Grading: plus/minus system. Thoughts!

[UAmike]

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So, the University of Alabama has the plus/minus grading system. I do not care for it as I believe is geared more towards people who struggle in classes. I was wondering what you guys thought about this system. I think my GPA is a bit higher without plus and minuses due to the fact I have made a few B minuses which count as a 2.7 on a 4.0 scale.

 

[nyanko]

I like +/- systems, honestly, because I tend to be one of those types who hovers betweeen 88-95 and I'd rather have a B+ than a B 😉

In the end it's just further delineation though - really think it helps/hurts people equally so it's not unfair or anything..

 

[StartingoverVet]

I like +/- systems, honestly, because I tend to be one of those types who hovers betweeen 88-95 and I'd rather have a B+ than a B 😉

In the end it's just further delineation though - really think it helps/hurts people equally so it's not unfair or anything..

"Ditto" for undergrad.

Personally I think grad/professional schools should do away with grades all together. I'm more interested in learning the material properly than getting a better grade. Honestly, having to study from old exams etc pisses me off, yet I still do it.

As for me, I have had both and have no preference (although I was slightly annoyed that getting an A+ at UCLA does nothing for your GPA but getting an A- certainly did).

 

[GellaBella]

I also really like +/- grading systems because like Nyanko I'm also usually in the B+ to A range. I'd much prefer to get a 3.3 for my effort than a 3.0, but that's me.

I actually really didn't like it when I took a class at Rutgers and there was no +/- system. 🙂

 

[laitmanvet]

I also really like +/- grading systems because like Nyanko I'm also usually in the B+ to A range. I'd much prefer to get a 3.3 for my effort than a 3.0, but that's me.

I actually really didn't like it when I took a class at Rutgers and there was no +/- system. 🙂

When I was at Rutgers we had + but no - (well there was no A+ or D+ if I remember correctly...OK so we only had B+ and C+.)
In some ways it was nice....if you had a low 90s or low 80s grade you'd get the A or B instead of the minus grade (which I think would have a higher GPA point value.) I think my senior yr they thought about adding the +, but science people turned it down....not really sure why.

 

[Chinola]

I'm definitely a fan of +/-. I had a professor that didn't do them (just him, not the whole school) and we all hated it. I went into the final with a B and knew that there was basically no way to get to the A. I feel like I had less to strive for because once I was within the B range it was hard to improve.

 

[su_grad2007]

Depending on which vet schools you apply to, some convert the th +/- system to regular A's and B's, others don't

 

[vetme]

I don't think I would like the +/- system. I have never had to deal with it. I do like the non +/- system though. My HS did have a more stringent grading system i.e. 93% and above was an A instead of 90% and above. So it could be considered a form of the +/- system. I didn't like it.

 

[Coquette22]

I'm definitely a fan of +/-. I had a professor that didn't do them (just him, not the whole school) and we all hated it. I went into the final with a B and knew that there was basically no way to get to the A. I feel like I had less to strive for because once I was within the B range it was hard to improve.

This. If I can't get an A, well maybe I can at least push for a B+. I also think it's not necessarily fair to the people who say, just barely missed an A to be lumped in with the people who just barely scraped into the B category. I think without the +/-, there's too much gap between categories.

 

[vetme]

This. If I can't get an A, well maybe I can at least push for a B+. I also think it's not necessarily fair to the people who say, just barely missed an A to be lumped in with the people who just barely scraped into the B category. I think without the +/-, there's too much gap between categories.

this is very competitive thinking.....which is not a bad thing, but it is dripping in it. plus I think that we need to get used to things that are unfair in our lives because there is alot of that too🙂

 

[Coquette22]

this is very competitive thinking.....which is not a bad thing, but it is dripping in it. plus I think that we need to get used to things that are unfair in our lives because there is alot of that too🙂

Because some things are unfair, we should accept all things that are unfair? Grading is inherently competitive, whether you have +/- or not. Otherwise everything would just be graded on a pass/fail basis.

For the record, I have grades that were both helped and hurt by the +/- system.

 

[sumstorm]

I guess I care less about the grading system (+/- or not) then how varied it is.

Like some schools do a 3 pt scale so that 98-100 = A+, 95-97.9999 = A, 93-95.9999 = A-, etc, while other schools have 96-100 is A/A+, 90-95 is A-, etc, and then that the GPA points aren't consistent either. IE in some schools an A+ is 4.3, A = 4.0, A- = 3.66, while at other schools an A+ literally means you never missed a point in class (100%) and is a 4.0, and an A- = 3.33.

 

[sumstorm]

Grading is inherently competitive, whether you have +/- or not. Otherwise everything would just be graded on a pass/fail basis.

A lot of med schools and at least one vet school have moved in this direction.

 

[nyanko]

Yeah, but the problem is that a lot of the med schools that have still have HP (high pass) and H (honors) so like, people are still gunning for those.

 

[Coquette22]

A lot of med schools and at least one vet school have moved in this direction.

This is true, and I have no qualms about pass/fail systems. I was just replying to the idea that +/- is more competitive than non +/-. Both are systems of ranking, and I just think that +/- is a more accurate way of ranking. In the same breath as it's not fair for a high B and a low B to both be a B, I also think it's not fair that someone can be just shy of a B and get a C and someone else can get just a smidge higher and have a B. I know that problem exists in the +/- system as well, I just feel that smaller gaps in between rankings is more fair.

 

[sumstorm]

Yeah, but the problem is that a lot of the med schools that have still have HP (high pass) and H (honors) so like, people are still gunning for those.

Yeah, even our pass fail classes here are now 'pass w/honors, pass, fail'. We jokingly call it 'super pass' and it's absurd thing I've seen. Just pointing out that some places have already moved onto the pass/fail system...and my understanding is more than the categories of pass/fail, the competition then turns to class rank.

 

[squirrelsrule]

My school does the plus/minus and I don't like it! You can't get an A+ (have had over 100% in a couple bio classes and still no plus) but you can get A-. I got ONE A- in an english class (where the grading scale was 90-93 is a B+, 93-95 is an A- and 95-100% is an A) and it has made my GPA 3.99 instead of 4.0. Still makes me mad even though it doesn't really matter! I had a 93.5% so I should just be happy I got the A- instead of a B+, but it frustrates me that that one class brought me down. Oh well.

 

[bre8162]

I am not so fond of the +/- system. Have it at u of I... seems to me I always end up on the minus end and when I get an A+ it does nothing for me. I guess it just matters if you are always fighting to make a grade or keep a grade.

 

[EllieGirl89]

Love, love LOVE the +/- system. They have it here at Ohio State and it has helped me WAYYYY more than it has hurt me. The only time it "hurt" me was the one class I got an A- in, but it has really hepled me in the 4ish classes in which I've gotten B+'s and the one class in which I got a C+.

There were also instances at my old school (the community college I went to before Ohio State) that I would have greatly benefited from the +/- system. I got a couple of straight-up B's at that school that I KNOW would have been B+'s and therefore 3.3's had they graded on a +/- system.

 

[2CatMatt]

Depending on which vet schools you apply to, some convert the th +/- system to regular A's and B's, others don't

interesting. so during the application review some schools will actually adjust your GPA? meaning they may change 3.3's to a 3's, for instance? what schools do this?

 

[Robdude]

As long as they have an A+; I don't care.

The problem is every school I've heard of *doesn't* have an A+. In that case, the system does penalize the top students.

 

[sumstorm]

The problem is every school I've heard of *doesn't* have an A+. In that case, the system does penalize the top students.

are you referring to admissions review? realisticly, even using GPA's as a comparison between schools isn't accurate. A 3.6 at one school may be a 3.4 at another and a 3.9 at another.

 

[su_grad2007]

interesting. so during the application review some schools will actually adjust your GPA? meaning they may change 3.3's to a 3's, for instance? what schools do this?

Texas A&M does. Dropped my overall gpa a little bit because I had a few B+ grades. I thought I saw it somewhere else to, but I don't remember at this point who because I only applied to TAMU. I'd check the schools you plan to apply to and see what they do.

 

[HawkeyeVet]

As long as they have an A+; I don't care.

The problem is every school I've heard of *doesn't* have an A+. In that case, the system does penalize the top students.

I assume you are strictly speaking vet schools and not undergrad schools? Because at the U of Iowa they use A+, and it is 4.33.

 

[Robdude]

are you referring to admissions review? realisticly, even using GPA's as a comparison between schools isn't accurate. A 3.6 at one school may be a 3.4 at another and a 3.9 at another.

Not specifically, no. But the few places that I've seen who use the +/- system still cap out at 4.0; they don't give you anything more for an A+ vs. an A. That ends up penalizing 'A' students. B and C students can earn a B-/C- but they can also earn a B+/C+. It's just a more accurate measure of their standing in that class.

But the A students get screwed. If you are in the low end of an A; it's an A-. Less than 4.0. If you are on the high end of an A; that A+ is the same as an A. Now there is no point in scoring above a 96-97 (whatever the cutoff is).

 

[su_grad2007]

As long as they have an A+; I don't care.

The problem is every school I've heard of *doesn't* have an A+. In that case, the system does penalize the top students.

I think this means that the A+ = 4.0 and the A= 4.0 so there is no benefit for receiving the A+ vs an A

 

[Robdude]

I assume you are strictly speaking vet schools and not undergrad schools? Because at the U of Iowa they use A+, and it is 4.33.

Maybe it's not common, I've only been involved with two schools (one undergrad program / one master's program) that used the +/-. It was up to the individual professors/department's to decide if they were going to use the +/- system or not. Likewise, it was up to the individual professor/department to decide if the class would be graded on a curve and what % of the final grade would map to what letter.

Maybe, since it was optional, they wanted to keep 4.0 the max. I don't know; but the end result was I had classes where an A was 4.0 and an A+ was 4.0. It ticked me off.

I don't have any problem with U of Iowa's approach, I think that's fair.

 

[nyanko]

But the A students get screwed. If you are in the low end of an A; it's an A-. Less than 4.0. If you are on the high end of an A; that A+ is the same as an A. Now there is no point in scoring above a 96-97 (whatever the cutoff is).

Except to give yourself a cushion so that you don't end up with an A-. 😉

The science of aiming for a specific grade is, shall we say, pretty imprecise??

 

[squirrelsrule]

Not specifically, no. But the few places that I've seen who use the +/- system still cap out at 4.0; they don't give you anything more for an A+ vs. an A. That ends up penalizing 'A' students. B and C students can earn a B-/C- but they can also earn a B+/C+. It's just a more accurate measure of their standing in that class.

But the A students get screwed. If you are in the low end of an A; it's an A-. Less than 4.0. If you are on the high end of an A; that A+ is the same as an A. Now there is no point in scoring above a 96-97 (whatever the cutoff is).

That was what got me! If they had A+ and it counted for more than 4.0 I would have had an AWESOME GPA because I would have gotten A+ in most of my science classes, I was always first or second best grade in the class. Our school didn't have A+ though, even worth just 4.0. So, you could either get A or A-, there was no benefit to the system for A students! I was lucky to squeak by with just one A- though, because I was no where near as good in my english classes as science. I hate English! Finding hidden meanings and author's point of view is torture for me!

 

[AngSchmange]

I love not having plus minus. But it also depends on the quarter 😛 My first quarter I took a class and got a 79.8, LITERALLY! And I got a C. That's a 2.0. Bummer right?! Seriously.. However, this last quarter I got 2 A's and a B (That dangit B was an 89.65...again with the WTfudge hahaha). And those A's were like, 90 and 91 or something. So some people may think of it as kinda cheating the system when someone get's all low 90's but is getting a 4.0 (personally I know NO ONE at my school like this since it's still very difficult). But it also makes me kinda slack to be honest, if I know I have a 90 I won't strive for like a 96 or something because it's all the same grade. Same with a B, if I'm ok with getting a B in the class it's the same grade for 80-89, and we can 'slack' a bit. So for those getting high B's it's gotta suck, because being that close to an A is still a huge deal in the GPA scale. B being 3.0 and A being 4.0 really is a big difference when you're not considering A- or B+. For me anyways, it's working out 😀

 

[sumstorm]

But the A students get screwed. If you are in the low end of an A; it's an A-. Less than 4.0. If you are on the high end of an A; that A+ is the same as an A. Now there is no point in scoring above a 96-97 (whatever the cutoff is).

Hmmm.... I hear what you are saying, what I am saying is that when ever you take grades from different schools and compare them, likely someone is getting screwed. IE if Hard college only issues 1% or less A's per class, and LessHard college issues 50% A's per class, then A's aren't necessarily comperable. I think that is why a range of GPA's are considered for admissions.

 

[Cautionary Tail]

But it also makes me kinda slack to be honest, if I know I have a 90 I won't strive for like a 96 or something because it's all the same grade. Same with a B, if I'm ok with getting a B in the class it's the same grade for 80-89, and we can 'slack' a bit. So for those getting high B's it's gotta suck, because being that close to an A is still a huge deal in the GPA scale. B being 3.0 and A being 4.0 really is a big difference when you're not considering A- or B+. For me anyways, it's working out 😀

Aaaaand this ^ is why I approve of the plus/minus system.

There are definitely classes I didn't care for where there would have been some slacking once the option of getting an A was gone. Like, say, Orgo II. If I hadn't had the B+ to shoot for, I'm pretty sure I would have coasted, knowing that both the A and C were off the table.

And I'm pretty sure that probably would've come back to bite me later. 😉

 

[AngSchmange]

Yep lol. I went to a plus/minus school for my first 2 years and I got a few B-'s, which would've been B's and thus a higher # on the 4.0 point scale. Such a bummer. I guess it works out if you're getting A's, but not so much if you're getting B's and C's. Which happened to me my first quarter. Now I'm used to the fast paced quarter system, so I'm finally getting A's. I guess it was worth it to me and I wouldn't go back and change it really. Anyways, my current school is going to Plus/Minus in a couple years as well as the semester system, so maybe that is saying something 😛

 

[HawkeyeVet]

Based on what people have said, I think 'approval' of the +/- system depends on if the person has had the +/-, but mostly depends on the type of student the person is. I tend to hover around the A-/B+ range and I like the +/- system. I didn't have +/- in my biochem class and BARELY made the A...
To me, it's worth settling for the A- if I also have the chance for a B+ instead of having to have a B on my transcript if I don't quite try hard enough. It works well with the curve too.

 

[LetItSnow]

Except to give yourself a cushion so that you don't end up with an A-. 😉

The science of aiming for a specific grade is, shall we say, pretty imprecise??

Geez. I don't know about you, but I was one of those uptight undergrads that would sit down and calculate way beyond any reasonable significant digits exactly what I'd have to score on the final to make sure I could keep my A.

Totally pointless/fruitless exercise, but I never could stop myself.

Vet school, however, will be all about "good enough."

 

[nyanko]

Yeah but unless you already know the exact questions on the exam, it's reasonable to assume that you may not get precisely what you are "aiming" for. That was my point. You can say "Well I only need an 87 on this exam to get an A" and then study 87% of the material and if a larger proportion of questions come from the other 13% well now you don't get an 87 despite all your compulsive planning. 😉

 

[LetItSnow]

Yeah but unless you already know the exact questions on the exam, it's reasonable to assume that you may not get precisely what you are "aiming" for. That was my point. You can say "Well I only need an 87 on this exam to get an A" and then study 87% of the material and if a larger proportion of questions come from the other 13% well now you don't get an 87 despite all your compulsive planning. 😉

No, I understood your point - and I agree with it. I wasn't trying to claim my behavior was rational in the least.

Though I will say... I didn't calculate out what I needed so I could adjust my studying. Inevitably, it played out during the test itself. If I needed, say, an 80% to keep my semester A, I breathed one huge big sigh of relief during the final when I completed what I was pretty sure was 80%. 🙂

But you're right: tests never seem to be exactly what you're expecting them to be. At least, for me.

 

[Minnerbelle]

CSU is that one school with no grading. I heard they're deliberating it now because quite frankly the pass/fail with student ranking system is really stupid.

I'm pretty sure that I'll be going straight to general practice, so rankings don't personally matter to me (so to an extent I love the "all I need is a 70%" mantra esp before an exam I didn't start cramming till the night before). But I think it sucks for anyone who at least thinks their rankings matter (whether it really does or not). We keep getting told that your class ranking has absolutely no bearing on your future. And yes, I get that grades aren't everything for the internship/residency match or whatever... but I dunno how many people really believe that ranking doesn't matter.

But for the sake of the discussion going on here (re: the +/- system), I'd say arguments for whether grades are important at all is pretty irrelevant. For the students that grades matter, the ranking system is like the apocalypse. I don't have the exact numbers, but I'm pretty sure that someone who's like a B student can easily rank 100/140. And A students are fighting to rank themselves in the top 40 students or so. The difference in grades between someone with rank #5 and #25 might just be a fraction of a percentage. 'Cause to stay in school, you need above 70% in all your classes. That means that 140 students will all fall between 100 and 70%... and obviously it's not going to be evenly distributed. The separation between students in the middle of that bell curve is pretty scary if you think about it that way (evenly distributed, that's each student being separated by ~0.2%).

Like saying you're a 3.0 student sounds totally decent. It's like, yeah, vet school can be hard and 3.0 is still a very good grade. But reporting you're 100/140 makes you sound kind of bad.

No matter how much the school tries to cut down on competition, students will always competitive. We were told they see the most mental health issues in students within the top quartile... and I can kind of see why. And it doesn't help that we have a bunch of exams that are take-home but CLOSED BOOK. I think that's really unfair to honest students whose grades suffer at the expense of dishonest students who can easily get a huuuuge advantage, esp when ranking between students can be a difference of just 1 multiple choice test question.

 

[Cautionary Tail]

What's their rationale behind ranking the class if it supposedly doesn't matter?

 

[Minnerbelle]

What's their rationale behind ranking the class if it supposedly doesn't matter?

Because internships/residencies/scholarships ask for some measure of competency.

I think they were on the right track in noticing that it sucks for someone with a 79.4% to get a C+ (2.66) while someone with a 79.5% a B- (3.00)... and that they preferred students not have to worry about being categorized that way. I think they were more annoyed with all the complainers who tried to haggle their grades or got too stressed out in these "almost in the next tier" situations, but I digress. I just don't see how having class ranking as the sole measure of how well you're doing in school is an accurate depiction... Obviously if you're 140/140 or 1/140 you're doing really poorly or really well. But for those within the 20 - 120 range, it doesn't say much.

Edit: I guess they didn't say exactly that "it didn't matter." just that someone in the bottom quartile of the class is just as likely to land an internship/residency as someone in the top quartile. That apparently, internship/residency placement didn't correlate with class ranking. Meaning, there are a lot of other important factors.

 

[sumstorm]

Like saying you're a 3.0 student sounds totally decent. It's like, yeah, vet school can be hard and 3.0 is still a very good grade. But reporting you're 100/140 makes you sound kind of bad.

I do hear what your saying.

If it makes you feel better, though, a 3.0 here (B average) puts you in the lowest quarter of the rankings here (while 100/140 puts you around the 30% mark). We are constantly told if we want internships/residences, 3.5 or above, might get away with a 3.2, since I haven't gone through match, no idea if that is true or not. But I have heard folks here complain about the difficulty of evaluating pass/fail students for internships/residencies.

I guess I am not a fan of grades in general. I don't feel that they show what we (as students and as reviewers) want them to. my grades reflect heavily on whether a class uses multiple choice or true false tests. I have high 90's in all short answer, long answer, etc (except anatomy) and mid 70's to low 80's on all multiple choice (which is the opposit of our class trend). I don't know if my dyslexia comes into play on multiple choice, or the obnoxious style of questions that are presented just stresses me out, but I have developed test anxiety on MC exams.

 

[StartingoverVet]

And it doesn't help that we have a bunch of exams that are take-home but CLOSED BOOK. I think that's really unfair to honest students whose grades suffer at the expense of dishonest students who can easily get a huuuuge advantage, esp when ranking between students can be a difference of just 1 multiple choice test question.

Can't decide if that is hilarious or ridiculous.

It's like putting drugs in front of a user and saying "I know you won't use these because you are on an honor system." I wonder why rehab places don't use that system?

 

[hunterjumper12]

I do hear what your saying.

If it makes you feel better, though, a 3.0 here (B average) puts you in the lowest quarter of the rankings here (while 100/140 puts you around the 30% mark). We are constantly told if we want internships/residences, 3.5 or above, might get away with a 3.2, since I haven't gone through match, no idea if that is true or not. But I have heard folks here complain about the difficulty of evaluating pass/fail students for internships/residencies.

I guess I am not a fan of grades in general. I don't feel that they show what we (as students and as reviewers) want them to. my grades reflect heavily on whether a class uses multiple choice or true false tests. I have high 90's in all short answer, long answer, etc (except anatomy) and mid 70's to low 80's on all multiple choice (which is the opposit of our class trend). I don't know if my dyslexia comes into play on multiple choice, or the obnoxious style of questions that are presented just stresses me out, but I have developed test anxiety on MC exams.

I'm the same way. I do awesome on short answer, essay, etc. type tests (high 90s) and do not so hot on multiple choice tests (mid 70s to low 80s). I think this is partly due to the fact that I tend to overthink multiple choice questions. Also, I HATE multiple choice that is A, B, A and B, or neither. Unfortunately, I have been told I should get used to this, as it is the multiple choice format used a lot at NCSU 🙄

 

[racccjlm]

This. If I can't get an A, well maybe I can at least push for a B+. I also think it's not necessarily fair to the people who say, just barely missed an A to be lumped in with the people who just barely scraped into the B category. I think without the +/-, there's too much gap between categories.

I completely and totally 100% agree with this. In certain classes with us, if you miss an A by ONE point, you get a B in the class - BS in my opinion - especially when one point is so subjective. Obviously it shouldn't really matter - you're in vet school, etc. etc. - but for those that want to go on and do an internship/residency, GPA and class rank certainly do have some effect - just how much is anyone's guess.

 

[Birdo88]

I graduated from a University that ONLY had pluses but no minuses. I really hate it because on the VMCAS and when vet schools were calculating my GPAs, they would not take this into account, and weigh my B+ grades as only 3.3, when they really counted as a 3.5. I didn't think this was fair at all since I did not have the opportunity to get minus grades, and I feel like I shouldn't be penalized for my school's grading system.

 

[Dsmoody23]

It seems like using a percentage would eliminate a lot of the ambiguity of grading.

I can't see any situation where an 'A' or 'B' on a transcript is somehow more informative than '94.3/100' or '84.3/100.'

Obviously we've all suffered and benefited from being lumped into a higher or lower bracket, but I never understood why schools don't just give a complete, specific grade.

 

[LetItSnow]

It seems like using a percentage would eliminate a lot of the ambiguity of grading.

I can't see any situation where an 'A' or 'B' on a transcript is somehow more informative than '94.3/100' or '84.3/100.'

Probably because in the end, you still have to factor in the prof and difficulty of the class, right?

I mean, I got 106% in first-sem physics and 103% in second-sem physics. Am I a brilliant physics student? No flippin' way. 🙂 I just happen to have a prof that spelled out exactly what would be on the tests (and I listened), and she included ridiculous amounts of extra credit.

So you'd still be in the same boat even though we're talking percentages now: How would you compare my 106% to your (for example) 92%? It's entirely possible your 92% represents far more work and competency.

So in the end, they're both just as informative (or not, depending on your perspective).

Or am I completely missing your point?

 

[Dsmoody23]

Probably because in the end, you still have to factor in the prof and difficulty of the class, right?

I mean, I got 106% in first-sem physics and 103% in second-sem physics. Am I a brilliant physics student? No flippin' way. 🙂 I just happen to have a prof that spelled out exactly what would be on the tests (and I listened), and she included ridiculous amounts of extra credit.

So you'd still be in the same boat even though we're talking percentages now: How would you compare my 106% to your (for example) 92%? It's entirely possible your 92% represents far more work and competency.

So in the end, they're both just as informative (or not, depending on your perspective).

Or am I completely missing your point?

You jumped up a level.

I was mostly just wondering why they opt for less specificity.

If the grade can be calculated to an actual numerical value, what's the benefit of using a letter system?

(Also, I think 92% was my actual physics grade. Hackz. )

 

[LetItSnow]

If the grade can be calculated to an actual numerical value, what's the benefit of using a letter system?

It would make things easier not to. Especially since the first thing that happens is it all gets converted back to a number. Seems ... silly.

(Also, I think 92% was my actual physics grade. Hackz. )

... and probably really does demonstrate more competence than my 100+%. I thought that was one of the most ridiculous A's I ever received.

 

[Coquette22]

If the grade can be calculated to an actual numerical value, what's the benefit of using a letter system?

This has always been my feeling. I grew up with percentages, and thinking in terms of letter grades was weird when I got to university. Everything I do for all my courses gets a numerical value. And then at the end of the semester, they convert it into a letter grade. It always seemed unnecessary to me. I think the reason they do it is probably because of being consistent in the university. It's hard to grade humanities courses numerically. It's easy to tell an A paper from a B paper, but it's harder to tell a 91% essay from an 89% essay.