GP vs. Ortho

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wengerout

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Hey everyone! I wanted to ask if it still makes sense to pursue an Ortho residency or would I be better off being a GP and then taking a bunch of Ortho CE? I know with the rise of "Super GP's" the future of Ortho might be uncertain. What do you guys think?
 
Very important for you to get some dental school experience before worrying about such things. Specializing and limiting your practice to orthodontics is well worth it: if you hate being a gp or the gp lifestyle and also on average monetarily.Keep in mind Orthodontics is one of the most competitive specialties.
 
Very important for you to get some dental school experience before worrying about such things. Specializing and limiting your practice to orthodontics is well worth it: if you hate being a gp or the gp lifestyle and also on average monetarily.Keep in mind Orthodontics is one of the most competitive specialties.

Thanks! I just ask because this decision might affect which school I choose to go to depending on where I get in.
 
Thanks! I just ask because this decision might affect which school I choose to go to depending on where I get in.

I definitely understand. I was probably as curious as you were 4 years ago. It's funny how things work, you will see that your cheapest option will most likely be the best option i.e. your state school is probably more prestigious than a new private school with no established specialty programs.
 
If you are fortunate enough to have a cheap state school then you should go there IMO. You can specialize from pretty much any program, so your main concern should be saving on tuition if possible. If you don't get into a cheap state school, go with the 'best' value for your money you can find.
 
If you are fortunate enough to have a cheap state school then you should go there IMO. You can specialize from pretty much any program, so your main concern should be saving on tuition if possible. If you don't get into a cheap state school, go with the 'best' value for your money you can find.

While this is true, isn't it much more difficult to do this at a State school vs. an Ivy due to class rank/actual grading. Just looking at the numbers, many more people get the speciality of their choice out of an Ivy vs. state schools. I know it's possible out of a state school but seems like you would have to be pretty much the Ace of your class to have a good chance of getting the speciality you want.
 
While this is true, isn't it much more difficult to do this at a State school vs. an Ivy due to class rank/actual grading. Just looking at the numbers, many more people get the speciality of their choice out of an Ivy vs. state schools. I know it's possible out of a state school but seems like you would have to be pretty much the Ace of your class to have a good chance of getting the speciality you want.
AMEN
 
While this is true, isn't it much more difficult to do this at a State school vs. an Ivy due to class rank/actual grading. Just looking at the numbers, many more people get the speciality of their choice out of an Ivy vs. state schools. I know it's possible out of a state school but seems like you would have to be pretty much the Ace of your class to have a good chance of getting the speciality you want.

Just curious, what numbers are you looking at? I've found it difficult to get good stats out of schools for their specialty rates. Some make them publicly available, but most seem to hide them away.

I know a lot of people will balk at this, but I think ASDOH may be one of the best schools in the nation for specialization. When I interviewed there last year I couldn't believe how many of their students went into peds and ortho (something like 12 went into peds and another 4 into ortho the previous year according to their dean). Around 30-40% of their class specializes from what I gathered at the interview.

Have a look at this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/asdoh-match-rates.889727/

They have a top-notch clinical program too, but apparently they also have a very high specialization rate. Would be interesting if one of their students chimed in.

These are the fast facts for MWU-AZ. In 2014, 3 of our students entered an OMFS residency which seems comparable to many other programs around the nation. We don't put out a lot of specialists at this program obviously, though I think that is more because our students are generally less interested in specializing. Of those who do want to specialize, most seem interested in OMFS which does seem to line up nicely with our actual specialization rates.

https://www.midwestern.edu/programs_and_admission/az_dental_medicine.html

So my point is, there are many assumptions people make about programs such as ivy is the best for specializing, private is the worst, etc. I think ASDOH is a clear demonstration that it is more about your grades and ECs than the type of school you went to.
 
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While this is true, isn't it much more difficult to do this at a State school vs. an Ivy due to class rank/actual grading. Just looking at the numbers, many more people get the speciality of their choice out of an Ivy vs. state schools. I know it's possible out of a state school but seems like you would have to be pretty much the Ace of your class to have a good chance of getting the speciality you want.

Here's my 2-cents.

If you are an average dental student you will not match into a speciality of your choice. Whether that is because you are at an ivy league program or a state program I am fairly certain it makes little to no difference. No one looking at your CV when you are applying will care if you came from - they will however care about your letters, your scores and how you present yourself.

Even if you match, if you are an average resident and thus an average specialist (any field) you will find that the nature of the industry does not reward average people. 50% percent of residents will be below average. They will likely struggle more in the future as general dentists do more orthodontic treatment as they can neither demonstrate 1) significantly greater efficacy/efficiency of treatment and 2) emerging technologies make orthodontics less technique sensitive (SureSmile/Insignia/Invisialign). However there will always be a place for specialists who can consistently deliver high-quality results that people like.

The top 10% will be successful, like in any industry because they are "aces" and either they have a strong referral base because general dentists like to work with them and moms/dads have consistently heard good things about the practice. To be successful in the future as an orthodontist you must offer the general dentist something they cannot do and mum/dad perceived value.
 
Here's my 2-cents.

If you are an average dental student you will not match into a speciality of your choice. Whether that is because you are at an ivy league program or a state program I am fairly certain it makes little to no difference. No one looking at your CV when you are applying will care if you came from - they will however care about your letters, your scores and how you present yourself.

Even if you match, if you are an average resident and thus an average specialist (any field) you will find that the nature of the industry does not reward average people. 50% percent of residents will be below average. They will likely struggle more in the future as general dentists do more orthodontic treatment as they can neither demonstrate 1) significantly greater efficacy/efficiency of treatment and 2) emerging technologies make orthodontics less technique sensitive (SureSmile/Insignia/Invisialign). However there will always be a place for specialists who can consistently deliver high-quality results that people like.

The top 10% will be successful, like in any industry because they are "aces" and either they have a strong referral base because general dentists like to work with them and moms/dads have consistently heard good things about the practice. To be successful in the future as an orthodontist you must offer the general dentist something they cannot do and mum/dad perceived value.
4 omfs is very different than 12 at UPENN. 4 ortho is is different than 22 at UPENN...
 
Here's my 2-cents.

If you are an average dental student you will not match into a speciality of your choice. Whether that is because you are at an ivy league program or a state program I am fairly certain it makes little to no difference. No one looking at your CV when you are applying will care if you came from - they will however care about your letters, your scores and how you present yourself.

Even if you match, if you are an average resident and thus an average specialist (any field) you will find that the nature of the industry does not reward average people. 50% percent of residents will be below average. They will likely struggle more in the future as general dentists do more orthodontic treatment as they can neither demonstrate 1) significantly greater efficacy/efficiency of treatment and 2) emerging technologies make orthodontics less technique sensitive (SureSmile/Insignia/Invisialign). However there will always be a place for specialists who can consistently deliver high-quality results that people like.

The top 10% will be successful, like in any industry because they are "aces" and either they have a strong referral base because general dentists like to work with them and moms/dads have consistently heard good things about the practice. To be successful in the future as an orthodontist you must offer the general dentist something they cannot do and mum/dad perceived value.

Fair points, I guess some argue since it's harder to get into the Ivy dental schools it's less likely you are going to be an average dental student. I have no idea though. I don't plan on being an average student but having not picked up a hand piece yet it's very difficult to tell how good I will be at the non-didactic coursework. What I do know is that out of my state school only two people went into ortho. Now, while I'm sure at the Ivy schools it would still take considerable amount of effort to specialize, given the numbers that do specialize out of the Ivy's I don't think it requires the same effort that it would out of my state school.

You're 100% about having to be a committed professional though if you want to be successful in your speciality. I want to give it my 110% no matter where I go because I know in the future if I do specialize that GP's will become more and more competitive as they branch into more treatments. Since I'm planning on eventually setting up in a less saturated part in the country I hope this won't be as much of an issue.


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4 omfs is very different than 12 at UPENN. 4 ortho is is different than 22 at UPENN...

I think you maybe meant to reply to my post.

Where are you finding these statistics? I found a single article about ortho grads from UPENN and it put the number at 12 in 2011 from a class of 120: http://www.dental.upenn.edu/news_an...stdoctoral_spots_in_orthodontic_program_match

You are comparing UPENN to MWU, and as I said in my post, MWU students are generally less interested in specializing than other schools are. That is a huge part of the reason people go there. You have skipped entirely over the point of my post which was to say that ASDOH, which is a private school, is putting out specialists at a similar rate to the ivy schools including UPENN. ASDOH matched 14 into peds from a class of only 74. I mention peds only because I don't remember what number they gave for ortho unfortunately.
 
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I think you maybe meant to reply to my post.

Where are you finding these statistics? I found a single article about ortho grads from UPENN and it put the number at 12 in 2011 from a class of 120: http://www.dental.upenn.edu/news_an...stdoctoral_spots_in_orthodontic_program_match

You are comparing UPENN to MWU, and as I said in my post, MWU students are generally less interested in specializing than other schools are. That is a huge part of the reason people go there. You have skipped entirely over the point of my post which was to say that ASDOH, which is a private school, is putting out specialists at a similar rate to the ivy schools including UPENN. ASDOH matched 14 into peds from a class of only 74.
It simply isn't. Please stop spreading lies to further your agenda of making ASDOH look so great (as a specialty feeder). The ASDOH link you provided showed only 4 per matches Also what specialities are we talking about. When it comes to ortho and omfs, the ivies have 3-4x as many people match, often with a 90% match rate. We were given a fact sheet on last years match at our interview.
 
It simply isn't. Please stop spreading lies to further your agenda of making ASDOH look so great (as a specialty feeder). The ASDOH link you provided showed only 4 per matches Also what specialities are we talking about. When it comes to ortho and omfs, the ivies have 3-4x as many people match, often with a 90% match rate. We were given a fact sheet on last years match at our interview.

I posted a link to MWU-AZ, not an ASDOH link. Those are two completely different schools. Maybe reread my posts before labelling me a liar with an agenda.

I would like to see some actual stats because I have found that schools often don't often make them public. Most of what people say about public vs. private vs. ivy is largely anecdotal. Hard numbers would be nice to have. With regard to UPENN, the only info I could find showed only half the ortho specialty matches that you had claimed, but if you have evidence to the contrary it would be interesting to see.
 
I feel like saying that someone is blatantly lying is ridiculous coming from someone with no experience other than being pre dent
 
Surprised no one has brought this up but I think a huge reason ivy league schools push so many students into specialties is because they attract students who want to specialize. Many state schools have top 10 students who don't want to, and never intended on specializing. Specializing is way more student dependent than school dependent.
 
Personal statements is Literally a cyber bully and should get off SDN
 
Surprised no one has brought this up but I think a huge reason ivy league schools push so many students into specialties is because they attract students who want to specialize. Many state schools have top 10 students who don't want to, and never intended on specializing. Specializing is way more student dependent than school dependent.

This is what I was kind of trying to get at by saying that ASDOH has high specialty rates despite being private, where MWU-AZ just across town has low specialty rates. It is very student dependent. Ask most people in our class if they plan to specialize and the answer is no. I assume it is different over at ASDOH given their specialty rates.
 
Surprised no one has brought this up but I think a huge reason ivy league schools push so many students into specialties is because they attract students who want to specialize. Many state schools have top 10 students who don't want to, and never intended on specializing. Specializing is way more student dependent than school dependent.
What I'm saying is this: if you go to a state school and want to get into ortho, you better be top 10 in your class! There are always excepttions but that's the rule. Ivies, not so much
 
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If you don't have the capacity to specialize through a state school you won't have the capacity to specialize at an Ivy.

If you have the capacity to specialize though an Ivy you'll easily have the capacity to specialize through a state school.

Think about those two statements for a minute....and save yourself a few hundred thousand dollars.

There's absolutely not reason to go to and Ivy that cost more. ZERO.
 
What I'm saying is this: if you go to a state school and want to get into ortho, you better be too 10 in your class! There are always exceptions but that's the rule. Ivies, not so much

If you don't have the capacity to specialize through a state school you won't have the capacity to specialize at an Ivy.

If you have the capacity to specialize though an Ivy you'll easily have the capacity to specialize through a state school.

Think about those two statements for a minute....and save yourself a few hundred thousand dollars.

There's absolutely not reason to go to and Ivy that cost more. ZERO.

But based on the numbers this seems to not be true.
There's no way if all 22 people at UPENN that persornalstatment was referring to at UPENN went to a state school they would ALL be able to match for Ortho, if for no other reason than class rank. So then I would like to know what is the % chance greater of getting the specialty you want if you go to an Ivy.

Also, everyone on SDN loves to say there is no reason to go to an Ivy, yet plenty of smart people (Ari for example) choose to when they could have gone to their state school. So I am curious why that is. If I am lucky enough to get into both my state school and the Ivy I applied to it'll be a hard decision for sure.
 
But based on the numbers this seems to not be true.
There's no way if all 22 people at UPENN that persornalstatment was referring to at UPENN went to a state school they would ALL be able to match for Ortho, if for no other reason than class rank. So then I would like to know what is the % chance greater of getting the specialty you want if you go to an Ivy.

Also, everyone on SDN loves to say there is no reason to go to an Ivy, yet plenty of smart people (Ari for example) choose to when they could have gone to their state school. So I am curious why that is. If I am lucky enough to get into both my state school and the Ivy I applied to it'll be a hard decision for sure.
Could not like this enough...
 
The number 22 you're seeing is simply a function of the high concentration of high caliber students going to UPENN, not UPENN itself. These same students who did well in undergrad + DAT are going to have the capacity to do well on exams like the CBSE and GRE for specialty programs. Specialty programs know the Ivy schools have a large number of students with 4.0 and 23+ DAT scores so I can only imagine that gets taken into consideration since not everyone will be #1 in their class. If you placed those same 22 students in a state school they'd rise to the top in their programs. The program doesn't matter as much as the individual student, and I think that's the point I'm trying to make. The 22 students going into ortho is because those students made it happen not because UPENN gave them a magic pass into those programs.

Smart people are still very susceptible to appeasing and stroking their egos, which is the main reason anyone would pay more to go to an Ivy to get the same education, because financially it doesn't make any sense.

When you graduate and you realize your license to practice is exact same as the guy who went to a no-name state school and you're getting paid the same, based off production, that's called being a sucker, IMO.
 
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But based on the numbers this seems to not be true.
There's no way if all 22 people at UPENN that persornalstatment was referring to at UPENN went to a state school they would ALL be able to match for Ortho, if for no other reason than class rank. So then I would like to know what is the % chance greater of getting the specialty you want if you go to an Ivy.

Also, everyone on SDN loves to say there is no reason to go to an Ivy, yet plenty of smart people (Ari for example) choose to when they could have gone to their state school. So I am curious why that is. If I am lucky enough to get into both my state school and the Ivy I applied to it'll be a hard decision for sure.

What I find particularly frustrating about this thread is that there are unsubstantiated numbers being thrown around as fact with no supporting evidence. If 22 people went into ortho from UPENN then that is great, but it would be interesting to see where these numbers are coming from. I have long tried to find accurate and substantiated numbers on SDN and Google with regard to specialization rates and I find that it is often difficult if not impossible to come up with them for the majority of schools. I am guilty of using unofficial numbers as well obviously. The 30-40% specialization rate I cited for ASDOH is based on my own interview experience and the thread I linked to earlier. It would be nice if they had the actual stats on their website like MWU-AZ does...

It would also be fantastic if someone had the lowdown on where these numbers can be found. I am sure that some residencies care about where you went to dental school, but I believe that most do not. Again, I would love to see evidence to the contrary if I am wrong.

I couldn't agree with @Mascota more. If 22 students went into ortho from UPENN I would be willing to bet that they had their mind set on specializing when they went to school. You look at a school like MWU where fully 1/3 to 1/2 of the graduating class has children, and compare that to a school like UPENN where kids are the exception, and I think you see that the schools are culturally different. I stand by what I said earlier. You can specialize from any school if you are near the top of your class. You also can't go ivy, wind up an average student, and expect to get into your residency of choice.

The reason I find this frustrating is because you have people who anecdotally assume that spending significantly more money to go to an ivy league school rather than their state school must mean that they benefit somehow. Their immediate assumption is that ivy = specialty. It is difficult then to know if the reason people go to those schools is because they associate them with specialization, or if those schools actually better prepare students to specialize. That is why I brought up a private program with a high rate of specialization, because I think it suggests that the former may be true.
 
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The number 22 you're seeing is simply a function of the high concentration of high caliber students going to UPENN, not UPENN itself. These same students who did well in undergrad + DAT are going to have the capacity to do well on exams like the CBSE and GRE for specialty programs. Specialty programs know the Ivy schools have a large number of students with 4.0 and 23+ DAT scores so I can only imagine that gets taken into consideration since not everyone will be #1 in their class. If you placed those same 22 students in a state school they'd rise to the top in their programs. The program doesn't matter as much as the individual student, and I think that's the point I'm trying to make. The 22 students going into ortho is because those students made it happen not because UPENN gave them a magic pass into those programs.

Smart people are still very susceptible to appeasing and stroking their egos, which is the main reason anyone would pay more to go to an Ivy to get the same education, because financially it doesn't make any sense.

When you graduate and you realize your license to practice is exact same as the guy who went to a no-name state school and you're getting paid the same, based off production, that's called being a sucker, IMO.

Hey guys I agree with your points about choosing the cheaper school and stuff, but I don't agree with the statement of the 22 students that went to ivies going into state schools magically being at the top of their respective state schools. At many state schools, DAT and GPA averages are not that much lower than say Upenn, and many kids get into these ivies but choose to go to the cheaper school (as per your advices). I think those 22 students going to a state school would have a harder time being in the top 1-5 of a state school than being a midrank or killing CBSE stuff at their respective ivy league or "high ranked" schools.
 
The number 22 you're seeing is simply a function of the high concentration of high caliber students going to UPENN, not UPENN itself. These same students who did well in undergrad + DAT are going to have the capacity to do well on exams like the CBSE and GRE for specialty programs. Specialty programs know the Ivy schools have a large number of students with 4.0 and 23+ DAT scores so I can only imagine that gets taken into consideration since not everyone will be #1 in their class. If you placed those same 22 students in a state school they'd rise to the top in their programs. The program doesn't matter as much as the individual student, and I think that's the point I'm trying to make. The 22 students going into ortho is because those students made it happen not because UPENN gave them a magic pass into those programs.

Smart people are still very susceptible to appeasing and stroking their egos, which is the main reason anyone would pay more to go to an Ivy to get the same education, because financially it doesn't make any sense.

When you graduate and you realize your license to practice is exact same as the guy who went to a no-name state school and you're getting paid the same, based off production, that's called being a sucker, IMO.

True, but doing well in non-didactic courses has less to do with how smart you are and how good you are with your hands (And also how hard working you are to practice to make up for bad hands). I know personally at my state school it's not the didactic courses that sucker people, it's operative classes that do people in(Meaning they don't get an A to stay at the top), and that is my biggest concern for picking it over say an Ivy.
 
What I find particularly frustrating about this thread is that there are unsubstantiated numbers being thrown around as fact with no supporting evidence. If 22 people went into ortho from UPENN then that is great, but it would be interesting to see where these numbers are coming from. I have long tried to find accurate and substantiated numbers on SDN and Google with regard to specialization rates and I find that it is often difficult if not impossible to come up with them for the majority of schools. I am guilty of using unofficial numbers as well obviously. The 30-40% specialization rate I cited for ASDOH is based on my own interview experience and the thread I linked to earlier. It would be nice if they had the actual stats on their website like MWU-AZ does...

It would also be fantastic if someone had the lowdown on where these numbers can be found. I am sure that some residencies care about where you went to dental school, but I believe that most do not. Again, I would love to see evidence to the contrary if I am wrong.

I couldn't agree with @Mascota more. If 22 students went into ortho from UPENN I would be willing to bet that they had their mind set on specializing when they went to school. You look at a school like MWU where fully 1/3 to 1/2 of the graduating class has children, and compare that to a school like UPENN where kids are the exception, and I think you see that the schools are culturally different. I stand by what I said earlier. You can specialize from any school if you are near the top of your class. You also can't go ivy, wind up an average student, and expect to get into your residency of choice.

The reason I find this frustrating is because you have people who anecdotally assume that spending significantly more money to go to an ivy league school rather than their state school must mean that they benefit somehow. Their immediate assumption is that ivy = specialty. It is difficult then to know if the reason people go to those schools is because they associate them with specialization, or if those schools actually better prepare students to specialize. That is why I brought up a private program with a high rate of specialization, because I think it suggests that the former may be true.

I have some numbers you can chew on for Columbia.

In their 2016 class 9 people matched for OMFS, 8 for peds, 4 for perio, 3 for endo, 1 for pros, and 9 in Ortho. Total class size was 82 people. Just taking OMFS and Ortho that is already 21% of the class.

If my state school was only grading off didactic courses I would have no worries, but I know from alumni at my undergrad that it's the operative/clinical classes that get people (My state school says their focus is making dentists not specialists). This is my concern, not because I don't believe in my hands but I have no idea if the same semester I learn to do a crown prep I can give what they require for an A etc.

(I should say I haven't been accepted anywhere yet and would be happy to get into any school right now 😛 )
 
I have some numbers you can chew on for Columbia.

In their 2016 class 9 people matched for OMFS, 8 for peds, 4 for perio, 3 for endo, 1 for pros, and 9 in Ortho. Total class size was 82 people. Just taking OMFS and Ortho that is already 21% of the class.

If my state school was only grading off didactic courses I would have no worries, but I know from alumni at my undergrad that it's the operative/clinical classes that get people (My state school says their focus is making dentists not specialists). This is my concern, not because I don't believe in my hands but I have no idea if the same semester I learn to do a crown prep I can give what they require for an A etc.

(I should say I haven't been accepted anywhere yet and would be happy to get into any school right now 😛 )
Honestly I feel it depends on how big the price hike will be to justify it. Finances seems to be a huge motivator for you (not that that's bad), so debt truly should be taken into account. However, if your state school options are not that big of a price difference (maybe ilke 70k off) it would be in your favor. If you're in Texas then I feel OOS just is not worth it, but some states are not as low in price.
 
It's interesting how it's always non-Ivy students commenting in these threads. People are always going to justify and support their own decision. Comparing the interview at my state school vs the interview at an Ivy it seems like there is a stark contrast in the caliber of the education, facilities, and from what it seems like from the outside, opportunities at the Ivy. But again, this is just what it seems like as an interviewee. And, the price difference between my state school and the Ivy is actually not as large as everyone says. We only have one crack at dental school, and if I feel like I will have better opportunities at another school, I will go there, ESPECIALLY if the price difference is not that significant.
 
Honestly I feel it depends on how big the price hike will be to justify it. Finances seems to be a huge motivator for you (not that that's bad), so debt truly should be taken into account. However, if your state school options are not that big of a price difference (maybe ilke 70k off) it would be in your favor. If you're in Texas then I feel OOS just is not worth it, but some states are not as low in price.

I'm not in Texas but my state school is pretty cheap, tuition and fees would be around 140-160k not accounting for annual tuition increases


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It's interesting how it's always non-Ivy students commenting in these threads. People are always going to justify and support their own decision. Comparing the interview at my state school vs the interview at an Ivy it seems like there is a stark contrast in the caliber of the education, facilities, and from what it seems like from the outside, opportunities at the Ivy. But again, this is just what it seems like as an interviewee. And, the price difference between my state school and the Ivy is actually not as large as everyone says. We only have one crack at dental school, and if I feel like I will have better opportunities at another school, I will go there, ESPECIALLY if the price difference is not that significant.

Yeah I've always wanted to get the opinion of the people who got in and choose to go to an ivy but they never respond ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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It's interesting how it's always non-Ivy students commenting in these threads. People are always going to justify and support their own decision. Comparing the interview at my state school vs the interview at an Ivy it seems like there is a stark contrast in the caliber of the education, facilities, and from what it seems like from the outside, opportunities at the Ivy. But again, this is just what it seems like as an interviewee. And, the price difference between my state school and the Ivy is actually not as large as everyone says. We only have one crack at dental school, and if I feel like I will have better opportunities at another school, I will go there, ESPECIALLY if the price difference is not that significant.
You have this down perfectly. It's like they are all trying to justify their decisions.
 
I think it has to do more with the fact that many of the Ivies, UConn, etc. are (H)/P/F. So even if you aren't ranked at the top, you will not lose out on a chance at residency like you would at a non P/F school. Also P/F schools take a lot more stress of your back and some are designed this way with the underlying intention to give you more time to study for ADAT, CBSE, etc.
 
I think it has to do more with the fact that many of the Ivies, UConn, etc. are (H)/P/F. So even if you aren't ranked at the top, you will not lose out on a chance at residency like you would at a non P/F school. Also P/F schools take a lot more stress of your back and some are designed this way with the underlying intention to give you more time to study for ADAT, CBSE, etc.

Yes I agree, so I think most of the P/F schools will have this advantage. Sadly my state school isn't P/F 🙁
 
I think this explains the increased success of students specializing after going to UConn or UCLA as well. I have heard that McGill from Canada had 90% of its students go into GPRs and 30% eventually going into a non-GPR specialty. They used to be P/F for the first 2 years (medical school curriculum) and now have made it P/F all 4 years with indication if you're in the top 10% or top 25% only. I would guess that this 30% for non-GPR specialties will jump quite a bit with these changes. I think medical curricula in dental schools can help greatly for the CBSE as well.

I think going to a cheaper school is important BUT it's not just about the benjamins. Many students going into Ivies already know from Day 1 they want to specialize. And if you know that from the get-go, you're going to be determined to get it.

Also, if I recall correctly, there is quite a bit of nepotism in ortho matching and matching in general. So even if you don't go to a P/F school, just make the most out of your opportunities.

Bottom line is: if you're really determined to specialize, you eventually will. Maybe it'll take longer than your buddies, but you will. Dentistry appreciates really hard and dedicated folks.
 
Yes I agree, so I think most of the P/F schools will have this advantage. Sadly my state school isn't P/F 🙁

I have finally figured out why it bothers me when people say that ivy league schools give you a better chance at specializing. That is the wrong distinction.... The real distinction is academic vs. non-academic programs.

UCSF has a VERY high rate of specialization, despite being a state school outside of the ivy league. Pitt, UCLA, Michigan, UCONN, all have high or above average rates of specialization despite not being ivy league. They are all academic programs though and they participate heavily in research. This distinction of ivy league vs. non-ivy league is meaningless. There are only a few ivy league dental schools in the nation, but there are many other schools outside of the northeast which produce large numbers of specialists. If any distinction can really be made, it is probably academic vs. non-academic as it is in medicine, and even then there are a few schools like ASDOH which still defy that basic principle.

You have this down perfectly. It's like they are all trying to justify their decisions.

I am not sure who else you would be talking about, so I assume this was directed at me. Correct me if I'm mistaken. I chose a school with a low rate of specialization because I am not sure I want to specialize. Therefore, I chose the school with the best clinical program of all the schools I got into.

It's interesting how it's always non-Ivy students commenting in these threads. People are always going to justify and support their own decision. Comparing the interview at my state school vs the interview at an Ivy it seems like there is a stark contrast in the caliber of the education, facilities, and from what it seems like from the outside, opportunities at the Ivy. But again, this is just what it seems like as an interviewee. And, the price difference between my state school and the Ivy is actually not as large as everyone says. We only have one crack at dental school, and if I feel like I will have better opportunities at another school, I will go there, ESPECIALLY if the price difference is not that significant.

I don't see people justifying the decisions they made in this thread, but I may be overlooking something. In my case, I was advocating for going to the cheaper state option despite the fact that I am at a private school with a relatively low rate of specialization.
 
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Everyone, it's important not to confound Ivies with P/F. Some non-Ivies are P/F too and they are also very successful at specializing.
Cello is right too. And I believe that Cello will make a great GP in the future.

I think GP is one of the best, if not the best, "specialty". Do what you want, refer what you don't. In a bad economy, you can choose to keep things in house provided you don't have super tight relationships with specialists of all types. It's pretty cool to move from implants in 1 chair to resto in another to 6 month braces in another. Perio is pretty cool with the grafting too. GP also features the longest term relationships and no butt-kissing of others for work like specialists.
 
Everyone, it's important not to confound Ivies with P/F. Some non-Ivies are P/F too and they are also very successful at specializing.
Cello is right too. And I believe that Cello will make a great GP in the future.

I think GP is one of the best, if not the best, "specialty". Do what you want, refer what you don't. In a bad economy, you can choose to keep things in house provided you don't have super tight relationships with specialists of all types. It's pretty cool to move from implants in 1 chair to resto in another to 6 month braces in another. Perio is pretty cool with the grafting too. GP also features the longest term relationships and no butt-kissing of others for work like specialists.

This is what attracted me to dentistry in the first place, and what I like about GP. However after some research it seems based on the school and your situation it's much harder to learn things like implants and ortho to the standard of care without taking a TON of CE / doing a residency. The dentist I shadowed did it but it took him a very long time so just a lot to consider. I know if I wanted to be a GP outside of my state school MWU-AZ would be the place to go.


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I think it has to do more with the fact that many of the Ivies, UConn, etc. are (H)/P/F. So even if you aren't ranked at the top, you will not lose out on a chance at residency like you would at a non P/F school. Also P/F schools take a lot more stress of your back and some are designed this way with the underlying intention to give you more time to study for ADAT, CBSE, etc.
Yep an oral surgeon resident told me that if you were dead set on specializing, ivies give an edge because of P/F.. So instead of students stressfully scrounging for a few more points on X or Y exam, they are studying their butts off for the CBSE from the get go. He told me that there's no question specializing is easier in this scenario (and obviously he knows all the stuff you guys are saying about how ivy kids might be "higher calibre" so disregard that variable), it's just that cost may not justify it if you are confident you can specialize from a state school. If you lack confidence or want to pay for a slightly higher chance, I would go ivy for sure. He did mention that ivy or other residents in his residency were not as strong clinically as from the school he went to, so if you don't specialize due to grades or finding out you don't want to, you could slightly negatively affect clinical skills.
 
If we were to wander over to the medical side of SDN, this specialization discussion seems to be very similar to pre-meds attempting to read match lists, with those farther along in the training pathway trying to tell them that match lists don't really say anything meaningful for incoming medical students or applicants.

Here's one example:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ve-specialty-residency.1179264/#post-17324214

Basically, looking at match lists, we don't know if the top students always wanted to go into the less competitive, primary care programs that are in areas near their social support systems, or in their dream cities, even if they are in middle of nowhere, USA. Thus, those top students "seem" less competitive, but it is only because we aren't aware of their motivations.

In addition, if you go to a school that sends a few residents to the specialty program you are hoping for in previous years, but they then perform poorly in that specialty program, the program director may be less likely to admit you due to the recent negative track record of residents from your dental school. This further complicates the ability to "read" specialty statistics, as there is the potential for wide variation each year, both on the dental school side, and the specialty program side.

From the 2016 survey of medical residency program directors, only 56% cite "Graduate of highly‐regarded U.S. medical school" as a "Factor in Selecting Applicants to Interview," and those that do, do not rank it particularly highly compared to the only factors cited:
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/NRMP-2016-Program-Director-Survey.pdf
(Pg. 3)

That low rating seems to be consistent across these surveys, which I believe are released annually.

In addition, as we can also see from the medical forums, many pass/fail medical schools have systems of grading that still rank students. Even without a formal ranking, residency programs seem to often get a letter of evaluation from a school's dean for each student, which apparently comes with a key explaining what the adjectives used in the dean's letter correspond to in terms of student performance and relative class rank:

Here's one example of a thread discussing this: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/list-of-pass-fail-m-d-schools.1175838/#post-17257506

So even the schools that seem truly pass/fail may not actually be what we think they are.

Thus, trying to interpret this very intangible evidence seems to be very unlikely to yield meaningful results when it comes to our trajectory after dental school.

However, if anyone is able to find more concrete evidence, as Cello mentioned, that might help in making a more informed decision about school choice and specialization. Until then, however, a lot of what we are doing when judging a dental school in terms of its potential for specialization might just be hand waving.

I hope that helps.
 
I believe one thing that is often mentioned on the medical side of SDN, by medical residents and attendings, is that having a specialty programs at our institution can be very helpful with specialization, as it allows us to become much more easily exposed to the specialty.

In addition, we ideally create a positive relationship with the specialty program that will not only allow us a better chance at gaining entry into our "home program," but also allows us to get valuable recommendations from the specialty program director(s) that can then be used to strengthen our candidacy for specialty programs at other schools.

Without specialty programs at our home institution, we have to work much harder to gain exposure to the specialty and to demonstrate the strength of our candidacy as a specialty applicant.
 
Good discussion. One other thing I'd like to point out is that specializing in ortho and ortho CE as a GP are two VERY different things. Doing weekend courses or even longer courses =/= ortho residency. It's rare for GPs to even attempt Class IIIs. CE is more like being competent at ortho and residency is like understanding how things actually work and the mechanics. So while both may produce similar results, there is a lot of theory that is found in residency.

Do ortho if that's the only thing you want to do. Do ortho CE if you still like restorative and want to dabble in other things. Once again I'd like to reiterate that being a GP dentist is a sweet gig. It's hard to get bored as a GP, there are always things you can improve and be competent in.

"However after some research it seems based on the school and your situation it's much harder to learn things like implants and ortho to the standard of care without taking a TON of CE / doing a residency." Of course - but that's why not all GPs do these procedures. It can be a headache for some and awesome for others. Being a GP means you can keep abreast with many things. Some people love it, some don't. If you're doing ortho, you're going to be doing lots of CE. And you will be held to the standard of a specialist.
 
Good discussion. One other thing I'd like to point out is that specializing in ortho and ortho CE as a GP are two VERY different things. Doing weekend courses or even longer courses =/= ortho residency. It's rare for GPs to even attempt Class IIIs. CE is more like being competent at ortho and residency is like understanding how things actually work and the mechanics. So while both may produce similar results, there is a lot of theory that is found in residency.

Do ortho if that's the only thing you want to do. Do ortho CE if you still like restorative and want to dabble in other things. Once again I'd like to reiterate that being a GP dentist is a sweet gig. It's hard to get bored as a GP, there are always things you can improve and be competent in.

"However after some research it seems based on the school and your situation it's much harder to learn things like implants and ortho to the standard of care without taking a TON of CE / doing a residency." Of course - but that's why not all GPs do these procedures. It can be a headache for some and awesome for others. Being a GP means you can keep abreast with many things. Some people love it, some don't. If you're doing ortho, you're going to be doing lots of CE. And you will be held to the standard of a specialist.

Couldn't agree more! In another post on SDN an ortho told me in their opinion it wasn't worth to try to do Ortho as a GP since you wouldn't get to do the complex procedures. Of course they are biased, but I can see value in what they are saying.


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Not that you wouldn't get to do them, you'd either a) Prefer not to because they are too complex, or b) It's just not worth your time/headaches financially.
It's the same thing with endos, 3rds extractions, etc.

Interesting how a poster compared medicine to dentistry. They have to match to something while dental students don't. And the GP in medicine can't dabble in everything like a GP dentist can. GP dentist any way of the week sounds good!
 
Not that you wouldn't get to do them, you'd either a) Prefer not to because they are too complex, or b) It's just not worth your time/headaches financially.
It's the same thing with endos, 3rds extractions, etc.

Interesting how a poster compared medicine to dentistry. They have to match to something while dental students don't. And the GP in medicine can't dabble in everything like a GP dentist can. GP dentist any way of the week sounds good!

There is a match process for dental residencies, no?
 
Just some food for thought. We had a guest lecturer who was on the admission board for ortho residency at my school. He said that they very rarely admit students from P/F schools. He said that there is no clear way to evaluate those students without scores, so they stay away from them.
 
Just some food for thought. We had a guest lecturer who was on the admission board for ortho residency at my school. He said that they very rarely admit students from P/F schools. He said that there is no clear way to evaluate those students without scores, so they stay away from them.

They have the ADAT. Also clearly someone is taking them with the rates the Ivy's pump out people to specialities


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They have the ADAT. Also clearly someone is taking them with the rates the Ivy's pump out people to specialities


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To be fair, Columbia has pass/fail/honors and I'm pretty sure Penn ranks, so it's not really a good example.


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