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no0dles

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Hey all,

I'm currently considering the HPSP scholarship with the Army, but I want to get a few questions addressed before I take the offer. The biggest concern that I have is about my future as a potential EM physician in the Army.
  1. Can any current Army EM physician comment on the quality of their residency training? Also, which hospital is known to be the most competitive one?
  2. During active duty, where do EM physicians practice? Are they deployed to work in an ED whether you're in US or foreign country? Or are you working essentially as a primary care physician in a small clinic...
  3. How do you prevent skill atrophy when deployed as an EM physician. Is moonlighting at a civilian ED an option to maintain/hone your skills?
I look forward to your responses and thank you for taking the time.

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1. Not an EM doc but army EM residency is competitive last year there were 1.7 applicants for every spot. One of the most sought after residencies in the military

2. Practice anywhere they need you. Sometimes it'll be a small clinic sometimes it'll be at San Antonio. Just depends on position openings around the time you are finished with training. You could wind up in a job where you are the battalion/brigade surgeon for two years.

3. I know several physicians who moonlight to keep their skills up, not just EM docs. Moonlighting is an option if your command approves it
 
Hey all,

I'm currently considering the HPSP scholarship with the Army, but I want to get a few questions addressed before I take the offer. The biggest concern that I have is about my future as a potential EM physician in the Army.
  1. Can any current Army EM physician comment on the quality of their residency training? Also, which hospital is known to be the most competitive one?
  2. During active duty, where do EM physicians practice? Are they deployed to work in an ED whether you're in US or foreign country? Or are you working essentially as a primary care physician in a small clinic...
  3. How do you prevent skill atrophy when deployed as an EM physician. Is moonlighting at a civilian ED an option to maintain/hone your skills?
I look forward to your responses and thank you for taking the time.
noodles - have you already received the HPSP scholarship and been scrolled?

If you take the HPSP scholarship make sure you have a backup specialty to EM and are prepared to complete a PGY1 and a GMO tour or two. The mean Comlex 1/2 for EM (2016 graduates) is 562/560. HPSP recipients are required to apply to the Army PGY1 match. All Army GME locations are competitive for EM.

From the HPSP GME Slideshow 2016
After completion of PGY-1 year if not selected for GME training
• Many US and overseas locations

• Variety of assignments:
• Clinic based
• Operational
• Flight surgery

Minimum time on station requirements to resume graduate medical education training:
• 12 months: hardship assignments
• 24 months: other assignments

Bold is mine - many GMOs serve more than 24 months as a GMO. If Slevin's number of applicants is correct at 1.7 applicants per 'spot', there were thirty selected for EM and 21 applicants that had to apply to a different specialty that did not fill or do a PGY1/TY only and then serve as a GMO. With so few EM residency positions, make sure you would be happy in a less competitive back up specialty or to complete your service obligation as a GMO.
 
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Bold is mine - many GMOs serve more than 24 months as a GMO. If Slevin's number of applicants is correct at 1.7 applicants per 'spot', there were thirty selected for EM and 21 applicants that had to apply to a different specialty that did not fill or do a PGY1/TY only and then serve as a GMO. With so few EM residency positions, make sure you would be happy in a less competitive back up specialty or to complete your service obligation as a GMO.

Actually for the match that occurred in 2015 for a residency start date in July 2016 for GMO's there was about a 20% selection rate if I remember correctly. I think there were about 6 slots held open for GMO's but 28 applied I believe. The GME slideshow only tells you info regarding graduating seniors and that's the 1.7 apps per slot o initially mentioned. GMO's applying for residency is a different ballgame entirely and not as straight forward when it comes to the match in terms of number of spots held open.

Basically there is not a set number of GMO spots held open a variety of factors need to be considered including how many MS4's applied for a particular residency, did that residency fill, how many GMO's are applying and how many points did each of those GMO's accumulate when compared to their peers.
 
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Hey all,

I'm currently considering the HPSP scholarship with the Army, but I want to get a few questions addressed before I take the offer. The biggest concern that I have is about my future as a potential EM physician in the Army.
  1. Can any current Army EM physician comment on the quality of their residency training? Also, which hospital is known to be the most competitive one?
  2. During active duty, where do EM physicians practice? Are they deployed to work in an ED whether you're in US or foreign country? Or are you working essentially as a primary care physician in a small clinic...
  3. How do you prevent skill atrophy when deployed as an EM physician. Is moonlighting at a civilian ED an option to maintain/hone your skills?
I look forward to your responses and thank you for taking the time.


Hi Noodles,

I am actually a Army Healthcare Recruiter. I think it may be best to put you in contact with a actual emergency doctor who is serving now in the Army who took the HPSP. Send me a private message and I will get you set up with a couple of contacts I have.
 
Read: "don't listen to these guys. I have a couple of canned promoters who happen to be ER docs who you should speak with."

Really, though, speak with as many guys as you can, listen to what they say but always remember how you met them.
 
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Having recently received an acceptance, and being prior service army, I am considering HPSP. Or was. I read another thread (Armyhealth was part of that, too) and I initially immediately said "oh, never mind," when reading about the problems with speciality. Especially with two of my top three choices specifically mentioned as having far fewer slots and how many self select to weaker specialties.

But then I remembered... if you don't match in the military, can't you try in the civilian match, where the numbers would be easier? Didn't the army do away with mandatory GMO tours?

Let me divert the flaming: I understand that I understand nothing, and am asking for information, not to be called an idiot.

For me it seems like the prior service would be a huge bonus if I did HPSP- starting as an O-3E, and being almost retirement eligible after residency and payback... it seems like a possibility. But I refuse to give up any chances at any specific residencies, especially because while I do have stuff in mind, I really have no idea what I want to practice, so I don't want to suddenly realize a love for pathology or some surgical specialty and have no chance of matching because of the army not allowing me to civilian match.

Edit: Just because I don't want to start a post to ask this question... I have searched and searched. One place said no, one place said yes. Has anyone definitively answered... Can I take the GI Bill.. get the HPSP to pay first, and then get the school to reimburse me for the GI Bill payment on tuition? I am almost certain I get the GI Bill housing stipend/whatever the monthly payment is on post 9/11 payments in addition to the HPSP allowance, right? If I were to do that. I am almost certain I won't having read the horror stories of matching on this site.
 
As someone who can retire within a year or two? of finishing your payback, HPSP might be worth the gamble for a high-priced med school. That said, military service is not compatible with "I refuse to give up any chances at specific residencies." They will not force you to train in an undesired specialty but they will not just let you go train in whatever you want as a civilian. If you fail to select for a residency of your choosing via the GMESB (for either a military slot or permission to seek a civilian slot), you will complete an internship and then become a GMO. After completing your military service, you are free to apply for any residency just like any other civilian (see @j4pac's explanation of the process in the stickies). Alternatively, you'll get what you want from the .mil up front or apply back to military residency after a couple years as ago GMO but this is tough in competitive specialties. Its definitely a bit of a gamble but probably a good financial decision if you already have 10+ years of service.

If your school isn't expensive, the other option is Navy HSCP (does that still exist, anyone?). That's sweet cause the school years count to retirement.

As a veteran, you may have the option of using the GI Bill and Voc Rehab and remaining a civilian. If you can make Voc Rehab work for med school, you could save the GIB for residency.
 
3rd Year med student here from USUHS (military's medical school), I'll be interviewing EM this summer and just wanted to offer a few more pieces of up-to-date information that haven't been mentioned for EM in the Army

1. Locations: 4 residency programs - San Antonio, TX (probably the most competitive to get into, only level 1 trauma center for Army EM), Ft. Lewis, WA (just as competitive as San Antonio, do civilian rotations in Seattle, WA for level 1 trauma), Ft. Hood, TX (great program that has the advantage of not many other residency programs in the hospital - EM residents get more procedures because they aren't competing with other residents), and a civilian sponsored deferment in Augusta, GA (no additional service obligation accrued).

2. Competitiveness, as mentioned before, the applicant:matriculant ratio is about 1.7. Average Step 1 score is a 231 and *I think* average step 2 score is like a 242? Most EM advisers and program directors I've talked to in order to ask what they prefer in an applicant care more about a solid work ethic, "the 3AM question" (if its 3AM and there are only 2 doctors here, myself and this person, can I trust them?), and ability to generate a reasonable differential diagnosis quickly with a limited amount of information

3. Deployments - from what I've heard from recent EM residency graduates, the expectation is you will be deployed within a year of finishing residency. Deployments can either be directly with a unit (BN or BDE Surgeon) or at a Combat Support Hospital (CSH).

4. Moonlighting - most EM attendings I've talked to haven't had an issue with getting moonlighting approved if they wanted it. However, many people choose not to moonlight as there are only so many hours in the day/week and as you progress through your medical career, many people value time more than some extra cash on the side.

To answer your question on where EM attendings practice while stateside, the vast majority work in Emergency Rooms and are called to deployments on an as-needed basis. Some serve as BN or BDE surgeons, which would be more of a primary care role and staff officer (adviser to the unit Commander). There used to be a system called PROFIS (professional filler system), that would attach physicians that work in the hospital on a daily basis with a specific unit to train with during big training events or if they deployed. From what I've heard, the system never really worked how it was intended and it's not too uncommon to get deployment orders out of nowhere anywhere from a couple weeks to a couple months in advance
 
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I have searched and searched. One place said no, one place said yes. Has anyone definitively answered... Can I take the GI Bill.. get the HPSP to pay first, and then get the school to reimburse me for the GI Bill payment on tuition? I am almost certain I get the GI Bill housing stipend/whatever the monthly payment is on post 9/11 payments in addition to the HPSP allowance, right? If I were to do that. I am almost certain I won't having read the horror stories of matching on this site.

For the Army the short answer is no. Any portion of the GI Bill or any other scholarship that is attributed to tuition will result in that amount being subtracted from what the Army will pay for tuition. Also, because you will be losing the benefit of tuition/tuition assistance, the Army HPSP office will advise you to save your GI Bill benefits for later.
 
For the Army the short answer is no. Any portion of the GI Bill or any other scholarship that is attributed to tuition will result in that amount being subtracted from what the Army will pay for tuition. Also, because you will be losing the benefit of tuition/tuition assistance, the Army HPSP office will advise you to save your GI Bill benefits for later.

USArmyHPSP is correct, we call it double dipping. If your getting HPSP you can't receive GI bill benefits also.
 
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Wanted to add this also...since my opinion is being thrown out now haha....this is from LTC Lanier medical corps liaison to HSD and a former program director.


How to be Competitive for a Military Residency According to Dr. Lanier

Note: Unless official guidance is cited, these are my personal opinions only!!

There isn't anything formal for the FYGME match. Programs may use their own
internal scoring sheet but they have the latitude to score applicants
however they want, which is a good thing for the program. Here I lay out what
I looked at when I was reviewing packets as a GME faculty, including as Program Director.

--Performance on a face-to-face rotation. By far the most important thing
and the only thing that in my mind could trump a failed part of the boards.
Everyone (staff, residents, nurses) who interacted with you potentially can
have their voice heard in the decision-making process. So put your best foot
forward at all times.
Within this--likeability by the residents (they spend a lot of time
with you, don't underestimate the impact their impression has on how a
program ranks you), clinical knowledge, Officership (be on time, wear the
uniform properly, be professional with patients), and inquisitive nature are
the things I was looking at. If you read in advance, studied your patients
in advance, and worked to become efficient with your assessments so that you
didn't put me behind in clinic, those things stood out to me.
Likewise, if you perform poorly during your rotation,
that, in a bad way, outweighs anything good you have on paper.
Also, at least look like you can meet Ht/Wt and APFT
standards. Remember, failure to be in compliance puts you at risk for not
completing training. A program is not going to tape you or do a diagnostic
APFT during your rotation, but if you don't otherwise stand out for being
exceptional, I'm probably going to shy away from an applicant who 1) is at
risk of not completing their training and 2) is someone that I'm going to
have to invest a lot of extra time and effort on in Special Pops (time away
from training for the resident, time away from family for those running the
remedial PT around the schedule of the busy resident). Now, if you're a
clinical rock star, and look like you may need just a little work on APFT or
Ht/Wt, I'll probably take a chance on you, and work with you more closely
early on to help you pass. But I consider that a calculated risk. My advice,
don't make body composition even an issue.
People that rotate face-to-face usually go to the head of
the class if they do well. Reason for this--I know you only have 2 clinical
ADTs. If you spend one of those 2 in my facility, and I'm confident that
once you rotate in my facility you're going to want to rank my program
highly, then I know you have to be very interested in my program and likely
to rank it within your top 2 choices. So if I rank you highly as well, it
increases the chance of matching.

--If you don't rotate with me, then I next look at those who did an
interview either face-to-face or over the phone. I look at the same things as I mentioned above
although I'm not as confident that you'll rank my program highly else you
would have rotated in my facility. Plus I can't vouch for you clinically.
--Other criteria that I look at (and the only criteria for those who don't
rotate or interview):
Board scores--must pass both steps first attempt, else red flag and
I'm going to put your packet aside and rank at the bottom unless someone on my staff can
give me a compelling reason not to. Now, if you rotated with me and did
really well, I can still rank you more highly than others who didn't rotate,
but you'll fall behind other students that rotated with me, did well, and
passed.
Dean's letter/Medical School Performance Summary--really I look for
class ranking, however it's annotated. I'll also look at comments on
clinical rotations but after a while these all start to read together.
Letters of recommendation--more so who they're from, particularly ones
from military facilities (especially if you have one from a Program
Director). Again once you've read a bunch, you can only read "excellent
student, likely to do well" so many times before they run together and don't
really help anyone. But if you have a letter from a prior service military
doc or other senior leader in the specialty whose name we recognize, that
stands out. Also, mediocre letters stand out. It's like reading OERs and
NCOERs--most usually have inflated comments, so those that don't have those
stand out in a not-so-good way.
*** to me, a letter from a military Program Director in the specialty
you're applying also indicates 2 things--1) you intend to rank that program
very highly, if not #1, and 2) that program intends to rank you very highly.

Personal statement--take time to do a good one. These rarely help, but
a memorably bad one can definitely hurt you.
Picture--can say a thousand words. See rationale above about looking
the part. Your photo will be a civilian one that goes into ERAS. At the very
least, don't stand out for not looking professional. Look good, look like
you meet Ht/Wt standards. Advice is probably similar to that you'd give a
Soldier taking a DA Photo for a board.


This is official from OTSG GME announcement memo--this is used for
selections past the FYGME match (PGY-2, second residency, fellowship).

OTSG GME Announcement SUBJECT: Graduate Medical Education (GME) Residency
and Fellowship Training Opportunities (School Year 2016)

16 d) Scoring of applicants: Selection of trainees will be conducted using a
score sheet developed in collaboration with the Navy and Air Force GME
offices. Scoring will be done by program directors and/or consultants from
those programs that are selecting applicants. In the case where the Service
does not have a program in that specialty, the specialty consultant/leader
for that service will be a scoring member. The scoring method credits prior
service and utilization tours, if applicable, academic achievements in
medical school and residency training as well as potential for military
medical service in the desired specialty role. Thus, all elements deemed
relevant to an applicant's success as an Army Medical Corps officer, such as
military experience, contributions to the AMEDD through utilization tours,
academic achievements, and performance in training and clinical roles and
potential for continued service will be considered in the selection
decision. Each application will be scored by a single individual from each
Service. The three scores will be combined to give a composite score which
will be used to generate an order of merit list for selection in that
specialty. In most cases, two of the three scorers will have no personal
knowledge of the applicant, reinforcing the concept that the score will be
based only upon information in the application. Any information not
documented in the application packet cannot be used for the purposes of
scoring.
 
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Personal Statements are discouraged in the Navy except to inform the board of important information that is not otherwise apparent (colocation issues, etc).
 
Personal Statements are discouraged in the Navy except to inform the board of important information that is not otherwise apparent (colocation issues, etc).
Maybe that was true previously and it's a recent change? Personal statements were listed as required on the GME board instruction for this last year and I was definitely asked for one from all three training centers.
 
Maybe that was true previously and it's a recent change? Personal statements were listed as required on the GME board instruction for this last year and I was definitely asked for one from all three training centers.

That's a change. Guess they are conforming with the green machine
 
3rd Year med student here from USUHS (military's medical school), I'll be interviewing EM this summer and just wanted to offer a few more pieces of up-to-date information that haven't been mentioned for EM in the Army

1. Locations: 4 residency programs - San Antonio, TX (probably the most competitive to get into, only level 1 trauma center for Army EM), Ft. Lewis, WA (just as competitive as San Antonio, do civilian rotations in Seattle, WA for level 1 trauma), Ft. Hood, TX (great program that has the advantage of not many other residency programs in the hospital - EM residents get more procedures because they aren't competing with other residents), and a civilian sponsored deferment in Augusta, GA (no additional service obligation accrued).

2. Competitiveness, as mentioned before, the applicant:matriculant ratio is about 1.7. Average Step 1 score is a 231 and *I think* average step 2 score is like a 242? Most EM advisers and program directors I've talked to in order to ask what they prefer in an applicant care more about a solid work ethic, "the 3AM question" (if its 3AM and there are only 2 doctors here, myself and this person, can I trust them?), and ability to generate a reasonable differential diagnosis quickly with a limited amount of information

3. Deployments - from what I've heard from recent EM residency graduates, the expectation is you will be deployed within a year of finishing residency. Deployments can either be directly with a unit (BN or BDE Surgeon) or at a Combat Support Hospital (CSH).

4. Moonlighting - most EM attendings I've talked to haven't had an issue with getting moonlighting approved if they wanted it. However, many people choose not to moonlight as there are only so many hours in the day/week and as you progress through your medical career, many people value time more than some extra cash on the side.

To answer your question on where EM attendings practice while stateside, the vast majority work in Emergency Rooms and are called to deployments on an as-needed basis. Some serve as BN or BDE surgeons, which would be more of a primary care role and staff officer (adviser to the unit Commander). There used to be a system called PROFIS (professional filler system), that would attach physicians that work in the hospital on a daily basis with a specific unit to train with during big training events or if they deployed. From what I've heard, the system never really worked how it was intended and it's not too uncommon to get deployment orders out of nowhere anywhere from a couple weeks to a couple months in advance

Now to figure out who you are (USU MSIII here).

Edit: too easy! Done with ATLS brother.
 
There used to be a system called PROFIS (professional filler system), that would attach physicians that work in the hospital on a daily basis with a specific unit to train with during big training events or if they deployed. From what I've heard, the system never really worked how it was intended and it's not too uncommon to get deployment orders out of nowhere anywhere from a couple weeks to a couple months in advance

the PROFIS system is very much still alive, at least until something better comes along and they finally shoot the thing and put it out of its misery.

currently it is functioning better than in the past-- probably because the op-tempo is lower.

the way it should work is that a PROFIS doc is assigned to a unit prior to their NTC (national training center) rotation, which is typically 6 months or so from their actual deployment date. they connect with their unit, then train at NTC with them. then in 3-4 months, deploy with that same unit downrange.

when the op tempo is high, the demand is high, and bodies to fill these positions are in short supply. pregnancies, "non-deployable" positions such as PD or OIC can create a situation where a previous PROFIS position is suddenly open needing a body to fill-- hence the old days when someone would get a 2 week notice for a year in the sandbox.

currently deployments on the army side are limited to 9 months. splits can occur, but are much less common that they used to be, and are typically given to procedural heavy specialties (such as ENT, ortho, etc) that have skill degradation due to lack of applicable procedures. other specialties can get them on a individual basis depending on the situation. I'm in Kuwait and am submitting one for several reasons, skills being one but also I happen to be over qualified by rank and experience (have already done this gig as an O3 and am an O5) which per MEDCOM guidance for promotions doesn't show "increasing levels of responsibility."

how this relates to EM-- one of my fellow PROFIS docs is EM. they have in the past split deploments, but as you can imagine when you fill a 9 month rotation with 2 docs this increases the number of docs needed on a consistent basis. even though he only owes a couple more years, he's likely going to stay the full 9 because there's a real chance if he did 4.5 he'd end up doing another 4.5 before he fulfilled his ADSO. EM is obviously in high demand for deployment, but in reality any physician will do. whether you are a radiologist or peds neuro or interventional cardiologist, anyone can fill a 62B billet.

if our op tempo kicks back up (invading Syria, soldier cap removed from Iraq, etc) with the 9 months rotation being standard I can see things devolving back to the madness it was at the height of OEF/OIF. but like most things military it's trying to project 4-5 years out which is basically impossible. other than guaranteeing we will still be in the middle east the degree of involvement can go either way.

--your friendly neighborhood holding pattern in Kuwait caveman
 
d
Hey all,

I'm currently considering the HPSP scholarship with the Army, but I want to get a few questions addressed before I take the offer. The biggest concern that I have is about my future as a potential EM physician in the Army.
  1. Can any current Army EM physician comment on the quality of their residency training? Also, which hospital is known to be the most competitive one?
  2. During active duty, where do EM physicians practice? Are they deployed to work in an ED whether you're in US or foreign country? Or are you working essentially as a primary care physician in a small clinic...
  3. How do you prevent skill atrophy when deployed as an EM physician. Is moonlighting at a civilian ED an option to maintain/hone your skills?
I look forward to your responses and thank you for taking the time.

a few points to the OP:

1. I'm not qualified to answer, but as a consultant the EM trained folks seem to have their **** together. one caveat-- I have friends who are civilian EM, and many of them used moonlighting (especially in 3rd year) during residency as a way to not only make more $$ but to also get some real world OJT and to increase clinical skills. in the military moonlighting while a resident is strictly verboten.

2. most unless a brigade surgeon are in EM billets. but some of those billets may be in Korea.

3. deployed? you don't. if you're a battalion surgeon you will be doing FP for sick call with occasional trauma. this obviously could change if you are in a highly kinetic environment or assigned to a CSH. at your home duty station? they all moonlight from what I can tell.

--your friendly neighborhood good luck on your budding emergentologist career caveman
 
Hey Guys!

I wanted to just throw a few resources out there for people with more questions on Military EM and the Military Match. The Government Services Chapter of the American College of Emergency Physicians (GSACEP) have put together several resources in conjunction with EMRA and EM Resident Web site to help navigate the confusion surrounding the military match. Many of these were put together in conjunction with program directors and other active-duty military EM physicians.

There are also many more resources available if you want to get involved.


GSACEP:
GSACEP | Student Resources

EMRA:
Military Match

EM Resident:
Military Match for EM
military-match-faq

Hope this helps if there are any unanswered questions future students may have
 
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