Farewell, Dr. Dull

[rakotomazoto]

Chairman of UA's anesthesiology department steps down over leadership concerns

Dr. Randal Dull will remain as tenured professor and physician at the UA.

tucson.com

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[nimbus]

Good riddance! Guy sounds like a walking lawsuit.

 

[IlDestriero]

I wonder how train wrecks like this get the job to begin with. We call partners and faculty we know to inquire about regular faculty candidates, let alone leadership.
If they say, “yes he works here.” that’s all you need to know. It’s also somewhat amusing that their department is such a disaster that a retired Cardiothoracic surgeon VP has to take over in the interim.

 

[dchz]

Dull wrote the letter to the editor to the Park City Record in January 2004 titled “Keep the queers off the front page.”

Someone please link the letter.

 

[Drummond]

I interviewed with him at UofA, seemed like a great guy with a vision to transform the department. Good thing I didn't rank them very highly.

 

[deleted875186]

Dull wrote the letter to the editor to the Park City Record in January 2004 titled “Keep the queers off the front page.”

Someone please link the letter.

 

[AdmiralChz]

Wow, is this 1920? He actually wrote that and thought it was a good idea?

 

[deleted171991]

Wow, is this 1920? He actually wrote that and thought it was a good idea?

2004 was a century ago. That's why we got Trump today. Too many changes, too fast.

 

[nimbus]

I interviewed with him at UofA, seemed like a great guy with a vision to transform the department. Good thing I didn't rank them very highly.

That proves that even a whacko can act normal during an interview.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Contrary to the liberal agenda which is pervasive on SDN there are many "conservatives" in Medicine who feel like Dr. Dull but they are smart enough to keep those thoughts and beliefs to themselves. Dr. Dull made major errors in judgment writing that letter and treating any member of his department in a demeaning matter due to sexual orientation. In fact, those that I know with similar beliefs to Dr. Dull bend over backwards at work to never appear biased or demeaning to any "oppressed" group. Typically, that means those individuals receive better treatment than their peers. So, Dr. Dull is not the norm by any means because most conservatives know how they will be perceived by the media and the left in this country.
Dr. Dull is a living example that those conservative beliefs from just 2 decades ago are no longer tolerated by the liberal media and any expression of such beliefs will likely be career suicide.

 

[deleted162650]

Dr. Dull isn't too sharp.

 

[T-burglar]

Blade your post makes it seems like you agree with this scum

 

[UscGhost]

Contrary to the liberal agenda which is pervasive on SDN there are many "conservatives" in Medicine who feel like Dr. Dull but they are smart enough to keep those thoughts and beliefs to themselves. Dr. Dull made major errors in judgment writing that letter and treating any member of his department in a demeaning matter due to sexual orientation. In fact, those that I know with similar beliefs to Dr. Dull bend over backwards at work to never appear biased or demeaning to any "oppressed" group. Typically, that means those individuals receive better treatment than their peers. So, Dr. Dull is not the norm by any means because most conservatives know how they will be perceived by the media and the left in this country.
Dr. Dull is a living example that those conservative beliefs from just 2 decades ago are no longer tolerated by the liberal media and any expression of such beliefs will likely be career suicide.

It must be a tough life if they have to "bend over backwards" to not be hateful, racist, homophobic, etc.

His "mistake" is that he is a hateful person to begin with. That letter is pretty abhorrent.

 

[abolt18]

On one end, it's totally idiotic to have ever written something like that, specifically in the public eye, and especially if you ever wanted to pursue any sort of leadership.

On the other end, a LOT has changed in society regarding people's perspectives/viewpoints on this community and I personally would hate for something I said 15 years ago to be held against me, as I can tell you I'm nothing like the person I was in 2004.

Now in reality, this guy's actions and behaviour at work sound like he hasn't changed a whole lot, so there's that. Shouldn't be in leadership if you can't keep your biases from making you feel the need to treat someone badly or with hostility.

 

[jope]

I don't think Blade is agreeing with Dr. Dull. The wording in article is definitely wrong, however even the most tolerant has to realize that the pendulum is swinging pretty extremely to the other side and any disagreement with that is automatically squelched.

Heck in Canada here, we have a case of the M to F transgender patient suing Women' salons for not waxing male genitalia. There's also more push for hormone blockade for young children as little as 3 years old too. These are getting a bit extreme and many people likely agree silently out of fear.

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

I have not met Dr. Dull. I have however worked with the anesthesiologist who was fired/quit. I was extremely impressed with this person’s clinical acumen, intellect, and patient care. Given this, I think that Dr. Dull’s removal from his position has much less to do with persecution and suppression of free thought by the overly politically correct academic liberal elite, as some here would suggest, but rather Dr. Dull’s inability repress his personal prejudices when managing staff. That’s a poor quality in a person in a leadership position. You can privately think whatever you want, but if you are in that position, you have to treat people objectively and with even handedness. It doesn’t sound like he did that.

I would be far less concerned about Dr. Dull’s victimization by politically correct groupthink than his apparent tendency to capriciously inflict his worldview on his subordinates. So in this case, it sounds like the culture of political correctness did a good turn. Also, unless I misread this, it doesn’t exactly sound like Dr. Dull was sent to Siberia, I mean, he still has a job there, unlike the other guy.

 

[Hork Bajir]

I just want to go on record here that there is a difference between being "conservative" and being hateful/xenophobic, just the same as there is a difference between "liberal" and being ultra-PC to the point of absurdity. I'm a pretty liberal guy, but I welcome opposing viewpoints and voices as necessary for a high-functioning society. What got Dr. Dull in trouble was not the fact that he was conservative, or even the fact that he seemed to hold religious convictions about the (im)morality of the LGBTQ community... It was the fact that he was a straight-up, hate-spewing, bigot who thought he could and should impose his worldview on others.

Hatred, xenophobia, and bigotry doesn't belong to the political left or the political right, and both sides ought to condemn it.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I agree with Dr. Dull’s removal from leadership. My post was a response to the current culture of bashing conservative viewpoints by the liberal media. Dr. Dull had the right to express himself in that 2004 editorial even though I believe he did a poor job of stating the mainstream Conservative position which is not hateful or demeaning to the private expression of the LBGQT lifestyle.

Dr Dull went too far when he took his personal beliefs into the work place and used those beliefs to belittle, mock or demean anyone especially an oppressed minority group like the LBQT. Dr Dull is an example to all of us that this sort of behavior won’t be tolerated in 2019. But, to be fair I’m also concerned that oppressed groups may use their status to force leadership to treat them better than their colleagues.

 

[MoMoGesiologist]

I agree with Dr. Dull’s removal from leadership. My post was a response to the current culture of bashing conservative viewpoints by the liberal media. Dr. Dull had the right to express himself in that 2004 editorial even though I believe he did a poor job of stating the mainstream Conservative position which is not hateful or demeaning to the private expression of the LBGQT lifestyle.

Dr Dull went too far when he took his personal beliefs into the work place and used those beliefs to belittle, mock or demean anyone especially an oppressed minority group like the LBQT. Dr Dull is an example to all of us that this sort of behavior won’t be tolerated in 2019. But, to be fair I’m also concerned that oppressed groups may use their status to force leadership to treat them better than their colleagues.

Do you have examples from the hospital workplace where minorities were able to get special treatment?

 

[AdmiralChz]

Do you have examples from the hospital workplace where minorities were able to get special treatment?

This isn’t a very popular thing to say, but I absolutely know of situations where individuals have gotten a LOT more leash or gotten away with far more than their peers in the realm of poor patient care and poor professionalism. For obvious reasons I won’t give specifics but I’ll say a very public lawsuit was threatened by more than 1 traditionally marginalized group.

 

[abolt18]

Do you have examples from the hospital workplace where minorities were able to get special treatment?

Not in the hospital, but definitely at my medical school!

 

[IDGARA]

I agree with Dr. Dull’s removal from leadership. My post was a response to the current culture of bashing conservative viewpoints by the liberal media. Dr. Dull had the right to express himself in that 2004 editorial even though I believe he did a poor job of stating the mainstream Conservative position which is not hateful or demeaning to the private expression of the LBGQT lifestyle.

Dr Dull went too far when he took his personal beliefs into the work place and used those beliefs to belittle, mock or demean anyone especially an oppressed minority group like the LBQT. Dr Dull is an example to all of us that this sort of behavior won’t be tolerated in 2019. But, to be fair I’m also concerned that oppressed groups may use their status to force leadership to treat them better than their colleagues.

Most of my black/African American peers had stories of people asking if they were the patient transporter or a part of the OR turnover crew, while they were standing at the head of the bed of an intubated patient in the OR.

The only special treatment people want is the deference white folks assume is normal.

 

[pgg]

I wonder how train wrecks like this get the job to begin with. We call partners and faculty we know to inquire about regular faculty candidates, let alone leadership.
If they say, “yes he works here.” that’s all you need to know. It’s also somewhat amusing that their department is such a disaster that a retired Cardiothoracic surgeon VP has to take over in the interim.

Hard to believe 15 minutes with Google wouldn't have turned up some of his literary history.

 

[drmwvr]

Most of my black/African American peers had stories of people asking if they were the patient transporter or a part of the OR turnover crew, while they were standing at the head of the bed of an intubated patient in the OR.

The only special treatment people want is the deference white folks assume is normal.

Women physicians are mistaken for nurses by other women physicians, short men of any color are just invisible, hot Filipinos with awesome hairstyles are mistaken for gay men...by other hot Filipinos...it ain't just white folks, Sport. Get over yourself.

 

[BLADEMDA]

Women physicians are mistaken for nurses by other women physicians, short men of any color are just invisible, hot Filipinos with awesome hairstyles are mistaken for gay men...by other hot Filipinos...it ain't just white folks, Sport. Get over yourself.

But, this nation has a long, long history of significant racial bias against people of DARK color. This is fact not opinion. So, I definitely agree that in hospitals without significant minority Physician presence the issue of being mistaken for a lower level healthcare worker is an issue. That said, I have also worked in hospitals with significant minority physician presence where these "mistakes" never occurred.

I hope we can all agree that treating everyone as EQUALS with the same playing field at work is the goal. But, with this nation's history and medicine's lack of Physicians of Color can we really expect that all sides will see a level playing field?
Please don't read anything into my posts as I am not advocating any position here but rather stating what I have observed and heard from many of my colleagues about this subject across the racial spectrum.

These days I am more sensitive to the LBGQT community and their issues even though I have worked with open lesbians and Gays for decades. I simply never treated them any differently than my other colleagues nor did they ever expect anything else from me. What they did in their personal life was of no concern to me. However, over the past 5-7 years I have seen a shift where LBGT providers feel open to discuss their lifestyle at work/public. I readily admit this does make me uncomfortable at times but I simply accept it as the new reality of the times.

 

[drmwvr]

But, this nation has a long, long history of significant racial bias against people of DARK color. This is fact not opinion. So, I definitely agree that in hospitals without significant minority Physician presence the issue of being mistaken for a lower level healthcare worker is an issue. That said, I have also worked in hospitals with significant minority physician presence where these "mistakes" never occurred.

I hope we can all agree that treating everyone as EQUALS with the same playing field at work is the goal. But, with this nation's history and medicine's lack of Physicians of Color can we really expect that all sides will see a level playing field?
Please don't read anything into my posts as I am not advocating any position here but rather stating what I have observed and heard from many of my colleagues about this subject across the racial spectrum.

These days I am more sensitive to the LBGQT community and their issues even though I have worked with open lesbians and Gays for decades. I simply never treated them any differently than my other colleagues nor did they ever expect anything else from me. What they did in their personal life was of no concern to me. However, over the past 5-7 years I have seen a shift where LBGT providers feel open to discuss their lifestyle at work/public. I readily admit this does make me uncomfortable at times but I simply accept it as the new reality of the times.

My God...here in just plain old "fly over country"...there is peace...no identity politics, no hatred, no posturing or virtue signaling. Just pretty much mind your own business and be polite and go have a beer. That I love Jesus and voted for Trump doesn't mean I can't buy some dude and his dude spouse dinner after work. I don't talk about my sex life and no one else does either because it isn't polite. You want to talk recipes, I can do that. Guns? No problem. God help us all...the coasts are completely FU'd.

 

[drmwvr]

But, this nation has a long, long history of significant racial bias against people of DARK color.

And BTW...this statement is BS...if by "this nation" you are referring to some empowered tribe, tribes have marginalizing other tribes since there have been tribes. Just ask the Irish, Polish, Germans and any other non Protestant, non English speaking immigrant to the US since the 19th century. DARK skinned people are just one more group in a long line of injustice. And that you would single out "this nation" is quite laughable given the ethic of Europe during the European industrial revolution and the exploitation of Africa during that period.

There is no defense of the exploitation of humanity by empowered tribes in the 18th and 19th centuries and the oppression of the 20th centuries. To associate that with resisting the Pride ideology of the 21st century is just submissive urination.

 

[Echo33]

Contrary to the liberal agenda which is pervasive on SDN there are many "conservatives" in Medicine who feel like Dr. Dull but they are smart enough to keep those thoughts and beliefs to themselves. Dr. Dull made major errors in judgment writing that letter and treating any member of his department in a demeaning matter due to sexual orientation. In fact, those that I know with similar beliefs to Dr. Dull bend over backwards at work to never appear biased or demeaning to any "oppressed" group. Typically, that means those individuals receive better treatment than their peers. So, Dr. Dull is not the norm by any means because most conservatives know how they will be perceived by the media and the left in this country.
Dr. Dull is a living example that those conservative beliefs from just 2 decades ago are no longer tolerated by the liberal media and any expression of such beliefs will likely be career suicide.

Wow, Blade I’m sorry you are way out of line here.

Liberal agenda? Did you read that dudes article? He essentially said he hates the lgbt community. Yes, I repeat, that article is nothing but his expression of hate for those people. You can call this whole thing liberal agenda all you want but that article as absolutely disgusting. And you’re implying that it’s ok to feel that way, because freedom of speech or whatever. That dude is a grade A douchbag and I wouldn’t let him touch me or my family.

Welcome to trumps America. “Fine people on both sides”

 

[deleted171991]

Here's the text of the letter:

Keep The Queers Off The Front Page
Wednesday, Jan. 14 edition represented a new low for both The Park Record and the families of Park City. In fact, this specific edition spoke volumes regarding the lack of character and conscience of the editorial staff and managment at The Park Record. I am, of course, referring to the front page article on a new homosexual hangout here in Park City to give perverts and other degenerates a place to “network” during the local film festival. The good people of Park City and the editors at The Record must decide what kind of community we desire to be.
Whenever our neighbors decide they want to spend more of our hard-earned money for a taxpayer-funded soccer field, park, hiking trail or expensive transit service, they like to remind us that Park City is a family community and illuminate the needs of families and children. If that rational is good enough to support expensive spending initiatives it MUST be good enough to keep the queers off the front page (“queers” - their words, not mine).
The promotion of homosexuality, bisexual confusion, and other degeneracy cannot be tolerated. Frankly, I don’t expect much better for the local media since their political agenda of promoting liberalism and perversion is well understood. I do, however, place the blame firmly on the shoulders of the “good people” of this community and our country, in general, for refusing to make their voices heard against this sort of blatant indecency.
Where are our civic leaders, our elected officials and out clergy when a “Queen Lounge” was placed on Main Street? I guess “family values” is only good election-time rhetoric. Good people have allowed themselves to be deceived by the brainwashing use of words like “tolerance” and “diversity” — which are nothing more than polite ways of asking us to abandon our principles. Regrettably, we seem to have obliged. Those who wish to undermine the Christian heritage of our country do so to destroy the only real resistance to this open promotion of perversion and radical liberalism. Unfortunately, the perverts are winning the war because the good people have VOLUNTARILY been silenced!
Inch by inch we are loosing ground to the moral degenerates who promote their perversion as an auspice of “freedom” — but we must not allow ourselves to be fooled by such nonsense. We have the right and, in fact, we have a duty to support community standards of decency and morality.
I would like to remind those who think of Park City as a family community, “All that evil needs to succeed is for good people to do nothing”
RANDALL O. DULL, Ph.D., M.D.
Constitution Party of Utah
State Vice Chair

 

[deleted171991]

Blade has a point. To many on the Christian right there is nothing wrong with Dr. Dull's letter, except maybe for the tone. They have difficulties accepting homosexuality as not a sin, the same way their ancestors considered blacks to be inferior (the Bible said so). This too shall pass (with time and education).

Remember, this was a letter written in 2004, in Utah, in a city with less than 8,000 inhabitants. Not in 2019 in Tucson, Arizona. Different places, different times, different values. While, to me, a certain level of bigotry is an indicator of stupidity (which is an incurable disease), we have to understand that change doesn't happen overnight, especially change in values. Change is hard, especially at the current speed of the left. Also, people are not perfect; to err is human (but to persevere is "diabolical").

Most people who hate minorities don't even know whom they hate. They may have not encountered even one member of said minority, not shared a meal, not spent time together. All they know is the brainwash from self-interested political and religious leaders, or from haters on the Internet. Nothing unites like negative feelings, such as fear and hate. Btw, that applies for the sympathizers of the left, too; it's much easier to call one a "deplorable" and try to ostracize one, than to have a civilized dialogue.

The solution is not name-calling, or ostracizing, or "cancelling". It only leads to more hate, more division. The solution is education, tolerance, understanding, turning the other cheek etc. I would almost say "love" like a certain Democratic candidate. Walk a mile in the other person's shoes. Try to see where there are coming from. Usually, with every minority, there is no smoke without fire, but the fire is much smaller and less dangerous than what the majority is made to believe. But it takes TIME to digest and understand that, and the minority needs to be patient, or it will be "one step forward, two steps back" (e.g. Trump as a backlash after Obama). One can catch more flies with honey...

P.S. Don't shoot the messengers.

 

[nimbus]

Even as high school student in the Midwest during the 1980s I knew not to insult people and call them degenerates because of who they are. So I don’t know why people are making excuses for a grown man who did this in 2004. And for anyone who thinks sexuality is a choice, think back to middle school and ask yourself if you had any choice about who made your pubescent willie go boing!

Agree with the above posters that there are righteous conservatives and liberals who treat other people with kindness and respect. Millions of people do it every day, get along, and even have fun living and working alongside each other.

 

[Planktonmd]

Contrary to the liberal agenda which is pervasive on SDN there are many "conservatives" in Medicine who feel like Dr. Dull but they are smart enough to keep those thoughts and beliefs to themselves. Dr. Dull made major errors in judgment writing that letter and treating any member of his department in a demeaning matter due to sexual orientation. In fact, those that I know with similar beliefs to Dr. Dull bend over backwards at work to never appear biased or demeaning to any "oppressed" group. Typically, that means those individuals receive better treatment than their peers. So, Dr. Dull is not the norm by any means because most conservatives know how they will be perceived by the media and the left in this country.
Dr. Dull is a living example that those conservative beliefs from just 2 decades ago are no longer tolerated by the liberal media and any expression of such beliefs will likely be career suicide.

Yes, racism, bigotry, and sexism are now less tolerated, so sad for you!

 

[Planktonmd]

Blade has a point.

Yes unfortunately, he has a point: " bigotry is being less tolerated now and bigots are not happy about it, and it's all the liberals' fault!"
In the good old days you could say whatever you wanted as long as you were a member of the good old white boys club, now those progressive A** Holes make a big deal if you want to call a "colored" person or a homosexual by their other common names totally entrenched in this nation's history!
What's wrong with these people? why are they becoming "snow flakes"?

 

[vector2]

And BTW...this statement is BS...if by "this nation" you are referring to some empowered tribe, tribes have marginalizing other tribes since there have been tribes. Just ask the Irish, Polish, Germans and any other non Protestant, non English speaking immigrant to the US since the 19th century. DARK skinned people are just one more group in a long line of injustice. And that you would single out "this nation" is quite laughable given the ethic of Europe during the European industrial revolution and the exploitation of Africa during that period.

There is no defense of the exploitation of humanity by empowered tribes in the 18th and 19th centuries and the oppression of the 20th centuries. To associate that with resisting the Pride ideology of the 21st century is just submissive urination.

Preach on, dude! Can't believe anyone would talk about our nation being biased against people with dark skin. I mean, doesn't anyone remember that time that we kidnapped 600,000 Irish, made them slaves for 250 years, and then made them 3rd class citizens for 150 years?

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Preach on, dude! Can't believe anyone would talk about our nation being biased against people with dark skin. I mean, doesn't anyone remember that time that we kidnapped 600,000 Irish, made them slaves for 250 years, and then made them 3rd class citizens for 150 years?

Try again, Einstein.

Great Famine (Ireland) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When America Despised the Irish: The 19th Century’s Refugee Crisis | HISTORY

Forced from their homeland because of famine and political upheaval, the Irish endured vehement discrimination before making their way into the American mainstream.

www.history.com

 

[AdmiralChz]

Try again, Einstein.

Great Famine (Ireland) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

When America Despised the Irish: The 19th Century’s Refugee Crisis | HISTORY

Forced from their homeland because of famine and political upheaval, the Irish endured vehement discrimination before making their way into the American mainstream.

www.history.com

DUDE. It’s called sarcasm. He (or she) using it to illustrate the history of slavery... did you miss that??

There are plenty of examples of marginalized groups in our country but those of African descent have the most obvious and ongoing problems.

 

[T-burglar]

On one end, it's totally idiotic to have ever written something like that, specifically in the public eye, and especially if you ever wanted to pursue any sort of leadership.

On the other end, a LOT has changed in society regarding people's perspectives/viewpoints on this community and I personally would hate for something I said 15 years ago to be held against me, as I can tell you I'm nothing like the person I was in 2004.

Now in reality, this guy's actions and behaviour at work sound like he hasn't changed a whole lot, so there's that. Shouldn't be in leadership if you can't keep your biases from making you feel the need to treat someone badly or with hostility.

What kinds of things were you saying 15 years ago that you wouldn't want held against you, champ?

15 years ago I was in college. I'm not embarassed of my stance on equality and tolerance from back then...

 

[abolt18]

What kinds of things were you saying 15 years ago that you wouldn't want held against you, champ?

15 years ago I was in college. I'm not embarassed of my stance on equality and tolerance from back then...

That was high school for me. I would not describe myself at that time as being hateful or anything like that.

I would describe myself as being ignorant and uneducated at that time. I lived in a place with very little racial or religious diversity. I am not embarrassed by myself back then, as my past is what has brought me to my present. I can only say that I've changed and grown a lot for the better since that time.

 

[chocomorsel]

I agree with Dr. Dull’s removal from leadership. My post was a response to the current culture of bashing conservative viewpoints by the liberal media. Dr. Dull had the right to express himself in that 2004 editorial even though I believe he did a poor job of stating the mainstream Conservative position which is not hateful or demeaning to the private expression of the LBGQT lifestyle.

Dr Dull went too far when he took his personal beliefs into the work place and used those beliefs to belittle, mock or demean anyone especially an oppressed minority group like the LBQT. Dr Dull is an example to all of us that this sort of behavior won’t be tolerated in 2019. But, to be fair I’m also concerned that oppressed groups may use their status to force leadership to treat them better than their colleagues.

Give me a friggin break. It’s gonna be a long, long, time before us “oppressed” people are treated “better” than our non-oppressed colleagues.
And by the way, we don’t want to be treated better. We want to be treated “equally”.
I have never know any of my minority friends ever to be treated better than the non minorities. Ever. Equally, sure. A few. But never better. Get out of your comfort zone of living in your “white bred male” world view.
And BTW, finally in fellowship I was treated well. Much much better than residency. But not “better”.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

DUDE. It’s called sarcasm. He (or she) using it to illustrate the history of slavery... did you miss that??

There are plenty of examples of marginalized groups in our country but those of African descent have the most obvious and ongoing problems.

He picked on the wrong ethnic group. No, I'm not Irish.

 

[vector2]

He picked on the wrong ethnic group. No, I'm not Irish.

No one is picking on anyone, you dolt, and clearly you don't understand the concept of sarcasm. The Irish, plenty of other Europeans, and other 18-20th century immigrant religious or ethnic groups faced problems with discrimination and assimilation. My point is that American discrimination against those groups (while reprehensible in its own right) was comparatively nothing compared to the centuries-long kidnapping and enslavement of Africans.

 

[deleted171991]

Yes unfortunately, he has a point: " bigotry is being less tolerated now and bigots are not happy about it, and it's all the liberals' fault!"
In the good old days you could say whatever you wanted as long as you were a member of the good old white boys club, now those progressive A** Holes make a big deal if you want to call a "colored" person or a homosexual by their other common names totally entrenched in this nation's history!
What's wrong with these people? why are they becoming "snow flakes"?

Dude, don't be so sensitive. If I showed my spines every time somebody mispronounces my name on purpose, or asks me, in the "tolerant" American way, "where are you from?", I couldn't live and work in this country.

For example, people don't get the fact that the latter question is loaded with a lot of discrimination all around the world, especially when asked from an obvious immigrant. If you intend to treat me as equal, don't ask me where I am from, or what kind of name this is. My first instinctual answer to those would be "none of your f-cking business". But this is the local habit, and people are not educated, and change takes time, so I just try to be as nice as I can, and try to assume that the question is not loaded, that the curiosity is genuine, that the intentions are good.

Also, this country's past, good and bad, is the reason it is where it is. Just because those people were not perfect, it doesn't mean that we now have to spit on them. Appreciate the good, criticize the bad, keep the emotions in check, be objective. For example, anybody who criticizes the Western European heritage in this country is an idiot in my book. It's like saying that the Renaissance was bull**** because it came from the same peoples who had accepted the Inquisition before.

 

[btbam]

Dude, don't be so sensitive. If I showed my spines every time somebody mispronounces my name on purpose, or asks me, in the "tolerant" American way, "where are you from?", I couldn't live and work in this country.

For example, people don't get the fact that the latter question is loaded with a lot of discrimination all around the world, especially when asked from an obvious immigrant. If you intend to treat me as equal, don't ask me where I am from, or what kind of name this is. My first instinctual answer to those would be "none of your f-cking business". But this is the local habit, and people are not educated, and change takes time, so I just try to be as nice as I can, and try to assume that the question is not loaded, that the curiosity is genuine, that the intentions are good.

I’ll ask people where they are from because I’m genuinely interested. Sometimes it’s a place I’ve traveled or I like their cuisine etc and it’s something you can connect with them on.

 

[deleted171991]

I’ll ask people where they are from because I’m genuinely interested. Sometimes it’s a place I’ve traveled or I like their cuisine etc and it’s something you can connect with them on.

I know. Most people do. But some have other reasons.

One of the "duties" of a minority person is to keep his/her paranoia in check.

 

[chocomorsel]

This isn’t a very popular thing to say, but I absolutely know of situations where individuals have gotten a LOT more leash or gotten away with far more than their peers in the realm of poor patient care and poor professionalism. For obvious reasons I won’t give specifics but I’ll say a very public lawsuit was threatened by more than 1 traditionally marginalized group.

And I bet there are way more instances where the opposite is happening. Where “white males” got away with a hell of a lot more **** that minorities. Poor patient care, rude unprofessional, bullying, sexually harassing behavior. But all was brushed under the rug because they were just being “men”. AKA “Good old white boys”
I have seen it plenty. Where as a person of color commits the least indiscretion and they are raked over the coals and placed on remediation and probation or not renewed.
Come on. Give it a rest. It’s been going on for hundreds of years. Except back then, black folk they were getting hanged.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

No one is picking on anyone, you dolt, and clearly you don't understand the concept of sarcasm. The Irish, plenty of other Europeans, and other 18-20th century immigrant religious or ethnic groups faced problems with discrimination and assimilation. My point is that American discrimination against those groups (while reprehensible in its own right) was comparatively nothing compared to the centuries-long kidnapping and enslavement of Africans.

Comparatively nothing? Try reading a book.

For hundreds of years the Irish suffered at the hands of the English. They were forcibly removed from Ulster (northeastern Ireland) by Cromwell. They Irish were victims of religious, cultural and linguistic discrimination. The English treated their animals with more consideration. They Irish were virtual serfs in their own country. Religious discrimination was still common in Ulster 50 years ago.


During the famine 1.5 million starved to death. Four year olds with distended stomachs dropped dead in the road. All of this occurred while grain and meat were being exported from Ireland to England.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1997/09/27/the-irish-famine-complicity-in-murder/5a155118-3620-4145-951e-0dc46933b84a/?noredirect=on

 

[vector2]

Comparatively nothing? Try reading a book.

For hundreds of years the Irish suffered at the hands of the English. They were forcibly removed from Ulster (northeastern Ireland) by Cromwell. They Irish were victims of religious, cultural and linguistic discrimination. The English treated their animals with more consideration. They Irish were virtual serfs in their own country. Religious discrimination was still common in Ulster 50 years ago.


During the famine 1.5 million starved to death. Four year olds with distended stomachs dropped dead in the road. All of this occurred while grain and meat were being exported from Ireland to England.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1997/09/27/the-irish-famine-complicity-in-murder/5a155118-3620-4145-951e-0dc46933b84a/?noredirect=on

That's all terribly sad, but what exactly does the potato famine and England's treatment of Ireland have to do with the discussion at hand? If you were actually following along instead of looking to pounce (mistakenly) at whatever perceived slight you feel I've dealt to the Irish, you would've noticed that @drmwvr 's objection was about the thread's specific criticism of "this nation" i.e. America's treatment of people with dark skin.

Again, I will spell it out slowly for you this time: America's poor treatment of Irish immigrants is nothing compared America's kidnapping and enslavement of Africans, nor African-Americans' subsequent treatment under Jim Crow.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

That's all terribly sad, but what exactly does the potato famine and England's treatment of Ireland have to do with the discussion at hand? If you were actually following along instead of looking to pounce (mistakenly) at whatever perceived slight you feel I've dealt to the Irish, you would've noticed that @drmwvr 's objection was about the thread's specific criticism of "this nation" i.e. America's treatment of people with dark skin.

Again, I will spell it out slowly for you this time: America's poor treatment of Irish immigrants is nothing compared America's kidnapping and enslavement of Africans, nor African-Americans' subsequent treatment under Jim Crow.

Do yourself a favor, Bozo. Don't use the plight of the Irish, in the context of any discussion, as grist for your sarcasm mill. It's just as offensive as making jokes about the holocaust or the 30 million who died during China's Great Leap Forward.

 

[Planktonmd]

Dude, don't be so sensitive. If I showed my spines every time somebody mispronounces my name on purpose, or asks me, in the "tolerant" American way, "where are you from?", I couldn't live and work in this country.

For example, people don't get the fact that the latter question is loaded with a lot of discrimination all around the world, especially when asked from an obvious immigrant. If you intend to treat me as equal, don't ask me where I am from, or what kind of name this is. My first instinctual answer to those would be "none of your f-cking business". But this is the local habit, and people are not educated, and change takes time, so I just try to be as nice as I can, and try to assume that the question is not loaded, that the curiosity is genuine, that the intentions are good.

Also, this country's past, good and bad, is the reason it is where it is. Just because those people were not perfect, it doesn't mean that we now have to spit on them. Appreciate the good, criticize the bad, keep the emotions in check, be objective. For example, anybody who criticizes the Western European heritage in this country is an idiot in my book. It's like saying that the Renaissance was bull**** because it came from the same peoples who had accepted the Inquisition before.

Dude... I am not even close to being "sensitive" in real life!
I have been an immigrant all my adult life and my skin is thicker than you might think.
But... I don't like bigotry, and I don't agree with the good old white boy privilege ideology that you seem to have accepted.
And because now I live in a country where I am supposed to have freedom of speech... I don't think I should tolerate their BS and find them excuses.
See, when some one like Blade tells us that it was OK in the past to call black people or homosexuals certain names, and that they should not be too "sensitive" about it now, you and I as immigrants should detect where that racist bigoted language is headed, and we don't have to agree with it.
Isn't that the whole point of coming to the U.S.?
Correct me if I am wrong... but you know what ever you say I will still love you

 

[Planktonmd]

I know. Most people do. But some have other reasons.

One of the "duties" of a minority person is to keep his/her paranoia in check.

Man ... it's not paranoia... certain people really classify you based on your national origin, your skin color, or your religious affiliation, you should just remember that you are the smart one in the room and move on.
I guess you have come to a point where you convinced yourself that bigotry does not exist... I congratulate you my friend.