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*DO YOU UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE NO JOBS WAITING?*

Discussion in 'Pre-Pharmacy' started by sozetone, Sep 1, 2018.

  1. sozetone

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    Guys and Gals of Class whatever year you intend to enter the field of pharmacy:

    DO YOU COMPREHEND THAT THIS FIELD HAS DIED?

    DO YOU UNDERSTAND YOU WILL NOT MAKE LOTS OF MONEY (IF ANY AT ALL)?

    DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHATS HAPPENING IN THE WORLD OF PHARMACY AT ALL?

    get out now! pharmacists are already roaming the country to find jobs. I myself had to move from florida to colorado to take a crappy job, which will soon be extinct.

    DO NOT THINK THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN TO YOU.

    stop wasting your money, time, and efforts on a field with no rewards. There is no pot of gold at the end of this phony rainbow. I PROMISE YOU!

    you were warned....
     
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  3. Rybko90

    2+ Year Member

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    2018 grad here, can confirm.
    Salaries going down, new offers past September from big chains are down to $50 an hour from $60 an hour last year. Hours cut across big chains. No way to predict what the bottom will be.

    Edit: I should say, you will only have to worry about that if you actually have a job offer. A lot of people have 150k in debt, without a job.

    As for clinical/residency... As of 2018, there are enough residency positions to match about 54% of residency applicants. And I want to emphasize that residency applicants are usually the best students anyway. It's a madhouse out there. Out of every class, a small percentage ends up matching. The rest are left to fend for the scraps in the "job market."

    This is the outlook in 2018. It's already way worse than it was two years ago. With more and more pharmacy schools, I can't even imagine what it's going to be like in 2022.
     
    #2 Rybko90, Sep 1, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
  4. JamesPharmD

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    All pharmacy schools last year extended the applications till June due to low amount of applications apply. Low applications due to job market saturation and people don't want wasting time and money on student loan. But there are people still apply to pharmacy school because they want to earn the title of "doctor" even though we are not a doctor and hopefully, landing a job after graduation

    Anyone have 2nd job or get another degree outside pharmacy?
     
    #3 JamesPharmD, Sep 1, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
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  5. stoichiometrist

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    PharmDs are being sold at $40k+/year x 4 years to those with a 2.2 GPA, single digit PCAT, and no work experience who can cough up that money via family or non-dischargeable student loans. Pharmacy has no moat to defend itself from hordes of students wanting to get into the profession.

    Pre-pharms, by the time you graduate the castle will have already been burned to the ground with nothing left for you.
     
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  6. VA77

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    You cannot tell the snowflakes anything. They cannot wait to sign those unsubed loans.
     
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  7. allantois

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    I go to a school with a reputable pharmacy program, but I am not in the pharmacy program. I got an email from the School of Pharmacy about 1 month prior to starting my own program, encouraging me to apply for admissions to start that following month - no PCAT, nothing required.
     
  8. JamesPharmD

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    Pharmacy schools are depressed need students to apply. It's a business and too many competition.
     
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  9. BC_89

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    I’d give anything if the army would just do a green-to-gold pharmD program like nursing / PA / MD-DO routes. Even with my current 100% coverage and no debt opportunity I run the risk of leaving the service short term (or even reserves). if I attend I don’t wanna lose the opportunity of “getting out” of military only for them to do a cut-back and not take me back in....I’d love to remain in a commissioned service but NOT any civilian service....Until I feel more confident in remaining in with my medical records being updated I have to take a pass..

    If I can’t see myself doing it outside of the service, I shouldn’t try at this time.
     
    #8 BC_89, Sep 1, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
  10. Doktor_dud3

    Doktor_dud3 CPhT, Pre-Pharmacy

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    Boo Hoo, the sky is falling. The horse is dead, next.
     
  11. DruggieDoRight

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    Over half my class didn't have jobs after school... What makes you guys think it will be different by 2022/2023?
     
  12. stoichiometrist

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    Most people go into pharmacy thinking that either saturation doesn't exist or that saturation will not affect them as severely as they think due to their perceived talent, work ethic, and networking skills that will make employers fawn over them. Keep in mind that you ARE replaceable and will be affected negatively by saturation no matter how hard you work, how talented you think you are, or how well connected you think you are.

    Exception is if you're already in upper management of a big corporate chain who makes big bonuses off the flood of desperate new grads willing to work for reduced pay.
     
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  13. Pharmachemist_SS

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    The field of pharmacy is going to undergo an overhaul in the next 10-20 years. I plan to be a part of that change and I completely anticipate all retail pharmacies to be "dead" by then. Yes, the sky is falling if you go into pharmacy and pretend that retail pharmacy will have a solid market in the future. Or, you can be aware that the field is still young and will be changing. Pharmacists are gaining provider status and will be integrated more and more with healthcare teams. Pharmaceutical companies aren't going anywhere for now either, so go the research route instead if you want. Retail is becoming a dead-end career path, so go other directions that the PharmD will allow you to instead of complaining.
     
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  14. allantois

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    The market for providers is saturated as it is without pharmacists in it.
     
  15. stoichiometrist

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    Pharmacy as a profession is 100+ years old. The reality is that the idea of provider status has been sold for the last 2-3 decades; we have been told there is going to be an "overhaul" of the profession since then. Retail still makes up about 70% of all jobs and has always done so.

    When the cuts in retail continue there will be 5,000 pharmacists fighting for every industry position instead of 1,000.

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. DruggieDoRight

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    It's so weird to think that 4 years ago I thought/said the exact same thing...
     
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  17. Jbrl

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    Don't count on provider status as a silver bullet. We've tried for decades to reverse choices made by our predecessors that limited pharmacist scope of practice. NPs and PAs have already cemented their spot as the go-to mid-level providers in clinics and hospitals, and their organizations are far more aggressive in their lobbying efforts than ours. And if provider status does happen, expect all the major chains to capitalize by adding more metrics while cutting staff to improve their bottom line for shareholders. Because we have little leverage, the benefits don't accrue to us.

    The only people I would recommend pharmacy to are those who have worked in a retail pharmacy >6 months and like doing it, can come out with debt <100k and who are also OK with a risk-adjusted salary of $60k/year (assuming $45/hr base, 32hr work week, 20% chance of unemployment). That would be the typical outcome for a graduate.
     
    #16 Jbrl, Sep 3, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  18. BigBoss

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    It’s almost sad how gullible you are.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  19. Gombrich12

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    I don't think it matters what you say to the pre-pharmacy students, the people applying now have very few options. They simply aren't at the same level as most us that were in school in the early to mid 2000s.
     
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  20. Modest_anteater

    Modest_anteater Austin, Texas, USA.

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    It will be different. MUCH WORSE. KEK. Student loan collector should be in demand!
     
  21. Modest_anteater

    Modest_anteater Austin, Texas, USA.

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    It's too late for provider status. NPs and PAs already ate that lunch over the last ten years. There is nothing left there for pharmacists. Also for pharmaceutical company's they higher PhDs. You know, non-morons that can actually MAKE new drugs. Theye don't hire that many pharmacists at all.
     
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  22. sozetone

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    Spoken like a true, brainwashed new graduate. This U.S economy could not afford provider status. You ever consider that? It's an already broken, nearing bankrupt medical system. You think the economy can afford to take on paying a bunch of pharmacists? You think medicare part D plans and medicaid (who are already CUTTING costs) will let you bill them directly? and WANT to pay you? they are going broke!
     
  23. quickpic007

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    Whats the pay up in CO???
     
  24. DagS132

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    im not going to lie. This is making me really depressed. I am about to make a serious change in my life if I decide I don't want to go to pharmacy school anymore....
     
  25. Doktor_dud3

    Doktor_dud3 CPhT, Pre-Pharmacy

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    There are jobs. You just can't go into this field expecting a full time gig in a dense metropolitan area. I see many openings in my state in small towns and rural areas all the time, especially small hospitals.
     
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  26. Pharmachemist_SS

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    I am not a graduate, but I am applying for pharmacy school. I listen to successful pharmacists and leaders in the field and their opinions. I have made some of my own opinions as well. The healthcare team isn't going to disappear, even if our system is moneyless. Pharmacists are part of the healthcare team. These threads aren't going to scare me, I'd rather become a pioneer in the profession than a coward.
     
  27. Pharmachemist_SS

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    There are fellowships available for PharmD's to pursue. Fellowships are research-based and the subsequent job would be research-based as well.
     
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  28. Doktor_dud3

    Doktor_dud3 CPhT, Pre-Pharmacy

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    If you don't mind me asking, where are you applying to this cycle? Also, are you looking to get into research/industry or academia?
     
  29. DagS132

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    When you say small openings, do you mean jobs posted online or you called these places to check and see if the position is actually open?
    One thing I learned about job hunting is that the job posted online are never accurate. I had to apply everywhere and ask directly if they were hiring to find a job.
     
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  30. Doktor_dud3

    Doktor_dud3 CPhT, Pre-Pharmacy

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    Obviously you are going to see opening on places like glassdoor, etc and these may or may not be accurate indicators of what is open and what isn't. I was referring to more or less organization based recruiting. For instance the openings on a hospital groups website or on CVS or Wags websites. These listings are usually fairly accurate from what I've heard. Calling or asking in person would work too, as you said.
     
  31. DagS132

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    I dont think those CVS, Wags, Krogers, etc. websites are that accurate. That was what I used to at first to ask for open positions and all of them said no. Even the people working there told me to do what you are saying but I don't think they realized their store was part of that list that had openings.
    But yeah. Im just going to research more into this this semester.
     
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  32. DOOM N GLOOM

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    That is correct. I would say 80% of job postings have already been filled (manager has someone in mind or some internal candidate lined up for the job already), so it is deceiving to look at websites or job boards. This is why you hear the horror stories of people applying to 100+ jobs and not hearing back from a single one. I would even venture to say that if you walk up to pharmacies and ask about jobs and are told to “apply online”, that is code for “we’re not hiring”. I used to work at Costco and we said this all the time to random pharmacists who come up to the consultation window and ask about job opportunities— it’s a polite way of denial.

    I would change careers now and stay clear of pharmacy.
     
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  33. DagS132

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    Yes, thats exactly what I was thinking when the pharmacy manager or store manager talked to me.
    But yeah. My back up plan is to get into computer science. It would actually take less time and money to finish this and get a job. I was just thinking I had to maybe do an extra 2 years of school but this plan seems a lot more appealing than pharmacy school now.
     
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  34. stoichiometrist

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    You might as well say that you're going to be the next Elon Musk.

    And you realize that a lot of such successful pharmacists and leaders in the field are the same ones trying to sell you a pharmacy school seat for the price of $200k a head, right?
     
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  35. DOOM N GLOOM

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    Not to mention that there is a huge nonresponse bias when you survey the top 10% of the 10% of pharmacists who actually have jobs. So you’re forming your opinions around what the top 1% of pharmacists have to say. Crunch the numbers: you’re more likely to be in the 99% than in the 1%.
     
  36. Modest_anteater

    Modest_anteater Austin, Texas, USA.

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    This. I love when the prepharmers come on here saying "PHarmacy isn't saturated, look at all these postings for jobs on indeed!" to bad they don't realize 70% of them are fake job postings just posted to satisfy HR and the real position has already been filled.
     
  37. Modest_anteater

    Modest_anteater Austin, Texas, USA.

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    have you looked into App Academy ? 3 MONTH program and starting salary is 105,000 USD.
     
  38. DagS132

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    Thanks for the heads up. I have only looked up DevMountain so far since I literally just started looking last night.
    I think my plan is to get an actual bachelors degree in computer science and then go to the bootcamp. I feel this will make me stand out more and give me a better chance at a higher starting salary. Its still faster than spending another year in undergrad and then moving onto pharmacy school. Less money owed as well.
    Unfortunately, I still have bills to pay so I have to stick with this technician job until this semester is over. Or at least until I can find another job out there.
     
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  39. Modest_anteater

    Modest_anteater Austin, Texas, USA.

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    you realize App Academy is free right? they take like 40% of your salary for two years assuming you get a job paying more than 70k a year
     
  40. DagS132

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    Oh wow, no I didn't. I thought it was just another one of those coding bootcamps where I pay couple thousand for 3-6 months training. Yeah, that sounds awesome. I will definitely be doing that along with everything else.
     
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  41. Pharmachemist_SS

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    I don’t agree with your plan necessarily (though you must not care enough about pharmacy to go all the way so better you stop now) but it’s coincidental, my husband just left his job in sales to pursue coding. Though, he has experience coding and has wanted to do it for a long time. What’s funnier is that he’s deciding between DevMountain or self learning...So you probably live within hours of us.


    Edit: The other weird thing is that a lot of the pharmacy naysayers say to become a software engineer or coder. While I like computers, that is a huge leap from pharmacy. So does that mean everyone is only interested in pharmacy for the potential salary? My next choices would be a chemistry PhD and medical lab science BS. They make roughly 80,000 a year. I would assume people switching from pharmacy would go either science (such as a biology or chemistry PhD) or medicine such as PA or MD. Why coding? Very different field...
     
    #40 Pharmachemist_SS, Sep 6, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
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  42. JamesPharmD

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    Do they guarantee job placement after we done the program? Is it online course?
    Also, I checked out App Academy website and they mentioned about guarantee get into one of six boot camps. I thought once you apply in, you already in boot camp?????
     
    #41 JamesPharmD, Sep 6, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
  43. DagS132

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    I am actually planning on getting a bachelors in computer science and then going through the bootcamp. Doing just the bootcamp doesn't seem good enough to actually land a job. I chose the computer science route since it would not actually take that long for me to finish up the core courses. The pre reqs I have already finished and would only require a year and a half to get my bachelors in CS.

    But good luck to everyone following the pharmacy route. Hopefully everyone was wrong about the saturation thing and most graduates find a job in less than a year.
     
    #42 DagS132, Sep 6, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
  44. Modest_anteater

    Modest_anteater Austin, Texas, USA.

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    they only have two campuses SF or NYC and you have to be there in person. If you pass their course and don't get a job you don't pay them a dime.
     
  45. Pharmachemist_SS

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    Depends on what job you want. My husband is doing web development and a BS is almost useless for it. Software engineering would be better with a degree. Good luck!
     
  46. DagS132

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    Thanks! Yes, I am looking more towards software developer or engineer.
     
  47. Secret_Informant

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    Those that match are still competing (and innovating), mind you. Residencies and fellowships are not necessarily golden tickets to the Willy Wonka factory either (metaphorically speaking, of course). However, residents and fellows have better options than those that do not (assuming they do not rub someone the wrong way or make a critical medication error). The other option is that the position may not have been available at the time for unknown factors even if the stars align so to speak. Employers are at least making the attempt to hire their own residents and fellows for positions given the training period. For those who chose pharmacy regardless of the reason (patient care or money), let's get to work creating and seeking jobs that utilize a PharmD but do not require a pharmacist license to perform. There are quite a few out there.

    Here is one list:

    https://globaltalentidaho.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Pharmacist-Career-Pathway.pdf

    As a recent 2018 graduate myself, I will try again at ASHP MidYear 2018 through PPS, which is in Anaheim, CA this year. If that goes south along with the license application, then I will have to encourage others to give up the pharmacy field via the warnings on this thread (and others). I'm trying to work out the financial details.

    I spoke with my barber about the topic on this thread a week ago (among other pharmacy issues). If he knows that academia is a business even at the college level, then the students that naively choose pharmacy or fields that are not in demand are in serious trouble.

    People are as faithful as their options.
     
    #46 Secret_Informant, Sep 9, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
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  48. BidingMyTime

    BidingMyTime Lost Shaker Of Salt
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    Provider Status/MTM/Pharmaceutical Home/Pharmaceutical Care, and all the other names for the same thing has been around since the 1970's! Possibly even longer, but that's as far back as I've been able to verify. It is never going to happen. 50 years it has been talked about, color me jaded, but it is never going to happen.
     
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  49. Secret_Informant

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    Are we talking pharmacist jobs that require a license or jobs that require a PharmD with no license to practice? Also, are we only talking retail and hospital or are other areas of pharmacy suffering as well: managed care, drug information, clinical trials research, medical affairs, global marketing, HEOR, contract MSL,... What new areas are arising besides blockchain technology?

    The job crisis seems worse in India than here in the US as they suspended the PharmD over there. Without strict accountability and oversight of the student expansion, it seems what happened over there may happen here.
     
    #48 Secret_Informant, Sep 9, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  50. sozetone

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    GOOD! thats what we are trying to tell you....change your life fast! unless you want to work a 42 hour float position somewhere in nebraska making 30 bucks an hour. Thank god for Income based repayment.
     
  51. sozetone

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    It's already happened my friend....look around.
     

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