.
{sic}
Stop playing the minority card. Fight for equal opportunities, not special favors. If you want to be treated like an equal, behave like one, don't accept positive discrimination. I don't know of many countries where one is asked race and minority status all the time.

The point of posting that video was simply to highlight what people mean by "privilege". Fundamentally isn't a race thing but a socioeconomic thing that, within the general society of the USA, happens to grossly coincide with ethnicity. When an individual fails to appreciate the potentially enormous head start / leg up that they had because they were able to "stand on the shoulders" of their parents & ancestors, then they are at a loss to appreciate the hurdles faced by those that did not have such advantages.

This should never be about being punished for starting with an advantage; but rather, as you said, providing "equal opportunities". The key is understanding that for an opportunity to be truly equal, those additional hurdles must also be dealt with. Another way to examine the disparity is this cartoon:

 

[pgg]

Of course not. And that's where the federal government should intervene. There is a reason our best students don't even consider becoming teachers, while in countries with excellent public schools, like Finland, teachers are recruited from among the best.

Give poor kids the schooling, the mentoring, the tutoring, the tuition, the opportunities they need (no child left behind in the real sense of those words), and let admissions be merit-based. Every time we protect a group, we discriminate against the rest. In a world with only so many good college spots, jobs etc., it's a zero-sum game. Affirmative action feels unjust for those who are discriminated against, and generates bad juju. Let the best (wo)man win, regardless of skin, race, ethnicity, religion, sex etc. Stop dishing out favors to special interests.

It's not enough to have great teachers. And I'm not sure I agree that there's much of a gain to be made by recruiting better people to be teachers. We ought to pay teachers better as a matter of fairness and basic pride in our civilization, but that's not the solution.

My kids were in public schools up until high school. We put them in a private school mainly because of the other students in the district - disruptive, bullying, but also far enough behind academically that they were holding classes back to that lowest common denominator. My kids' teachers, even in this district, were all excellent. The other places we lived had great public schools with wonderful teachers. But what was really remarkably different about those other school districts, was that 98% of the kids lived in economically stable households and got breakfast every day. Just looking at the cars in the lot at school events, I know there were a lot more successful dual income families and a lot fewer single parents there.

The reason throwing more money at schools doesn't tend to fix them is because money and the teachers aren't the problem. It's the broken communities where the students are coming from.

You can give these kids all the mentoring, tutoring, tuition, and opportunities in the world and at best you might boost a small percentage of them out of the cycle of poverty. That's still worth doing, but the long term answer is in changing the culture that put their parents there and keeps them there. Much of that is on the minority communities themselves, and this chart shows the single biggest problem:

but those of us in the majority have an obligation to fix the problem too, even if it involves some degree of personal sacrifice. We're all Americans[1] and the security and prosperity of everyone in the country should be something we're willing to work for, above and beyond just being successful little cogs in our part of the machine.

Is it fair for the economic majority to give up a few seats to economic minorities? It's no more "fair" than a progressive taxation system where wealthier people pay not only more in absolute numbers but also in percentage of income. But there's a good argument that it's better for the nation as a whole. If fairness isn't a sufficient motivator, self preservation ought to be. There's only so long a perpetual underclass will tolerate being under.


[1] except you dirty unwashed foreigners intruding on this 'Merica centric forum

 

[Psai]

The point of posting that video was simply to highlight what people mean by "privilege". Fundamentally isn't a race thing but a socioeconomic thing that, within the general society of the USA, happens to grossly coincide with ethnicity. When an individual fails to appreciate the potentially enormous head start / leg up that they had because they were able to "stand on the shoulders" of their parents & ancestors, then they are at a loss to appreciate the hurdles faced by those that did not have such advantages.

This should never be about being punished for starting with an advantage; but rather, as you said, providing "equal opportunities". The key is understanding that for an opportunity to be truly equal, those additional hurdles must also be dealt with. Another way to examine the disparity is this cartoon:

This cartoon is such self righteous bs

 

[Twiggidy]

It's not enough to have great teachers. And I'm not sure I agree that there's much of a gain to be made by recruiting better people to be teachers. We ought to pay teachers better as a matter of fairness and basic pride in our civilization, but that's not the solution.

My kids were in public schools up until high school. We put them in a private school mainly because of the other students in the district - disruptive, bullying, but also far enough behind academically that they were holding classes back to that lowest common denominator. My kids' teachers, even in this district, were all excellent. The other places we lived had great public schools with wonderful teachers. But what was really remarkably different about those other school districts, was that 98% of the kids lived in economically stable households and got breakfast every day. Just looking at the cars in the lot at school events, I know there were a lot more successful dual income families and a lot fewer single parents there.

The reason throwing more money at schools doesn't tend to fix them is because money and the teachers aren't the problem. It's the broken communities where the students are coming from.

You can give these kids all the mentoring, tutoring, tuition, and opportunities in the world and at best you might boost a small percentage of them out of the cycle of poverty. That's still worth doing, but the long term answer is in changing the culture that put their parents there and keeps them there. Much of that is on the minority communities themselves, and this chart shows the single biggest problem:

but those of us in the majority have an obligation to fix the problem too, even if it involves some degree of personal sacrifice. We're all Americans[1] and the security and prosperity of everyone in the country should be something we're willing to work for, above and beyond just being successful little cogs in our part of the machine.

Is it fair for the economic majority to give up a few seats to economic minorities? It's no more "fair" than a progressive taxation system where wealthier people pay not only more in absolute numbers but also in percentage of income. But there's a good argument that it's better for the nation as a whole. If fairness isn't a sufficient motivator, self preservation ought to be. There's only so long a perpetual underclass will tolerate being under.


[1] except you dirty unwashed foreigners intruding on this 'Merica centric forum

Damn....70%.

 

[Perrotfish]

You cannot have quality teaching in a "democracy". That's BS. One doesn't get performance by spoiling the pupils (NOT "students" - that should be reserved for adults, not whining spoiled kids). That's why Asian countries (and not only) beat the heck out of Americans in K-12 math and science (which is the main education that matters in a competitive world). We focus on social sciences as if we are raising the next Roman Emperor, and then we are surprised that our kids suck at real life jobs. We use high school as extended kindergarten, instead of AP level courses like the good educational systems..

Do our kids 'suck' at real life job nows? Is all engineering innovation happening in China? Did Silicon Valley shut down last week? Has someone else landed on the moon and I didn't notice?

One of the problems with education is that its really hard to measure a 'good' education. So, very often, we just fall back on whatever IS measurable and focus on that. Its not really that different from the crap we deal with as physicians. 'Look, this hospital is better than ours, they use the sepsis bundle on 98% of ER patients and their HEDIS and ORYX measures are through the roof!'. 'Look, Asia has a better education system than ours, all their standardized tests say so!'. The only real measurement of quality education is a nation's ability to sustain GDP growth over time. By that measure our education system seems to be working really, really well.

 

[anbuitachi]

Do our kids 'suck' at real life job nows? Is all engineering innovation happening in China? Did Silicon Valley shut down last week? Has someone else landed on the moon and I didn't notice?

One of the problems with education is that its really hard to measure a 'good' education. So, very often, we just fall back on whatever IS measurable and focus on that. Its not really that different from the crap we deal with as physicians. 'Look, this hospital is better than ours, they use the sepsis bundle on 98% of ER patients and their HEDIS and ORYX measures are through the roof!'. 'Look, Asia has a better education system than ours, all their standardized tests say so!'. The only real measurement of quality education is a nation's ability to sustain GDP growth over time. By that measure our education system seems to be working really, really well.

To be fair, our GDP growth over recent years have been pretty lackluster. meanwhile china is growing at 7%-10% a year since 1990s

 

[Perrotfish]

To be fair, our GDP growth over recent years have been pretty lackluster. meanwhile china is growing at 7%-10% a year since 1990s

We said that about Japan once. Centrally planned economies have a habit of flaming out when their per capita GDPs get within spitting distance of ours.

 

[anbuitachi]

We said that about Japan once. Centrally planned economies have a habit of flaming out when their per capita GDPs get within spitting distance of ours.

Yea but whats the point of comparing your gdp to a tiny countries. the larger country will have a higher peak in my opinion. japan is like maxed out. they dont have the resources

 

[nimbus]

Do our kids 'suck' at real life job nows? Is all engineering innovation happening in China? Did Silicon Valley shut down last week? Has someone else landed on the moon and I didn't notice?

One of the problems with education is that its really hard to measure a 'good' education. So, very often, we just fall back on whatever IS measurable and focus on that. Its not really that different from the crap we deal with as physicians. 'Look, this hospital is better than ours, they use the sepsis bundle on 98% of ER patients and their HEDIS and ORYX measures are through the roof!'. 'Look, Asia has a better education system than ours, all their standardized tests say so!'. The only real measurement of quality education is a nation's ability to sustain GDP growth over time. By that measure our education system seems to be working really, really well.

We have some home grown superstars no doubt, but in general our kids do suck at math and science. Many graduate departments in hard science and engineering would be shut down without foreign (Chinese and Indian) graduate students. Over 50% percent of the grad students in some of these departments are from overseas. We don’t seem to be able to grow our own. A lot of the innovation in engineering is being performed in America by American companies but using foreign born talent. For example, Qualcomm in my community has a large proportion of chip designers who are foreign born, some permanent residents and citizens but many still on h1-b visas. We do not have a deep well of math and science talent.

 

[Twiggidy]

We have some home grown superstars no doubt, but in general our kids do suck at math and science. Many graduate departments in hard science and engineering would be shut down without foreign (Chinese and Indian) graduate students. Over 50% percent of the grad students in some of these departments are from overseas. We don’t seem to be able to grow our own. A lot of the innovation in engineering is being performed in America by American companies but using foreign born talent. For example, Qualcomm in my community has a large proportion of chip designers who are foreign born, some permanent residents and citizens but many still on h1-b visas. We do not have a deep well of math and science talent.

this is very true

 

[deleted171991]

Do our kids 'suck' at real life job nows? Is all engineering innovation happening in China? Did Silicon Valley shut down last week? Has someone else landed on the moon and I didn't notice?

One of the problems with education is that its really hard to measure a 'good' education. So, very often, we just fall back on whatever IS measurable and focus on that. Its not really that different from the crap we deal with as physicians. 'Look, this hospital is better than ours, they use the sepsis bundle on 98% of ER patients and their HEDIS and ORYX measures are through the roof!'. 'Look, Asia has a better education system than ours, all their standardized tests say so!'. The only real measurement of quality education is a nation's ability to sustain GDP growth over time. By that measure our education system seems to be working really, really well.

I'm sure that math and science are pretty high priorities, especially in areas which have trouble believing even in evolution, or the fact that the Bible is not science.



And given the fact that the average resident needs a calculator for simple operations I have been doing in my head since I was like 12...

U.S. students’ academic achievement still lags that of their peers in many other countries

 

[deleted171991]

More on-topic, a reminder to walk in other people's shoes before judging them:

Atul Gawande: Curiosity and What Equality Really Means

 

[deleted171991]

To be fair, our GDP growth over recent years have been pretty lackluster. meanwhile china is growing at 7%-10% a year since 1990s

Smaller economies/businesses will always be able to grow faster than big ones. It won't last forever.

 

[abolt18]

I'm sure that math and science are pretty high priorities, especially in areas which have trouble believing even in evolution, or the fact that the Bible is not science.



And given the fact that the average resident needs a calculator for simple operations I have been doing in my head since I was like 12...

I took 5th out of a few hundred students in a mental math competition in high school. It was always easy for me. And now as I'm starting my OR rotations doing anesthesia all the time after intern year*, I struggle to do relatively simple calculations. So I'm currently one of those residents needing the calculator.

I feel like my mental energy is spread so thin just trying to keep up with the whole "process" that it has little room for anything outside of very simple calculations. Every day the past few weeks has been information overload. I'm certain this will improve as the learning curve becomes less steep, but right now I'm maxed out.

*We hit the OR doing anesthesia the last 2 months of intern year.

 

[pgg]

To be fair, our GDP growth over recent years have been pretty lackluster. meanwhile china is growing at 7%-10% a year since 1990s

Let's check in again when they get around to setting up a superfund to pay for all the superfund sites their growth is creating. Assuming things don't come back to earth before that, when their demographic catastrophe hits.

 

[nimbus]

I took 5th out of a few hundred students in a mental math competition in high school. It was always easy for me. And now as I'm starting my OR rotations doing anesthesia all the time after intern year*, I struggle to do relatively simple calculations. So I'm currently one of those residents needing the calculator.

I feel like my mental energy is spread so thin just trying to keep up with the whole "process" that it has little room for anything outside of very simple calculations. Every day the past few weeks has been information overload. I'm certain this will improve as the learning curve becomes less steep, but right now I'm maxed out.

*We hit the OR doing anesthesia the last 2 months of intern year.

This is normal. Before you know it the OR will become your safe space. Welcome to anesthesia.

 

[deleted171991]

Worried About Big Tech? Chinese Giants Make America’s Look Tame

 

[anbuitachi]

Smaller economies/businesses will always be able to grow faster than big ones. It won't last forever.

Yea im sure it wont last forever, but China is now #2 largest economy and still growing at 7%. Pretty everyone is projecting china to surpass the US

 

[deleted171991]

Per capita it's still much smaller (~$8000), compared to ~$57000 for us.

So they still have a lot to grow.

 

[chocomorsel]

It's not enough to have great teachers. And I'm not sure I agree that there's much of a gain to be made by recruiting better people to be teachers. We ought to pay teachers better as a matter of fairness and basic pride in our civilization, but that's not the solution.

My kids were in public schools up until high school. We put them in a private school mainly because of the other students in the district - disruptive, bullying, but also far enough behind academically that they were holding classes back to that lowest common denominator. My kids' teachers, even in this district, were all excellent. The other places we lived had great public schools with wonderful teachers. But what was really remarkably different about those other school districts, was that 98% of the kids lived in economically stable households and got breakfast every day. Just looking at the cars in the lot at school events, I know there were a lot more successful dual income families and a lot fewer single parents there.

The reason throwing more money at schools doesn't tend to fix them is because money and the teachers aren't the problem. It's the broken communities where the students are coming from.

You can give these kids all the mentoring, tutoring, tuition, and opportunities in the world and at best you might boost a small percentage of them out of the cycle of poverty. That's still worth doing, but the long term answer is in changing the culture that put their parents there and keeps them there. Much of that is on the minority communities themselves, and this chart shows the single biggest problem:

but those of us in the majority have an obligation to fix the problem too, even if it involves some degree of personal sacrifice. We're all Americans[1] and the security and prosperity of everyone in the country should be something we're willing to work for, above and beyond just being successful little cogs in our part of the machine.

Is it fair for the economic majority to give up a few seats to economic minorities? It's no more "fair" than a progressive taxation system where wealthier people pay not only more in absolute numbers but also in percentage of income. But there's a good argument that it's better for the nation as a whole. If fairness isn't a sufficient motivator, self preservation ought to be. There's only so long a perpetual underclass will tolerate being under.


[1] except you dirty unwashed foreigners intruding on this 'Merica centric forum

Wow. Very well spoken and very real.
Agreed. 100%. We do need to start from within the black communities themselves. And then focus on overcoming the obstacles are set in our way.
And equal education certainly has its role to play.

 

[anbuitachi]

Per capita it's still much smaller (~$8000), compared to ~$57000 for us.

So they still have a lot to grow.

Yep and that is why they are on track to surpassing us. The people dragging down that GDP are mostly the old villagers/farmers.

 

[pgg]

Yep and that is why they are on track to surpassing us. The people dragging down that GDP are mostly the old villagers/farmers.

I know it's the nearly universal accepted "fact" that China's ascendancy is inevitable and imminent, but I don't believe it.

China is screwed for many reasons.

Provincial debt
Real estate bubble
One child policy = impending demographic catastrophe
Communist government
Culture of conformity
A billion people living in mud hut poverty
Their cheap labor is being undercut by southeast Asian countries
Nationwide environmental catastrophes are just picking up steam
Inability to project military power more than about 80 yards off their coast
Best Korea doing the things Best Korea does

Envy of China's place in the world, now or in our kids' lifetimes, is misplaced.

 

[dchz]

This is a powerful video no doubt.

I, for one, am not arguing that "the privilege" (that i didn't have growing up) doesn't exist. But the system is now punishing people by race (broadly defined by skin color), not privilege.

Imagine this white kid in the video is denied the $100 Bill if he tied the race with the black kid that started from the same spot as him.

That is the AA program. AA doesn't see what he had growing up. it doesn't matter. if his skin lacks melanin, he must be privileged. If your skin has a lot of melanin, proping you up automatically righted some wrong in the past. When in reality, it just creates more wrongs.