Difficulty of Getting a Spot in: Residency vs MD/DO Program vs PhD Program vs JD Program

[AnatomyGrey12]

This year its going to be far more competitive especially after the MD/DO Merger happens which will make things even more difficult

I have no idea what the rest of your quote has to do with what I said because you even admitted that a 3.0/27 means "competative" according to your little index thing you quoted.. A 3.0/27 has a good chance of getting into a DO school with a broad app. Look at the AACOMAS info, look at how many people matriculated with a GPA that low, or look at how many people matriculated with below a 27... The numbers are significant.

The above is wishful thinking. Goro said that this last year has seen a drop in overall applications, and combine that with the explosion of new schools and I wouldn't be surprised if the average stayed the exact same for DO schools or even dropped slightly. The established schools will probably get more competative but the rest will bring the average down.

Why do you think the merger would make things more difficult? If anything it will make people try harder for MD...

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[235009]

The above is wishful thinking. Goro said that this last year has seen a drop in overall applications, and combine that with the explosion of new schools and I wouldn't be surprised if the average stayed the exact same for DO schools or even dropped slightly. The established schools will probably get more competative but the rest will bring the average down.

Also keep in mind that several DO schools have backdoor admission policies (BS/DO and SMP programs) with far lower standards....the students who get in through these means are not counted in these reported admission stats because they don't go through the regular app. I know people who have done BS/DO and gotten in with sub-25 MCAT scores. These programs are far less common as a % of the number of schools on the MD side and the standards are still usually relatively high.

 

[tony101]

I encourage you to go look at the admission data for US MD schools broken down by MCAT score and GPA. You'll see that if you have decent numbers ~3.6/32 you've got a very good chance (>70 if i remember correctly). People on SDN like to dwell on the stats that make their achievement look more impressive like individual schools' admission % (which as described above is completely meaningless when even the most competitive students apply to 20 schools) and the % of applicants who matriculate (just under 50%) which misses the point that if you have competitive stats you (again 3.6/32) you actually have a very good chance of getting in.

A 3.6 and 32? A 32 MCAT score(which you said is a "decent" chance) is around 84th percentile. That's for a DECENT chance for MD schools(LOWER end at this point in time). I mean a great chance for the LSAT is not 84th percentile.
I found this online
http://www.lsat-center.com/prep-guide/lsat-scores/
"The LSAT is scored on a scale of 120-180. The average score is about 150, but if you’re looking to get into one of the top 25 law schools, your score should be well over 160. "

So if you want to get into top law schools, you need to aim a good amount over 160, lets say 170(86th percentile), recall 160 is 70 percentile.(That is almost 20 percentile higher) That is for TOP law schools. Good luck getting into top medical schools with a 32(which is basically the same percentile). I mean average LOW MD schools now are averaging 31 and 32's already(or 510+ on the new MCAT).

http://abovethelaw.com/career-files/whats-a-good-lsat-score/

Also saying the difference argument is a big one. Again I'm not going to ask people on different sides on the aisle. I asked people who took both tests. My teacher in Kaplan took the MCAT, got a 38/37/39 and said the LSAT was different but not close in difficulty. He said he did not even need close to the preparation, studying, etc that he needed for the MCAT to get 98 percentile on the LSAT.

 

[tony101]

I have no idea what the rest of your quote has to do with what I said because you even admitted that a 3.0/27 means "competative" according to your little index thing you quoted.. A 3.0/27 has a good chance of getting into a DO school with a broad app. Look at the AACOMAS info, look at how many people matriculated with a GPA that low, or look at how many people matriculated with below a 27... The numbers are significant.

The above is wishful thinking. Goro said that this last year has seen a drop in overall applications, and combine that with the explosion of new schools and I wouldn't be surprised if the average stayed the exact same for DO schools or even dropped slightly. The established schools will probably get more competative but the rest will bring the average down.

Why do you think the merger would make things more difficult? If anything it will make people try harder for MD...

That was for a year ago. Then a 20-24 with a 3.2-3.5 gpa or so also made you competitive. Good luck with those scores this cycle. Again things are changing very quickly. 4 years ago, I would of gotten more chances at different schools then I have a chance with my stats now. I guess we would have to wait and see but I am taking all schools as a whole. As in comparing LOW DO schools stats with LOW Law schools stats and overall requirements.

Edit: Simple! Because people will start flowing over from the MD to DO side because it will now be considered just as respected. The stats will therefore boost. The reason why many people go to MD is because they think its drastically different from DO even though both are physicians. Once the stigma is gone(or lowered), more people with high stats will apply to DO = more competition = more difficult to get in

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I'm pretty sure he knows but it still pretty much will raise the ranks of DO = MD(in the sense of people seeing the degrees) and because of that, it will become more competitive.

This is also wishful thinking.

 

[Alienman52]

This is also wishful thinking.

Why? Maybe not DO=MD but how will the merger not bump respect for DOs as they have all been ACGME trained?


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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Why? Maybe not DO=MD but how will the merger not bump respect for DOs as they have all been ACGME trained?


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It'll be a big help honestly. And it will likely be the beginning of the process that essentially sees Osteopathic Medicine as a whole merge with MD. So sure, when everyone is LCME and has an MD then we will be probably equal. But until then it's a mild boost.

 

[Alienman52]

It'll be a big help honestly. And it will likely be the beginning of the process that essentially sees Osteopathic Medicine as a whole merge with MD. So sure, when everyone is LCME and has an MD then we will be probably equal. But until then it's a mild boost.

Strongly concur


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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't think I'm embellishing my accomplishments. I agree, some people who scored well on the mcat will probably do poorly on the Lsat, namely for things like being borderline stuck at concrete operational logic and thinking. But by in large most ppl who did well on mcat could do well on lsat.

 

[tony101]

I don't think I'm embellishing my accomplishments. I agree, some people who scored well on the mcat will probably do poorly on the Lsat, namely for things like being borderline stuck at concrete operational logic and thinking. But by in large most ppl who did well on mcat could do well on lsat.

I agree. I'm not saying the LSAT is a simple test that can be done in 5 minutes. I'm just saying the difference in ranks through the obstacles and people I've spoken to who have taken both. Who knows, maybe the people I spoke to all happen to be the exceptions

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Also keep in mind that several DO schools have backdoor admission policies (BS/DO and SMP programs) with far lower standards....the students who get in through these means are not counted in these reported admission stats because they don't go through the regular app. I know people who have done BS/DO and gotten in with sub-25 MCAT scores. These programs are far less common as a % of the number of schools on the MD side and the standards are still usually relatively high.

There are also plenty of MD schools with backdoors as well. Not every BS/MD requires a 30 on the mcat, some just require a 27. Likewise some linkage programs do exist in the MD world too.

But I digress, ppl at my school who went through the linkage with our masters program tend to be doing pretty good in medical school and most have maybe a point or two off from the average in our class.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Why? Maybe not DO=MD but how will the merger not bump respect for DOs as they have all been ACGME trained?


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In academic medicine sure, but for the average community doc degree recognition wasn't really an issue. The average lay person has no clue about different degrees. With regards to normal community practice DO has always been equal MD.

What matters more directly to DO students is matching, and the match discrimination most likely will not change all that much. At least not for a good number of years in a slow process.

I agree whole heartedly that the merger will give the greatest benefit to those seeking fellowships and graduating residency looking for jobs. Academic jobs moreso than community practice.

Who knows, maybe the people I spoke to all happen to be the exceptions

When you are talking to a test tutor who has scored that high on the MCAT over and over again you are, by definition, speaking to an exception. I agree that the MCAT is a more brutal and difficult test overall, but that the LSAT tests a completely different skill set in a different way and requires a different way of thinking

 

[cliquesh]

Getting into any US MD school or a good law school is hard. I think getting into a DO school or some law school is manageable for many college students. Getting into residency, like any residency, isn't hard. Getting into a competitive residency at a good hospital is hard. I don't know anything about Ph.D. programs. I didn't read anything in this thread. I'm in line waiting for coffee and I'm bored, heh.

 

[AlteredScale]

Getting into any US MD school or a good law school is hard. I think getting into a DO school or some law school is manageable for many college students. Getting into residency, like any residency, isn't hard. Getting into a competitive residency at a good hospital is hard. I don't know anything about Ph.D. programs. I didn't read anything in this thread. I'm in line waiting for coffee and I'm bored, heh.

Hope the coffee was good at least haha.


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[Spikebd]

Hi All,

Purely for curiosity, how would you rank the difficulty of say:

• Matching into a medical residency program
• Getting into Medical School (MD/DO)
• Getting into a PhD Program (Science Related)
• Getting into Law School (JD)

For the sake of putting everything on a level playing field, let's say each program was of the same caliber in each respective field.

It's important to be said that ANY of these programs are EXTREMELY difficult to get into, but which would you say is, "less hard" than the other?

Haha I hope this doesn't make people nuts. It's purely for curiosity. What do you guys think?

Whichever one would get you the most likes and bragging rights on facebook/IG, right?

 

[Alienman52]

Whichever one would get you the most likes and bragging rights on facebook/IG, right?

Lol


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[SpaceHamsterBoo]

Lol


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Penguin Man back to his cheery old jolly self

Let's this topic rest now that we have an answer and OP is happy!

 

[Goro]

I'll agree, but it depends upon which school and programs you apply to. A Harvard PhD program will be harder to get into than one at, say, IU or MSU.

For residencies, Family Med is a lot easier to get than ENT or Derm

IMO.. easiest would be PhD, then JD, then medical residency, then medical school.

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[Alienman52]

I'll agree, but it depends upon which school and programs you apply to. A Harvard PhD program will be harder to get into than one at, say, IU or MSU.

For residencies, Family Med is a lot easier to get than ENT or Derm

I would also agree, but for the sake of simplicity I had mentioned in my first post to picture all of the degree programs as on the same tier. In other words
Mid tier Med school
Mid tier JD
Mid tier PhD

Etc. I think the verdict still stands though.


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[Goro]

The lack of respect comes from the poor training in OMSIII and IV, due to the over-reliance on preceptorships. It' s not about the "cult of Still" anymore.

Why? Maybe not DO=MD but how will the merger not bump respect for DOs as they have all been ACGME trained?


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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I really don't know a lot about PhD and JD programs myself as I'm a future med student, but I really can't imagine that PhD and JD programs are THAT easy to get into. Maybe they don't require 3.6+ GPAs and high MCATs like med schools do, but I'm sure they have their own levels of difficulty in admission...

@Law2Doc can confirm, I'm sure. Look up Cooley law school and others like it. There are law schools out there that will take just about everyone, take their money, and essentially guarantee them to not be able to get a job as a lawyer.

 

[hallowmann]

Top MD = Top JD
Other MD
DO = mid-tier JD
PhD
low-tier JD

I'm not going to comment on where to draw the "extremely difficult" line and that will depend on your interpretation of what that constitutes.

Hard to fit residency into this....getting any spot would be at the very bottom of the list but if you want to include the range of specialties and programs they would be anywhere from first to last.

Pretty much the most accurate overall reply to OP's question.

I encourage you to go look at the admission data for US MD schools broken down by MCAT score and GPA. You'll see that if you have decent numbers ~3.6/32 you've got a very good chance (>70 if i remember correctly). People on SDN like to dwell on the stats that make their achievement look more impressive like individual schools' admission % (which as described above is completely meaningless when even the most competitive students apply to 20 schools) and the % of applicants who matriculate (just under 50%) which misses the point that if you have competitive stats you (again 3.6/32) you actually have a very good chance of getting in...

This really varies on a lot of other factors, one of the biggest ones being state residence. The majority of the US MD schools with lower averages are state schools. Those state schools have a mission for taking the majority of their students from either a specific region or a specific state. I for example come from one of the top 10 states for producing medical students, but all except for one IS med school take the majority of their students from out of state, even the public schools. They give no preference for being from that state. A neighboring state with basically all but 1 state MD school takes the majority of their students from their state (all of them are majority IS matriculants except for the 1 private school). Its safe to say (although the data is not this specific) that whereas an applicant from my neighboring state with 3.6/32 is pretty much guaranteed a spot at one of their state schools (probably something like >90%), an applicant from my state with those stats might have <50% chance of getting in to a US MD school.

In any case, my point is that while this may be true overall, its kind of meaningless to the individual with the 3.6/32 that fails to get in to an MD school after multiple cycles for little more reason than their state of residence. And, I know people in this situation (it wasn't me, I was the one with a lower GPA and higher MCAT). I also know a guy who moved his state of residence after a couple cycles and then was accepted.

There are also plenty of MD schools with backdoors as well. Not every BS/MD requires a 30 on the mcat, some just require a 27. Likewise some linkage programs do exist in the MD world too.

But I digress, ppl at my school who went through the linkage with our masters program tend to be doing pretty good in medical school and most have maybe a point or two off from the average in our class.

Yeah, had I known about a linkage program that wasn't advertised on the website of a local university, I could have been guaranteed a spot at a mid-tier with a >3.25 and >27. The school was also much easier than my school in terms of getting good grades.

Now though I think they increased it to 3.5 and 30 (or whatever the equivalent is) for just a "guaranteed interview".

 

[Law2Doc]

@Law2Doc can confirm, I'm sure. Look up Cooley law school and others like it. There are law schools out there that will take just about everyone, take their money, and essentially guarantee them to not be able to get a job as a lawyer.

To be fair, it's been a loooong time since I applied to law school. Top five is hard to get into, always has been, probably on par with med school admissions. But there are a ton of law schools out there -- far more than med schools -- and most regard the bar exam, not themselves as the gatekeeper to the profession. So they'll take a lot of people who weren't stellar students and who may well not be admitted to the bar at the other end. I won't call out schools but you can google it and see that the ABA at times has de-accredited schools with bar pass rates that have dropped to single digits - that's not a testament to a stellar student body or careful recruiting or perhaps to the education you'll get while there.

But when I applied the guy with the B-/C+ GPA from a good but not top college and a reasonable LSAT could probably find a decent law school someplace that would take him. And he'd get there without ever taking organic chemistry or other classes with premeds -- you typically go to law school from a social science major and to a lot of us that's much easier a hurdle. For allo med school with some of the GPAs we are talking about, you wouldn't get through the computer screening.

As mentioned above "residency" should not be on this list. Almost every US allo grad gets "a" residency if he's realistic and wants one. If you wanted to do a useful "which is harder" thread you need to narrow it to something like a top ortho or Derm program. In which case that would be the hardest on your list because it's very few spots being fought over by many of the better credentialed med students. But to just get "a" residency is easy -- currently there are more residency spots than US allo seniors, the concept of not getting one doesn't ever enter into most US grads minds until they end up in SOAP.