DO: the underdog

[River Rat]

This is you: "I don't mean to say DO's are inferior... they just are... no offense"

Quote away, buddy.

You missed the point of the conversation. It's not why you should pick DO over MD, or that it's bad to have an MD. Don't twist my words. It's why some people leave DO behind as an option in the face of obtaining an identical degree just for sake of the letters. Some people can have legitimate reasons for MD. I'm saying that the majority of people I see not going for DO when they can't get into MD is mainly because of some false sense that DO is inferior.

you're very abrasive, and it's not quite a black and white topic as "DO = inferior" or not.
as much as you want to reason that DO = MD, which for the most part, the stellar DO can be and will have access to much of the MD world, you can't deny that the lack of leadership from the AOA, particularly difficult CME climate for DO's, are not worrisome for anyone seriously considering a career in medicine. Continuing to give anecdotal evidence about a DO that's worth his grain in salt getting a big name ROAD specialty is great and all, but realize that this is not the norm because of the DO bias that we have to work hard (harder than our MD counterparts) to overcome. To judge people for being legitimately worried about this is not right. If my end game was Radiation Oncology, you'd be hard pressed to find me not legitimately weighing the benefits of accepting admission from a D.O. program, where it seems most graduates are fast tracked towards a career in primary care. Which is NOT a bad thing. You can believe that you're stronger willed than these people, but given the reality, one could also argue that they are making a wise move by assessing their imminent reality before committing to 60k/yr in tuition to realize to have to fight their way into specialties with very limited spots, or settle for primary care. It's a very intimidating situation.

In the end, no one can deny that the ACGME world is infinitely larger than the DO world. May be an exaggeration, but this is why many many of us who have been there strongly encourage all DO students to take the USMLE and do WELL. It won't open up EVERY single door for you, but it will open up some doors for you that were not there to begin with.

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[SpecterGT260]

you're very abrasive, and it's not quite a black and white topic as "DO = inferior" or not.
as much as you want to reason that DO = MD, which for the most part, the stellar DO can be and will have access to much of the MD world, you can't deny that the lack of leadership from the AOA, particularly difficult CME climate for DO's, are not worrisome for anyone seriously considering a career in medicine. Continuing to give anecdotal evidence about a DO that's worth his grain in salt getting a big name ROAD specialty is great and all, but realize that this is not the norm because of the DO bias that we have to work hard (harder than our MD counterparts) to overcome. To judge people for being legitimately worried about this is not right. If my end game was Radiation Oncology, you'd be hard pressed to find me not legitimately weighing the benefits of accepting admission from a D.O. program, where it seems most graduates are fast tracked towards a career in primary care. Which is NOT a bad thing. You can believe that you're stronger willed than these people, but given the reality, one could also argue that they are making a wise move by assessing their imminent reality before committing to 60k/yr in tuition to realize to have to fight their way into specialties with very limited spots, or settle for primary care. It's a very intimidating situation.

In the end, no one can deny that the ACGME world is infinitely larger than the DO world. May be an exaggeration, but this is why many many of us who have been there strongly encourage all DO students to take the USMLE and do WELL. It won't open up EVERY single door for you, but it will open up some doors for you that were not there to begin with.

Thank you

you simply cannot approach this topic without someone immediately assuming you are calling him stupid and his mother a *****..... Or at least that is the idea I get from the irrational and exaggerated backlash in every one of these threads....

 

[AlabamaPop]

http://www.weillcornell.org/asolomon/index.html


This is one of many DO profiles that I've seen throughout many hospitals. DO or MD, if you put the work, get the evaluations, score well on your Step. You're bound to do well.

I think the stigma nowadays is predominant on premeds than the actual doctors in the hospitals.

FYI: Remember when you thought that if you didn't go to a "top college" it was the end of the world for you? History repeats itself.

 

[Instatewaiter]

http://www.weillcornell.org/asolomon/index.html


This is one of many DO profiles that I've seen throughout many hospitals. DO or MD, if you put the work, get the evaluations, score well on your Step. You're bound to do well.

I think the stigma nowadays is predominant on premeds than the actual doctors in the hospitals.

FYI: Remember when you thought that if you didn't go to a "top college" it was the end of the world for you? History repeats itself.

And she's the norm, right? Out of the 150 full and part time Pediatrics Faculty at Weil, she's not the only DO, right? Because then your anectdote would kinda be meaningless... don't you think?

Then she would be the exception, not the rule...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Walk me through your shoes. Why do you want an MD sitting out a year if necessary?

Well I wouldn't want to start medical school DO or MD before I felt ready and relaxed and given that I only finish my physics prereq about 3 weeks before the application season begins.... well as you can see it's not enough time to prepare. That being said I intend on making myself the best applicant I can be. It's not that I exactly want a MD, but if I can get into a top choice school like my state school why wouldn't I go to there? Either way, I also do admittedly have a desire to become an academic physician later in life and being a MD will help there.
Also I really don't feel like being a member of the AOA and learning OMM since areas of medicine I'm interested don't really use OMM, so Psychiatry, Opthalmology, Neurology, etc.

 

[AlabamaPop]

And she's the norm, right? Out of the 150 full and part time Pediatrics Faculty at Weil, she's not the only DO, right? Because then your anectdote would kinda be meaningless... don't you think?

Then she would be the exception, not the rule...

Yes she's definitely the norm, rendering my anectdote meaningful. If you look at NYU's faculty list, it contains plenty of DOs of various fields as well.

And as the years keep rolling by, the universal list of DOs in practice will continue to increase. I just would hate to have older generations (and sadly even the newer ones) stick to their old ways and sustain a stigma that should be long gone.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Yes she's definitely the norm, rendering my anectdote meaningful. If you look at NYU's faculty list, it contains plenty of DOs of various fields as well.

And as the years keep rolling by, the universal list of DOs in practice will continue to increase. I just would hate to have older generations (and sadly even the newer ones) stick to their old ways and sustain a stigma that should be long gone.

She's the norm? That's why she is the only DO out of 150 part time and full time peds faculty? Interesting take... especially for a very DO-friendly specialty.

I looked at NYUs faculty list. There are only 31 DOs at NYU. Of course there are 1,965 full time faculty at NYU... making DOs make up 1.5% of NYU. Since there are 5 or 6 DO schools in close proximity I wouldn't exactly chalk that one up in the win column.

I realize you are trying to look through rosy glasses but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

She's the norm? That's why she is the only DO out of 150 part time and full time peds faculty? Interesting take... especially for a very DO-friendly specialty.

I looked at NYUs faculty list. There are only 31 DOs at NYU. Of course there are 1,965 full time faculty at NYU... making DOs make up 1.5% of NYU. Since there are 5 or 6 DO schools in close proximity I wouldn't exactly chalk that one up in the win column.

I realize you are trying to look through rosy glasses but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

What sort of board scores would a DO need in order to be competitive for something like IM at NYU?

 

[Instatewaiter]

I don't have a great idea since I never applied to any NYC programs but I'd guess around a 235 maybe even 240ish. New York programs are pretty competitive.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

What sort of board scores would a DO need in order to be competitive for something like IM at NYU?

I think a lot of NYU's programs are pretty DO unfriendly, even if you walk on water you won't be interviewed. I remember reading that a DO on Osteo tried to interview for their psychiatry residency but was outright told they don't take DOs.

 

[AlabamaPop]

She's the norm? That's why she is the only DO out of 150 part time and full time peds faculty? Interesting take... especially for a very DO-friendly specialty.

I looked at NYUs faculty list. There are only 31 DOs at NYU. Of course there are 1,965 full time faculty at NYU... making DOs make up 1.5% of NYU. Since there are 5 or 6 DO schools in close proximity I wouldn't exactly chalk that one up in the win column.

I realize you are trying to look through rosy glasses but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

No I'm not getting ahead of myself, actually. If anything you seem to insist on viewing things from a "glass half empty" perspective. Secondly, I didn't say anything to your first reply, but since you're doing it again, I'm gonna tell you this once: don't get sarcastic with me, because I don't put up with condescending tones from anyone. So get your attitude back down to the ground.

Anyways back to the topic:

Keep in mind that most of these DOs in place had graduated from school in the 1990s and early 2000s. You're looking at about 10-20 years difference which is HUGE for DO. If they were able to really get into big name hospitals during that time, where the growth of DOs were very small, imagine in our generation and the years to come, how feasible it will be for us, given the fact that we premeds are utilizing the DO route even more now to become physicians.

NYCOM was the only school in the area at the time. TOUROCOM recently was added to the mix, so that should definitely increase the numbers plenty each year.

I'm not sure what you mean by proximity, but there had only been 1 DO school (NYCOM) until a few years ago when TOUROCOM opened. I don't consider PCOM, LECOM or UNECOM as "close proximity" because they are states apart and not everyone wants to be in a big city like NY.

 

[user3]

http://www.weillcornell.org/asolomon/index.html

"osteopathy" training? Good Lord. enough with these antiquated terms.

 

[SpecterGT260]

No I'm not getting ahead of myself, actually. If anything you seem to insist on viewing things from a "glass half empty" perspective. Secondly, I didn't say anything to your first reply, but since you're doing it again, I'm gonna tell you this once: don't get sarcastic with me, because I don't put up with condescending tones from anyone. So get your attitude back down to the ground.

Anyways back to the topic:

Keep in mind that most of these DOs in place had graduated from school in the 1990s and early 2000s. You're looking at about 10-20 years difference which is HUGE for DO. If they were able to really get into big name hospitals during that time, where the growth of DOs were very small, imagine in our generation and the years to come, how feasible it will be for us, given the fact that we premeds are utilizing the DO route even more now to become physicians.

NYCOM was the only school in the area at the time. TOUROCOM recently was added to the mix, so that should definitely increase the numbers plenty each year.

I'm not sure what you mean by proximity, but there had only been 1 DO school (NYCOM) until a few years ago when TOUROCOM opened. I don't consider PCOM, LECOM or UNECOM as "close proximity" because they are completely different states, and not everyone wants to be in a big city like NY.

Im curious to see what, exactly, would happen....


btw, state boundaries arent necessarily fair for assessing "closeness". You can fit most of new england inside of a good number of states as you head west

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

I think a lot of NYU's programs are pretty DO unfriendly, even if you walk on water you won't be interviewed. I remember reading that a DO on Osteo tried to interview for their psychiatry residency but was outright told they don't take DOs.

Oh I know that.

I was perusing Mount Sinai's IM residency list and couldn't find a single DO.

 

[TriagePreMed]

you're very abrasive, and it's not quite a black and white topic as "DO = inferior" or not.
as much as you want to reason that DO = MD, which for the most part, the stellar DO can be and will have access to much of the MD world, you can't deny that the lack of leadership from the AOA, particularly difficult CME climate for DO's, are not worrisome for anyone seriously considering a career in medicine. Continuing to give anecdotal evidence about a DO that's worth his grain in salt getting a big name ROAD specialty is great and all, but realize that this is not the norm because of the DO bias that we have to work hard (harder than our MD counterparts) to overcome. To judge people for being legitimately worried about this is not right. If my end game was Radiation Oncology, you'd be hard pressed to find me not legitimately weighing the benefits of accepting admission from a D.O. program, where it seems most graduates are fast tracked towards a career in primary care. Which is NOT a bad thing. You can believe that you're stronger willed than these people, but given the reality, one could also argue that they are making a wise move by assessing their imminent reality before committing to 60k/yr in tuition to realize to have to fight their way into specialties with very limited spots, or settle for primary care. It's a very intimidating situation.

In the end, no one can deny that the ACGME world is infinitely larger than the DO world. May be an exaggeration, but this is why many many of us who have been there strongly encourage all DO students to take the USMLE and do WELL. It won't open up EVERY single door for you, but it will open up some doors for you that were not there to begin with.

I think that you make a legitimate point, so I will agree that my position is much more on the radical side than I had intended it to be. I think that someone looking to go into very specialized fields like that has a serious case to make to go MD. Granted, you could even make the case that people that are insecure about what they want in their future may also want to have most doors open. I think you've sold me on those points. However, I still feel, based on what I see among premeds, is that the majority just want an MD because of the letters, not because they have plans to go into radiation oncology or something similar. But I guess at that point the argument stops because my point of view is subjective.

Sorry for being abrasive. Forum culture and spending too much time at Pre-Allo has been making me jaded.

 

[AlabamaPop]

I mean honestly, is this shifting to a Carib > DO now? Because if thats the case, sign me up for Grenada, ASAP

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

carib << do

fify

 

[AlabamaPop]

fify.

haha just checking!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I mean honestly, is this shifting to a Carib > DO now? Because if thats the case, sign me up for Grenada, ASAP

At least it'll be warmer than Michigan...

 

[donkeykong1]

The implicaiton here is that anyone going MD couldnt be interested in being a physician. . There are a lot of ways to cut this cake.... It is a little ridiculous to attempt to inversely correlate desire with competitiveness....

Your "implication" is completely invalid. I was talking about someone who could have gone DO, or got into DO but still wanted an MD. sorry, but i don't understand your point. anyways this is all meaningless and isn't really worth the fight.

 

[donkeykong1]

I think a lot of NYU's programs are pretty DO unfriendly, even if you walk on water you won't be interviewed. I remember reading that a DO on Osteo tried to interview for their psychiatry residency but was outright told they don't take DOs.

here's the thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=811847

IM at NYU, Cornell, Columbia, Mount Sinai is very competitive. Take a look at their resident profiles, its really hard to find a resident that is not from a mid to "god" tier (yale, harvard..) med school.

Here's the deal with the Big 4 mentioned above in NYC. They are simply world renowned research heavyweights. That's where the money is. They love MD/Phds and students who have done research are large academic institutions.

 

[donkeykong1]

Were the options for post-medical school training and job opportunities the exact same for MDs and DOs you two would have a point. But, they're not and for many people who want to do something competitive, be an academic physician or just want the best options for residency, that extra year makes all the difference. I know I would have had no shot at the residency I matched to had I not taken a year to get my **** in line.

I would argue the "options for post-medical school training and job opportunities" isn't even the same among MDs. Would you say that a grad from Meharry has the same residency/job opportunity as a Yale grad, taking board scores to be the same???

I respect your status as a resident, and from your posts I kind of know your story, you got into an awesome program coming from a low tier MD school. But lets not kid ourselves, MD=DO for all intensive purposes. The training sure varies in ACGME just like it does in AOA. Academic posts are attainable under either umbrella. (the AOA requires osteopathic board certification for PDs).

Keep in mind that DOs account for about 20% of physicians in the US, so sure they will always be outnumbered in academic posts in the ACGME world. But they are out there! Thats not the exception, its just pure stats. examples of residency PDs: Drexel's Anes. PD is a DO, Stonybrook's EM PD is a DO, Harvard/NSLIJ/Mount Sinai PMR has a DO PD, U Maryland EM as well as SUNY Buffalo has lots of DO clinical instructors...

 

[SpecterGT260]

Your "implication" is completely invalid. I was talking about someone who could have gone DO, or got into DO but still wanted an MD. sorry, but i don't understand your point. anyways this is all meaningless and isn't really worth the fight.

it wasnt my implication... it was yours.

I just think it is invalid to assume someone who passes up acceptance at a DO school to wait a year is doing so ONLY for such superficial motives.... ESPECIALLY with all of the rationale given on this subforum for reasons to go DO (i.e. location, family circumstances....). These reasons can support an MD school as well.

 

[donkeykong1]

it wasnt my implication... it was yours.

I just think it is invalid to assume someone who passes up acceptance at a DO school to wait a year is doing so ONLY for such superficial motives.... ESPECIALLY with all of the rationale given on this subforum for reasons to go DO (i.e. location, family circumstances....). These reasons can support an MD school as well.

Nah, I think you over analyzed my point. But anyhoo, i would agree that lifestyle rationale (location, family...) could be used to stave off a year on either side, MD to DO, or DO to MD. However I still believe that all things being equal not going DO and rather waiting an extra year for a "shot" at MD just doesn't seem right, if one is purely set on becoming a physician here in the U.S.

Its like saying to a guy that needs to get from point A to B, ok so I'm going to just let you have the keys to a new Porsche Boxster, but if you wait, in a year from now you might have a chance at a Lamborghini, and the guy chooses to wait a year even though he could get to point B, right then and there with the Porsche.

 

[AlabamaPop]

I would argue the "options for post-medical school training and job opportunities" isn't even the same among MDs. Would you say that a grad from Meharry has the same residency/job opportunity as a Yale grad, taking board scores to be the same???

I respect your status as a resident, and from your posts I kind of know your story, you got into an awesome program coming from a low tier MD school. But lets not kid ourselves, MD=DO for all intensive purposes. The training sure varies in ACGME just like it does in AOA. Academic posts are attainable under either umbrella. (the AOA requires osteopathic board certification for PDs).

Keep in mind that DOs account for about 20% of physicians in the US, so sure they will always be outnumbered in academic posts in the ACGME world. But they are out there! Thats not the exception, its just pure stats. examples of residency PDs: Drexel's Anes. PD is a DO, Stonybrook's EM PD is a DO, Harvard/NSLIJ/Mount Sinai PMR has a DO PD, U Maryland EM as well as SUNY Buffalo has lots of DO clinical instructors...

Thank you!! I couldn't have said it better myself.

I haven't looked at the others but Stony Brook's EM dept has more DOs than just the PD and that's just one dept of many:

http://www.stonybrookmedicalcenter.org/emergency_medicine/faculty

 

[SpecterGT260]

Nah, I think you over analyzed my point. But anyhoo, i would agree that lifestyle rationale (location, family...) could be used to stave off a year on either side, MD to DO, or DO to MD. However I still believe that all things being equal not going DO and rather waiting an extra year for a "shot" at MD just doesn't seem right, if one is purely set on becoming a physician here in the U.S.

Its like saying to a guy that needs to get from point A to B, ok so I'm going to just let you have the keys to a new Porsche Boxster, but if you wait, in a year from now you might have a chance at a Lamborghini, and the guy chooses to wait a year even though he could get to point B, right then and there with the Porsche.

so you do not ascribe to the thinking that says "only go DO if you really believe in it"? I am just trying to see where this worldview lands us in application... under what circumstances should someone who only wants to be a physician pursue an MD degree?

 

[donkeykong1]

Thank you!! I couldn't have said it better myself.

I haven't looked at the others but Stony Brook's EM dept has more DOs than just the PD and that's just one dept of many:

http://www.stonybrookmedicalcenter.org/emergency_medicine/faculty

thanks. Yup the same is true for the others. I just highlighted the PD position since it is after all just a tad bit important. DO leadership is strongest in the ACGME world, particularly on the coasts. In the midwest, since there are tons of AOA programs, most DOs just flock on over to the AOA world. Believe it or not SDN, most people just act rationally in real life!

 

[donkeykong1]

so you do not ascribe to the thinking that says "only go DO if you really believe in it"? I am just trying to see where this worldview lands us in application... under what circumstances should someone who only wants to be a physician pursue an MD degree?

You raise a great point. There are two streams in this regard of DO applicants. Those that are hardcore believers in the osteopathic philosophy/OMM, and the ideal candidate that just wants to be a physician. The latter candidate applies to both MD/DO while the former applies strictly DO.

 

[necronomicon]

so you do not ascribe to the thinking that says "only go DO if you really believe in it"? I am just trying to see where this worldview lands us in application... under what circumstances should someone who only wants to be a physician pursue an MD degree?

I know that this question wasn't directed at me, but I feel like I should stab at it, as well: I remember being in high school and thinking that I needed to go to a great school for college if I wanted a shot at med school. I went to a good school and didn't do so hot my first few years. Ended up retaking classes and turning things around enough to salvage my GPA and do well on the MCAT. Moral of story: going to (what I considered) a great college didn't help me get into med school (which, in high school, was strictly MD). After realizing this, I decided that it made no difference to me whether I went MD or DO. I knew that, from what I was able to do in college and with the MCAT, that I would be able to get into any residency I wanted if I was willing to put in the work. My mentality remains the same to this day. Point of this is that an average student (whether in college or med school) won't be reaching outlandish goals if they don't perform well--even JHU grads.

Caveat: you will hear over and over that the school doesn't make the student and that a student can do what he/she is capable of with regard to education. However, I have noticed both MD and DO students that think their desire to enter a particular field outweighs the necessity to prove (board scores) that they belong in certain positions. The system is designed to weed out people that would not do well in competitive spots--because their grades or board scores were not great and that indicates that they can't synthesize large quantities of information (anyone remember O-Chem?) and this evidently correlates with a lack of success in intrinsic surgery spots. Call me crazy, but when I have my eyes (opth), brain (neurosurg.) or spine (ortho) operated on, I want someone that is qualified academically (MD or DO), not someone that went to Harvard but barely passed step 1. Yes, statistically, your average Harvard grad will have much better credentials than your average DO grad, but when you look at the top portions of the spectrum, that discrepancy becomes less important.

I think it's important to keep things founded in reality. Sure, competitive ACGME spots are difficult to match as DO students. We all know this. The AOA match exists to eliminate some of the suspected bias that would prevent an equal DO candidate form matching alongside their MD counterpart.

In other words, the whole "go DO if you believe in it" is a paradoxical question because, in my eyes, the statement should really be "go medicine if you believe in it." If you manage to reach the checkpoints that have been designed to signify your ability to compete in very competitive residencies, there will likely be nothing stopping you from pursuing that career. /speech [steps off soapbox]

 

[donkeykong1]

I know that this question wasn't directed at me, but I feel like I should stab at it, as well: I remember being in high school and thinking that I needed to go to a great school for college if I wanted a shot at med school. I went to a good school and didn't do so hot my first few years. Ended up retaking classes and turning things around enough to salvage my GPA and do well on the MCAT. Moral of story: going to (what I considered) a great college didn't help me get into med school (which, in high school, was strictly MD). After realizing this, I decided that it made no difference to me whether I went MD or DO. I knew that, from what I was able to do in college and with the MCAT, that I would be able to get into any residency I wanted if I was willing to put in the work. My mentality remains the same to this day. Point of this is that an average student (whether in college or med school) won't be reaching outlandish goals if they don't perform well--even JHU grads.

Caveat: you will hear over and over that the school doesn't make the student and that a student can do what he/she is capable of with regard to education. However, I have noticed both MD and DO students that think their desire to enter a particular field outweighs the necessity to prove (board scores) that they belong in certain positions. The system is designed to weed out people that would not do well in competitive spots--because their grades or board scores were not great and that indicates that they can't synthesize large quantities of information (anyone remember O-Chem?). Call me crazy, but when I have my eyes (opth), brain (neurosurg.) or spine (ortho) operated on, I want someone that is qualified academically (MD or DO), not someone that went to Harvard but barely passed step 1.

I think it's important to keep things founded in reality. Sure, competitive ACGME spots are difficult to match as DO students. We all know this. The AOA match exists to eliminate some of the suspected bias that would prevent an equal DO candidate form matching alongside their MD counterpart.

In other words, the whole "go DO if you believe in it" is a paradoxical question because, in my eyes, the statement should really be "go medicine if you believe in it." If you manage to reach the checkpoints that have been designed to signify your ability to compete in very competitive residencies, there will likely be nothing stopping you from pursuing that career. /speech [steps off soapbox]

permission granted.

respect the speech

 

[AlabamaPop]

I know that this question wasn't directed at me, but I feel like I should stab at it, as well: I remember being in high school and thinking that I needed to go to a great school for college if I wanted a shot at med school. I went to a good school and didn't do so hot my first few years. Ended up retaking classes and turning things around enough to salvage my GPA and do well on the MCAT. Moral of story: going to (what I considered) a great college didn't help me get into med school (which, in high school, was strictly MD). After realizing this, I decided that it made no difference to me whether I went MD or DO. I knew that, from what I was able to do in college and with the MCAT, that I would be able to get into any residency I wanted if I was willing to put in the work. My mentality remains the same to this day. Point of this is that an average student (whether in college or med school) won't be reaching outlandish goals if they don't perform well--even JHU grads.

Caveat: you will hear over and over that the school doesn't make the student and that a student can do what he/she is capable of with regard to education. However, I have noticed both MD and DO students that think their desire to enter a particular field outweighs the necessity to prove (board scores) that they belong in certain positions. The system is designed to weed out people that would not do well in competitive spots--because their grades or board scores were not great and that indicates that they can't synthesize large quantities of information (anyone remember O-Chem?) and this evidently correlates with a lack of success in intrinsic surgery spots. Call me crazy, but when I have my eyes (opth), brain (neurosurg.) or spine (ortho) operated on, I want someone that is qualified academically (MD or DO), not someone that went to Harvard but barely passed step 1. Yes, statistically, your average Harvard grad will have much better credentials than your average DO grad, but when you look at the top portions of the spectrum, that discrepancy becomes less important.

I think it's important to keep things founded in reality. Sure, competitive ACGME spots are difficult to match as DO students. We all know this. The AOA match exists to eliminate some of the suspected bias that would prevent an equal DO candidate form matching alongside their MD counterpart.

In other words, the whole "go DO if you believe in it" is a paradoxical question because, in my eyes, the statement should really be "go medicine if you believe in it." If you manage to reach the checkpoints that have been designed to signify your ability to compete in very competitive residencies, there will likely be nothing stopping you from pursuing that career. /speech [steps off soapbox]

Exactly! And we shouldn't let narrow minded people or people who stick to rumors-become-reality-attitude to sway us in the wrong, deceiving direction. It's all about the return of the investment.

 

[Instatewaiter]

No I'm not getting ahead of myself, actually. If anything you seem to insist on viewing things from a "glass half empty" perspective. Secondly, I didn't say anything to your first reply, but since you're doing it again, I'm gonna tell you this once: don't get sarcastic with me, because I don't put up with condescending tones from anyone. So get your attitude back down to the ground.

Or what? Please... Save your big words for someone who might actually take them seriously.

Since you are a pre-med I'll take it easy on you especially since you want to do IM (which is a noble and worthy pursuit). What you don't realize is how much of an uphill battle there is. Have you noticed that everyone on this thread who is claiming that for residency MD=DO is not a med student or has not gone through the match yet?

Remember it is not "if" you will match but rather where in most cases. In some fields you have a good shot as a DO to match to a solid program- EM, PM&R and anesthesia come to mind. Other fields tell a vastly different story- surgery and surgical subspecialties, IM. There are outliers but for the most part, your options are more limited as a DO.

Let's take IM since that is what you want to do and that is what I am doing (and know the most about) and is a relatively non-competitive field. How many DO residents are there at Hopkins? MGH? The Brigham? Penn? Duke? UCSF? Stanford? UCLA? Columbia? Cornell? MSSM? NYU? OHSU? WashU? Uwash? Were your statement true that there were massive inroads in the last 10-20 years you would see at least a handful of DO residents at these places. These places take roughly 450 interns each year. Wanna guess how many DOs there are?

Penn is a great example: PCOM is literally right down the street in Philly and PCOM is a well regarded DO school. There is not a single PCOM graduate (or a DO graduate at all for that matter) at Penn... doesn't that seem strange?


So let's not front as if the options are the same. I realize that this is a pre-DO forum and most people are all "Ra-Ra DO." That's cool. I have worked with one exceptional DO in the ED here at Hopkins (not a whole lot of DOs here). He seems to have had great training wherever he came from. However, don't chastize those pre-meds who would take a single year off and shoot for MD because quite frankly, I firmly believe it is the best choice. That is all.

 

[SpecterGT260]

(although i highly suspect the "warning" was just the rattle of a toothless snake...)
I was kinda hoping for this just because of how overwhelmingly silly it is to tell someone online you "wont put up with" something....

 

[Chiroptile]

Premeds sure are a proud, funny bunch

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

Penn is a great example: PCOM is literally right down the street in Philly and PCOM is a well regarded DO school. There is not a single PCOM graduate (or a DO graduate at all for that matter) at Penn... doesn't that seem strange?

Why is that exactly? Do DOs just get trounced by the letters of rec. and research experience other graduates put on their application?

 

[HYFR]

A lot of people make valid points here. In the end, a DO is a physician, and an MD is a physician. Except for minor differences in philosophy, the great majority of the practicing of medicine is the same. No matter what degree you get, be proud of your desire to help your community.

And for those who are being negative to others- although it is unfortunate, don't let it bother you. Apply your "physician's mentality" and have empathy for those who are being negative. Let the fight go, move forward, and make good decisions in your own life.

You all are great. Good luck to everyone

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

A lot of people make valid points here. In the end, a DO is a physician, and an MD is a physician. Except for minor differences in philosophy, the great majority of the practicing of medicine is the same. No matter what degree you get, be proud of your desire to help your community.

And for those who are being negative to others- although it is unfortunate, don't let it bother you. Apply your "physician's mentality" and have empathy for those who are being negative. Let the fight go, move forward, and make good decisions in your own life.

You all are great. Good luck to everyone

I think you just killed my islets of Langerhans... thanks a bunch.

 

[HYFR]

I think you just killed my islets of Langerhans... thanks a bunch.

I'm not sure I understand the joke. But I hope your pancreas is okay

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

I'm not sure I understand the joke. But I hope your pancreas is okay

Hahaha! That was the perfect retort.

There is only so much sugar and sweetness the human body is designed to take sir. Now I'm convinced you're trying to kill me.

 

[donkeykong1]

Or what? Please... Save your big words for someone who might actually take them seriously.

Since you are a pre-med I'll take it easy on you especially since you want to do IM (which is a noble and worthy pursuit). What you don't realize is how much of an uphill battle there is. Have you noticed that everyone on this thread who is claiming that for residency MD=DO is not a med student or has not gone through the match yet?

Remember it is not "if" you will match but rather where in most cases. In some fields you have a good shot as a DO to match to a solid program- EM, PM&R and anesthesia come to mind. Other fields tell a vastly different story- surgery and surgical subspecialties, IM. There are outliers but for the most part, your options are more limited as a DO.

Let's take IM since that is what you want to do and that is what I am doing (and know the most about) and is a relatively non-competitive field. How many DO residents are there at Hopkins? MGH? The Brigham? Penn? Duke? UCSF? Stanford? UCLA? Columbia? Cornell? MSSM? NYU? OHSU? WashU? Uwash? Were your statement true that there were massive inroads in the last 10-20 years you would see at least a handful of DO residents at these places. These places take roughly 450 interns each year. Wanna guess how many DOs there are?

Penn is a great example: PCOM is literally right down the street in Philly and PCOM is a well regarded DO school. There is not a single PCOM graduate (or a DO graduate at all for that matter) at Penn... doesn't that seem strange?


So let's not front as if the options are the same. I realize that this is a pre-DO forum and most people are all "Ra-Ra DO." That's cool. I have worked with one exceptional DO in the ED here at Hopkins (not a whole lot of DOs here). He seems to have had great training wherever he came from. However, don't chastize those pre-meds who would take a single year off and shoot for MD because quite frankly, I firmly believe it is the best choice. That is all.

Cornell IM has a grad from UNECOM as pgy1 http://www.cornellmedicine.com/education/medicine_house_staff/index.html

Hopkins Bayview IM (yah not Osler) has 2 DOs as interns (PCOM, NYCOM)

If I recall UPenn IM also took on a DO, but their current resident page seems offline.

UCSF Fresno IM has a bunch of DOs and so does UCLA OliveView (lots of western grads)

Yale IM also has taken DOs

haven't checked the others. hope one day a DO will break the barrier at NYU/Columbia. Would love to be that guy, if I can just rock step1, and get some awesome recommendations.

The training at the places you mentioned for IM are stellar. Graduating from anyone of these places will most definitely get you better access to post grad fellowships/research/jobs.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Cornell IM has a grad from UNECOM as pgy1 http://www.cornellmedicine.com/education/medicine_house_staff/index.html

Hopkins Bayview IM (yah not Osler) has 2 DOs as interns (PCOM, NYCOM)

If I recall UPenn IM also took on a DO, but their current resident page seems offline.

UCSF Fresno IM has a bunch of DOs and so does UCLA OliveView (lots of western grads)

Yale IM also has taken DOs

haven't checked the others. hope one day a DO will break the barrier at NYU/Columbia. Would love to be that guy, if I can just rock step1, and get some awesome recommendations.

The training at the places you mentioned for IM are stellar. Graduating from anyone of these places will most definitely get you better access to post grad fellowships/research/jobs.

yeah... you tell that resident what it will "just" take!

 

[donkeykong1]

yeah... you tell that resident what it will "just" take!

ha ha..ok it will surely "just" take working your but off for 4 years, studying your brains out for step 1, and impressing numerous amounts of attending along the way, as well as a little luck!

got any more additions?

 

[necronomicon]

How does this argument always reduce to the same thing? Pro-DO people say, "but DO's can match in any field and every year, more programs are becoming increasingly receptive to DO students with great stats." Then, anti-DO people say, "but the best programs in the country still have no or extremely small numbers of DO students in their programs...look at Harvard, JHU, Brigham, etc."

Does it really matter all that much? So long as you can get a decent residency spot that gets you the experience needed, why does going to an elite program count? How many people here are really interested in academic medicine or anything else that would require an elitist CV? I guess I don't understand that philosophy. Sure, training for neurosurg at JHU would be swell...but does that mean that since a DO doesn't match there, then the entire degree is invalidated? People do realize that a huge number of MD applicants won't match there, either, right? Difference is that there is no additional comparison to be made...the MD is the more established degree and with history comes opportunity. Each year things become a bit easier for DO's, but there are still certain things that remain off-limits, so to speak. I don't understand how talking about them benefits either degree. Eventually, a DO will match at any program there is...but the argument will then be "but, historically, only 1 DO has ever matched--all the rest were MD's!" Since the DO will never catch up to MD as far as quantity in training, the debate cannot be won.

 

[necronomicon]

ha ha..ok it will surely "just" take working your but off for 4 years, studying your brains out for step 1, and impressing numerous amounts of attending along the way, as well as a little luck!

got any more additions?

And it would require this as MD or DO...

 

[jinobi]

Look, MD will make your path easier as compared to a DO. DO can still realistically match into most specialties, but you typically won't have as much geographical choice as a MD student with similar scores.

Pre-meds say you can work as hard at Step 1 as you can, but that's just an abstract thought in your head until you're tackled the M1-M2 curriculum.

So, if you want to go take a year off and shoot for the best chance for MD, then go for it. However, I would apply to DO concurrently still - with admissions the way they are, having any chance to be a physician is golden. I wouldn't spend an additional year reapplying if you already used one year to improve your resume.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Look, MD will make your path easier as compared to a DO. DO can still realistically match into most specialties, but you typically won't have as much geographical choice as a MD student with similar scores.

Pre-meds say you can work as hard at Step 1 as you can, but that's just an abstract thought in your head until you're tackled the M1-M2 curriculum.

So, if you want to go take a year off and shoot for the best chance for MD, then go for it. However, I would apply to DO concurrently still - with admissions the way they are, having any chance to be a physician is golden. I wouldn't spend an additional year reapplying if you already used one year to improve your resume.

this is basically what it boils down to. it is not a pot shot, or an insult. It is just a reflection of the reality of current circumstances. Do not go DO with the expectation of smoking the USMLE and just waltzing into hopkins ortho. Also do not get offended when someone tells you there is a road ahead of you - regardless of the qualifiers used to describe the road. The only person you are fooling is yourself.

 

[donkeykong1]

Look, MD will make your path easier as compared to a DO. DO can still realistically match into most specialties, but you typically won't have as much geographical choice as a MD student with similar scores.

Pre-meds say you can work as hard at Step 1 as you can, but that's just an abstract thought in your head until you're tackled the M1-M2 curriculum.

So, if you want to go take a year off and shoot for the best chance for MD, then go for it. However, I would apply to DO concurrently still - with admissions the way they are, having any chance to be a physician is golden. I wouldn't spend an additional year reapplying if you already used one year to improve your resume.

may I ask on what kind of objective data are you basing this assumption on?

 

[SpecterGT260]

may I ask on what kind of objective data are you basing this assumption on?

these arent really assumptions... too many pre-meds like to ignore facts for whatever reason.....

The only places where MD and DO are essentially completely on a level playing field for matching is FM, Peds, and possibly IM at less competitive programs. The fact that we are scraping in this thread to find big-name hospitals with DOs in the program is proof enough of this. They are underrepresented in those programs. The programs are preferential to MDs..... sorry

Now, programs are also very subjective. If you get a rotation there and the director just really really likes you then you have a better shot. This is independent of the letters behind your name and is honestly common sense. But the arguments I am hearing are phrased wrong. You are combating "it is going to be very difficult as a DO" with arguments like "it isnt impossible!" cool beans nobody said it was impossible and that doesnt invalidate the first statement....

 

[donkeykong1]

these arent really assumptions... too many pre-meds like to ignore facts for whatever reason.....

The only places where MD and DO are essentially completely on a level playing field for matching is FM, Peds, and possibly IM at less competitive programs. The fact that we are scraping in this thread to find big-name hospitals with DOs in the program is proof enough of this. They are underrepresented in those programs. The programs are preferential to MDs..... sorry

Now, programs are also very subjective. If you get a rotation there and the director just really really likes you then you have a better shot. This is independent of the letters behind your name and is honestly common sense. But the arguments I am hearing are phrased wrong. You are combating "it is going to be very difficult as a DO" with arguments like "it isnt impossible!" cool beans nobody said it was impossible and that doesnt invalidate the first statement....

i appreciate your sensitive sentiment but...Correction. They are preferential to MDs from top 20 schools.You hardly find low tier MD grads at those IM spots we talked about earlier. The fact that there are only what 26-30 DO schools and 130+ MD schools, and DOs are still found at the top of the grapevine in terms of ACGME residencies at some places tells you a lot. that is all.

You are also forgetting self-selection where the top DO students choose to simply apply AOA and forgo ACGME since it takes place first, if they are interested in ortho, neurosurg, ENT, optha...

 

[crmellon]

I don't understand why this is an argument. It's common sense that ACGME will be preferential to MD students. I also find it ridiculous that DO students feel perhaps, "entitled" to an ACGME residency when (granted, maybe there isn't a high demand ) the AOA has a more stringent bias to allopathic students pursuing AOA residencies or AOA PD spots. Splinter in their eye, log in our own much? Lastly, the argument that extremely competitive residencies like NYU/MGH etc don't have a lot of DOs is self-evident, it's almost just as impossible for low-tier MD students to match there.

Again, who cares if someone waits to go to an MD school, or decides to go to a DO school. People choose things for a lot of reasons. I chose a DO school in my hometown, over an MD school for a multitude of different reasons. Assuming that it's always a black and white decision is ignorant.