DO: the underdog

Discover Your Odds of Getting into Medical School
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River Rat said:
possibly, but i tend to take things for face value. 20% isn't exactly that small of a proportion. Obeying the path of least resistance, it's easy to see why most DO students end up where they end up, in whatever specialties they end up in. We go where our opportunities are....and it's harder to go where there are more limited opportunities. It takes a special person to look at the hand they're given and feel like there's more out there. It takes a special person to look at a program that historically hasn't taken DO's and have the drive to be that first DO at that program. I don't know if I have an accurate figure for how many people I feel are capable of that (MD or DO.)

I'm not sure how it works for most DO schools, but there isn't a lot of directed opportunities for exploring your interests at mine. Research, getting experience with more competitive specialties (even during my third year.) We get bombarded with 6 months of primary care (family medicine, geriatrics, pediatrics, underserved care (family medicine again), internal medicine for two months.) That's 6 months! out of 9 months! Don't get me wrong, I'm not bitter, that is the whole DO mission statement, to provide a source of primary care physicians in underserved areas, so I knew what I was getting myself into. This wisdom I hope to impart is that for anyone that wants more, you're going to have to do a lot of work on your own to get the clinical experience you want to help you make the decisions you want. The lesson here is that whatever you're given, you always have the ability to make more opportunities for yourself (down time on a boring rotation? go hang out with the interventional radiologist, why not.) Extra work, but it is well worth it.
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The golden advice you are bestowing here is applicable to any med student (MD/DO). It takes a lot of *** to apply to NYU/Columbia/Cornell IM/ROAD residencies coming from any medical school. The thing you mentioned about the lack of 3rd year rotation opportunities/research is a real downer for you. But again, that's more reflective of the program you chose (my school has electives starting 3rd year and ample research fellowships). Based on your past posts it seems like you're shooting for Rads--I really hope you get/got into your number one choice man!

@OncoMD-you're going to make one hell of a physician one day. you obviously have the drive
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donkeykong1 said:
@OncoMD-you're going to make one hell of a physician one day. you obviously have the drive
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Thank you! I know I sounded neurotic in that post, but after reading discouraging responses on this thread, I kinda just blew up. It sucks how even residents put discouraging ideas in people's minds. I hope we all can make it far one day!
 
There is a distinct difference between being optimistic and rationalizing away facts.

As an early undergrad I went through every mental gymnastic in the book to tell myself I didn't need to pull up my 3.1 GPA to get into medical school. Luckily I knocked that crap off early enough... It is unreasonable to cite outliers and minorities when the discussion is about increasing ones odds or decreasing speedbumps along the way. It is much more beneficial to be realistic about any hardships that may be incurred because the alternative will likely leave some poor kids (yourself potentially included) blindsided.
 
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SpecterGT260 said:
There is a distinct difference between being optimistic and rationalizing away facts.

As an early undergrad I went through every mental gymnastic in the book to tell myself I didn't need to pull up my 3.1 GPA to get into medical school. Luckily I knocked that crap off early enough... It is unreasonable to cite outliers and minorities when the discussion is about increasing ones odds or decreasing speedbumps along the way. It is much more beneficial to be realistic about any hardships that may be incurred because the alternative will likely leave some poor kids (yourself potentially included) blindsided.
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Actually if you understood the overall message, I was acknowledging the hardships but I voiced that we should all have the desire to be able to fight through them. Does that mean that the hardships will end with us? No. Everything is a gradual process. If we just let hardships smile at us, are we just supposed to wave back and say hello? Get over it dude.

And I find it completely reasonable to cite situations where specific groups of people that face hardships but worked through them. Please do not potentially include me as a "poor kid" however way you mean it. I know exactly where I stand. Thank you.
 
i'm sure you do :xf:

This one time, I was too short to go on a rollercoaster. I left and worked really hard for a year to overcome this hardship. The next year I made it on just fine! I basically ended racism :thumbup:
 
SpecterGT260 said:
i'm sure you do :xf:
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I'm actually not sure that you're sure Nonetheless, how you feel about me is completely irrelevant (further less given your kind of attitude). Thanks though! :laugh:

SpecterGT260 said:
This one time, I was too short to go on a rollercoaster. I left and worked really hard for a year to overcome this hardship. The next year I made it on just fine! I basically ended racism :thumbup:
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Wow...the things you say...you're really a med student? Kinda scary that at this stage, you're still acting like a 5yr old. You must be bored. I'll just ignore your posts from now on.
 
OncoMD said:
I'm actually not sure that you're sure Nonetheless, how you feel about me is completely irrelevant (further less given your kind of attitude). Thanks though! :laugh:



Wow...the things you say...you're really a med student? Kinda scary that at this stage, you're still acting like a 5yr old. You must be bored. I'll just ignore your posts from now on.
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you are completely reluctant to see the inappropriateness and naivete in your statements so there isnt much left to do but have a little fun with it :eyebrow:

If too many kids reading this thread go into the application cycles and eventually the match with their pom-poms fluffed as you suggest we will be doing a significant disservice. This is not about "sticking it to the man". In civil rights, there were people that had opportunities denied to them because of situations outside of their control. That is not the case here (especially here... this thread is about the choice between waiting a year for MD or going straight DO....). To be denied or to incur a hardship because of a choice you have made is in no way shape and/or form similar to the struggle of a race of people to gain equal footing or to simply have access to opportunities. The hardship here comes because at specific bottlenecks, the desired qualifications were not met. This is true for DO and for lower tier MD (in most cases) so it stands completely to reason that someone in these situations will have to work harder to prove themselves. But again, success in this is not in any way like "sticking it to the man", nor are you railing against an oppressive system. You are just meeting the expectations laid out for you.... and those expectations are raised because of the alternative path you chose.

Somewhere along the line you went from OncoMD to Onco[DO] and I am curious what the trigger was.... your zeal here seems a little misplaced.

also, calling someone childish who is viewing you as a child carries no weight.... The fact that you think that statement will have any impact is pretty solid evidence for my point of view. you might as well have called me a "booger-face" (but please dont... I'm sensitive about that....) ;)
 
for anyone else in the thread who is still curious or if the major points have been drown out: if you want to apply DO instead of MD for any reason please don't let anyone stop you.

But go in understanding that the uphill battle faced by all med students will be a little steeper if you do. And as a DO applying to an MD-based system like the ACGME you really shouldnt expect it not to be. That is all there is to it. Nobody is saying you are incapable, but if you go in denying the added difficulty based on principle you will likely be unprepared for what happens :thumbup: We don't need any more un-matched docs than necessary, so using the info > denying it
 
Idk, just because you wait out a year doesnt mean you will get in. Sometimes a DO degree is a student's only chance at becoming a doctor.

Me personally? I do want to go to MD school over DO, but if DO school is the only medical school that accepts me, you best believe I'm taking that seat. I would be thankful for that seat and an opportunity to become a physician.

SpecterGT260 said:
for anyone else in the thread who is still curious or if the major points have been drown out: if you want to apply DO instead of MD for any reason please don't let anyone stop you.

But go in understanding that the uphill battle faced by all med students will be a little steeper if you do. And as a DO applying to an MD-based system like the ACGME you really shouldnt expect it not to be. That is all there is to it. Nobody is saying you are incapable, but if you go in denying the added difficulty based on principle you will likely be unprepared for what happens :thumbup: We don't need any more un-matched docs than necessary, so using the info > denying it
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yes, I agree. The post you quoted didnt say anything to the contrary.
 
As long as ACGME and AOA exist, ACGME residencies will always give preference to allopathic students. It's a no brainer, of course they would. Arguing otherwise is like complaining about instate tuition as an OOS. DOs should really be breathing down the AOAs neck to increase the quality and number of AOA residencies.
 
GypsyHummus said:
Idk, just because you wait out a year doesnt mean you will get in. Sometimes a DO degree is a student's only chance at becoming a doctor.

Me personally? I do want to go to MD school over DO, but if DO school is the only medical school that accepts me, you best believe I'm taking that seat. I would be thankful for that seat and an opportunity to become a physician.
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I have to agree with this. Look on the pre-allo forums where people are appyling for their 3rd or 4th year with like 3.0-3.4/35+ or even 3.5-3.6/30-31, and even people who have done decently in SMP's (3.5-3.6) with low 30s MCAT who on their 3rd or 4th try still only get into DO school. More and more very well-qualified applicants are having to turn to DO. Applying to MD schools truly is like throwing darts at a spinning wheel.
 
MrNovember said:
These threads almost always have the same theme. Some degree of talking down the DO path and defending it. Or vice versa. Look at this from a perspective outside of SDN-gunnerland. We are going to be doctors (possibly minus the arrogant/rigid few who limit their options due to their unwillingness to explore both pathways).

What these kind of debates usually end up looking like is someone arguing why they are a far superior student because they got a 99 on an exam while another student got a 97.

This thread should be closed.
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I agree. Tens of thousands of practicing DOs have graduated from DO schools and gone on to happy and successful careers without knowing this forum existed. Poor fools. :rolleyes:
 
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Well, how would someone go about getting the AOA to expand residencies?

crmellon said:
As long as ACGME and AOA exist, ACGME residencies will always give preference to allopathic students. It's a no brainer, of course they would. Arguing otherwise is like complaining about instate tuition as an OOS. DOs should really be breathing down the AOAs neck to increase the quality and number of AOA residencies.
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I doubt there are going to be any new residency options for either doctorate (MD/DO) unless they're funded.

The government funds most residencies.

So... lobby Congress? I would think this is something the AMA and the AOA could actually work together on, considering the potential shortages we're facing.
 
GimpGenius said:
I doubt there are going to be any new residency options for either doctorate (MD/DO) unless they're funded.

The government funds most residencies.

So... lobby Congress? I would think this is something the AMA and the AOA could actually work together on, considering the potential shortages we're facing.
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Truth, though eventually they'll have to. Gov't is all about "increasing the amount of physicians" and subsidizing medical school expansion, both right wing and left wing. But few voters, and even politicians realize that probably the most critical component of medical education is funded by Medicare. Honestly, I think the best possible solution is an AOA/ACGME merger for residencies. I know this will never happen, but it'd be cheaper, more efficient and less dumb.
 
Wow, that list is pretty good. Yay, AoA.
 
OncoMD said:
I'm actually not sure that you're sure Nonetheless, how you feel about me is completely irrelevant (further less given your kind of attitude). Thanks though! :laugh:



Wow...the things you say...you're really a med student? Kinda scary that at this stage, you're still acting like a 5yr old. You must be bored. I'll just ignore your posts from now on.
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you're taking this the wrong way. no one is doubting your ability, no one is trying to discourage you. what's going on is that we're trying to bring these issues to light so you won't be hearing about them for the very first time when you're well into your 3rd year of medical school. it's good that you're driven to succeed, but it's very important to have a healthy, realistic perspective so that you don't just float along, expecting that your best is good enough, because sometimes, it just won't be. This is entirely variable, again, based on your goals and aspirations. PM&R @ Harvard? Doable. Anesthesiology at JHU? Doable. Orthopedic Surgery at....anywhere? Unlikely. There's a reason why there are medical students, residents (did I see an attending post as well?) challenging you. Like I said, no one is disagreeing with your ability to succeed, just try to realize this as constructive advice, and use it to your advantage so that you make the right decisions when the time comes along in the future, based on the context of your own personal goals.
 
River Rat said:
you're taking this the wrong way. no one is doubting your ability, no one is trying to discourage you. what's going on is that we're trying to bring these issues to light so you won't be hearing about them for the very first time when you're well into your 3rd year of medical school. it's good that you're driven to succeed, but it's very important to have a healthy, realistic perspective so that you don't just float along, expecting that your best is good enough, because sometimes, it just won't be. This is entirely variable, again, based on your goals and aspirations. PM&R @ Harvard? Doable. Anesthesiology at JHU? Doable. Orthopedic Surgery at....anywhere? Unlikely. There's a reason why there are medical students, residents (did I see an attending post as well?) challenging you. Like I said, no one is disagreeing with your ability to succeed, just try to realize this as constructive advice, and use it to your advantage so that you make the right decisions when the time comes along in the future, based on the context of your own personal goals.
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I swear I said that.....
 
River Rat said:
woops, so you did. everyone carry on then.
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Lol my sarcasm didn't carry well in that one. I was attempting to be ironic about it because you were slightly nicer about it than I was :thumbup: basically kudos for making a good point in a good way. Maybe if we are lucky we can get this good cop/bad cop thing on lockdown
 
OncoMD said:
I have a wonderful feeling that by the time we embark on residency our position will be much better
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I think the AOA is finally starting to get its act together. The old guard is moving out, the new generation of pragmatic minded DOs are gaining power and they are starting to listen more and more to the concern of students.

Some things the AOA have changed recently: they made osteopathic CME much easier, osteopathic board certification/licensure is more straightforward, res.42 is much easier to get, COCA regulation is starting to require that all osteopathic schools make sure to maintain at least the number post-grad opportunities in their OPTI as graduates, AOA is meeting almost every month with the ACGME to discuss the recent fellowship proposal, bigger emphasis on research etc....
 
OncoMD said:
I have a wonderful feeling that by the time we embark on residency our position will be much better
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Dramatic Irony- the contrast between what the character and the audience knows
 
Also, the number of exclamation points and smileys in a post are inversely proportional to the depth and intellegence of the post.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Dramatic Irony- the contrast between what the character and the audience knows
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I wouldn't really say it's dramatic irony since the audience (yourself in this case as the spectator) really can't know what is going to happen 4-5 years from now. By then your thoughts will most likely seem like a sort of anachronism.
 
Only marginally worse (yet probably more defensible) than arbitrary pepsquad cheer driving someone to take ON the world... You seem quite comfortable arguing with people who have simply lived through more of it than you have whenever it satisfies your preconceived notions.....

I only say so because your input here seems to suggest you thought we were actually contradicting instatewaiter for that comment. This would be the dramatic irony he mentioned earlier....
 
SpecterGT260 said:
Only marginally worse (yet probably more defensible) than arbitrary pepsquad cheer driving someone to take ON the world... You seem quite comfortable arguing with people who have simply lived through more of it than you have whenever it satisfies your preconceived notions.....

I only say so because your input here seems to suggest you thought we were actually contradicting instatewaiter for that comment. This would be the dramatic irony he mentioned earlier....
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I award you five internets.
 
c'est vraiment stupide. mettre fin à cette s'il vous plaît
 
People think I was playing around when I said I would ignore their comments...and they continue to try...I guess some people can't read well. :laugh:
 
OncoMD said:
Donkey, will you please tell specter we are fighting and I cannot hear him?
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Some people thought you also said you wouldn't tolerate "tones". Who we talkin about? :)

The unfortunate thing is the vanity here.... I could be petty and point out that this is technically responding. I had younger brothers, I know how this game goes.... Or I could just point out that getting a rise out of you is of little real consequence and any reply you may get is for the benefit of any lurking pre med who may succumb to your thinking
 
SpecterGT260 said:
Some people thought you also said you wouldn't tolerate "tones". Who we talkin about? :)

The unfortunate thing is the vanity here.... I could be petty and point out that this is technically responding. I had younger brothers, I know how this game goes.... Or I could just point out that getting a rise out of you is of little real consequence and any reply you may get is for the benefit of any lurking pre med who may succumb to your thinking
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so now that i have broken out my french vibe.....how should i put this. yo specter onco here thinks that ur being a Catdoucheus :smuggrin:...but i think all of us including Instatewaiter resident extraordinaire can agree that this thread has officially become a drama show
 
I am not unaware ;). We can let it die if it dies I suppose
 
GimpGenius said:
Well then... I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing those out.

I'll now be gunning for the Derm residency in Houston. :p

Getting back on topic... I wouldn't worry too much about the snide remarks from SDN posters. Enjoy what you're doing, do the best you can for your future patients, and when someone says "you're an underdog," tell them "#$%@ you, I'm a physician.) ;)
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Definitely! It's all about staying positive and being proud of your hard work.
 
I love how everyone glossed over cabinbuilder's 2 posts XDD when in fact her words as a DO attending carry a lot more weight than what most of you are saying.
 
ToldYouSo said:
I love how everyone glossed over cabinbuilder's 2 posts XDD when in fact her words as a DO attending carry a lot more weight than what most of you are saying.
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And I love how you assumed we glossed over it, when in all likelihood we're just being neurotic and overly optimistic pre-meds. I assure you I don't know anything about matching, residency, and the like; and I only know enough about medicine to be dangerous.

But most importantly, I'm here for the postcount. ;)
 
GimpGenius said:
Well then... I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing those out.

I'll now be gunning for the Derm residency in Houston. :p

Getting back on topic... I wouldn't worry too much about the snide remarks from SDN posters. Enjoy what you're doing, do the best you can for your future patients, and when someone says "you're an underdog," tell them "#$%@ you, I'm a physician.) ;)
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I saw that Derm residency in Houston as well. It'd be nice to come back home for residency... but I'm not sure if Derm is what I want to do.

And I heard that only beautiful people can do derm. That disqualifies me, since the green shell might turn some heads...
 
By the way... I just read through the last 2 pages of this thread and got some good laughs. SpecterGT, for laying down some realism, I give you this delicious cupcake. You can split it with RiverRat.

anti-cupcake.jpg
 
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