How many hours of clinicals, volunteering, and research are a competitive amount? Also how should I keep track/log my hours?

[medschooldream9098]

In a previous post I mentioned that my GPA isn't exactly ideal. I can end off my bachelors degree with a decent GPA somewhere around sGPA 3.8ish and cGPA 3.6ish. This is obviously not that competitive of a GPA, not too bad either but when they see my transcript and see how awful I did the past two years, it will probably cause issue. I know there is a chance I will not get in so no need to shout it out, my back up plan is nursing, I'm doing a double major. and yes my grades are doing fine with the double major lol. Anyway, my best shot of med school is having a really competitive amount of hours in research, volunteering, and clinical hours. Also a high MCAT score. I just wanted to know what would be considered as a competitive amount of hours? Not just the average amount. Also how should I be keeping track of my hours? Do I write it a "4 hours a week for 6 months" type of deal? I have med students in my family but I can't ask them for help so I'm turning to you guys. Sorry.

As of now, I'm doing volunteer work with the international rescue committee, about 10-12 hours a week. Will be with them for about 6 months, maybe more.
I'm also going to start shadowing a plastic surgeon and internist soon. I've been in contact with both doctors. Will begin working as a CNA within the next few weeks as well, but I will have to work in a nursing home before I can apply to the hospital... Will the nursing home still be okay for clinical hours in the mean time?
If I'm going about anything wrong please tell me. Sorry to bother

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[RTC19]

For organizations that don't keep track of my hours for me, I have Google Sheets for each organization and log my hours on there each time I volunteer. I have a columns on each sheet for date, hours and any notes.

The nursing home CNA position is absolutely fine for clinical hours!

This forum is pretty active and we have a few admissions committee members running around, so I am sure someone will be here to help you with your other questions I didn't know the answers to shortly.

And you are absolutely never a bother. This is what SDN is here for!

 

[medschooldream9098]

For organizations that don't keep track of my hours for me, I have Google Sheets for each organization and log my hours on there each time I volunteer. I have a columns on each sheet for date, hours and any notes.

The nursing home CNA position is absolutely fine for clinical hours!

This forum is pretty active and we have a few admissions committee members running around, so I am sure someone will be here to help you with your other questions I didn't know the answers to shortly.

And you are absolutely never a bother. This is what SDN is here for!

Thank you for responding! I appreciate it! I’ll check out google sheets

 

[lodo.owl]

In a previous post I mentioned that my GPA isn't exactly ideal. I can end off my bachelors degree with a decent GPA somewhere around sGPA 3.8ish and cGPA 3.6ish. This is obviously not that competitive of a GPA, not too bad either but when they see my transcript and see how awful I did the past two years, it will probably cause issue. I know there is a chance I will not get in so no need to shout it out, my back up plan is nursing, I'm doing a double major. and yes my grades are doing fine with the double major lol. Anyway, my best shot of med school is having a really competitive amount of hours in research, volunteering, and clinical hours. Also a high MCAT score. I just wanted to know what would be considered as a competitive amount of hours? Not just the average amount. Also how should I be keeping track of my hours? Do I write it a "4 hours a week for 6 months" type of deal? I have med students in my family but I can't ask them for help so I'm turning to you guys. Sorry.

As of now, I'm doing volunteer work with the international rescue committee, about 10-12 hours a week. Will be with them for about 6 months, maybe more.
I'm also going to start shadowing a plastic surgeon and internist soon. I've been in contact with both doctors. Will begin working as a CNA within the next few weeks as well, but I will have to work in a nursing home before I can apply to the hospital... Will the nursing home still be okay for clinical hours in the mean time?
If I'm going about anything wrong please tell me. Sorry to bother

Okay to start off, your GPA isn't the highest but is also isn't god awful. 3.6 isn't detrimental, but you should definitely bust your ass on the MCAT (as I'm sure you already are or are planning to). Curious to what you mean "how awful I did the past two years"; if you're currently a sophomore (which I'm assuming as you haven't taken the MCAT and have time for the ECs you're talking about), then IMO you haven't done "awful" over the past two years and I doubt it will be brought up in interviews unless your grades are weird like A, A, A, D, C, A or something.

Why is your backup plan nursing instead of DO? Honestly your GPA is enough for instate so this also confuses me.

Yes and yes. MCAT more than ECs tbh. You could have 3000hrs in a lab but if your MCAT is 500 it doesn't matter. IMO good hours for ECs are as follows:
Research: 500+
Shadowing: 200+ 40+
Volunteering: 150+
Clinical: 500+
Ultimately, quality over quantity, and again this is my personal, non-adcom opinion. Keep in mind merely box checking does not make you competitive, showing longevity is more important here. If you only volunteer for 6 months and then never volunteer again, that is a red flag.

Too keep track of hours, keep a google doc that summarizes your ECs and/or google sheet where you log your hours. On the application, you are responsible for doing accurate math to give a finalized hour amount (ie 600 hours Fall 2017-Spring 2020).

Also I have heard that CNA/EMT experience is usually accepted as clinical experience, although the argument has been made that clinical experience meets two criteria:
A) You are working under a physician and are with a physician for a majority of the experience.
B) You are close enough to smell the patient.
Take that as you will, I think regardless both things you've mentioned are great experience and I would just not skimp out on heavy physician shadowing.

Hope that helps! x

 

[gyngyn]

40 to 50 shadowing hours are more than enough (as long as most of them are primary care).
Try to find peds, FM or more general IM (instead of ER, plastics, derm, ortho... or OR time).

 

[lodo.owl]

gyngyn is right, I definitely overshot the shadowing amount.

40 to 50 shadowing hours are more than enough (as long as most of them are primary care).
Try to find peds, FM or more general IM (instead of ER, plastics, derm, ortho... or OR time).

@gyngyn, always wondered why PCP over ER for shadowing?

 

[gyngyn]

gyngyn, always wondered why PCP over ER for shadowing?

If a candidate knows what it means to develop relationships over time, they have something to talk about in interviews (in addition to understanding the role of physicians in society).
ER and OR experiences are, to a great extent, disconnected from the development of relationships. That is not to say that they are valueless. But all you really say as an observer is: "this rolled in and it seemed really neat."

 

[907914]

40 to 50 shadowing hours are more than enough (as long as most of them are primary care).
Try to find peds, FM or more general IM (instead of ER, plastics, derm, ortho... or OR time).

Does it look weird for students to have a disproportionate amount of shadowing in one specialty if they also have PC shadowing? (I have 80 in urology, 52 in PC and 8 in pathology)

 

[gyngyn]

Does it look weird for students to have a disproportionate amount of shadowing in one specialty if they also have PC shadowing? (I have 80 in urology, 52 in PC and 8 in pathology)

As long as there is a sufficient amount in PC, your additional choices are your own.

 

[907914]

As long as there is a sufficient amount in PC, your additional choices are your own.

Stupid question: I shadowed 16 hours in an IM residency and bounced around between shadowing residents, med students and the attending...Would it be abnormal for me not to know the names of the physicians I shadowed? My contact would be the program education coordinator.

 

[gyngyn]

Stupid question: I shadowed 16 hours in an IM residency and bounced around between shadowing residents, med students and the attending...Would it be abnormal for me not to know the names of the physicians I shadowed? My contact would be the program education coordinator.

It would be perfectly fine.

 

[965978]

40 to 50 shadowing hours are more than enough (as long as most of them are primary care).
Try to find peds, FM or more general IM (instead of ER, plastics, derm, ortho... or OR time).

Geriatrics?

 

[gyngyn]

Geriatrics?

Excellent.

 

[medschooldream9098]

Okay to start off, your GPA isn't the highest but is also isn't god awful. 3.6 isn't detrimental, but you should definitely bust your ass on the MCAT (as I'm sure you already are or are planning to). Curious to what you mean "how awful I did the past two years"; if you're currently a sophomore (which I'm assuming as you haven't taken the MCAT and have time for the ECs you're talking about), then IMO you haven't done "awful" over the past two years and I doubt it will be brought up in interviews unless your grades are weird like A, A, A, D, C, A or something.

Why is your backup plan nursing instead of DO? Honestly your GPA is enough for instate so this also confuses me.

Yes and yes. MCAT more than ECs tbh. You could have 3000hrs in a lab but if your MCAT is 500 it doesn't matter. IMO good hours for ECs are as follows:
Research: 500+
Shadowing: 200+ 40+
Volunteering: 150+
Clinical: 500+
Ultimately, quality over quantity, and again this is my personal, non-adcom opinion. Keep in mind merely box checking does not make you competitive, showing longevity is more important here. If you only volunteer for 6 months and then never volunteer again, that is a red flag.

Too keep track of hours, keep a google doc that summarizes your ECs and/or google sheet where you log your hours. On the application, you are responsible for doing accurate math to give a finalized hour amount (ie 600 hours Fall 2017-Spring 2020).

Also I have heard that CNA/EMT experience is usually accepted as clinical experience, although the argument has been made that clinical experience meets two criteria:
A) You are working under a physician and are with a physician for a majority of the experience.
B) You are close enough to smell the patient.
Take that as you will, I think regardless both things you've mentioned are great experience and I would just not skimp out on heavy physician shadowing.

Hope that helps! x

So by awful I mean I have 3 F’s on my record (the school is working with me to turn them to W’s) and some C’s and D’s. This was all a result of some awful things going on that I’m going to put in my personal statement so they know I wasn’t just messing around. But since then I’ve had an upward trend and have kept straight A’s and after working with an advisor to calculate what my GPA would be, that was the GPA it came out to. That’s why I’m needing a back up plan, I’m worried when they see the spotty past vs me being against a student that kept it together their whole college career, I mean... i feel like I wouldn’t even be competition... even though my GPA will be decent, my spotty record is there for them to see. I’ve been told by many people though that the upward trend is extremely important and gives me a chance.

I‘ve heard that DO has an extremely difficult time getting into the residencies they want to and usually end up in a specialty they don’t want. (Family practitioner is what I’ve heard the most). Is that wrong? Sorry, I just don’t know much about DO, I usually here bad things...

My plan is to continue to volunteer after these 6m are up but I was thinking of volunteering in hospitals after this? Would that be a bad idea because it would look like I’m bouncing around? I would want to stay volunteering at the hospital as long as I can. Only about 4h a week if possible.
Yeah I’m planning to start studying for the MCAT from now. It’s extremely early but I want to make sure everything I’m currently learning in my premed classes stays fresh consistently so that I don’t have to cram or take a year off, I just feel like I’ve wasted so much time already

Thank you for answering with so much detail by the way!!! I appreciate it

 

[medschooldream9098]

40 to 50 shadowing hours are more than enough (as long as most of them are primary care).
Try to find peds, FM or more general IM (instead of ER, plastics, derm, ortho... or OR time).

Is it okay to maybe shadow 40h with the IM physician and maybe 20 with the peds plastic surgeon? Or should I not even bother with the surgeon? Sorry to bother

 

[lodo.owl]

So by awful I mean I have 3 F’s on my record (the school is working with me to turn them to W’s) and some C’s and D’s. This was all a result of some awful things going on that I’m going to put in my personal statement so they know I wasn’t just messing around. But since then I’ve had an upward trend and have kept straight A’s and after working with an advisor to calculate what my GPA would be, that was the GPA it came out to. That’s why I’m needing a back up plan, I’m worried when they see the spotty past vs me being against a student that kept it together their whole college career, I mean... i feel like I wouldn’t even be competition... even though my GPA will be decent, my spotty record is there for them to see. I’ve been told by many people though that the upward trend is extremely important and gives me a chance.

I‘ve heard that DO has an extremely difficult time getting into the residencies they want to and usually end up in a specialty they don’t want. (Family practitioner is what I’ve heard the most). Is that wrong? Sorry, I just don’t know much about DO, I usually here bad things...

My plan is to continue to volunteer after these 6m are up but I was thinking of volunteering in hospitals after this? Would that be a bad idea because it would look like I’m bouncing around? I would want to stay volunteering at the hospital as long as I can. Only about 4h a week if possible.
Yeah I’m planning to start studying for the MCAT from now. It’s extremely early but I want to make sure everything I’m currently learning in my premed classes stays fresh consistently so that I don’t have to cram or take a year off, I just feel like I’ve wasted so much time already

Thank you for answering with so much detail by the way!!! I appreciate it

I have 4 W's, and 3 AW's (administrative withdraws) due to my long term boyfriend's suicide last year + other personal tragedies related to that event. Since recovering from that, I've gotten straight A's. My advice to you is this: get your low grades withdrawn if you can (which sounds like you're already in the process of) and anything w/ a C or below retake if possible. If you can't, it's not the end of the world. If asked about why you have the W's/low grades in interviews, just be honest and straightforward about what happened. What you've heard is correct, an upward trend is extremely valuable and knocking the rest of your years out of the park + a stellar MCAT will be critical but will also speak volumes to your academic ability AND your ability to overcome failure/personal struggles.

IMO, don't address your W's in your personal statement unless it relates to why you're pursuing medicine. You will likely have opportunities to talk about it later and the personal statement is already short enough as it is.

You are a human and human things happen. Being the comeback kid is hard but possible, don't dismiss yourself.

I feel like I don't have enough knowledge to speak about that with any authority haha, but I have heard similar rumors. DO has come a long way over the past decade though, so don't dismiss it as an option. I would rather be a DO than a nurse, but my career trajectory is physician or bust so.

Doesn't matter where you volunteer after those six months, as long as you don't stop volunteering period after a "good" amount of hours.

Unnecessary to start studying for your MCAT now, focus more on your ECs and raising your GPA because 5-6 months before the MCAT you will be stretched extremely thin. The pre-req classes you're taking is literally the content that the MCAT will be over, so just learn them well in your graded classes for now and review them/prep for the exam when the time comes.

To catch up w/ my W's, I'm completing my undergraduate in 5 years instead of 4. Cramming and overloading yourself will not end well, consider adding an additional year to your degree. Also consider summer classes as I go to school year round and this allows for a great pace throughout my degree.

Of course! If you have any other questions I'm continuing to watch this thread.

 

[Goro]

In a previous post I mentioned that my GPA isn't exactly ideal. I can end off my bachelors degree with a decent GPA somewhere around sGPA 3.8ish and cGPA 3.6ish. This is obviously not that competitive of a GPA, not too bad either but when they see my transcript and see how awful I did the past two years, it will probably cause issue. I know there is a chance I will not get in so no need to shout it out, my back up plan is nursing, I'm doing a double major. and yes my grades are doing fine with the double major lol. Anyway, my best shot of med school is having a really competitive amount of hours in research, volunteering, and clinical hours. Also a high MCAT score. I just wanted to know what would be considered as a competitive amount of hours? Not just the average amount. Also how should I be keeping track of my hours? Do I write it a "4 hours a week for 6 months" type of deal? I have med students in my family but I can't ask them for help so I'm turning to you guys. Sorry.

As of now, I'm doing volunteer work with the international rescue committee, about 10-12 hours a week. Will be with them for about 6 months, maybe more.
I'm also going to start shadowing a plastic surgeon and internist soon. I've been in contact with both doctors. Will begin working as a CNA within the next few weeks as well, but I will have to work in a nursing home before I can apply to the hospital... Will the nursing home still be okay for clinical hours in the mean time?
If I'm going about anything wrong please tell me. Sorry to bother

From the wise LizzyM:
If you have more than 300 hours of non-clinical volunteering by the time you apply you will be in the top 25% of applicants with regard to community service (based on what I see). The tip top of the pyramid are those who do a full-time volunteerism during a gap year or two (Peace Corps, City Year, etc).

Clinical... top 25% of the pool have employment in a clinical setting: EMT, scribe, patient care technician (aide). The hours don't matter... it is going to be hundreds of hours if you even work full-time for a few weeks.

The proportion of top applicants who have a publication or a thesis is relatively low -- maybe <20% if you include undergrad thesis. Publications? Less than 5% have anything in a reputable peer reviewed journal.

Most applicants have neither a thesis or a publication after 2 years of lab work during undergrad.

To stand out in the top tier, seriously, you need to be in the top 2% in terms of MCAT and have an excellent GPA. Beyond that, if you have the minimum in all areas and stand out in one or two areas (research, clinical, service, leadership, life experience) you'll be fine.

 

[medschooldream9098]

From the wise LizzyM:
If you have more than 300 hours of non-clinical volunteering by the time you apply you will be in the top 25% of applicants with regard to community service (based on what I see). The tip top of the pyramid are those who do a full-time volunteerism during a gap year or two (Peace Corps, City Year, etc).

Clinical... top 25% of the pool have employment in a clinical setting: EMT, scribe, patient care technician (aide). The hours don't matter... it is going to be hundreds of hours if you even work full-time for a few weeks.

The proportion of top applicants who have a publication or a thesis is relatively low -- maybe <20% if you include undergrad thesis. Publications? Less than 5% have anything in a reputable peer reviewed journal.

Most applicants have neither a thesis or a publication after 2 years of lab work during undergrad.

To stand out in the top tier, seriously, you need to be in the top 2% in terms of MCAT and have an excellent GPA. Beyond that, if you have the minimum in all areas and stand out in one or two areas (research, clinical, service, leadership, life experience) you'll be fine.

My GPA won’t be amazing- maybe cGPA 3.5-3.6ish and sGPA 3.7-3.8ish but if I Am working in a clinical setting, 300+ non clinical volunteering, 300+ clinical volunteering, 300+ research, and a high MCAT score, do you think I’d have a decent chance?

 

[candbgirl]

You need to research DO programs and schools. If you would be content being a nurse, seriously think about doing it now before you invest years and hundreds of thousands of dollars on med school. Your GPAs are very competitive for DO schools.

 

[medschooldream9098]

You need to research DO programs and schools. If you would be content being a nurse, seriously think about doing it now before you invest years and hundreds of thousands of dollars on med school. Your GPAs are very competitive for DO schools.

I would prefer to be a physician. I'm just being realistic about the fact that I may not get in, in which case I can fall back on nursing and become a nurse practitioner. I've heard negative things about DO programs, how it's difficult for them to get residencies in what they want and most of the time don't get into the residency they want. Also, that a lot of them become general practitioners because of the residency problem. In which case, I would prefer to become a Nurse Practitioner because I could easily go into something other than family practice with half (or even less than) the debt and less than half the time. Basically my point is, with that my main concern would be if I just spent all that time and money to go into a specialty I wouldn't be necessarily enjoying. That's just my opinion though....

 

[965978]

From the wise LizzyM:

Clinical... top 25% of the pool have employment in a clinical setting: EMT, scribe, patient care technician (aide). The hours don't matter... it is going to be hundreds of hours if you even work full-time for a few weeks.

This doesn’t make sense because @LizzyM said she only sees the top 5% of the applicant pool.

 

[gyngyn]

Is it okay to maybe shadow 40h with the IM physician and maybe 20 with the peds plastic surgeon? Or should I not even bother with the surgeon? Sorry to bother

As long as you have the 40 hours of PC, they rest is up to you. Don't do plastics shadowing for us, though!

 

[Goro]

This doesn’t make sense because @LizzyM said she only sees the top 5% of the applicant pool.

Let's see what the Divine Miss M has to say!

 

[LizzyM]

From the wise LizzyM:
If you have more than 300 hours of non-clinical volunteering by the time you apply you will be in the top 25% of applicants with regard to community service (based on what I see). The tip top of the pyramid are those who do a full-time volunteerism during a gap year or two (Peace Corps, City Year, etc).

Clinical... top 25% of the pool have employment in a clinical setting: EMT, scribe, patient care technician (aide). The hours don't matter... it is going to be hundreds of hours if you even work full-time for a few weeks.

The proportion of top applicants who have a publication or a thesis is relatively low -- maybe <20% if you include undergrad thesis. Publications? Less than 5% have anything in a reputable peer reviewed journal.

Most applicants have neither a thesis or a publication after 2 years of lab work during undergrad.

To stand out in the top tier, seriously, you need to be in the top 2% in terms of MCAT and have an excellent GPA. Beyond that, if you have the minimum in all areas and stand out in one or two areas (research, clinical, service, leadership, life experience) you'll be fine.

to be clear, I see the top 2% of the pool academically and then within that top 2%, the subsets that have the exceptional ECs are what I've spelled out. Of course, many of the folks who are not in the top 2% academically have those ECs too.

 

[965978]

to be clear, I see the top 2% of the pool academically and then within that top 2%, the subsets that have the exceptional ECs are what I've spelled out. Of course, many of the folks who are not in the top 2% academically have those ECs too.

So what’s you’re saying is that that academic strength isn’t necessarily correlated with extracurricular strength?

I personally feel like 25% of all applicants having more than 300 non-clinical volunteer hours is a very high estimate, especially since so many people feel the need to struggle just to get 100.

 

[TheDappGoesWild]

to be clear, I see the top 2% of the pool academically and then within that top 2%, the subsets that have the exceptional ECs are what I've spelled out. Of course, many of the folks who are not in the top 2% academically have those ECs too.

When you say “stand out in one of those areas”, would meeting your top 25% criteria be considered “standing out”?

And also what do you mean when you say “minimum”. Can you give the definition of minimum in the other categories in regards to T20s?

 

[965978]

You have a very warped picture of what is difficult. If an applicant cant over the course of 3 years and 3 summers, pick up 150 hours of each clinical and non clinical, 4 hours every other week during just school terms would be about 60 hours per year for a total of 180. A summer as a volunteer in something gets those hours. Simply the ability to find time, to juggle school, work, and volunteering already tells me something about the applicant.

150 hours each for both clinical and non is a solid candidate
300 each is common
450 hours each is uncommon but not rare
And seeing a few people each cycle at each school with 600-1000+ is typical

I was speaking anecdotally. Most people I know are critically low on volunteering.

 

[LizzyM]

So what’s you’re saying is that that academic strength isn’t necessarily correlated with extracurricular strength?

I personally feel like 25% of all applicants having more than 300 non-clinical volunteer hours is a very high estimate, especially since so many people feel the need to struggle just to get 100.

That is correct. There are 4.0/520s that got nothing else. Maybe robotics club. 50 hours of hospital volunteering, 5 hours participating in a walk-a-thon for charity (non-clinical volunteering). Maybe a semester of research for credit with a plan to do a senior year thesis. You can see that such an applicant would not be at the top of the list at a top 20.

 

[965978]

That is correct. There are 4.0/520s that got nothing else. Maybe robotics club. 50 hours of hospital volunteering, 5 hours participating in a walk-a-thon for charity (non-clinical volunteering). Maybe a semester of research for credit with a plan to do a senior year thesis. You can see that such an applicant would not be at the top of the list at a top 20.

Hmmmmm.... that’s very nice to know!