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Dog adoption rant...

Discussion in 'Pre-Veterinary' started by r00, Jan 5, 2009.

  1. r00

    r00 UF CVM c/o 2017
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    I wanted to find out how everyone else feels about pet adoption and how picky some of the shelters can be when offering up pets for adoption.

    My current son (in my avatar) is actually my wife's dog. He is her first dog, and seeing as she personally doesn't believe in neutering him odds are that he will have his manly parts intact for his entire life unless they should be causing him some kind of life threatening problem (cancer, etc ::knocks on wood:: )

    I personally love big dogs, so as we are discussing getting a 2nd dog for him to play with I am pushing my own agenda of wanting to adopt a German Shepherd because I have a great respect for the breed and I think they are a beautiful, docile breed. I actually like Rotts and pitts just as much, but I can understand why my wife would veto those breeds. I could care less if it is a mix as long as its dominant traits are GS.

    The problem that I am running into is that all of the dogs I am finding that I like belong to shelters that WILL NOT send a dog home with a family that has "unaltered" pets. WTF is up with this? I have no problems getting the new dog spayed/neutered. I sympathize with the current number of pets who need good homes and would actually prefer to adopt an older (3-5 year old) dog as opposed to dealing with another puppy but apparently I am not allowed to get one unless my wife compromises her personal beliefs and gets our schnauzer neutered. I feel like the dogs should be allowed to go the best home, meaning that since I have a large fenced in yard big enough for several large breed dogs to run and play I would get preference over someone with a fixed pet that lives in an apartment and wants the same shepherd that I want.

    How do you guys and gals feel about shelters putting these kinds of requirements in place? Shouldn't the dog be allowed to go to the best home for it?
     
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  3. No Imagination

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    My sister recently tried to get a dog for her son. We've had dogs our entire lives, and there are veterinary records for all of them. We currently have a cat (which she put on the application) living with us, and the only veterinary records of said cat are the rabies vaccine.

    All other shot records and neutering was done ;) but the records are somewhere else.

    The shelter were so adamant about finding proof that the cat (9 y/o stray with FIV that I adopted) was neutered that they denied her the adoption of the dog she wanted until the vet could get back to them (he was out of the country).

    In the end, she ended up buying a dog from a puppy mill rather then jump through any more hoops.

    I can/do sympathize with you. I used to work at a public shelter, try them, they tend to be more reasonable in terms of adoptions.
     
  4. david594

    david594 The-OSU CVM c/o 2013
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    The issue is that your wifes "personal beliefs" on neutering your schnauzer does not have the best interest of the animal in mind. Or at least that is the opinion of the shelter(and myself).

    An unneutered dog is more likely to have prostate issues later in life, at risk for testicular cancer, and more likely to get hit by a car.

    Now what is your wifes medical reasoning for not wanting to neuter him?


    On the shelter side of things, most shelters that do high volumes of adoption don't know the adoptees beyond their application and a short interview. From these things they need to make a decision whether it will be a good match for adoption or not. They will look at big predicting factors as to if the animal will be properly cared for or not, and how other animals in the household are cared for can be significant indicators for this. And generally speaking, households with un-altered pets leave much to be desired. Maybe not in your case, but those are just the rules of the game for a high volume shelter who don't have the resources or time to investigate how you should be the exception to the rule.
     
  5. r00

    r00 UF CVM c/o 2017
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    Hit by a car? lol, what?!?!

    She just doesn't want to expose him to unnecessary risk and/or pain by putting him up for elective surgery... I can't say that I blame her because I have seen the results of a botched neuter and she figured while it is rare, why risk it? Which I think almost anyone can respect... almost anyone... lol
     
  6. david594

    david594 The-OSU CVM c/o 2013
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    You laugh, but I will just wait for anyone else with experience in an emergency veterinary hospital to chime in and explain.
     
  7. No Imagination

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    Think they mean, "Dogs runs out of house to chase a bitch across street, gets hit by car".

    ...or you live near a junkyard with those big magnetic cranes, and power outage results in electro magnet failure, resulting on car landing on un-neutered dog... but guess said dog could be licking his stitches after surgery as well... so now i dunno

    Also have to agree that the pro's outweigh the cons big time to have the dog neutered. My issue is, you have a dog thats in good health which you take care of, that should be a green light for another adoption IMO, esp. since your willing to have your new dog spayed/neutered.
     
  8. chris03333

    chris03333 Veterinarian
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    intact male can be aggressive to potential new adoptee. The shelter has a very valid concern.
     
  9. philomycus

    philomycus The Tree Rat
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    I easily see both sides of the arguement here. Does this mean they should not adopt a dog out to a perfectly loving home, if the new dog and your current pooch get along?? No. But the majority of the real world can be stupid and careless, that's why animals end up in shelters in the first place.

    I understand your frustration, but they have their rules and I think you'll find them consistent from shelter to shelter. I feel for you, I really do, but I also strongly side with neutering and spaying every animal unless you are a professional, ethical breeder promoting the best traits and genes for the breed. I see many dogs come in with prostate problems, b/c they are not neutered. And the same goes for females- they have problems too. Why risk it? Also, think about how sexually frustrating/hormonally crazy it may be for an animal who is not fixed to never breed.
     
  10. r00

    r00 UF CVM c/o 2017
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    Interesting - I can't wait to hear what some of these reasons are... (and just because typed word can be tough to understand that was NOT sarcasm, I am seriously very interested in why this may be true)


    That is certainly a possible scenario - no matter how good of a job I try to do keeping him inside there is always that possibility. I do agree that I should get the green light, though.

    I could understand if the established dog was a large, intact male Pitt but a 17lb schnauzer? I am going to bet that even the most timid GS can handle my bundle of fur...
     
  11. nyanko

    nyanko 360noscope squidkid
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    It was touched on, but hormonal influences in an intact male will make the dog more willing to escape if an intact bitch is in heat in the neighborhood. How do you think a lot of "oops" litters tend to happen?

    I'm not sure I have a :rolleyes: big enough for this quote. It doesn't matter if your dog is big or small, if there are aggression issues between the animals it will cause problems, and the fact is that while these issues can exist between neutered animals as well, intact males in particular do have more potential for inter-dog aggression. What if your 17 lb "bundle of fur" (with two unnecessary attachments) instigates something and the new dog "handles it" by ripping his throat out? What if the new dog is submissive to the point that he becomes distrustful and in essence untrainable?

    Also it's PIT bull with one T, and pit bulls aren't that large.

    When I worked at a shelter I would not adopt a dog out to a person with an intact dog either, unless they were a responsible breeder who shows and works their dogs.
     
  12. Skillet9886

    Skillet9886 UFCVM c/o 2013!
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    I'm not really going to weigh in one way or another on whether you should be able to adopt a dog; I can see it from both sides. Personally, I'm almost always on the pro-neuter side of things. I do have an adoption-related anecdote of my own though. Last weekend I went to Petsmart where a couple of local shelters bring pets for adoption. I saw a litter of adorable kittens and started playing with them. I noticed the lady's shirt with the shelter logo on it and mentioned that it was the humane society that I'd adopted my dog from. The more I think about the following conversation, the more offended I become.

    Her: "Oh, what kind of dog is it?"
    Me: "She's a pit bull mix."
    "Oh. How old is she?"
    "She's nine."
    "And how old was she when you adopted her?"
    "Around one.."
    "Well why didn't you adopt a kitten at the same time you adopted her? Then they could have grown up together and they'd be used to each other."
    "Um, well, that was eight years ago, and I had a cat at the time."
    "How did your cat die?"
    "Well, she was 15..."
    "That's young for a cat. What happened?"
    "She had a heart attack."
    "How do you know your dog is good with cats?"
    "Because she's lived with one for as long as I've had her, and my roommate has a cat and they're fine."

    She still didn't believe me! It was outrageous. She continued to complain that I wanted a cat now instead of EIGHT YEARS AGO so that my horrible, vicious pit bull won't tear a kitten to shreds. As I type my dog is lying about 10 inches away from my roommate's cat.

    I've volunteered at 3 different shelters, and I know that they can be picky, and have reasons for that, but honestly, I've never seen someone outright refused to get a cat just because they have a dog, especially if that dog has lived with cats her whole life!

    Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread with my rant, it was just a crazy encounter. r00, I might suggest you try to find a GSD rescue organization in your area. A lot of times breed-specific rescues have a little more time to consider the full picture of the family in comparison to larger shelters. Can't guarantee anything, but it's worth a shot if you really don't want to neuter your schnauzer.
     
  13. No Imagination

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    Next time...

    Me: "Its a terrier mix."
    Crazy Lady: "Really, what kind of terrier mix?"
    Me: "Don't know, Staffordshire I think; Name's 'cuttle's'."
    Crazy Overbearing Cat Lady: "Ahh, sounds cute... 'want a cat?'"
     
  14. Barnaby

    Barnaby Colorado State PVM 2013
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    :lol:

    Too too funny.
    Good work.
     
  15. Skillet9886

    Skillet9886 UFCVM c/o 2013!
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    Yeah, usually I know better. "Retriever mix." I just thought that a staff member of the humane society might be a little more....informed?
     
  16. Pandacinny

    Pandacinny VMRCVM c/o 2013
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    You think you'd make a great home for this pet. The shelter obviously doesn't, so check someplace else. You have every right not to neuter your animal (whether or not the rest of us agree), but the shelter has every right to turn you down in favor of someone else. Don't like it? Write them a polite letter telling them why you disagree with this policy, then find and support organizations you do agree with. If you're really searching for a pet, try checking Petfinder or Craigslist.

    Also, I live in a tiny, second floor apartment with two large dogs and they get plenty of exercise. It's not about your yard (or lack of one) - it's about how much time you're going to put into taking care of your pet. Yards are not shorthand for good pet ownership. Veterinary records, for many shelters, are.
     
  17. banditalfi

    banditalfi Cornell 2012
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    just my two cents... i understand the shelter rules, but i also think they can be unreasonable... there is a huge overpopulation issue in most parts of the country, so it seems a bit ridiculous to deny a person a neutered animal because they have an in tact animal... just like i think it's ridiculous to deny cats to anyone that won't promise to never let them outside, but that's another story for another time...

    also, i take issue with the claims that spaying/neutering is better for the animal. i certainly agree that it's better for society and overall health, but claims that there is less incidence of prostate cancer in neutered males is like telling me there's less incidence of appendicitis in people without appendices. sure, sure, there are other issues such as pyos in females that haven't had litters and all that stuff, but i just thought i'd throw in my thoughts...
     
  18. ylrebmik

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    I totally understand your ranting. There rules can be quite annoying... but, hey at least their going about everything responsible. I wish it would be a little relaxed because I can't stand pet stores selling the actual animals but thats entirely another debate. I hope you guys can get everything worked out... either with that shelter or another!
     
  19. BR549

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    I was just wondering if you had experience with the vet that performed the blotched neuter. I know there are risks with any surgery, but a neuter is pretty straight forward and not that invasive (unless your dog has a crypt orchid). Either way, it is your dog and you have the right to leave him in tact.

    I think shelters should be more concerned with looking at vet records for all animals within a household. This seems a more pressing issue. Is the dog updated on vaccinations? Do you have the dog on heartworm medication (year round, for those of us in the south). What is your experience with large dogs?...Those are the questions I would ask if I were trying to adopt out a large dog.

    I agree that Craigslist is a good place to go. With people moving and unable to take their dogs with them, CL is full of family pets that need a home. Oh yeah, try Animal control (the pound). Where I come from, animal control is separate from the humane society and they have a lot of good dogs. I found a healthy, purebred basset there once.

    Good Luck! Let us know if you find something.
     
  20. BR549

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  21. Poochlover11

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    That is really interesting BR549. I never knew there were so many health risks with spay/neutering. However I still agree with what is being said about the importance of spay/neutering. I read this in my companion animal textbook and found this incredible

    Reproductive Potential of Sexually Mature Healthy Cats under Optimal Environmental Conditions:

    Day 1: 2 Cats
    One year later: 12 Cats
    Two years later: 66 Cats
    Three years later: 382 Cats
    Four years later: 2,201 Cats
    Five years later: 12,680 Cats
    Six years later: 73,041 Cats
    Seven years later: 420,715 Cats
    Eight years later: 2,423,316 Cats!!!!!

    That is crazy!! I know that owners try and keep there intact male dogs or cats from roaming but you have to realize that when female animals go into heat they emit an odor that males can smell for miles.

    There are just so many unwanted animals and not enough homes. It is estimated that there are 10,000 human babies born compared to 70,000 puppies and kittens born each year. There are just not nearly enough homes for all these unwanted animals. Unwanted animals also cause all kind of problems to society, especially if they are not friendly (dog bites) and if they aren't vaccinated (rabies from dog bites). I feel it is important that we do our part to reduce these numbers because so many dogs, good dogs, are euthanized because there are just too many animals.

    I am not saying you are a bad person for not neutering because you don't want any possible complications. But the possibility of your dog escaping some time once his doggie hormones kick in and producing another unwanted litter is pretty good. I guess I would reccommend neutering your dog, because it can prevent more unwanted and homeless dogs being born.
     
  22. chris03333

    chris03333 Veterinarian
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    Small dogs are the worst usually...you'd be suprised...:(

    Just because the schnauzer is small doesn't mean it won't provoke something. It could cause a defense attack from the other dog.
     
    #21 chris03333, Jan 5, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2009
  23. chris03333

    chris03333 Veterinarian
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    I would not look to NAIA for surgical procedure opinion.
     
  24. Ben and Me

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    Chris, you beat me to it. And Schnauzers are some of the worst....we have more aggressive Schnauzers than almost any other breed...Not saying that your schnauzer is bad, but shelters go by stereotypes, and right now you have several that are going against you.
     
  25. david594

    david594 The-OSU CVM c/o 2013
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  26. No Imagination

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  27. sofficat

    sofficat AU CVM c/o 11
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    I can totally understand your frustrations, but I can see it from the shelter's perspective too. Lack of spaying/neutering is what causes most of their pets to be there, so I can see why they wouldn't want to reward a family with an unaltered pet. But it is really annoying that there is a good family out there wanting to rescue an animal that is living in a cage in a noisy crowded shelter and they won't let you have him/her?
    Reminds me of two similar situations... my sister is a golden fanatic and wanted to adopt a second golden from a rescue in FL and they wouldn't let her because she doesn't have a fenced in yard... yet she has a large yard with an invisible fence that works great for her golden, but they will never let her adopt from them (and my aunt and parents both live nearby with large fenced in yards)
    I worked at a clinic and a guy adopted a cat from a rescue and had to sign a form stating that he will never get this cat declawed. I can't believe that a cat rescue is more concerned with not having the cats get declawed then they are with finding them a home! I personally don't believe in declaws, but I would never (esp as a cat rescue!) NOT adopt a cat to a wonderful family because they may get it declawed.
     
  28. BR549

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    Oops, I didn't know what the NAIA was until now. The author, though, did cite scholarly journals on the manner. I am personally for spaying and neutering. All 6 of my dogs (and 4 cats) are "fixed". Heck, even my goats are wethered. :D

    The cat info was scary!:scared:
     
  29. Shanomong

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  30. aussiered

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    Sorry but I just had to add, you say you've see a botched neuter. Ok, but have you seen an 8 year old dog with prostate cancer who's prostate is so enlarged that he can't urinate or defecate effectively and is in so much pain that even walking is difficult?

    I have. We euthanised him last week.

    We had a similar dog earlier in the year whose owner's opted for chemotherapy. But X-Rays showed that the cancer had already metastised and was now in the lungs also. He went home on pain meds and died not long later.

    Is this what you and your wife want for your 'son'?
     
  31. twelvetigers

    twelvetigers stabby cat
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    I thought this as well while reading - Schnauzers are MEAN. Or, rather, they can be. Yours may be an angel, I know, but the other owners call theirs angels as well even though we know otherwise...

    I'm a fan of neutering in all non-breeding cases. Of course it's nothing personal, and your wife can do whatever she likes with the dog - but the shelter's rules will remain. I'd hate to see you purchase a dog rather than rescue one because of the situation, but I guess it's an option.

    On a side note, our local CAAP program will not pay for the spay/neuter of cats that have been declawed by the current owner. That has always seemed counterproductive to me.
     
  32. Electrophile

    Electrophile Working Dog Doc
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    I was just reminded of this today...my parents wanted to get another dog because one of their two dogs was hit and killed by a car in early November. What happened was that my dad was at an off leash area and they kicked up a deer. The two dogs, a Weimaraner and a Vizsla, chased the deer out of the park, and the Vizsla was hit and killed. :( My dad applied for a Doberman at the local breed rescue and he was denied because:

    1) he never had any "special needs" dogs and the Dobe he wanted had vision problems in one eye. Their Weim, who was a former foster dog of mine, has extremely severe separation anxiety and will turn his gums into hamburger trying to get out a crate or kennel...I'd say that's pretty special needs!
    2) they don't have a fence in yet, even though my dad jogs with the Weim 2-3 miles EVERY day and he goes to the off leash park several times a week (though now he keeps them on a leash), which is a lot more exercise than many dogs with a fenced yard get!
    3) they didn't have any breed experience, even though they've owned other large breed dogs for 20 years. :rolleyes:

    I was honestly surprised they didn't turn him down because of the Vizsla getting hit by a car, but I *REALLY* doubt that 99% of your average pet dogs could be recalled from chasing a DEER. My mom begged me to pull a nice dog for them from the local shelter before he got fed up with dealing with rescues and bought another Vizsla puppy from a BYB. So I got them a nice but ridiculously thin (like 1.5/9 BCS scale thin!) 9 year old Rottie from our local shelter (where they adopted the Weim), who they absolutely adore. :D The Rottweiler unfortunately has a mammary tumor from being kept intact and bred for 9 years, so I brought her back down to school with me to see if I could get a better price at the teaching hospital (turns out their local vet is cheaper by a long shot). But I brought her by the shelter to show her to the foster care coordinator a few days ago and she didn't even recognize her, she's looking so good.

    So yeah, I really enjoy doing foster and volunteering and I've done it for years, but some of the private rescues and some shelters are, IMHO, too strict, particularly about the fence thing. I also don't think having dogs kept intact (especially males) should be a disqualifier either necessarily, as my youngest male Malinois is a sport performance dog and is intact. We do disc, agility, hiking and Dog Scouts and I'd love to do protection sport like ringsport again in the future with him. He comes from some of the best working lines in the country and if he's got enough titles and passes some stringent health certificates (hips, elbows, eyes, etc), I'd *maybe* consider breeding him.

    Sometimes the people that go on about the "don't buy while homeless animals die" thing don't realize is that if you want a dog for a very specific purpose, you almost always have to get them from strong working lines, with a few exceptions from shelters/rescues. If people want a pet, yes, please get them from a shelter/rescue first and for pets, yes, please spay and neuter (3 out of my 4 are shelter/rescue dogs and are of course fixed and I've fostered dozens of dogs for the local shelter, got a nice Dane/lab mix right now if anyone's interested!). But for performance dogs, they're likely going to need to come from working lines and responsible breeders.
     
  33. Poochlover11

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    I agree that QUALIFIED breeders should keep intact animals to keep good blood lines and what not. But I have also experienced a lot of decent animals that were once owned but now unwanted for whatever reason and will get put down because there are too many animals in a shelter/pound/etc. There are plenty of animals that need homes now and you don't need to breed more animals if it isn't necessary. And by the way just because you breed an animal for a specific purpose does not mean it will be good for that purpose or will have the same traits as it's parents.
     
  34. biogirl215

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    FW(Little)IW, my family chose to keep our then 6-year-old Great Dane adoptee intact largely at the advice of our vet, who said that neutered Great Danes frequently suffered from excessive weight gain and the resulting joint breakdown, lower quality of life, and possibly early death. (As an aside, this dog did father a litter of puppies years before we adopted him. I have no clue why his first owner didn't get him fixed). He lived a long life (12 years old) for a Great Dane and stayed very lean, though he did have a myriad of GI issues.

    I'm pro-spaying/neutering in general, but I just felt like sharing that anecdote. *shrug*
     
  35. StealthDog

    StealthDog U of MN 2010
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    Our theriogenologist published a paper in JAVMA last year about the benefits and risks of spaying/neutering... You can read it here: http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.231.11.1665

    Neutered males are at increased risk for prostate cancer relative to intact dogs.
     
  36. 3dogsand2cats

    2+ Year Member

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    Just wondering... How many of you have worked for an animal shelter/rescue group/humane society? Did you have to do adoptions?
    I was just wondering b/c one of the issues I faced while working there was turning people down. We use to have the same policy about not adopting to a home where an animal was not fixed. Over the years the policy has changed. The organization now says all owners must bring in their current dog and see if it gets along with the new dog they are interested in. There are also many other things the organization checks for (such as updated vet records, landlord checks etc.) I understand many people's frustration with these rescue agencies. However, these agencies have reasons for making rules.
    On a side note I don't agree with not getting a dog neuter b/c it against your personal belief. Unless there is a medical reason or it's a show dog there really is NO excuse for not having your pet spayed or neutered.
     
  37. Poochlover11

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    I have not. But I use to work at a kennel with a lady that did. She use to tell me sad stories. An example: she said six really cute kittens came in. The manager said there were too many to keep all of them, so she told the lady I knew to euthanize all but two. And the lady told me it was incredibly difficult. How do you choose which one of those cute kitties lives or doesn't live? I guess after reading my companion animal textbook and hearing stories from her I am pretty much against unnecessarily keeping your dogs intact. And I know for AKC and what not that is ok (aka. breeeders who are qualified), but other then that why take the risk?
     
  38. No Imagination

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    There are many interesting breed/combinations out there that many people find very attractive, both for Aesthetics and temperament.

    Just because my dog is not a show dog shouldn't mean I am never allowed to breed it. Keep in mind, not all pedigree's are show dogs. Not all pure breeds are pedigrees.

    Growing up I had a Husky/Malamute mix. He was an amazing dog, who's parents were both pedigrees and while my n=1 in this statement, I thought he had the best traits of both breeds.

    Finally, how do you think detrimental recessive traits build up in a germ line? Even Aldous Huxley knew 90 years ago that some wild type's needed to be kept "intact"
     
    #37 No Imagination, Jan 6, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2009
  39. DrKsomeday

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    I figured I’d chime in since well this is an area of interest of mine. To be more specific my goal is to do shelter medicine. I also run a rescue that I started in ‘04 with my husband our favorite breed to work with is GSDs. (Sorry I don’t have any ready for adoption at this time.)


    It really depends on how you look at this situation. If you approach it from the Board of Directors of the Humane Society whose job is setting policy and fiscal responsibility then it makes since to have rather strict adoption rules. Why? You are looking out for the pets in your care and upholding whatever mission statement the organization has. Does it mean that dogs in your care will get put down for lack of “qualified” homes? Yes if you have a high volume if it’s a small shelter/rescue then maybe the answer would be No.


    Is it the best approach? IMO yes and no. Yes, if you are dealing with a high volume and you have to make some assumptions; reminds me of ADCOMS (ha). Still I don’t agree that this approach is best for a few reasons.


    1. It turns people off to the shelter/rescue groups and the good work they actually do.
    2. You are denying a family the chance to care for and love a pet in need.
    3. You are also failing to educate as to the pros/cons.


    Personally I think number three is huge. Yes, you may never ever want to have your male schnauzer neutered but if I don’t treat you like a fool then maybe you’ll consider the benefits. I can see this from a Vet’s perspective. If I walk into a room with a client and act all high and mighty will they ever come back to my clinic? No, will I earn a reputation for being a butthead. Yes. If I walk into a room with the same client and lay out the pros/cons letting them make an informed decision isn’t that a better approach.

    Even with all of that said will the shelter change their stance? Probable not and that is because they’ve been burned before. Shelter/Rescue work is tough and the staffs are typically stretched thin. Many function based on volunteer help with folks having varying levels of experience. They don’t have a ton of funds and what they have they invest into the pets. Now this isn’t always the case but it gives you an idea of why they have such standards. They have invested emotionally (sometimes), time, and money.

    Since I’ve worked with rescue GSD’s I’ll also give you some thoughts on that. I would be reluctant to add a GSD to your family scenario unless I had a really good idea of the Shepherd I was sending to you and your level of experience. GSD’s are fantastic dogs and I love the breed. I have four and all but one is a rescue. Mine are great with cats, small dogs, kids. However, I have worked with a number of GSD’s that have high prey drives, cat aggression, very dominant, and one that didn’t like kids (that one was unadoptable). Keep in mind that a dog can end up in a shelter/rescue situation because of these issues. Add to that fact that the shelter volunteer may only work one day a week and may not know the dog’s triggers. I don’t think buying from a breeder guarantees anything either unless they are a really reputable one.


    Just keep in mind by having a small dog still intact you are setting yourself up for a potentially bad situation. Your small dog could be territorial to a new member to the family or the new dog could be threatened by the small dog. Either could lead to a fight. So if you could avoid it wouldn’t that be best. If with this in mind your wife is still against neutering then maybe try working with a breed rescue group who probable foster their dogs in their own homes so they know more about them.


    However, try to keep in mind why shelters/rescues have the standards that they do. They’re stuck cleaning up the mess of “oops” litters and poor planning for pets not intended for breeding. I would also recommend that you do some volunteering with a group. The thought of “walk a mile in their shoes” comes to mind. As a pre-vet it’ll give you a new perspective both good and bad. Exposure never hurt anyone and it may broaden your view. I know my world/perspective has changed by getting involved and it has also been very rewarding to help find a pet a wonderful family.


    Sorry so long, I just don’t know how to summarize such a complicated topic.:oops:
     
  40. StealthDog

    StealthDog U of MN 2010
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    Nicely said DrK :)

    Dr. Root's JAVMA article makes the conclusion that it is best for shelters to treat their animals as a population, and it is best for their population to spay/neuter everyone before they leave the shelter. However, owned animals should be treated as individuals, and a veterinarian should be willing to discuss the pros and cons (yes, there are cons) to neutering and spaying. Vets/pet lovers are often quick to jump to the conclusion that no one can possibly handle an intact animal responsibly, but I think a well-informed owner is very capable of doing so.

    There are lots of reasons why an owner may not want to alter their pets, and depending on the owner, the cost/benefit ratio will vary depending on the owner and the pet involved. Like DrK said, if you harass owners about why their pet isn't altered (including using scare tactics like "your pet will get CANCER CANCER CANCER"), you will shut that owner down and make them much less willing to listen to your point of view.

    In my experience, living in an urban area with educated clientele, owners who opt to not alter their pets are making a very conscious, responsible decision to do so. Not everyone is just a dummy who wants to breed their lhasa-poo because she's so darn cute.
     
  41. Malhi

    Malhi UW-Madison SVM 2013
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    I think you hit on all the points that I wanted to mention. I just wanted to add that shelters try to minimize the number of adopted pets that are returned to the shelter. I have seen too many returned (or worse dumped) because the animal didn't get along with the previous pets/kids/the owner had no time to care for/couldn't afford/ landlord didn't allow etc. :(b

    I too didn't get why shelters would have such stringent rules if the aim was to adopt out the homeless animals. But now I get how hard it is (for us and especially the animal) to have the animals returned when the situation could have been avoided in the first place. It is not a perfect system but shelters are trying to do the best they can for the animal.
     
  42. nyanko

    nyanko 360noscope squidkid
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    edit: I'm glad you posted that article, StealthDog. I was actually looking for it last night to find where I had previously read that some studies showed that neutering actually increased the risk for prostate cancer. With me, the issue of spay/neuter is very cut and dry with female dogs and a bit less so with male dogs. However, I just can't trust the average dog owner to employ proper husbandry in dealing with an intact male dog, and you can't be sure they aren't breeding it either, so from a former adoption counselor's perspective unless the person is a responsible breeder who shows or works their dogs, I wouldn't adopt a dog to them either.

    If you breed your dog without the purpose of improving the breed either for conformation or for utility, then you are an irresponsible breeder who is adding to the shelter problem. Sorry to be harsh, but it's the truth. Of course you can do whatever you want with your own animals - mandatory spay/neuter laws are stupid - but it doesn't mean you're a responsible breeder.

    A "pedigree" is a diagram of ancestral phenotypes, not a living animal. I don't even know what your statements at the end are supposed to mean.

    Great. You probably could have found an amazing mixed breed dog at an animal shelter. There are millions of them. No reason to actually seek out and purchase a mixed breed, especially when you can't actually ensure that the animal gets "the best traits of both breeds."

    What are you even talking about here? You are showing a lot of ignorance regarding genetics.
     
    #41 nyanko, Jan 6, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2009
  43. No Imagination

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    A "pedigree animal" is a cultivar (animal or otherwise) whose lineage can be recorded. For the AKC and other organization, it is predominantly used as a way to prevent inbreeding. I’m not 100% sure of this, but I thought that AKC show dogs must be pedigrees.

    Finally, not all purebreds are pedigrees. If you do not send in your papers, you champion show dog is not a pedigree.

    Of course. I never advocated the idea of buying or selling mixed breeds. Just the ignorance of saying if your dog isn’t a show dog (or medical contradiction), you MUST have it fixed. We are in agreement “mandatory spay/neuter laws are stupid”

    Not quite sure how to respond to that. Genetic Bottle necking? The laundry list of genetic disorders that plague many purebreds (even those with pedigree’s) that are the result of recessive traits being expressed due to poor genetic diversity within a breed. I can draw you a Punett Square if you like?
     
  44. 3dogsand2cats

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    No matter what there will always be animals who's O are not responsible. If you choose to have an animal not fixed then be smart about it. I am still strongly in support of spaying and neutering of all animals before they leave a shelter or rescue (unless medical reason permits). I understand most of you feel differently but the humane society I work for travels around eastern NC taking dogs/cats from shelters all over NC. If people were more responsible for there animals we wouldn't have all these animals looking for homes. So i guess the main point I am making is if you don't want to get your animal fixed then at least be smart about it.
     
  45. Moonpaw

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    That's interesting. I've heard that large-breed dogs shouldn't be neutered until 18-24 months, but not that they shouldn't be fixed ever.
     
  46. Barnaby

    Barnaby Colorado State PVM 2013
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    :roflcopter: Top notch.

    That was funny. That's all.
     
    #45 Barnaby, Jan 6, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2009
  47. Shanomong

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    Agreed. Sorry... but I don't see any good reason to intentionally breed a dog if it's not for the betterment of the breed lines. Just because you had a great dog doesn't mean he needs to be bred. There are plenty of great dogs out there... why should you breed your husky mix with another husky mix to create third generation mutts when there are thousands of mutts in shelters waiting for a new home? Now someone will come to you for one of your mutt puppies instead of helping out a dog in a shelter. Who does that benefit? You if you make money off of it... and the puppy if he's going to a good home. It doesn't really help the new owner because they could have found an equally great dog at a shelter or rescue. Who does it hurt? It could potentially hurt you both emotionally and financially if your dog has a difficult pregnancy or needs a c-section. It doesn't help your dog who you've put through an unnecessary pregnancy, and it could hurt her for the reasons above. And it hurts that dog in the shelter who continues to wait for a home because you thought it would be fun to breed your cute sweet mutt for no real reason.

    I'm all for breeding... I think there are good reasons for good breeders, and I think it's very beneficial to have breeds out there, available for specific purposes. Even if that purpose is to be a pet... I'm OK with people wanting purebred pets because you can look at a breed and know generally what to expect as far as temperment, health, size, food and exercise requirements, etc... but with a mixed breed there is no benefit offered to someone who chooses to go to a "breeder" instead of a shelter.
     
  48. nyanko

    nyanko 360noscope squidkid
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    Whatever, it isn't worth it. I don't even know why I am arguing with someone who thinks that randomly putting together 2 dogs of different (inbred) breeds is some panacea to inbreeding depression in purebred dogs.
     
    #47 nyanko, Jan 6, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2009
  49. pressmom

    pressmom Third year!
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    I read most of the beginning of the thread, but didn't read some of the end. Having just had urinary, neutering does NOT protect against prostatic neoplasia. In fact when there is an enlarged prostate in a neutered dog, it is most likely neoplasia. It does, however, protect against benign prostatic hyperplasia/hypertrophy and prostatic infection. Obviously it would also eliminate the possibility of testicular neoplasia.

    Just from personal experience, my maltipoo (from the shelter--see avatar) was neutered at 3 years of age by the shelter and is still MASSIVELY aggressive towards other dogs. I would never trust him off leash except in a fenced yard, as he would try to kill any dog that happened by regardless of any command I give him. He does get along with my other dog, but I think that's just luck. My friends can't bring their dogs over and I can't leave him at my friends' houses when I go out of town because he is just too aggressive. Now is this because he (at 11 lbs) had to defend himself on the street for an indefinite period of time or because he was doing this pre-neutering and the aggression was just there before he got neutered.

    Honestly, I think any dog not used for responsible breeding purposes or showing/events requiring the dog to be intact or be bred for a special skill, should be neutered/spayed. It is a fairly low risk procedure (especially a neuter), and with the proper pre-anesthetic preparation the risk can be lowered even further.
     
  50. david594

    david594 The-OSU CVM c/o 2013
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    I think this pretty much sums up the whole matter of the shelter spay and neuter policies. You just cant look at the issue in terms of individual animals.
     
  51. Malhi

    Malhi UW-Madison SVM 2013
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    :claps:
     

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