Is anyone else scared about the future of dentistry?

[753698]

For some reason I've been reading a ton of articles on the rise of DSO's and the group model, and it makes dentistry seem like a less desirable profession the more I read about it. People like Marc Cooper make it seem like every dentist in the future is going to be a corporate slave taking orders from some pretend CEO who barely scraped by with a GED and now somehow makes millions eating cake while dentists under him are working their asses off to make ends meet.

The entire reason I'm pursuing dentistry is because of the lifestlye/freedom/autonomy/entrepreneurial opportunities etc. Plus I love biology and healthcare in general. I'm not really built for the corporate life, unless I'm the CEO making millions. If I end up working for a corporation in the future, then there is literally no difference between dentistry or finance because either way I'll be a corporate slave. At that point I might as well just apply to McDonalds.

On a side note, I don't understand how a dentist like Marc Cooper can support a shift towards corporations so much, it's like he absolutely loathes solo practitioners. Not to mention he keeps talking up entrepreneurship in the future, but he doesn't realize that entrepreneurship is in owning your own practice not working for a corporation! He is literally promoting the thing that will end dental entrepreneurship. He even advocated for small groups to sell themselves to bigger DSO corporations. How does this guy even get into dental school?

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[aj30]

There’s no way to know the future but the indications are not positive. The profession does seem to be headed in the wrong direction.

 

[whosnisarg]

I've been having the same fears as the OP lately...
Anyway to combat this negative direction?

 

[2TH MVR]

Again, amazed to see anyone surprised by this corporate atmosphere. Especially the younger generation. Everything about the present and future seems to be about corporations. Every time you order something on Amazon as opposed to going to a mom and pop store .... you are promoting corporations. How about Invisalign and direct smile club? Corporations. Last time I checked .... social media is corporate. People demand lower drug prices. Answer: corporations. Mobile devices: corp. You want something? Go online which is ....... corporate. How about investments? Stocks? Retirement portfolios? Pretty sure all of those are ... CORPORATE. EVERYTHING is corporate owned and the immediate past and current generation has fueled this.

Not sure of the statistics, but I would believe that over 90% of working people work for ...... corporations. Corps provide Hx insurance, paid days off, vacation time, sick days, continuing ed, etc.etc that most employees just take for granted. Wait till YOU have to PAY for all of this for your employees. Not fun.

I'm not a good person to ask about corporate dentistry. I enjoyed private practice for 26 years. The last 10 years .... not so much. I owe dentistry a lot for my past and present lifestyle. But running a small mom and pop (private practice) in this environment is difficult. Especially in the urban, over-saturated areas. Mom and pops will obviously do better in the less popular, smaller communities. Hint. Hint.

Don't hate the corporations. They are just providing the current generation with what they want.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

I totally agree with @2TH MVR corporations are just the 'new' and possibly of future. Yes, solo practitioners are becoming less and less prominent but is there really much you can do? People want dentistry to be cheaper because insurances don't cover many of the costs involved and people can't afford the costs. Now, if you operate in a 'mom and pop' style business then you will notice that it will be very difficult to help people while covering your own personal costs. As said above you will have to move outside of the cities and go to suburban or rural areas to run successful solo practices. If that is something you are willing to do then you will be fine. However, if you want to practice in the cities, sooner or later you will either be a) apart of a corporation or b) struggling to meet ends meet.

To be honest, though, none of this really matters as of yet. Yes, yes you want to go into a profession with the glitz and the glammer of earning a paycheck/helping others. But, there's still a lot of room for change and trends could change. The only way to combat it is once you are in dental school is to get involved in organizations like ASDA, or other political groups that affect the way dentistry is going to be practiced. For now, stay positive, really understand that dentistry could go down a million pathways, get through dental school, and then and ONLY THEN focus on this.

 

[aj30]

I've been having the same fears as the OP lately...
Anyway to combat this negative direction?

Just make sure going into dentistry is worth it to you even if it develops into what it looks like it will.

 

[aj30]

Again, amazed to see anyone surprised by this corporate atmosphere. Especially the younger generation. Everything about the present and future seems to be about corporations. Every time you order something on Amazon as opposed to going to a mom and pop store .... you are promoting corporations. How about Invisalign and direct smile club? Corporations. Last time I checked .... social media is corporate. People demand lower drug prices. Answer: corporations. Mobile devices: corp. You want something? Go online which is ....... corporate. How about investments? Stocks? Retirement portfolios? Pretty sure all of those are ... CORPORATE. EVERYTHING is corporate owned and the immediate past and current generation has fueled this.

Not sure of the statistics, but I would believe that over 90% of working people work for ...... corporations. Corps provide Hx insurance, paid days off, vacation time, sick days, continuing ed, etc.etc that most employees just take for granted. Wait till YOU have to PAY for all of this for your employees. Not fun.

I'm not a good person to ask about corporate dentistry. I enjoyed private practice for 26 years. The last 10 years .... not so much. I owe dentistry a lot for my past and present lifestyle. But running a small mom and pop (private practice) in this environment is difficult. Especially in the urban, over-saturated areas. Mom and pops will obviously do better in the less popular, smaller communities. Hint. Hint.

Don't hate the corporations. They are just providing the current generation with what they want.

I wouldn’t say it’s at all surprising. Clearly the economy in general has been trending in the corporate direction for as long as anyone can remember. But that doesn’t mean it’s good for dentists (or anyone else for that matter).

 

[luisfigo]

open your own practice, provide good service, and don't live in big cities, then you won't have to worry about corporate

 

[unc_trhl1040]

Agreed. Take your career in dentistry into your own hands and don’t give into corporate dentistry if that’s not what you want. It doesn’t happen by coincidence that dental careers continually rank among the best (if not the best) jobs from year to year among all categories and the future is promising for dentists.

https://www.usnews.com/info/blogs/p...18-01-10/us-news-announces-the-2018-best-jobs

 

[.-.]

I've heard these same predictions towards basically every applicable area of healthcare. While dentist offices are definitely becoming more corporation-centered in cities, I would say other areas like pharmacy will be hit much worse than we will.

 

[753698]

Again, amazed to see anyone surprised by this corporate atmosphere. Especially the younger generation. Everything about the present and future seems to be about corporations. Every time you order something on Amazon as opposed to going to a mom and pop store .... you are promoting corporations. How about Invisalign and direct smile club? Corporations. Last time I checked .... social media is corporate. People demand lower drug prices. Answer: corporations. Mobile devices: corp. You want something? Go online which is ....... corporate. How about investments? Stocks? Retirement portfolios? Pretty sure all of those are ... CORPORATE. EVERYTHING is corporate owned and the immediate past and current generation has fueled this.

Not sure of the statistics, but I would believe that over 90% of working people work for ...... corporations. Corps provide Hx insurance, paid days off, vacation time, sick days, continuing ed, etc.etc that most employees just take for granted. Wait till YOU have to PAY for all of this for your employees. Not fun.

I'm not a good person to ask about corporate dentistry. I enjoyed private practice for 26 years. The last 10 years .... not so much. I owe dentistry a lot for my past and present lifestyle. But running a small mom and pop (private practice) in this environment is difficult. Especially in the urban, over-saturated areas. Mom and pops will obviously do better in the less popular, smaller communities. Hint. Hint.

Don't hate the corporations. They are just providing the current generation with what they want.

I really respect your opinion since you are a dentist who has seen the shift from private practice to corporations. But do you really feel that it is good for the dentistry profession to be shifting this way. From what I have read, in this scenario, dentists completely lose the autonomy that so many people go into dentistry for. Not only that, but they are probably losing money too, since they are treating a lot more patients and earning lots of money for their corporation, but at the end of the day taking a lot smaller of that chunk home than if they worked for themselves. Not to mention there have been regular complaints about the quality of care coming from corporate offices, and what even is the point of dentistry if you just work for someone with absolutely no knowledge of patient care who just tells you a number you have to hit every day. Would you truly get fulfillment in life living that way?

I believe we as dentists can fight back against corporations...just stop working for them! Many dentists usually just work for corporations for a year or two till their contract ends and they find out how miserable it is. And that is fine, especially if you have to pay off loans. But if it truly isn't what you envisioned your career to be like, then I would say leave those corporations in the dust and do your own thing. If no dentists supported corporate dentistry, this might be a career we could save from corporations taking over! And if we just allow corporations to take over, how are we more valuable to these private equity firms(who only care about money) than robots, which will have the potential to replace us in the near future. The whole point of dentistry and the reason we can't be replaced by robots is the patient doctor relationship. If we worked in a corporate setting where numbers were our goal rather than relationships, then robots would be much more efficient than us anyway.

From your comment, you have been practicing for 35+ years it seems, so you might be near the end of your career. My comment might not apply to you because you won't have to see your job being taken over and you are completely helpless. Again, I respect your opinion since you are actually in the field of dentistry, but for aspiring dentists like me, the future doesn't seem promising at all.

 

[753698]

I totally agree with @2TH MVR corporations are just the 'new' and possibly of future. Yes, solo practitioners are becoming less and less prominent but is there really much you can do? People want dentistry to be cheaper because insurances don't cover many of the costs involved and people can't afford the costs. Now, if you operate in a 'mom and pop' style business then you will notice that it will be very difficult to help people while covering your own personal costs. As said above you will have to move outside of the cities and go to suburban or rural areas to run successful solo practices. If that is something you are willing to do then you will be fine. However, if you want to practice in the cities, sooner or later you will either be a) apart of a corporation or b) struggling to meet ends meet.

To be honest, though, none of this really matters as of yet. Yes, yes you want to go into a profession with the glitz and the glammer of earning a paycheck/helping others. But, there's still a lot of room for change and trends could change. The only way to combat it is once you are in dental school is to get involved in organizations like ASDA, or other political groups that affect the way dentistry is going to be practiced. For now, stay positive, really understand that dentistry could go down a million pathways, get through dental school, and then and ONLY THEN focus on this.

But that is the problem thenextcarnegie, if all of us aspiring dentists get through dental school and then start worrying about this, it will be too late! We would have already taken on 500k+ of debt only to find that the future of our career is gone. The uncertainty of our future is what has me worried. I can't realistically wait till after spending 4 years and 500k on dental school to then start worrying about the future of my profession. This wouldn't be such a big deal if it was just a career out of undergrad, but since all of us dental students have to put in such a commitment to the career, the uncertainty is really killing all of us. I'm sure I'm not the only dental student that's thinking about this. I've always wanted to be a dentist, and I can't really think of myself in any other career. But you must understand how frightening it is to see your future basically ruined before your eyes.

I mean I guess I could hope to sneak into dentistry quickly, build up a successful practice and save my money wisely, and then when corporations do truly take over in 15-20 years, sell off my practice and use the equity and money saved to get into another career which doesn't have such a bleak future.
But I'm a control freak, I like being able to choose my own destiny. Dentistry in the past offered that. You start your practice, and you can be as successful as you want to be depending on how much work and time you put into your practice. Now if you are working for a corporation, that interdependence is gone. I don't like the idea of working under anybody because that doesn't give me any control. That's why I didn't go into medicine, because I didn't really want to work for a hospital.
Another thing about giving too much power to corporations, is that even though they offer decent salaries now, they could easily start offering pennies to the dollar when they see there are a surplus of dentists and not enough corporate practices to support them. And with the # of students graduating from dental school, that seems inevitable. It will basically be a race to the bottom for dentists.

This might be way too extreme, but I don't want to be that dentist working 50 hours a week just to barely live above the poverty line (after loans) when corporations take complete control over my life and take away my autonomy.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

@Shak Muscles I totally understand your viewpoint and to a certain degree, I agree. It can be very disheartening to see your dreams fall right before your eyes. But you can't really predict what's going to happen in 5-15 years, you know? Just be aware that the degree, that you have put many hours and money into, might not be the same when you started to pursue it. Dentistry is not just private practice, there are many many different avenues you could take to still be able to make money, serve your community, be autonomous, and most importantly be happy! You just have to find your niche, the dental school won't teach it to you, but you on your own must find it. If this truly is your career then do your research and continue to do it until you find your place.

Corporations will take over as they have in medicine, but there might be a reverse trend back into private practice. I really can't sit here and tell you what is going to happen in a few years. Being a control freak is okay...it comes with having a type-a personality (I speak from experience) but sometimes you have to let it go and just focus on the now. I think the only thing we as dentists can do is be politically strong and active. Politically it is important for dentists to be involved so they can invoke the change that they want to see within the industry. If we band together and really want change to shift from corp to private once again then it will take a combined effort.

 

[753698]

I agree that it is important for us dentists (and future dentists in my case) to be active in the dental community and work together to do what's right for the industry.
But what I struggle with is resting easy and letting it all come to me. I don't want to be caught off guard in the future when reality hits me hard. I don't want to have a mid-life crisis when I realize the career I love and have gotten into is going into a cynical direction.
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This is an article I found describing exactly what I fear. Obviously this is a bit biased, but essentially what I absolutely can't bear more than anything is being manipulated and working like a horse while someone like Rick Workman is enjoying the sun next to his pool located on his 10 million dollar mansion which has a few million dollars worth of cars parked inside. Do you think Rick Workman even cares about the patients? LOL.

I really don't want dentistry to go in that direction. In fact, I'm actually scared it will go in that direction. Next thing you know, there will be a dental clinic in Wal Mart.

I'm not exactly sure what I can personally do to make a positive contribution as I'm only a student, but I'm hoping someone can shed some optimism on our future?

 

[2TH MVR]

Okay ...there's time between the AFC and NFC games to post this. I'm not pro-corporate at all. Bring a dentist and opening up your own practice is a dream that every dentist should aspire to.

I'm just being realistic. I practiced in a large Phoenix metropolitan area. Trust me when I tell you that it is over-saturated with dentists here. They're on EVERY corner. This saturation only materialized in the last 10 years. At one of my locations: on a busy intersection: there was ONE private dentist (next to my office) and 2 corporate offices. Both of these corp offices offered orthodontic treatment. These corp practices bought the general practices of the dentists that used to refer to me. Why did they sell? Their offices were in the decline. Kind of a domino affect. Obviously this affected my practice also.

What makes it worse here in Phx is that ANYONE (don't have to be a dentist) can own a corporate/business dentist office. We have tons of commercial dental practices and corp offices here.

Someone posted we should stop working for the corps. Honestly? Like I said earlier ... why don't you start shopping at private grocery stores (if any exist). You like coffee? Stop going to Starbucks. How about my favorite .... In and Out Burger. Etc. Etc. Etc. Won't happen. The corps are a business just like any other business and they saw a way to offer people dentistry at a profit.

Yes .... I am semi-retired and work part time for a Corp. So my situation is different than the pre-dents, new dentists. I actually enjoy the ease and less stress. But if I was just starting out ...... I would NOT be in a large, saturated city with two for-profit dental schools.

 

[753698]

Okay ...there's time between the AFC and NFC games to post this. I'm not pro-corporate at all. Bring a dentist and opening up your own practice is a dream that every dentist should aspire to.

I'm just being realistic. I practiced in a large Phoenix metropolitan area. Trust me when I tell you that it is over-saturated with dentists here. They're on EVERY corner. This saturation only materialized in the last 10 years. At one of my locations: on a busy intersection: there was ONE private dentist (next to my office) and 2 corporate offices. Both of these corp offices offered orthodontic treatment. These corp practices bought the general practices of the dentists that used to refer to me. Why did they sell? Their offices were in the decline. Kind of a domino affect. Obviously this affected my practice also.

What makes it worse here in Phx is that ANYONE (don't have to be a dentist) can own a corporate/business dentist office. We have tons of commercial dental practices and corp offices here.

Someone posted we should stop working for the corps. Honestly? Like I said earlier ... why don't you start shopping at private grocery stores (if any exist). You like coffee? Stop going to Starbucks. How about my favorite .... In and Out Burger. Etc. Etc. Etc. Won't happen. The corps are a business just like any other business and they saw a way to offer people dentistry at a profit.

Yes .... I am semi-retired and work part time for a Corp. So my situation is different than the pre-dents, new dentists. I actually enjoy the ease and less stress. But if I was just starting out ...... I would NOT be in a large, saturated city with two for-profit dental schools.

But the difference between your examples of Starbucks and the grocery stores is that Dentistry is not a commodity. So the same model doesn't apply.

I understand buying a bag of chips from Wal Mart, but that is not nearly the same thing as going to the dentist to get treated on. With chips, Lays are Lays no matter where you buy it from. With Dentistry, that is not the case. From what I've read, in corporate dentistry patients are just a number, a profit statement. It's all about profits, number crunching, etc. Maybe patients themselves don't realize that they are subjecting themselves for worse care at around 11% of a cheaper price, but I would think it is our duty to inform the general public.

And I'm not trying to go all old school or anything, but corporate dentistry is neither beneficial to the patient nor is it beneficial to the dentist. In fact, a group model in which dentists collaborate and pool resources is much better for the profession of dentistry because it doesn't have venture capitalists and corporate pressures in general influencing the work you do in the clinic.

As for your statement about the corporate offices buying out dentists, that's the exact thing I absolutely oppose. Why should hard working dentists be bullied out by these corporations that did almost nothing except pool their funds from rich people trying to make a quick buck out of dentistry? Are we just going to succumb to these rich folk who have no interest in the future of the profession, but rather of filling their already deep pockets with our hard earned money?

I'm sorry but I just cannot support that.

I would like to say I appreciate that you support the model for a dentist to own a practice, and I hope that the new generation of dentists will be bold enough to make a name for themselves in their community.

*I would like to add that I understand that not all corporations are like this, some are more genuine and sincere, but from what I've read it seems that many of the larger corporations are just corrupt man!

 

[2TH MVR]

I'm with you Shak ..... I'm just offering some friendly, albeit realistic banter.

But the difference between your examples of Starbucks and the grocery stores is that Dentistry is not a commodity. So the same model doesn't apply. Unfortunately ... it is becoming a commodity. I agree that it should be about providing a dental/health service and it was that way before the Corps, Insurance companies, Recession, increased competition, for profit private dental schools, etc. etc. "Hey doc .... how much for a set of braces? How much is a crown". Dentists giving out FREE cleanings and Whitening for new patients. The insurance company wants to make all dental and health procedures a commodity that can be measured and reimbursed. It's already happening now and especially in the hospitals where most Physicians are working for a CORPORATION.

I understand buying a bag of chips from Wal Mart, but that is not nearly the same thing as going to the dentist to get treated on. With chips, Lays are Lays no matter where you buy it from. With Dentistry, that is not the case. From what I've read, in corporate dentistry patients are just a number, a profit statement. It's all about profits, number crunching, etc. Maybe patients themselves don't realize that they are subjecting themselves for worse care at around 11% of a cheaper price, but I would think it is our duty to inform the general public. I would say that the high dental IQ patients realize that they will get better, personalized care from a well respected private dentist. But ..... all private dentists still need to run a profitable practice in order to get paid and pay all the practice bills. I will agree that patients going to a Corp office are not going to get 5 star service. Most go because it is convenient and the Corps finance their treatment.

And I'm not trying to go all old school or anything, but corporate dentistry is neither beneficial to the patient nor is it beneficial to the dentist. In fact, a group model in which dentists collaborate and pool resources is much better for the profession of dentistry because it doesn't have venture capitalists and corporate pressures in general influencing the work you do in the clinic. I agree. But your small group is essentially a small Corp. They will still be analyzing quarterly P&Ls, supply costs, 30-60-90 day delinquency accounts. Advertising costs. Insurance reimbursements. Labor costs. Worker's Comp ins costs. Annual increasing rent costs. Property taxes. Retirement and Profit Sharing costs. To be successful .... a small group still needs to be run as a small Corp ..... because it is.

As for your statement about the corporate offices buying out dentists, that's the exact thing I absolutely oppose. Why should hard working dentists be bullied out by these corporations that did almost nothing except pool their funds from rich people trying to make a quick buck out of dentistry? Are we just going to succumb to these rich folk who have no interest in the future of the profession, but rather of filling their already deep pockets with our hard earned money? Again ... I agree with you. But these dentists weren't bullied out. Some were retiring or slowing down. Most just wanted to sell to get out. Trust me. I wasn't happy when the private GPs I worked with for many years decided to "sell out" to the Corp. A double whammy for an office that depended on referrals and now .... more competition.

I'm sorry but I just cannot support that.

I would like to say I appreciate that you support the model for a dentist to own a practice, and I hope that the new generation of dentists will be bold enough to make a name for themselves in their community. Agreed

*I would like to add that I understand that not all corporations are like this, some are more genuine and sincere, but from what I've read it seems that many of the larger corporations are just corrupt man!

I've been at my present Corp employment for 8 months. I cannot speak to the general side. The treatment I provide for my ortho patients is no different than when I practiced in my two private offices. But I am a seasoned, hard-working, Type A, extroverted individual that likes to see many patients and I like to be rewarded for my hard work. I like to generate ortho starts. I like to practice efficiently. I like to practice fast. I like to finish patient's treatment in the allotted amount of prescribed time. I work hard. I get guaranteed salary and bonuses, paid medical and vision ins, IRA, free cont ed, etc. etc. . Corp is happy. I'm happy. Patients are happy.

If you are a rookie dentist just trying to find your way with no experience, no clinical speed .... the Corp job can be over-whelming to say the least. Their opinion is not going to be positive. A seasoned dentist is going to look at it differently. The dentists I work with are older with plenty of experience and seem to be very involved with their patient's treatment.

 

[deleted678432]

In the near future, I don’t foresee an evolutionary change in which humans no longer have teeth.. so no


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[753698]

I've been at my present Corp employment for 8 months. I cannot speak to the general side. The treatment I provide for my ortho patients is no different than when I practiced in my two private offices. But I am a seasoned, hard-working, Type A, extroverted individual that likes to see many patients and I like to be rewarded for my hard work. I like to generate ortho starts. I like to practice efficiently. I like to practice fast. I like to finish patient's treatment in the allotted amount of prescribed time. I work hard. I get guaranteed salary and bonuses, paid medical and vision ins, IRA, free cont ed, etc. etc. . Corp is happy. I'm happy. Patients are happy.

If you are a rookie dentist just trying to find your way with no experience, no clinical speed .... the Corp job can be over-whelming to say the least. Their opinion is not going to be positive. A seasoned dentist is going to look at it differently. The dentists I work with are older with plenty of experience and seem to be very involved with their patient's treatment.

Thank you for the well thought out response. I understand that dentistry is basically going the way of optometry, pharmacy, medicine etc. I guess I really am about 20-30 years too late to the party haha.

Either way, I don't really have any other professions I can fall back on. I guess I'm intrigued in finance, but then I would have to deal with corporations on a bigger scale and suck up to my boss on the daily, which I'm not gonna do!

I guess the last bit of hope for me is that there are still physicians that own private practices, even though the number is really small (around 15% I think) and they actually do very well for themselves, often better than their hospital counterparts. Plus I can always offer thing corporations will never be able to offer, and I guess I could form a niche dental practice in the future (maybe concierge dentistry or something). Regardless, even if I'm the last private practicing dentist left on the planet, I'm still never gonna give up my practice to a corporation. I would rather just get buried along with my practice.

*On a side note, if I were to give in, should I try to build up a small group practice myself and then eventually sell it to a corporation and keep an equity share in the practice, so a certain percentage of profits go into my pockets? In essence I could spend all my years gathering partnerships and building up a sizeable group practice and by the time I'm 50 I can just sell off the group to a corporation and then retire and invest that money and live off of my share of profits. Does it work like that or am I totally off base here?

 

[Likkriue]

The less debt the less worries.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

@Shak Muscles Would you ever consider franchising? I know it's sort of still corporate dentistry but you would get to manage your own practice. Just a thought.

 

[753698]

@Shak Muscles Would you ever consider franchising? I know it's sort of still corporate dentistry but you would get to manage your own practice. Just a thought.

I'm not really familiar with the term franchising, could you please explain it to me. I'm always open for new aspects of dentistry to look into, thanks for bringing this up.

 

[753698]

The less debt the less worries.

I honestly would have minimal debt when I graduate from dental school, but I'm still worried.

 

[kashyranz]

i feel like all we need (future pre-dents) is for the general public to be aware of how bad corporate dentistry can be. maybe a commercial with botched dental procedures showing how bad the quality of care can be from these corporate chains. someone should submit this idea to ADA so they can fund it to save the rest of us from the evils of corporate dentistry. unless a paradigm shift in public opinion occurs where people actually believe they are getting worse care from corps, our levels of wealth and autonomy will continue to dwindle in the years to come

 

[jttzz112]

I'm scared of the forecasted cost of dental school in the next decade. The Dean at the school i'm currently working at projects that dental school will cost 1mill by 2023. I feel bad for my little brothers.

1mil?!? Nooooooooo way. No one and I mean no one would be able to afford it because you wouldn't even be able to loan that much.

 

[Symphonies]

@dentists like 2thmvr, what do you think the smartest move for us students would be? I've tried minimizing potential debt by turning down oos undergrads at the opportunity cost of saving ~280k, but is there anything else that we could do?

 

[ucfknight7]

@dentists like 2thmvr, what do you think the smartest move for us students would be? I've tried minimizing potential debt by turning down oos undergrads at the opportunity cost of saving ~280k, but is there anything else that we could do?

Live frugally in school and pay back asap

 

[2TH MVR]

@dentists like 2thmvr, what do you think the smartest move for us students would be? I've tried minimizing potential debt by turning down oos undergrads at the opportunity cost of saving ~280k, but is there anything else that we could do?

Like another poster mentioned .... there will always be teeth and people will need good, caring young dentists to care for them. There will always be a market for the medium and high dental IQ patients that are looking for long-term, quality care for them and their family. Corporate, at this time, only appeals to a certain subset of patients so unless you are marketing your efforts towards them .... you will be fine.

At the Corp office where I work PT .... there are NO Baby Boomers. No young families. Just younger and medium aged people looking for financing, convenience and night time and sat hours. I can tell that a majority of my patients have had less than ideal dental treatment in the past. Most likely due to $$$ constraints. These are the patients that would rather have a tooth extracted than crown lengthening, RCT, build-up and crown.

Stay the course. . Just keep your debt down so you will have more options when you graduate. You want to be an OOS? Then do it. Just realize that if you try to set up shop in a saturated, popular, large city .... things will be more difficult for you because the competition will be fierce. But it is not impossible. Lots of private practice dentists doing fine around me.

You'll be a dentist with a license. You will always have employment opportunities and the ability to start your own practice (in the right area).

Also ... remember that most posts on an internet forum are typically somewhat negative. Why? Human nature. It's easier to complain.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

I'm not really familiar with the term franchising, could you please explain it to me. I'm always open for new aspects of dentistry to look into, thanks for bringing this up.

Pretty much pay a hefty start-up fee to a corporation and they set up everything for you. You may even start as an associate --> lead dentist/manager --> owner of the office as well (it's another track). However, you may or may not reach full autonomy depending on the group. Look up DSO "Dental Service Organizations" if you want a better idea. Michigan has a branch of dental DSO's called "Great Expressions" which has 28 locations from what I last read. Generally, you just have to practice and you get the latest technology and the autonomy gets better as you move up the chain. Less expense for you and you can focus on paying off your debt versus mortgaging your own private practice which is quite costly. Just another food for thought. Anyways like doc said above stay positive and keep on chugging along the train. If this is what you really want then you will go for it, don't let negativity and cost bring you down. Just focus on the journey, not the destination.

 

[753698]

Like another poster mentioned .... there will always be teeth and people will need good, caring young dentists to care for them. There will always be a market for the medium and high dental IQ patients that are looking for long-term, quality care for them and their family. Corporate, at this time, only appeals to a certain subset of patients so unless you are marketing your efforts towards them .... you will be fine.

At the Corp office where I work PT .... there are NO Baby Boomers. No young families. Just younger and medium aged people looking for financing, convenience and night time and sat hours. I can tell that a majority of my patients have had less than ideal dental treatment in the past. Most likely due to $$$ constraints. These are the patients that would rather have a tooth extracted than crown lengthening, RCT, build-up and crown.

Stay the course. . Just keep your debt down so you will have more options when you graduate. You want to be an OOS? Then do it. Just realize that if you try to set up shop in a saturated, popular, large city .... things will be more difficult for you because the competition will be fierce. But it is not impossible. Lots of private practice dentists doing fine around me.

You'll be a dentist with a license. You will always have employment opportunities and the ability to start your own practice (in the right area).

Also ... remember that most posts on an internet forum are typically somewhat negative. Why? Human nature. It's easier to complain.

Thank you for this statement. It certainly is very reassuring coming from a tenured dentist like yourself. You've been practicing dentistry longer than I've been alive!

 

[753698]

Pretty much pay a hefty start-up fee to a corporation and they set up everything for you. You may even start as an associate --> lead dentist/manager --> owner of the office as well (it's another track). However, you may or may not reach full autonomy depending on the group. Look up DSO "Dental Service Organizations" if you want a better idea. Michigan has a branch of dental DSO's called "Great Expressions" which has 28 locations from what I last read. Generally, you just have to practice and you get the latest technology and the autonomy gets better as you move up the chain. Less expense for you and you can focus on paying off your debt versus mortgaging your own private practice which is quite costly. Just another food for thought. Anyways like doc said above stay positive and keep on chugging along the train. If this is what you really want then you will go for it, don't let negativity and cost bring you down. Just focus on the journey, not the destination.

I was of the impression that DSO's were just a nicer way of saying corporate? Because when I think DSO's I think Heartland Dental, Aspen, Comfort, Pacific, etc. And these are all big corporate chains.

I'm sure being a practice owner will give you (more)autonomy, but from my understanding all financial aspects are handled by the corporation. That means they would control your salary etc. Plus you would still have a manager even being the owner so I don't really know how I feel about that.

Ideally for me, I control what I earn and how I do things and I don't have to report to anyone. That's one of the reasons I'm going into dentistry. This thread is not about me hating corporate dentistry, it's more about me fearing that dentists are losing control over their profession. My goal is to have absolute control over my life. Even if a corporation offered me 500k dollars per year for a lifetime contract, I would most certainly reject it as I would rather work for myself at 200k per year in a situation where I can control every aspect of my life. Plus the idea of building a practice up and becoming a successful dentist really inspires me. When I'm at the end of my career I can look back on what I've built, and I feel like I'll get a sense of fulfillment. I don't think corporate can necessarily offer me those intangibles.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

I was of the impression that DSO's were just a nicer way of saying corporate? Because when I think DSO's I think Heartland Dental, Aspen, Comfort, Pacific, etc. And these are all big corporate chains.

I'm sure being a practice owner will give you (more)autonomy, but from my understanding all financial aspects are handled by the corporation. That means they would control your salary etc. Plus you would still have a manager even being the owner so I don't really know how I feel about that.

Ideally for me, I control what I earn and how I do things and I don't have to report to anyone. That's one of the reasons I'm going into dentistry. This thread is not about me hating corporate dentistry, it's more about me fearing that dentists are losing control over their profession. My goal is to have absolute control over my life. Even if a corporation offered me 500k dollars per year for a lifetime contract, I would most certainly reject it as I would rather work for myself at 200k per year in a situation where I can control every aspect of my life. Plus the idea of building a practice up and becoming a successful dentist really inspires me. When I'm at the end of my career I can look back on what I've built, and I feel like I'll get a sense of fulfillment. I don't think corporate can necessarily offer me those intangibles.

Totally understandable and to a degree I agree with that sentiment. Just throwing it out there! And yeah DSO's are a nicer way of saying corporate but I've also seen franchisee being thrown in there as well. I believe that's a bit different, however, I don't have enough of a background to really understand it.

 

[753698]

but he is working with other deans to keep tuition from rising.

If' that's true, bless this man

 

[GlowDrop]

Although the industry is trending towards corporate, it's totally up to you if you want to go that route. With dentistry the sky is the limit with where you want to take your practice, but you have to be willing to do the work and do some things that might scare you a little.

 

[drsoni]

Although the industry is trending towards corporate, it's totally up to you if you want to go that route. With dentistry the sky is the limit with where you want to take your practice, but you have to be willing to do the work and do some things that might scare you a little.

Couldn't have said it any better. Work hard, and be smart about the area you pick to open your practice, and you'll be fine.

I live in Illinois, in Chicago suburbs. Our area I highly saturated with dentists, but I rarely see any corporate practices. Most of them are individually owned. Like I said, pick the area you practice in wisely. And besides, if you wanna be a dentist, be one. You shouldn't worry a lot about these things. None of us know what will be going on in the profession in the next 5 years. If you worry about the uncertainty I'm every field, you will never be able to decide on a career. All you can do is choose what you like right now and seems to have good prospects right now, then have a plan about your goals in the future, and try your best to achieve them. Also, in this case, participate in ASDA and other dental advocacy groups to ensure your goals of having your own private practice are fulfilled.

Hope this makes sense. Just my personal opinion.

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

 

[aj30]

Although the industry is trending towards corporate, it's totally up to you if you want to go that route. With dentistry the sky is the limit with where you want to take your practice, but you have to be willing to do the work and do some things that might scare you a little.

For now.
That’s the thing about trends-they continue along their current path and increase in “intensity” (unless stopped or reversed, which seems unlikely with corporate dentistry).

Nobody here is asking what things are like now, but what they’re expected to be years down the line, when they graduate, and even decades down the line, when they expect to be at the prime of their careers, raking it in and relaxing at the same time.

 

[753698]

For now.
That’s the thing about trends-they continue along their current path and increase in “intensity” (unless stopped or reversed, which seems unlikely with corporate dentistry).

Nobody here is asking what things are like now, but what they’re expected to be years down the line, when they graduate, and even decades down the line, when they expect to be at the prime of their careers, raking it in and relaxing at the same time.

Yeah this was more my concern. Right now majority of the dentists in the country are still private, but many predictions are that by the time I'm out of dental school the split will be more around 50:50. And then in another 10 years when I'm supposed to be in the prime of my career, private practice may not even be an option. That is what I'm mostly "scared" about.

 

[oralcare123]

Yeah this was more my concern. Right now majority of the dentists in the country are still private, but many predictions are that by the time I'm out of dental school the split will be more around 50:50. And then in another 10 years when I'm supposed to be in the prime of my career, private practice may not even be an option. That is what I'm mostly "scared" about.

It's not going to happen this fast

 

[jttzz112]

AOL dial up was less than 20 years ago

 

[aj30]

It's not going to happen this fast

And suppose it’ll take 20 years? Still not much of a consolation.

 

[753698]

It's not going to happen this fast

I was mostly just going off the trends. DSO's are expanding at a rate of 15% per year, whereas private practice is decreasing somewhere around 7% a year. No one knows exactly how fast this is going to proceed, and DSO growth could plateau(ideally) but going off of current trends the outlook isn't good.

 

[wengerout]

 

[oralcare123]

I was mostly just going off the trends. DSO's are expanding at a rate of 15% per year, whereas private practice is decreasing somewhere around 7% a year. No one knows exactly how fast this is going to proceed, and DSO growth could plateau(ideally) but going off of current trends the outlook isn't good.

There are a lot of people, who are happy with quality of care in majority of corporate offices, but there are still a lot of people, who prefer the one, which can only be offered in a private setting. Note, I am not saying all and always

 

[oralcare123]

And suppose it’ll take 20 years? Still not much of a consolation.

You should be able to adapt. We all might be dead by then, should we just give up now?

 

[aj30]

You should be able to adapt. We all might be dead by then, should we just give up now?

Nobody’s saying people won’t be able to adapt. What I’m saying is that if you’re going into a decades long career for reasons X, Y & Z, and there’s every reason to believe that X, Y & Z may not hold up even 20 years down the line, it’s worth reconsidering your choice. Perhaps there are other reasons why you should stay on that path, perhaps not.

 

[kimball]

"The future is uncertain, and the end is always near"

 

[oralcare123]

Nobody’s saying people won’t be able to adapt. What I’m saying is that if you’re going into a decades long career for reasons X, Y & Z, and there’s every reason to believe that X, Y & Z may not hold up even 20 years down the line, it’s worth reconsidering your choice. Perhaps there are other reasons why you should stay on that path, perhaps not.

Still, there is no need to be that pessimistic. Even in corporate you are still able to make quite a bit of money, regulate how much you want to work. You are not that independent , for sure, but then you don't have toworry about patients flow and overhead and all the female worker drama of the private practice. There are positives

 

[Medin2017]

Still, there is no need to be that pessimistic. Even in corporate you are still able to make quite a bit of money, regulate how much you want to work. You are not that independent , for sure, but then you don't have toworry about patients flow and overhead and all the female worker drama of the private practice. There are positives

Define :

"quite a bit" and "how much you work"

 

[oralcare123]

Define :

"quite a bit" and "how much you work"

I think numbers like 450K a year sound good enough to me.
How much you work, meaning the number of hours
It seems majority here thinks that poor slave dentists in corporate work 7 days a week for mere 100K a year

 

[Medin2017]

I think numbers like 450K a year sound good enough to me.
How much you work, meaning the number of hours
It seems majority here thinks that poor slave dentists in corporate work 7 days a week for mere 100K a year

I was under the impression of more like 40 hours a week and 130k for the first few years. To pull 450 wouldn't you have to be insanely fast (and maybe even unethical from what I've read anyway...)?