Dropping out of Medical School

[Goro]

Med school is a furnace and I've seen it break even healthy students.

How do you know med school isn't the thing causing the depression in the first place?

You're assuming your med school had no role in contributing to mental illness that wasn't there before.

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[TxsMed14]

To answer several questions/themes coming up:

1. I'm in on-going treatment, and feel my old self again. Not the first time. I've had depression before medical school, and received treatment. I put that it in my personal statement, and admins were fully aware (see earlier post)

2. Before coming in, I had MS in microbiology, worked as an EMT and full-time clinical research tech. My workload wasn't higher now than in my life before, but the environment is. Research is great, but I am an idealistic person driven by patient care. (So medicine seems a perfect combination of both, right?). Some of the positive feedback on rotations was that I'm excellent with MI.

It's not a school for primary care and save-the-world-hugs. I don't judge that I should be. But I am definitely missing that support system. It’s something I could not have understood before coming here.

3. At our school, MS1 =1 classroom, MS2 = clinical year (then Step 1), MS3 = research year. MS4 = Rotations. I've completed MS1 and half of Ms2. When I began feeling better, I decided to use the time until August to study and take Step1. But strangely, I can't find my groove and my passion. If I feel fine, why can't dive into the material like i've been doing for years?


Questions I'm sorting through...
Is there some kind of sub-acute depression that still needs to heal, or is my body telling me this is the wrong career, regardless of my drive and passion that I still feel I have?

Will it return when I go back? My last experience wasn't triggered by stress. I acknowledge, the major issue is going to such a highly competitive school, rather than the workload. Would I have done better (emotionally) at a different school? Can I use CBT to address the perfectionism that we all deal with, so that it doesn't have such an impact? Was that even the problem to begin with?


They don't necessarily have answers. But maybe it's time I put them out in the world, instead of just my head. Messy.

 

[zeppelinpage4]

To answer several questions/themes coming up:

1. I'm in on-going treatment, and feel my old self again. Not the first time. I've had depression before medical school, and received treatment. I put that it in my personal statement, and admins were fully aware (see earlier post)

2. Before coming in, I had MS in microbiology, worked as an EMT and full-time clinical research tech. My workload wasn't higher now than in my life before, but the environment is. Research is great, but I am an idealistic person driven by patient care. (So medicine seems a perfect combination of both, right?). Some of the positive feedback on rotations was that I'm excellent with MI.

It's not a school for primary care and save-the-world-hugs. I don't judge that I should be. But I am definitely missing that support system. It’s something I could not have understood before coming here.

3. At our school, MS1 =1 classroom, MS2 = clinical year (then Step 1), MS3 = research year. MS4 = Rotations. I've completed MS1 and half of Ms2. When I began feeling better, I decided to use the time until August to study and take Step1. But strangely, I can't find my groove and my passion. If I feel fine, why can't dive into the material like i've been doing for years?


Questions I'm sorting through...
Is there some kind of sub-acute depression that still needs to heal, or is my body telling me this is the wrong career, regardless of my drive and passion that I still feel I have?

Will it return when I go back? My last experience wasn't triggered by stress. I acknowledge, the major issue is going to such a highly competitive school, rather than the workload. Being surrounded by olympic medalists, Ivy league valedictorians, Boston Marathon runners takes a toll. Would I have done better (emotionally) at a different school? Can I use CBT to address the perfectionism that we all deal with, so that it doesn't have such an impact? Was that even the problem to begin with?


They don't necessarily have answers. But maybe it's time I put them out in the world, instead of just my head. Messy.

Wow, this is very similar to what my experience with mental health issues has been like. I did well before med school, and looking back, it was because I had a strong support system with me in high school and college. Med school turned out to be a far more isolating experience, most people (including myself) were so busy trying to stay afloat, it was difficult to go out and do fun things with classmates on a regular basis. Also, lots more students were married, had families and just were in different places in their lives, which made it a bit harder to develop relationships. I also went from a small close knit undergrad to a larger research university med school, and I realize now, that large school environment doesn't suit me, it made the isolation that much more difficult.

I ended up going to a smaller satellite campus for my clinical years, and it made a world of difference. Once there, I opened up about my psych issues, and I too was very surprised at how accepting and kind my mentors were. They helped me find care, start treatment, and the smaller environment made me feel much more at home. Now I feel much better.
However I have the same questions...how will I handle residency? My health deteriorated the last few years, and I wonder if it might hurt my health even more down the road.

Yet, there's a few things that are different now and they give me some confidence moving forward. I didn't know I had a mental illness until I got to med school, I always had some issues mentally but I never considered myself to have a problem cause I still did well in high school and college. But as Goro said, med school is a furnace and it brought everything out ot the surface. Unlike before starting med school, for residency, I'm aware that I need to keep my mental health in check. I'm even looking at specialties which might have more regular hours, to allow for some balance in my life, and residency programs that are smaller and close knit. These are things I didn't realize before starting med school, but I'm trying to learn from the setbacks. The things is, the future is uncertain, but I do know that after all the ups and downs, I still want to be here, and I'm thankful to be capable and have the chance to try.

Plus, we need physicians of all backgrounds. Your depression likely gives you an understanding of mental illness that not all doctors may have, and you might empathize with some of your patients really well because of it.

 

[DKMA]

Wtf?

There is a difference between having mental illness and going into medicine for the wrong reasons.

Some people may BECOME depressed because they realized that medicine isn't a freebie into the top 2% and that it actually takes a lot of time, sacrifice, and actual interest and passion to learn medicine at the end of the day.

Seek out what is causing you to become depressed, if it really is the fact that you don't like medicine at all and did it only because you thought you'd be rich later then dropping out is the best option. Otherwise, seek psychiatry help.

Where did you get that the OP was depressed over not being rich?

OP, good luck. It takes a lot of courage and maturity to ever consider dropping out. I wish you all the best.

I'm not in med school yet, but I went to a top undergrad. I understand where you are coming from. I felt that many students got to the top because there was something off about their personality, they were self-assured and self-focused, and worried about maintaining an image of perfection. Someone could very clearly be self-destructing and everyone would turn away and leave the person to sort things out themselves. There was actually time where I told someone that a family member died and they responded, "I'm sorry. That sucks. Yeah, I'm stressed too; I have a 10 page paper." Then the next person would say, "you think that's bad? I have a 15 page paper and a test due tomorrow." And people would go back and forth trying to impress each other with how much stress they can handle and how many things they can balance rather than actually supporting each other. It made me have 0 interest in going to a top med school. Leaving that world after graduation was fantastic

It helped to have someone going through the same experiences who I could just vent to. Just someone to help debrief, complain to, get angry with, and just generally normalize everything you are thinking. Then ground you. The people surrounding you make a huge difference

 

[deleted390966]

I'm a current MS2, and never failed an exam or rotation. I took a leave of absence last fall, which has stretched into five months and finally turning a corner on whether to drop out (I think it's time, despite $100k for two years at a private med school. Probably the heaviest factor in my decision). A lot of people have said I should 'just finish and then decide.' .. but that's a ton of money to then not become a physician. I can't transfer to a public school, because we are on a one-year classroom curriculum.

My school is giving me time to sort it out. There aren't too many recent threads on dropping out years, but I appreciate so much those who have done so in the past! I wanted to share my story, and welcome any input/advice from anyone else struggling with the decision. I've started putting my thoughts here if anyone wants to answer anonymously. MedSchoolDropOut.com

Wait... according to your blog post, you dropped out for your long-term relationship?

 

[HelpPleaseMD]

Wow, this is very similar to what my experience with mental health issues has been like. I did well before med school, and looking back, it was because I had a strong support system with me in high school and college. Med school turned out to be a far more isolating experience, most people (including myself) were so busy trying to stay afloat, it was difficult to go out and do fun things with classmates on a regular basis. Also, lots more students were married, had families and just were in different places in their lives, which made it a bit harder to develop relationships. I also went from a small close knit undergrad to a larger research university med school, and I realize now, that large school environment doesn't suit me, it made the isolation that much more difficult.

I ended up going to a smaller satellite campus for my clinical years, and it made a world of difference. Once there, I opened up about my psych issues, and I too was very surprised at how accepting and kind my mentors were. They helped me find care, start treatment, and the smaller environment made me feel much more at home. Now I feel much better.
However I have the same questions...how will I handle residency? My health deteriorated the last few years, and I wonder if it might hurt my health even more down the road.

Yet, there's a few things that are different now and they give me some confidence moving forward. I didn't know I had a mental illness until I got to med school, I always had some issues mentally but I never considered myself to have a problem cause I still did well in high school and college. But as Goro said, med school is a furnace and it brought everything out ot the surface. Unlike before starting med school, for residency, I'm aware that I need to keep my mental health in check. I'm even looking at specialties which might have more regular hours, to allow for some balance in my life, and residency programs that are smaller and close knit. These are things I didn't realize before starting med school, but I'm trying to learn from the setbacks. The things is, the future is uncertain, but I do know that after all the ups and downs, I still want to be here, and I'm thankful to be capable and have the chance to try.

Plus, we need physicians of all backgrounds. Your depression likely gives you an understanding of mental illness that not all doctors may have, and you might empathize with some of your patients really well because of it.

definitely agree. I remember med school being a particularly isolating experience probably more so at the OP's school given the structure of the curriculum. You come out different...not sure if better, but definitely different. I remember being a nervous wreck every week from the weekly quizzes as a MS1 "needing" to honor.

OP if you do decide that medicine is for you, it does get better. being a med student is very hard

 

[Affiche]

How do you know med school isn't the thing causing the depression in the first place?

You're assuming your med school had no role in contributing to mental illness that wasn't there before.

I think you're misunderstanding what depression is. A trigger for a depressive episode is not a cause of depression. Depression is much more complex than that, unfortunately.

Edit: eek! After reading through more of the recent posts I think a few ppl might misunderstand what depression is. You don't become depressed because you don't like med school; you become unhappy with your decision/experience. Depression is much more multifaceted than that and is a real mental illness, not a fleeting emotion.

 

[Mad Jack]

You're stuck now. I've seen this happen to people before and they all finish because they have to or the money/debt load will ruin them.

You should have realized you weren't cut out for med school beforehand. Thanks for taking up a spot.

Mean, I know. But, truth hurts and we're all thinking it so I'll say it.

You don't know what you can handle until you push yourself to your limits. First year nearly broke me- hell, it did break me. Kept going, and now I'm a much stronger person for having suffered through it. You don't know your limits until you're at them, and sometimes not even until you are past them.

 

[Mad Jack]

I think you're misunderstanding what depression is. A trigger for a depressive episode is not a cause of depression. Depression is much more complex than that, unfortunately.

Edit: eek! After reading through more of the recent posts I think a few ppl might misunderstand what depression is. You don't become depressed because you don't like med school; you become unhappy with your decision/experience. Depression is much more multifaceted than that and is a real mental illness, not a fleeting emotion.

Yeah, a lot of people don't get that depression isn't a response to things, it is a thing that changes your response to things, and it's often unpleasant and unpredictable. I'm one of those rare people that "got over" being depressed one day, but not for any reason. I couldn't remember a single moment in my life that I was happy until my mid 20s, because depression colored every moment. I just woke up one day and it was gone, don't know how or why, I just felt better, and even at my lowest lows of medical school it hasn't come back. Depression is a fickle thing that we really don't understand, and to say that someone shouldn't push themselves because they have a history of depression is fairly ignorant of the complexities of the disease itself. I went through some of the worst stresses in my life after my depression subsided (medical school, a dissolving engagement, and much more I don't care to get into), and I never ended up depressed again, because depression is much deeper than an event that makes you sad. It's really something that's hard to understand unless you've been there I guess.

Anyway, to the OP, don't continue if the road is paved with misery. Or do continue if you think you'll round a corner- either way that's not something some randoms on a forum can help you decide.

 

[Stagg737]

To answer several questions/themes coming up:

1. I'm in on-going treatment, and feel my old self again. Not the first time. I've had depression before medical school, and received treatment. I put that it in my personal statement, and admins were fully aware (see earlier post)

2. Before coming in, I had MS in microbiology, worked as an EMT and full-time clinical research tech. My workload wasn't higher now than in my life before, but the environment is. Research is great, but I am an idealistic person driven by patient care. (So medicine seems a perfect combination of both, right?). Some of the positive feedback on rotations was that I'm excellent with MI.

It's not a school for primary care and save-the-world-hugs. I don't judge that I should be. But I am definitely missing that support system. It’s something I could not have understood before coming here.

3. At our school, MS1 =1 classroom, MS2 = clinical year (then Step 1), MS3 = research year. MS4 = Rotations. I've completed MS1 and half of Ms2. When I began feeling better, I decided to use the time until August to study and take Step1. But strangely, I can't find my groove and my passion. If I feel fine, why can't dive into the material like i've been doing for years?


Questions I'm sorting through...
Is there some kind of sub-acute depression that still needs to heal, or is my body telling me this is the wrong career, regardless of my drive and passion that I still feel I have?

Will it return when I go back? My last experience wasn't triggered by stress. I acknowledge, the major issue is going to such a highly competitive school, rather than the workload. Being surrounded by people with ridiculous accomplilshments. Would I have done better (emotionally) at a different school? Can I use CBT to address the perfectionism that we all deal with, so that it doesn't have such an impact? Was that even the problem to begin with?


They don't necessarily have answers. But maybe it's time I put them out in the world, instead of just my head. Messy.

No one is going to be able to tell you the specifics of your condition other than yourself and your pyschiatrist, and only you can decide when and if you'll be ready to go back to school. To the bolded, who cares? Other people's past accomplishments don't reflect their abilities as med students, and even if they did, it shouldn't affect how you prepare yourself for tests or how you learn the material. You could be surrounded by nobel prize winners and it still shouldn't affect the work you're putting in and knowing that you're doing everything you can to be the best doctor you can.

Figure out how to ignore everybody else's achievements/whatever and it sounds like you'll be a lot happier.

I think you're misunderstanding what depression is. A trigger for a depressive episode is not a cause of depression. Depression is much more complex than that, unfortunately.

Edit: eek! After reading through more of the recent posts I think a few ppl might misunderstand what depression is. You don't become depressed because you don't like med school; you become unhappy with your decision/experience. Depression is much more multifaceted than that and is a real mental illness, not a fleeting emotion.

You can definitely become depressed from not liking med school or being under any stress long enough. You just don't develop a depressive disorder because of it. It also depends what you consider 'fleeting', a few days? No. A few weeks or months? Definitely.

 

[jeffk805dent]

You don't know what you can handle until you push yourself to your limits. First year nearly broke me- hell, it did break me. Kept going, and now I'm a much stronger person for having suffered through it. You don't know your limits until you're at them, and sometimes not even until you are past them.

Kind of like how in Dark Knight Rises how Bane broke Batman but then Batman came back up (literally) to beat Bane and Talia.

 

[Mad Jack]

Kind of like how in Dark Knight Rises how Bane broke Batman but then Batman came back up (literally) to beat Bane and Talia.

 

[TxsMed14]

Other people's past accomplishments don't reflect their abilities as med students, and even if they did, it shouldn't affect how you prepare yourself for tests or how you learn the material..

I mean during medical school. It was hard not compare oneself to a student doing this and training for a competition, or is a single dad, had a baby. etc. And I didn't realize how unwilling classmates are to discuss difficulties.

It can make a person think ... I must be doing this wrong. Obviously, I have more perspective now. But in the pressure cooker, it was isolating to say to another classmate, "isn't this rough?", and hear - 'I guess.. I could see how you feel that way.' That is why I do CBT (cognitive based therapy) which is about re-framing psychological reference points. It takes work, but it's changed my life.

Anyway, it was contributing, but not the main issue. I'd go back and rock it.. but for a frustrating inability to get excited about the material again. Maybe PTMSD (post-traumatic medical school disorder).

 

[IlDestriero]

As others have said, take a year off, get evaluated, undergo treatment +/- medication and get stabilized. Then, with a clear head, assess your priorities in the context of your degree(s), experience, options, etc. and decide on a career path. Medicine is a stressful path, it's a grinder for people who are mentally healthy, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not for you.
Anyone can overcome a $100k debt. To suggest that it is ruinous or that there is no going back now is ridiculous. If someone is motivated enough and bright enough to get into medical school, they could be successful in many good paying careers.
Good luck.


--
Il Destriero

 

[fancymylotus]

As others have said, take a year off, get evaluated, undergo treatment +/- medication and get stabilized. Then, with a clear head, assess your priorities in the context of your degree(s), experience, options, etc. and decide on a career path. Medicine is a stressful path, it's a grinder for people who are mentally healthy, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not for you.
Anyone can overcome a $100k debt. To suggest that it is ruinous or that there is no going back now is ridiculous. If someone is motivated enough and bright enough to get into medical school, they could be successful in many good paying careers.
Good luck.


--
Il Destriero

OP, listen to Etherman and @Goro and if gyngyn posts in here, listen to that too.




Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[moisne]

Here is your problem - you are using this time to study for step1... I'm not psychiatrist or qualified for anything - but I can tell you... 99% of my classmate who are studying for step 1 feels awful - and by FA definition - lol we all have major depressive disorder.

Make sure you keep doing things you love (unless you are in dedicated - then ... I don't know brute force your way. I don't even want to wake up anymore). Maybe after step when you go do research/rotations - you will be reminded medicine is more than uworld+FA?

 

[TxsMed14]

Wait... according to your blog post, you dropped out for your long-term relationship?

Oh.. no. It was just a metaphor. ; )

I'm glad to say everyone at my school has been supportive since I shared the page on fb. I've heard from two classmates currently on a leave of absences. I guess schools need to have an LOA club? So anyone going through the same thing.. definitely not alone.

I wrote more on my in-patient experience here. Highly recommend the Menninger Clinic Professionals in Crisis program. It targets high stress careers like M.D./DOs, lawyers etc.. Unfortunately, mental health care in the U.S. is a disaster. Real treatment was a hefty fee we had to pay upfront. But school insurance covered about half the cost.

https://medschooldropout.com/2016/04/08/are-you-pregnant-you-can-tell-me/

 

[zeppelinpage4]

Oh.. no. It was just a metaphor. ; )

I'm glad to say everyone at my school has been supportive since I shared the page on fb. I've heard from two classmates currently on a leave of absences. I guess schools need to have an LOA club? So anyone going through the same thing.. definitely not alone.

I wrote more on my in-patient experience here. Highly recommend the Menninger Clinic Professionals in Crisis program. It targets high stress careers like M.D./DOs, lawyers etc.. Unfortunately, mental health care in the U.S. is a disaster. Real treatment was a hefty fee we had to pay upfront. But school insurance covered about half the cost.
View attachment 202240
https://medschooldropout.com/2016/04/08/are-you-pregnant-you-can-tell-me/

Let's start an LOA club on SDN. xD
I had to go on one too a while back but the more I talked about it, the more I realized I wasn't the only one, and my other classmates and I definitely bonded over that.

And absolutely agree! Part of the reason I waited so long to get treatment was because finding a provider was really difficult. I'd make lots of phone calls and keep hitting dead ends, either they didn't take my insurance, or they were incredibly expensive, or I wouldn't get an appointment until the following month.
The CAPs service at my school is a long commute from my campus as well, so I didn't want to deal with driving far for my appointments.
Fortunately, my family and my school have helped make temporary arrangements for the short term, so it has worked out.

But I can't imagine how uninsured patients, or people without financial support get through in this system. It's opened my eyes.

 

[pd1112]

I think you're misunderstanding what depression is. A trigger for a depressive episode is not a cause of depression. Depression is much more complex than that, unfortunately.

Edit: eek! After reading through more of the recent posts I think a few ppl might misunderstand what depression is. You don't become depressed because you don't like med school; you become unhappy with your decision/experience. Depression is much more multifaceted than that and is a real mental illness, not a fleeting emotion.

Actually, it sounds like you misunderstand what depression is. For one, the diagnostic criteria are subjective. Also, nothing is definitively known (re: cause vs effect) about the observed behaviors, emotions and neurobiology before/during/after an episode, not to mention the genetics (how many who have admitted to suffering depression in this thread alone have had gene sequencing?). Point is, no one knows.

 

[Affiche]

Actually, it sounds like you misunderstand what depression is. For one, the diagnostic criteria are subjective. Also, nothing is definitively known (re: cause vs effect) about the observed behaviors, emotions and neurobiology before/during/after an episode, not to mention the genetics (how many who have admitted to suffering depression in this thread alone have had gene sequencing?). Point is, no one knows.

Having been depressed before and being in a family (non-biological) where depression runs rampant, I can tell you that I am not confused about what depression is or how it alters your response to things. Sure, a lot of the hard science is unknown, but I think it's a stretch to say that a perfectly healthy person enters medical school, decides they don't like it, and then all of a sudden has developed depression because of medical school. To me, that sounds like a serious misunderstanding of how complex depression actually is, which I think we actually agree on.

 

[esob]

When I look at my premed classmates around me, it doesn't surprise me that many crack under the strain of Med School. When Goro says "med school is a furnace" then in my mind I think "the pre-med track during undergrad should be a furnace too." I'm working 40 - 60 hr weeks, taking care of 3 kids (2 that are special needs), volunteering an average of 9 hrs per month and taking 5 classes. If it weren't for the fact that I am now an episode behind on the Walking Dead, I would probably think this whole venture was simply too easy

 

[bipolarivy]

Let's start an LOA club on SDN. xD
I had to go on one too a while back but the more I talked about it, the more I realized I wasn't the only one, and my other classmates and I definitely bonded over that.

As an MS4 with bipolar disorder and was diagnosed early in med school, had to take a LOA, and then went on to match at my top residency program I can tell you that it's possible and don't give up as yet. During my time off, I looked for as much inspiration as I could but barely found any. I wished there were other med-students dealing with mental illness who I could reach out to.

Anyway, my main advice to you OP is to not let your illness rob you of your hopes and dreams. Med school is tough, but don't doubt the resilience of the human spirit. Please make sure you follow whatever treatment plan you are on. Don't make major decisions while under the influence of depression

 

[bipolarivy]

Let's start an LOA club on SDN. xD
I had to go on one too a while back but the more I talked about it, the more I realized I wasn't the only one, and my other classmates and I definitely bonded over that.

As an MS4 with bipolar disorder and was diagnosed early in med school, had to take a LOA, and then went on to match at my top residency program I can tell you that it's possible and don't give up as yet. During my time off, I looked for as much inspiration as I could but barely found any. I wished there were other med-students dealing with mental illness who I could reach out to.

Anyway, my main advice to you OP is to not let your illness rob you of your hopes and dreams. Med school is tough, but don't doubt the resilience of the human spirit. Please make sure you follow whatever treatment plan you are on. Don't make major decisions while under the influence of depression

 

[W19]

Almost everyone in med school suffers from depression at some point . Of course there is a spectrum. We are being scrutinized at every level...This training is brutal man!

 

[W19]

definitely agree. I remember med school being a particularly isolating experience probably more so at the OP's school given the structure of the curriculum. You come out different...not sure if better, but definitely different. I remember being a nervous wreck every week from the weekly quizzes as a MS1 "needing" to honor.

OP if you do decide that medicine is for you, it does get better. being a med student is very hard

Really! I thought residency would be even worse...

 

[Rekt]

Really! I thought residency would be even worse...

You'll at least be undergoing direct meaningful training for your (hopefully specialty of choice) for which you've sacrificed several years for. Even with painful hours and low pay, it should be worth it.

 

[Wordead]

Having been depressed before and being in a family (non-biological) where depression runs rampant, I can tell you that I am not confused about what depression is or how it alters your response to things. Sure, a lot of the hard science is unknown, but I think it's a stretch to say that a perfectly healthy person enters medical school, decides they don't like it, and then all of a sudden has developed depression because of medical school. To me, that sounds like a serious misunderstanding of how complex depression actually is, which I think we actually agree on.

Youve experienced depression and thus can explain the etiology?

Do cancer patients become oncologists then?

 

[sylvanthus]

You'll at least be undergoing direct meaningful training for your (hopefully specialty of choice) for which you've sacrificed several years for. Even with painful hours and low pay, it should be worth it.

You say that now...

 

[Affiche]

Youve experienced depression and thus can explain the etiology?

Do cancer patients become oncologists then?

Very poor analogy. There isn't a common misconception of feeling cancerous like there is feeling depressed. I'm not sure why what I said is so disagreeable; stating that something stressful causes depression logically follows that if you remove that cause the depression is cured, and that's obviously oversimplifying the issue. I'm not saying stress (or a stressful event) doesn't play into it, just that there is more to the cause of depression than ''I don't like this one stressful thing''.

 

[SouthParkStudio]

And sorry to soapbox, but this is a classic example of why I tell people with a history of mental illness who are considering a career in Medicine to think very hard about their career choice. Mental illness is the # 1 reason my school loses people to dismissal or withdrawal.

Or...we could like make med school not so sh***

 

[SouthParkStudio]

I mean during medical school. It was hard not compare oneself to a student doing this and training for a competition, or is a single dad, had a baby. etc. And I didn't realize how unwilling classmates are to discuss difficulties.

It can make a person think ... I must be doing this wrong. Obviously, I have more perspective now. But in the pressure cooker, it was isolating to say to another classmate, "isn't this rough?", and hear - 'I guess.. I could see how you feel that way.' That is why I do CBT (cognitive based therapy) which is about re-framing psychological reference points. It takes work, but it's changed my life.

Anyway, it was contributing, but not the main issue. I'd go back and rock it.. but for a frustrating inability to get excited about the material again. Maybe PTMSD (post-traumatic medical school disorder).

I feel the same way you do.

I HATE med school and want to drop out. But, I cannot since I have 150k+ of debt that I cannot reasonably pay off if I were to leave med school.

My classmates are all jerks. Everyone is aiming for super competitive specialties because of money. We all tear each other down. People's favorite pass time is gossiping (the boys especially). I feel isolated and cannot talk to my classmates about any real problem because we just tear each other apart. And this is P/F school too. IDK why everyone is acting like this. It drives me nuts. And we have had 10% of our class actively try to commit suicide and ended up in the ED. Another huge portion is burnt out and depressed. Despite all this, people still attack each other. They are relentless vultures who will not stop. Whenever we ask for mercy from the workload, they say too bad and tell us to deal with it. There is no flexibility. I want to match into something that my school doesn't have, so they try to put up all these roadblocks whenever I am pursuing my passion. It's awful. I hate med school. I hate my malignant program. I just hate every aspect of it. I am genuinely unhappy.

So I just hang out with people outside of med school. I never liked premeds and I HATE med students. They give me perspective and they are lot of fun to hang out with since they aren't always gossiping about classmates or complaining about the match.

I obsess over fantasies about leaving med school all the time. OBSESS! If I could leave, I would run. But I am trapped. Nothing I can do. Just finish, do residency, and be a burn out doctor. I am plotting my leave from medicine. 10 more years left. Afterward, I cannot be a clinician. I just can't. Maybe do a shift here and there, because I need to eat. But I am leaving clinical medicine. I will take a lesser paying job because I HATE medicine. I am over it. I am not cut out to be a doctor. The culture of medicine is too malignant for me. It eats me from the inside out. The general consensus from my deans and clinical faculty is that they think I will be a good kind and caring doctor, but med school has crushed any and all desire to do this. I just hate almost every moment of it.

tldr:

So my main point is I hate med school too. Although I don't know your exact specifics, I kinda feel your pain, and talking to people outside of med school really helps. They keep me sane and provide balance. They appreciate me and I appreciate them. I wish you the best and there is no shame in dropping out of med school. You would actually be very brave.

 

[Rekt]

You say that now...

I know. Even though I'm in top 15% of my class now, I'm still on the brink of dropping out every day. Have to believe something to keep me going.

 

[futuremdforme]

My classmates are all jerks. Everyone is aiming for super competitive specialties because of money. We all tear each other down. People's favorite pass time is gossiping (the boys especially). I feel isolated and cannot talk to my classmates about any real problem because we just tear each other apart. And this is P/F school too. IDK why everyone is acting like this. It drives me nuts. And we have had 10% of our class actively try to commit suicide and ended up in the ED. Another huge portion is burnt out and depressed. Despite all this, people still attack each other. They are relentless vultures who will not stop. Whenever we ask for mercy from the workload, they say too bad and tell us to deal with it. There is no flexibility. I want to match into something that my school doesn't have, so they try to put up all these roadblocks whenever I am pursuing my passion. It's awful. I hate med school. I hate my malignant program. I just hate every aspect of it. I am genuinely unhappy.

So I just hang out with people outside of med school. I never liked premeds and I HATE med students. They give me perspective and they are lot of fun to hang out with since they aren't always gossiping about classmates or complaining about the match.

I obsess over fantasies about leaving med school all the time. OBSESS! If I could leave, I would run. But I am trapped. Nothing I can do. Just finish, do residency, and be a burn out doctor. I am plotting my leave from medicine. 10 more years left. Afterward, I cannot be a clinician. I just can't. Maybe do a shift here and there, because I need to eat. But I am leaving clinical medicine. I will take a lesser paying job because I HATE medicine. I am over it. I am not cut out to be a doctor. The culture of medicine is too malignant for me. It eats me from the inside out. The general consensus from my deans and clinical faculty is that they think I will be a good kind and caring doctor, but med school has crushed any and all desire to do this. I just hate almost every moment of it.

That's insane. Not all schools are like that, and I'm sorry that yours is. If you really hate it, you might be able to find a non-clinical job without doing residency, but you might end up liking medicine if you end up somewhere different. If it's just the culture that makes you hate it, but you like the interactions with patients, you might have had a really different experience somewhere else, and that's such a shame it's been so negative.

 

[Goro]

I've long believed that med school should be five years, instead of four. With a tuition for four years, not five.

Or...we could like make med school not so sh***

 

[Rekt]

I've long believed that med school should be five years, instead of four. With a tuition for four years, not five.

Since you're a professor, do you believe there is material that you teach that could be easily removed from the curriculum?

 

[Psai]

I feel the same way you do.

I HATE med school and want to drop out. But, I cannot since I have 150k+ of debt that I cannot reasonably pay off if I were to leave med school.

My classmates are all jerks. Everyone is aiming for super competitive specialties because of money. We all tear each other down. People's favorite pass time is gossiping (the boys especially). I feel isolated and cannot talk to my classmates about any real problem because we just tear each other apart. And this is P/F school too. IDK why everyone is acting like this. It drives me nuts. And we have had 10% of our class actively try to commit suicide and ended up in the ED. Another huge portion is burnt out and depressed. Despite all this, people still attack each other. They are relentless vultures who will not stop. Whenever we ask for mercy from the workload, they say too bad and tell us to deal with it. There is no flexibility. I want to match into something that my school doesn't have, so they try to put up all these roadblocks whenever I am pursuing my passion. It's awful. I hate med school. I hate my malignant program. I just hate every aspect of it. I am genuinely unhappy.

So I just hang out with people outside of med school. I never liked premeds and I HATE med students. They give me perspective and they are lot of fun to hang out with since they aren't always gossiping about classmates or complaining about the match.

I obsess over fantasies about leaving med school all the time. OBSESS! If I could leave, I would run. But I am trapped. Nothing I can do. Just finish, do residency, and be a burn out doctor. I am plotting my leave from medicine. 10 more years left. Afterward, I cannot be a clinician. I just can't. Maybe do a shift here and there, because I need to eat. But I am leaving clinical medicine. I will take a lesser paying job because I HATE medicine. I am over it. I am not cut out to be a doctor. The culture of medicine is too malignant for me. It eats me from the inside out. The general consensus from my deans and clinical faculty is that they think I will be a good kind and caring doctor, but med school has crushed any and all desire to do this. I just hate almost every moment of it.

tldr:

So my main point is I hate med school too. Although I don't know your exact specifics, I kinda feel your pain, and talking to people outside of med school really helps. They keep me sane and provide balance. They appreciate me and I appreciate them. I wish you the best and there is no shame in dropping out of med school. You would actually be very brave.

Bro wtf kind of med school do you go to

 

[ortnakas]

Very poor analogy. There isn't a common misconception of feeling cancerous like there is feeling depressed. I'm not sure why what I said is so disagreeable; stating that something stressful causes depression logically follows that if you remove that cause the depression is cured, and that's obviously oversimplifying the issue. I'm not saying stress (or a stressful event) doesn't play into it, just that there is more to the cause of depression than ''I don't like this one stressful thing''.

Agree 100%. Normal stress can be "cured" with removing the stressor; normal worry can be "cured" with removing the trigger. Pathologic depression and anxiety are much more complicated than that.

I've long believed that med school should be five years, instead of four. With a tuition for four years, not five.

Meanwhile, there's a thread about trying to condense med school into three years! (Which I'm adamantly against-- as a second year I'm very glad pre-clinical is only two years, but if you would have crammed anything else into first year I wouldn't have made it).

 

[Wordead]

Very poor analogy. There isn't a common misconception of feeling cancerous like there is feeling depressed. I'm not sure why what I said is so disagreeable; stating that something stressful causes depression logically follows that if you remove that cause the depression is cured, and that's obviously oversimplifying the issue. I'm not saying stress (or a stressful event) doesn't play into it, just that there is more to the cause of depression than ''I don't like this one stressful thing''.

No, what you were saying was that you knew what depression was and how it alters your response to things because you've been depressed and you have a mopey family. Which is BS, because 1. nobody knows those things and 2. being depressed doesnt make you an expert on depression. That's all. You are lecturing med students and residents about not understanding depression.

 

[Affiche]

No, what you were saying was that you knew what depression was and how it alters your response to things because you've been depressed and you have a mopey family. Which is BS, because 1. nobody knows those things and 2. being depressed doesnt make you an expert on depression. That's all. You are lecturing med students and residents about not understanding depression.

lol yes, I have a ''mopey'' family. Whatever, dude.

 

[jl lin]

Wtf?

There is a difference between having mental illness and going into medicine for the wrong reasons.

Some people may BECOME depressed because they realized that medicine isn't a freebie into the top 2% and that it actually takes a lot of time, sacrifice, and actual interest and passion to learn medicine at the end of the day.

Seek out what is causing you to become depressed, if it really is the fact that you don't like medicine at all and did it only because you thought you'd be rich later then dropping out is the best option. Otherwise, seek psychiatry help.

Right. So what is most logical is figuring out the chicken or the egg, which won't happen until the person gets enough effective treatment, and that will probably still take some time. I believe the person will figure out if he/she focuses on getting healthy and well and getting some distance and insight. If treatment is helping him or her, and s/he still gets a sick, twisted feeling in her/his gut over the thought of going back to medical school, maybe it is something within him/her indicating it's not what s/he is mean to do. But a person can't get to the place until he/she does the work of treatment and gets the right kind of distance and perspective. I personally think that many people don't realize that mental, emotional, and spiritual work takes time, just like getting into sound physical shape and wellness does. You can't rush it. Awareness and readiness is crucial.

 

[Goro]

I don't know it it would equal a year's worth of curriculum, but everything related to labs in Med Micro (no doctor cultures bugs anymore, the lab does that), and all histopathology. You can learn how to distinguish between an astrocytoma and blue cell tumor when you're in training for Pathology.

If anything, more stuff stuff keeps getting discovered!

Since you're a professor, do you believe there is material that you teach that could be easily removed from the curriculum?

 

[jl lin]

I think you're misunderstanding what depression is. A trigger for a depressive episode is not a cause of depression. Depression is much more complex than that, unfortunately.

Edit: eek! After reading through more of the recent posts I think a few ppl might misunderstand what depression is. You don't become depressed because you don't like med school; you become unhappy with your decision/experience. Depression is much more multifaceted than that and is a real mental illness, not a fleeting emotion.

^ The above is absolutely true. Circumstances alone do not cause major depression, but they can influence the awareness of it's presence and exacerbate things. I personally believe that major depression is mostly organic in nature--more physiological--neuro-chemical, but it is definitely influenced by stressful life events and such.

 

[jl lin]

Agree 100%. Normal stress can be "cured" with removing the stressor; normal worry can be "cured" with removing the trigger. Pathologic depression and anxiety are much more complicated than that.

Yup.

 

[Psai]

Yup.

I was beginning to worry about you, I thought of you this morning and wondered what happened

 

[NontradCA]

Why can't everyone on SDN just love one another ? No wonder you're all depressed.

 

[W19]

I don't know it it would equal a year's worth of curriculum, but everything related to labs in Med Micro (no doctor cultures bugs anymore, the lab does that), and all histopathology. You can learn how to distinguish between an astrocytoma and blue cell tumor when you're in training for Pathology.

If anything, more stuff stuff keeps getting discovered!

Don't you have professionalism course and other interdisciplinary BS at your school so doctors can learn how to interact with ancillary staff?

We had 30+ hours of professionalism, but we only spent 6 hours in biostats... You gotta love med school priority!

Preclinical can be done in 18 months and the other 18 months can be used for clerkship...

 

[Goro]

Don't know how much time is taken for professionalism, but for IPE, we only give it lip service. In fact, even though it's an accreditation requirement, the powers that won't do anything about it until COCA sanctions us.

Don't you have professionalism course and other interdisciplinary BS at your school so doctors can learn how to interact with ancillary staff?

We had 30+ hours of professionalism, but we only spent 6 hours in biostats... You gotta love med school priority!

Preclinical can be done in 18 months and the other 18 months can be used for clerkship...

 

[zeppelinpage4]

As an MS4 with bipolar disorder and was diagnosed early in med school, had to take a LOA, and then went on to match at my top residency program I can tell you that it's possible and don't give up as yet. During my time off, I looked for as much inspiration as I could but barely found any. I wished there were other med-students dealing with mental illness who I could reach out to.

Anyway, my main advice to you OP is to not let your illness rob you of your hopes and dreams. Med school is tough, but don't doubt the resilience of the human spirit. Please make sure you follow whatever treatment plan you are on. Don't make major decisions while under the influence of depression

Wow! I definitely needed to read this, just knowing it's possible helps keep me motivated. Sorry you had to go it alone, but I do hope things only get better for you moving forward! Congrats on matching!
I feel like many students with these issues don't openly talk about it, so it's hard to reach out to one another. I'm glad there are sites likes this where we can openly discuss and support each other through.

 

[Anicetus]

Why can't everyone on SDN just love one another ? No wonder you're all depressed.

Not until the day they make residency choice 100% a lottery enforced by the government. Have decades of that go by until the people rebel to give the people more free choice, in which the laws of supply and demand then take over forcing us back into a cycle of competing against one another for desirable lives and locations since there is never enough cake for everyone.

 

[Stagg737]

Don't you have professionalism course and other interdisciplinary BS at your school so doctors can learn how to interact with ancillary staff?

Lol, no. We're learning how to be physicians and how to interact with and diagnose our patients, not how to play nice with co-workers.