I'd like to confirm what everybody has said. A lot of those openings you see on company websites have already someone lined up. Besides, job openings aren't the only indicator of the job market. Take a closer look and see which ones are actually full time position. Also it's hard to say how many applicants there are for each posting. I've heard could be well over 40 applicants for one position... I wouldn't be surprised seeing the rising amount of new grads these recent years
*DO YOU UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE NO JOBS WAITING?*
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I'd like to confirm what everybody has said. A lot of those openings you see on company websites have already someone lined up. Besides, job openings aren't the only indicator of the job market. Take a closer look and see which ones are actually full time position. Also it's hard to say how many applicants there are for each posting. I've heard could be well over 40 applicants for one position... I wouldn't be surprised seeing the rising amount of new grads these recent years
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I'd say they are, in fact, happening - except NOT in the way all those who drum them up intended. It's just like vaccinations - something that gets added to the pharmacist's plate without ultimately changing how we are paid or treated by the chain. I fail to see why anyone should be happy to do more work with less help for the same or lesser amount of pay. Retail is the proverbial pie-eating contest where the first-place prize is more pie.
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Is the negativity this warranted? Prospective students, research job opportunities in your area to get a feel for the market. Still, I don't think there are many pharmacists struggling to find employment yet.
It really is that bad. Some classes have as much as 50% of their graduates awaiting a job offer. Those who are employed are not getting full time hours.
Ah! The doom and gloom of pharmacy again lol. It’s undeniable that the population is increasing and more and more medications are being prescribed than ever before. The profession isnt going anywhere, PERIOD! Yeah it’s due for some changes on a corporate level; but that doesn’t mean we’re all going to be banished out of a job. The law mandates a PharmD to dispense and as such a pharmD degree will always be needed. Atleast pharmacist jobs can’t be outsourced to some offshore country like India like it is currently with the computer jobs!
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Did someone say that pharmacy is doom and gloom? Because that is correct.
As to your comment about pharmacist jobs not being outsourced overseas... we’re already seeing signs of things moving in this direction. Check out the future of pharmacy: ‘Remote’ Pharmacies Plan Gets Senate OK
If folks are complaining about how bad it is for retail pharmacist hours to get cut from 40 to 24-32 hours now, then y’all are in for a rude awakening when 10 years from now pharmacy pivots into either a fully mail order-based business (with Amazon coming into the marketplace), or, in the case of this article, the brick-and-mortar pharmacies transforming into tech-run shops where 1 virtual pharmacist would verify prescriptions for 5 pharmacies.
I can already see the big retail chains licking their chops at this— imagine how much money you could save if you employed 1 pharmacist at $70k to oversee 5 pharmacies.
All that needs to happen to ignite this process is a new law/regulation that passes. At that point, once “remote verification” becomes mainstream, it will not be very far-fetched to think that “overseas verification” will then be the next big thing.
Maybe not outsourced offshore but definitely outsourced to other facilities with remote verification. There has already been massive hospital layoffs partly due to this. Many health systems are moving towards remote verification and a lot of retail pharmacies are or have already implemented shared queue. This means less jobs needed overall.
I think you're right, there are always going to be pharmacists around but you're wrong saying we're not going to be all banished out of a job. Okay maybe not all of us, but most of us will. I predict a decrease in pharmacist demand (lower than BLS projections) due to improved technology and corporation mergers. Meanwhile the supply is still ever increasing which IMO is hugely irresponsible considering the current job market trend.
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LOL I love how all you pre-pharm people are in denial about jobs. The jobs shortage IS REAL. Don't let the schools lie to you. By the time you guys graduate, a PGY-1 will be mandatory to verify prescriptions for Walgreens in places like Stanley, ND. Wanna work in a major urban area? That's a PGY-2 for you! Wanna work in a hospital? PGY-3 for you! Wanna work in any hospital specialty? PGY-4 for you!
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I agree with a few ideas on this statement, but I disagree with some others. This is not to generate a doom-and-gloom thread, but to state facts that pre-pharmacy students (and some, not all, recent PharmD graduates) still refuse to listen to.
The number of medications is increasing at an alarming rate (no question); furthermore, there are services available that are reimbursable in certain states and with collaborative practice agreements by "clinical pharmacists" and professors. The Pharmacy Demand Indicator (PDI) on Manpower.com, which used to be called the Aggregate Demand Index (ADI), uses the scripts and the value of those scripts as a determination for value. Obviously, decisions made based on that do not totally indicate market or workforce trends, but it does portray retail pharmacy and was cited in Daniel Brown's article regarding the pharmacy bubble.
For today's pharmacists, and you can correct me if I am wrong, the value determination is based on how well a pharmacist can advocate for their utility versus a "robot" that can pump out more scripts than an in-person registered pharmacist (RPh) or even one that works from home. Finding an alternative measure for value is critical for maintaining our profession, hence the need for provider status...the latter being nothing more than a pipe dream.
Source: PDI
One requires a pharmacist license to dispense medications and provide clinical services in the first place. Any State Board of Pharmacy will have laws stating this. If one is not granted licensure for reasons the State Board of Pharmacy decides (mental health, physical health, recent hospitalization, lack of CE credits met due to lower hours and not being able to pay for the training, etcetera), alternative options must be available and attainable to have maximum utility of the PharmD degree. I know plenty of pharmacists who pursued medical writing, research, regulatory affairs, finance, HEOR, outcomes reporting, adverse event reporting, Global Marketing, and other industry-related disciplines from my time in pharmacy school and from talking with them post-graduation. However, they all had to make sacrifices; some had to maintain their RPh (and their job, as a retail or other pharmacist) just in case the industry "Unicorn" job did not pan out. You do not need a PhD to do research only, but you do need publications and a strong focus to pursue research in a specified area and be able to justify that focus with demonstrated accomplishments.
If provider status is approved nationally (BIG IF), pharmacists will be obligated to pursue some type of additional training to maintain their right to practice (PGY-X, BCXP, or additional certificates and certifications). If Registered/Licensed Pharmacists cannot land a job (side gig, full-time pharmacist, part-time pharmacist, per-diem pharmacist, contract work of some type, bartender, research lab technician, etcetera), they cannot pay for that training. PERIOD, and will be brought before the Board! Furthermore, just because pharmacy may have its name on the Medicare Part B list does not necessarily guarantee that one pharmacist will get paid for said service. There must be some determination of value involved: clinical services provided, number of patients seen versus number of patients missing appointments, patients reaching a certain A1C level, percentage patients not undergoing bypass surgery due to a medical/pharmaceutical intervention... STAR standards usually come to my mind as one value measure but there are others. If the pharmacist cannot meet those quality patient outcomes because patients won't do what they are supposed to do, the pharmacist is still liable as are the physicians that see the patient (JOINT RESPONSIBILITY, which is law in FL). Do we have the capacity to handle that kind of stress when patient outcomes dictate solely how we get paid without a hybrid system for dispensing as a fallback option? Do we even have the resources as a government to take care of those people or a psychological support group/system in retail pharmacy that does not add more work on them versus the residents that send it to pharmacists that are not residency-trained? I say no we do not.
We will be fighting with other healthcare providers to assert our value over providers that are on the same list (ARNPs, NPs, nurses, MD/DO physicians, Physician Assistants, and all others that have been providing such services for years). Those members are successful in meeting those outcomes because they, get this, EARNED their spot on the Medicare Part B list. They did this by establishing standards of practice, measuring quality outcomes using statistics and specific measures of care, and by providing those outcomes consistently. Can all licensed/registered pharmacists work on that level given their current scope of practice and lack of lobbying skills?
Even if our population increases (we have 76 million retirees and increasing), the pharmacists hired will be doing all the work while the rest of us seek alternative careers that either utilize the PharmD or give up pharmacy altogether. Those RPhs that are not residency-trained and work in retail are obligated to say "Yes" to every project that comes along and if they say "no," there is always a new graduate that is eager enough to take our job from us. I am not quite aware of the outsourcing for computer jobs so I would like more detail on that option. Thank you to those that provided some information. Timbo's prediction is already true and is already happening.
We need alternatives for PharmD graduates that do not have jobs as pharmacists and we need them FAST! Many threads have been posted regarding this issue already and there are PharmDs posting those options as well. I posted a few options on one of the threads if you are interested in seeking them.
Disclaimer: Not everybody earns these alternative positions, but we have the opportunity to apply.
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2018 is the "turning point". Was predicted by some Doctor of pharmacy professor at Palm Beach Atlantic in 2012. Turns out his predictions so far are alarmingly on the mark. Within the next 5 years this profession will slowly decay further. I myself am getting out of anything to do with "retail" "corporate" or "pharmacy" in the job title. It's just too unstable to bank your family, house, bills...etc. on. I Would rather shovel dung for a few bucks and some exercise instead. Not too many metrics there to meet huh? LOL.....
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For information purposes only:
John's Hopkins already has a program for a two-year non-traditional PGY1 in Pharmacotherapy; however, the applicant must be working as a pharmacist within their health system for at least 1 year to be eligible to apply. That was one of the requirements when I participated in Phase II at ASHP MidYear (2017-2018 application period). Such hybrid programs involve clinical duties in addition to a staffing component while working 40 hours per week. Other hospitals with similar programs have similar requirements. One of the many pitfalls of the Phase II Match for ASHP: students are eligible to apply through Phase II but the applicant is excluded as a student as the vast majority (90% or more) of pharmacy students do not have that experience going in. The applicant may have some leverage if that person had a rotation through the said health system and performed stellar, but that's about it.
It is not just the training requirements to concern ourselves with. It is the unrealistic requirements: brand-name organizations want brand-name graduates. Our pharmacy organizational structure in addition to the medical education model is structured for residents, not the general pharmacist or the alternative career seeker. It's that simple.
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Look at the end of the day we all gotta eat, if this profession cant allow you to work comfortably, and care for your family without constant fear of being let go, down sized, or whatever....its a dead end profession. The money is dwindling down...end of story.
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^I honestly got lucky in phase II, only applied for phase II, was a middle
Yeah I got lucky and matched in phase II even though I never did phase I. I just ran into the right people. In retrospect, I’m filled with regret about going down this road. Not much I can do about it now though.
Yeah I got lucky and matched in phase II even though I never did phase I. I just ran into the right people. In retrospect, I’m filled with regret about going down this road. Not much I can do about it now though.
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“But I am a different student, I shine!” Lol
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As a pharmacy manager I can confirm the doom and gloom. I have talked to some new grads and many of their peers have not found a job. My boss (district manager in charge of hiring for a dozen or so pharmacies) says new grads are blowing up his email looking for jobs.
We are in a rural area, about as undesirable as it gets, where until recently they were practically begging pharmacists to come work for them. One thing that will come up in an interview is why would you ever want to live here? If you have no connection to the area, they will know that the true answer is "I'm desperate for a job, and I will transfer out at the first opportunity," and you will not be preferred over someone from, if not the town, at least the region, so don't think a willingness to relocate necessarily saves you.
As for pharmacists getting provider status, in my state pharmacists already have provider status (with some additional training), but there are not many who are actually working as providers. NPs and PAs work for less, so why would anyone hire a pharmacist to do what they can already do? For that to change, you would need the salary of pharmacists to drop significantly, and then overcome a lot of institutional inertia. And this has to happen in not much more than 4 years to do you any good if you are prepharm now.
We are in a rural area, about as undesirable as it gets, where until recently they were practically begging pharmacists to come work for them. One thing that will come up in an interview is why would you ever want to live here? If you have no connection to the area, they will know that the true answer is "I'm desperate for a job, and I will transfer out at the first opportunity," and you will not be preferred over someone from, if not the town, at least the region, so don't think a willingness to relocate necessarily saves you.
As for pharmacists getting provider status, in my state pharmacists already have provider status (with some additional training), but there are not many who are actually working as providers. NPs and PAs work for less, so why would anyone hire a pharmacist to do what they can already do? For that to change, you would need the salary of pharmacists to drop significantly, and then overcome a lot of institutional inertia. And this has to happen in not much more than 4 years to do you any good if you are prepharm now.
There are a lot of artists and teachers who forego a comfortable life so that they can pursue their passions.
As for a lot of the pre-pharms? They think that working retail or anywhere over an hour from their desired saturated city is too much.
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It makes me laugh when I hear most students saying they won't work retail. Like dude don't 2/3 of pharmacist practice in retail, and a vast majority of the rest are in hospital?? You literally have less than a 10% chance of not working some form of retail. Out of all the annual grads, that's like 1000 grades out of ~10K. What makes you think you're that lucky/special?
Everyone wants to be the unicorn that finds that magic not retail position without a residency. Let me just say, it's no fun going to a job you love if every time there's a meeting or your phone rings, you're terrified that this is it- the jig is up. My company is currently mid merger and we're all on edge. I graduated in 2017 & a good chunk (15-30%) of my class is under or unemployed, and this is from a pre-1995 school. I committed to this career in 2008, but pretty much anyone who jumped on the wagon 2012 & on is gambling on a lot of things that are seriously unlikely
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Because I work harder, am smarter, better at networking and am better at public speaking than my classmates who I size up as my competition. Never mind that my classmates all got in with 2.0 GPA’s. So if I’m in the top 5% of my class, then the offers should come piling in, right?
I work in a hospital and we need PRN work all the time. Friday nights, Saturday and Sunday evenings. Took us a while to fill our M-F 230p-11 shift for a while and our Fri, Sat Sun dude took more than a year of that shift to creep into a more "normal" schedule. And he wasn't a new grad without experience!
Beware, prepharmers. If you want to do it, live in your car and do it as cheaply as possible. I graduated in 2013 and while I borrowed $1k in living expenses a month (school months only) and worked summers FT and even during the semester and went to a state school my first payment of $1653.78 went to a balance of $142k. Trying to make that payment without steady hours will be tough.
Beware, prepharmers. If you want to do it, live in your car and do it as cheaply as possible. I graduated in 2013 and while I borrowed $1k in living expenses a month (school months only) and worked summers FT and even during the semester and went to a state school my first payment of $1653.78 went to a balance of $142k. Trying to make that payment without steady hours will be tough.
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You speaketh the truth. I remember some of my fellow classmates bragging about how they got non-retail jobs with no residency. 5-7 years later, guess what has happened to these jobs? I've seen managed care companies lose contracts or go out of business, a mail-order company get bought out by CVS followed up by layoffs, long-term care initiate layoffs before a buyout, compounding pharmacists struggle with ownership changes, and home infusion (Coram) get bought out by CVS. These kind of jobs are certainly less stable. So retail definitely isn't the only sector that has gotten hit. Ambulatory pharmacists are also in the cross-hairs as they make more for their services than the NPs and PAs who can actually bill for services.
Its a challenging world out there for all businesses. But taking this kind of debt for pharmacy right now is pretty crazy.
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All the employers will swooooooonnnnnn
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Just want to confirm how bad it is. When I was a PharmD student, I always thought that it’s normal to compete for jobs. I just have work hard and be presistant. I had 3 offers before I graduated in 2016, none in the locations I wanted. Still, it wasn’t too bad. Entering 2018, I just keep seeing these poor candidates getting turned down for small reasons... there are a LOT of over qualified candidates out there for the same position, sometimes luck is all they need. I worked at a rural town in NC with a population of 20k. 25+ people applied to this hospital position with below average pay. Networking didn’t matter, a 2 year residency didn’t matter either... because they hired someone from the past...
It might be too late for those who have already started pharmacy school. It’s doable for those who are passionate about pharmacy, in fact, we need more of you guys! However, it should be avoided for everyone else.
It might be too late for those who have already started pharmacy school. It’s doable for those who are passionate about pharmacy, in fact, we need more of you guys! However, it should be avoided for everyone else.
IMO if you're P1, maybe even P2 it may still be the financially wise decision to drop out and pursue something else. I've had classmates who did so definitely not unheard of.
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Those postings in WAGs are not accurate. Those are not real openings. How do I know? I used to work for WAGs and quit 2 months ago. My position was a void and they posted an opening. There were 10 floaters internally competing for my ex-position. I'm friends with the floater that finally got my position and she said the DM already decided. Legally and to comply with company policy he had to post that position even though she was guaranteed the job.
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Well, they gave me 70/hr for a manager position at one of the worst stores you could hope for. Since i am geographically isolated, you cant just move around if you want, so im stuck. My DM knows he can hire a new grad for 50/hr, much less PTO than the 4 weeks they give me, and grind them out. The more i read and go over the numbers, the more i realize I have to choose another life option. I simply cannot do this retail thing anymore. And since hospital wont touch me due to lack of experience or residency (what a joke), I'm out of the game. im 39, exhausted, and just want some peace in my life. I feel i will never get this in retail pharmacy. I'm out, over, and done. You can have my spot, as long as it lasts.
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Seriously? That list appears to be a random listing of jobs that have absolutely nothing to do with a PharmD. The job list is intended for foreign pharmacists who aren't licensed to work as a pharmacist in the US. That is a completely different situation from a US trained PharmD.
Like Certified Nursing Assistant is on the list. The PharmD would have to go back to school to get the required training to be a CNA....and having a PharmD will *not* make it more likely to be accepted in to CNA school or to get an actual job as a CNA. In fact, it will probably make it less likely....if I were hiring a CNA, I would be very suspicious of a pharmacist applying for the job. And of course, Pharmacy Technician is on the list.....no one will hire a PharmD to work as a PT, unless it's a short term situation where the PharmD requires intern hours in order to get licensed.
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Talk to an AMEDD recruiter. You should be able to do a DD 368 - aka conditional release from active duty - and go back to serving once you complete your education. I have heard the regulations have changed to allow us to keep our current rank if we are officers, but it used to be that you rebooted as a 2LT and then started as a boot captain after graduation. You have to attend AMEDD BOLC even if you are post CCC.
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A pharmacist straightened out my sisters pain medications after she broke her back as a military police officer in a service connected accident. She is literally on a first name basis with Ericka, but can't tell me who her PCM is through the VA. The military and VA systems are making strides in clinical services and consultation services provided by pharmacists. I'm sorry for your difficulties and I certainly do not wish to make light of your situation, but there are other options out there. You are still young enough to join the Air Force (cut off is 42) go talk to a medical recruiter and go get a residency and hospital experience.
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DD 368 would first need to be coupled with a DA 4187 endorsing the conditional release. Of which, if the MOS is understrengthed (sigh...) army likes to take its sweet time for any allotment and defer a shortage specialty.
However, it’d just be easier doing my active duty time then finish my IRR obligation while in school. Then I’d just be paid as an O3E with 8 yrs service.
Of course, I can’t consider any of this unless I pass an appealment out of my final medical evaluation phase. Tis’ the military culture...
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Which reminds me: @giga , if my appealment fails and I get an honorable medical discharge from the armed services, can I or can I not apply for U.S. Public Health Service upon earning my pharmD in 3 years time? It’s not a permanent disability either and USPHS commission corps is considered a non-military uniformed service:
https://www.usphs.gov/questionsanswers/overview.aspx
This gives me hope, but curious what your thoughts are.
If yes, I’ll PM you before I hijack this thread
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70 is good for manager, I assume cost of living is probably low in isolated Colorado. Unless your DM has it out for you at WM, may as well stay. No new graduate that is COMPETENT will manage a WM for 50. Also I am unsure a DM can get regional approval for such a low wage. Surely someone at HR has to ask "is this the type of applicant we want as a manager? someone who will work for this low?"
I will say Colorado seems nice. Is the MPJE/lic hard process?
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Even though USPHS isn't under DoD and has a different mission than the Armed Forces, they attempt to have parity with DoD medical accession standards. In fact, USPHS recently started requiring all applicants to go through DoDMERB. You can find the USPHS medical accession standards here, which are pretty much a copy and paste of DoD Instruction 6130.03. From my understanding USPHS medical affairs is pretty strict about granting medical waivers, and with the surplus of pharmacists these days, I doubt they would grant you a medical waiver if you have a disqualifying condition.
So, unfortunately, I would predict you would have a challenging time getting medical clearance. Although I'm a strong believer that being told no is an opportunity to ask in a different way, and that you never know what will happen until you apply, and if disqualified, go through the appeal process.
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Yea that’s directly hand-n-hand with DOD standpoint(s)(which..I figured it would). Looks like the closest thing would be the VA and being a civilian again.
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I really wish I had better news for you... I know how meaningful it is to wear the uniform, and am grateful to be able to serve. I would miss it a lot if I had to separate against my will. But yeah, there are other ways to serve, and working at the VA is a solid option.
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You shouldn't need a 4187. I'm currently an S1...I was under the impression that it needed to be signed by the first O-7/8 or flag officer in your chain of command, thus your packet has to go through the G-1, HRC, etc. I've done GRADSO packets for cadet command which usually have some other requirements, so I am not sure if they need the 11 other things that typically go in that for a prior-service guy.
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It's a totally solid option. The VA pharmacy is doing awesome stuff with behavioral health and pain management, not to mention some of the pharmacists at the actual military treatment facilities that are civilians are getting trained in acupuncture. The downside is that starting salary at certain places is $89K per year, but you do get a retirement. Hell, if you are willing to work on the reservation Indian Services is desperate for pharmacists that will serve in rural areas. Again, starting pay isn't awesome - However - you get a retirement at the end of 20 from federal service and the job security is very good compared to CVS/WAGS.
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Have you actually shoveled dung? I have and it's not great.
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ehhh. a little more difficult than some states. They required me to pass the MPJE within 90 days i believe? of my application being finalized. You had to fill out and PAY 85 bucks for something most other states font require just to get the process going. Well, hopefully your right about the wages for managers, well see. As far as i can tell, they are cutting salaries across the board.
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The economy cannot afford to pay another class of "Providers" anyway. The medical system is nearly broke. And, We would all leave retail to open up private practices (or i would anyway). Monitoring INR, Drug levels, Blood levels, there are all sorts of stuff we CAN do, we just don't get PAID for it.....lol.................. and never will.
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Yeah a pioneer? who is in 250,000 debt and making 35,000 a year? your in pre-pharm? oh man.... i thought you were at least a few years out. Listen carefully, know matter what propaganda they are throwing at you, remember the bottom line. This is about money in the end. If you dont have/make enough, your in a world of hurt. no matter how passionate, enthusiastic, motivated, or dedicated you are to the profession. I understand you want to continue what you started, i was in that boat too (the field was booming however), things have changed since 2003 when i started pre-pharm or even 2008 when i started pharm school. so I am NOT TRYING TO SCARE YOU. look around for yourself. determine if the end result is worth the investment, then make a well informed decision, if you dont trust everyone on this forum talking to you.
As a 2018 grad i completely agree with this post. If you are not hard core passionate about the profession, i recommend you choose something else. It's getting worse out there and job security is something you have to worry about in many fields. I was and am still passionate and love pharmacy; however, knowing what i know now, i would've thought twice about it honestly and perhaps done something else. I just got licensed a a month and a half ago and so far I am only working part time/as needed at an independent and that's only because I have known the owner for years. I interned at a Walgreens during school but the area I'm in is so saturated so they basically had to let me go
May I ask where's your location? thanks.
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What i'm actually saying is it does not matter how "passionate" someone is for pharmacy. If it costs 200K average to practice and you are making very little (which a passionate person would not mind right?) there is no quality of life now...you are indebted miserably to a profession that turned on you. I am VERY passionate, and dedicated to retail pharmacy. I have been a tech since 1997 and pharm since 2012. I'm real good at what i do, get along well in the workplace with staff and patients, have a good relationship with my boss. That said, I hate what i do now, and see no need to continue subjecting myself and sacrificing the last bit of youth and vitality for this anymore. The scales have tipped due to many factors, and i think we ALL know what they are. I am milking this last manager spot at WM for a bit and will quit when cornered. Believe me, my DM wants to cut wages in his district badly. He will come for me eventually.
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874700
I agree with you especially in California I've seen many opening especially at CVS.
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Yup, that’s where I’m seeing them interview for at career fairs. Who knows if that will still be there in 4 years tho. Plus passing the cpje isn’t exactly easy
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Please knock it off, this field is dead. It's not even just pharmacy. Its ANYTHING retail or corporate. And im not joining the Air force. Talk to me about this comment in 5 years and then we shall see......
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- Nov 15, 2016
- Messages
- 1,183
- Reaction score
- 912
I really am tired of the gloom and doom talk, however you cant deny reality. It's happening right now in front of us. I feel angry, disillusioned, frustrated, Betrayed, Horn-swaggled, swashbuckled, and everything else we all feel ..... lol swashbuckled....i like that one.
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Did you try yo apply out of state? Also, did you have a pharmacy experience before you became an intern?
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2016
- Messages
- 231
- Reaction score
- 123
I have disabled kid, I'm currently deployed, and I will be heading back to the Middle East 12 months after I get back in February 2019. ALL of my career options right now are less than perfect. I am interested in how I make this work. What I think I am hearing you say is get a PhD, provider status, and work on my customer service Spanish.
