Is anyone else scared about the future of dentistry?

[753698]

I was under the impression of more like 40 hours a week and 130k for the first few years. To pull 450 wouldn't you have to be insanely fast (and maybe even unethical from what I've read anyway...)?

You probably would have to be crazy fast and possible unethical, since as a private doctor you can generally take home 30-40 percent of your practice's production home depending on how the overhead is.
At corporate, you are most likely only taking home 25% of your production(maybe more if you buy in, someone who worked in corporate help me out here) because the corporation takes their great cut, while you do the hard work of actually doing dentistry and producing for the corporation. If you were an associate at corporate you would have to be producing 1 million plus per year atleast to be taking home 450k.

Yeahhh, I prefer private practice!

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[oralcare123]

I was under the impression of more like 40 hours a week and 130k for the first few years. To pull 450 wouldn't you have to be insanely fast (and maybe even unethical from what I've read anyway...)?

I didn't say it's a new grad salary. Trust me, there is nothing unethical going on in that case
You should be able to be that good after 5 years, with the right attitude

 

[oralcare123]

You probably would have to be crazy fast and possible unethical, since as a private doctor you can generally take home 30-40 percent of your practice's production home depending on how the overhead is.
At corporate, you are most likely only taking home 25% of your production(maybe more if you buy in, someone who worked in corporate help me out here) because the corporation takes their great cut, while you do the hard work of actually doing dentistry and producing for the corporation. If you were an associate at corporate you would have to be producing 1 million plus per year atleast to be taking home 450k.

Yeahhh, I prefer private practice!

I am not speaking as never practiced pre-dent. You asked if it is doom and gloom ahead of you. I told you - no, BUT with the right attitude. Yours is wrong

 

[Medin2017]

I am not speaking as never practiced pre-dent. You asked if it is doom and gloom ahead of you. I told you - no, BUT with the right attitude. Yours is wrong

So wouldn't that be producing nearly 2 million if you're taking home 25% of it to equal 450k? Or does this involve partnership and long term contracts? Also would prefer not to work in an extremely rural place

 

[torque]

Whether you work for corporate or private, you treat people. That should be your first thought about dentistry, not those extra stuff that comes with it like lifestyle, autonomy, etc.
If you are going into dentistry solely fixated at the idea of running a business, then you can never be successful. It is as if you are going to a culinary school and thinking about opening a restaurant when you do not even know how to cook; how can you have a successful restaurant that way?
As a predent, your mindset should be 1. getting into dental school 2. study hard 3. learn as much as you can.
You are NEVER going to know everything about dentistry when you graduate and that's why new graduates go to residencies (GPR, AEGD) or work for corporate for a few years to get more experience and get the speed up. Of course, you can open your own office or work as an associate for private office. There are many options and that's one of things about our profession that makes it awesome. But right now, don't be hung up on the idea of opening your own office and worrying about corporate. You can worry about it in your D4 year.

 

[2TH MVR]

Well said @torque.

Everyone is different. Some want to graduate, open a private office. Others maybe more content with working as an employee. I practiced privately for 25 years. The 1st 15-20 years were amazing. No Corps and no Invisalign. Economy was booming in Arizona. Totally enjoyed owning 2 practices with Real Estate. The business aspects were difficult, but I made more than enough money to make it worth it. You did not need to be an expert in marketing, social networking or business to make bank and enjoy a nice lifestyle. This was the peak of my business life. Patients happy. Staff happy (I took them to Hawaii twice). I was happy.

Well .... times have changed. In the present .... new dentists will have to adapt to a different economy. It still can be done, but with different tools than I had. Essentially many of you will be more prepared than I was.

As for working for the Corps. This may appeal to those working PT, semi-retired or those that just want to be an employee. Trust me. Just being an employee can be very stress free. I just show up. 100% patient care. Corp essentially leaves me alone. I have say in the days that I work. Free CE. Employer based 401K. My health care premium is less than $500 for my ENTIRE family (4). The employer actually pays half of my premium. Paid days off. Sick days. You just do your thing and leave. That simple. Again ....not for everybody.

 

[oralcare123]

So wouldn't that be producing nearly 2 million if you're taking home 25% of it to equal 450k? Or does this involve partnership and long term contracts? Also would prefer not to work in an extremely rural place

This is before taxes of a hardworking dentist in one of the chains given as an example of something possible and have it as a goal. It is not an average salary in the area or chain
In order to achieve it you need to study well at school, maybe go through residency and the most important be ready to perform a wide range of procedures. You should be able to do RCTs and extractions and be knowlegable enough to be able to persuade a patient to accept the treatment

 

[longhorns21]

But the difference between your examples of Starbucks and the grocery stores is that Dentistry is not a commodity. So the same model doesn't apply.

I understand buying a bag of chips from Wal Mart, but that is not nearly the same thing as going to the dentist to get treated on. With chips, Lays are Lays no matter where you buy it from. With Dentistry, that is not the case. From what I've read, in corporate dentistry patients are just a number, a profit statement. It's all about profits, number crunching, etc. Maybe patients themselves don't realize that they are subjecting themselves for worse care at around 11% of a cheaper price, but I would think it is our duty to inform the general public.

And I'm not trying to go all old school or anything, but corporate dentistry is neither beneficial to the patient nor is it beneficial to the dentist. In fact, a group model in which dentists collaborate and pool resources is much better for the profession of dentistry because it doesn't have venture capitalists and corporate pressures in general influencing the work you do in the clinic.

As for your statement about the corporate offices buying out dentists, that's the exact thing I absolutely oppose. Why should hard working dentists be bullied out by these corporations that did almost nothing except pool their funds from rich people trying to make a quick buck out of dentistry? Are we just going to succumb to these rich folk who have no interest in the future of the profession, but rather of filling their already deep pockets with our hard earned money?

I'm sorry but I just cannot support that.

I would like to say I appreciate that you support the model for a dentist to own a practice, and I hope that the new generation of dentists will be bold enough to make a name for themselves in their community.

*I would like to add that I understand that not all corporations are like this, some are more genuine and sincere, but from what I've read it seems that many of the larger corporations are just corrupt man!

Pump the brakes on your absurdly ill-informed generalizations regarding an entire sector of a profession you appear to be striving to be a part of while simultaneously bashing tens of thousands of future 'colleagues' with accusations lacking any factual, or even anecdotal, evidence whatsoever. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're 1) very young and 2) have never worked a single day of your life as a general dentist or dental specialist. I would recommend picking up a few general business books to first understand that a corporation is simply a classification of business ownership that only dictates the manner in which you pay taxes. Many 'private practices' you refer to are, in fact, corporations. Practices are usually held as LLCs, PLLCs, PCs, S Corps, or C corps - the differences are essentially how you pay taxes and who is ultimately liable in a lawsuit - and have literally nothing to do with the quality of care provided or the manner in which that care is provided. If this is new information for you I would advise you to start reading up on general business practices and business models and stop rambling about subjects you clearly don't understand. To briefly touch on your claims regarding practices you would consider 'corporate', I will tell you that a ****ty and unethical dentist working for a corporation does not magicially become an excellent and ethical provider the day they leave 'corporate' dentistry to go into private practice. In addition, to briefly touch on a macroeconomic principle at the foundation of corporate dentistry is that they exercise economies of scale pertaining to purchasing power of supplies, lab fees, IT, etc., which in turn allows them to provide a service at a lower cost than competitors, ultimately allowing for increased access to care for the general population at a more affordable rate. If that is a problem for you, then perhaps your desire to limit the accessibility of dental care to exclusively those capable of paying in cash fueled ultimately by your greed and not your desire to help others as you claim, is the real problem facing dentistry. I'll go ahead and refute your ignorant comeback that corporate dentists provide questionable dentistry by pointing out that claims on crowns, RCTs, etc are only paid when completed to the professional standard of care, as evidenced by final radiographs. Thoughts?

 

[2TH MVR]

Some good points in the above post. Really can't say that Corp dentists and private dentists have a different set of ethical guidelines. In Corp ..... you work hard to keep your job. In private practice ... you work hard to keep from declaring bankruptcy and losing EVERYTHING including your job. In reality .... the private dentists probably have more pressure to produce then the Corp dentists. They have more to lose.

Some examples of this. Adult patient goes in to see Private dentist with a chief complaint that his front teeth are chipping and breaking. You can clearly see that the patient has a deep OB with retro-inclined upper incisors that are being traumatized during mastication. Also .... the lower incisors are very crowded and there are some obvious incisal wear areas due to the deep OB and lack of even anterior contact. Lets see? Your rent is due today. Payroll is due today. Massive student loan payment is due today. Utilities bill. Taxes. Health Insurance. Dues. Lab bill. Etc. Etc. Then add personal expenses like mortgage, prom dress for the daughter, car insurance for the kids, wife wants new furniture, retirement funding, etc. etc. etc.

So ... are you going to be inclined to send this patient to an orthodontist for specialized, less-invasive care to correct the deep OB and anterior alignment which will allow for proper anterior guidance and prevent further anterior trauma due to a proper OB/OJ ....... or suggest 4-6 upper veneers to essentially COVER the problem.

I would say, and based on my experience with working with MANY private general dentists, is that most private dentists do not want to let all that potential production walk out of their office. Some will even offer to use Invisalign which is very ineffective in correcting deep OBs, open bites, rotations, etc. to keep that production in-house. Is this ethical?

In Corp .... the general dentists, periodontist, oral surgeon, and myself (ortho) have easy access to discuss the best treatment plan for a patient. Because regardless if the patient sees the Ortho, perio or the GP .... the Corp gets paid.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

Some good points in the above post. Really can't say that Corp dentists and private dentists have a different set of ethical guidelines. In Corp ..... you work hard to keep your job. In private practice ... you work hard to keep from declaring bankruptcy and losing EVERYTHING including your job. In reality .... the private dentists probably have more pressure to produce then the Corp dentists. They have more to lose.

Some examples of this. Adult patient goes in to see Private dentist with a chief complaint that his front teeth are chipping and breaking. You can clearly see that the patient has a deep OB with retro-inclined upper incisors that are being traumatized during mastication. Also .... the lower incisors are very crowded and there are some obvious incisal wear areas due to the deep OB and lack of even anterior contact. Lets see? Your rent is due today. Payroll is due today. Massive student loan payment is due today. Utilities bill. Taxes. Health Insurance. Dues. Lab bill. Etc. Etc. Then add personal expenses like mortgage, prom dress for the daughter, car insurance for the kids, wife wants new furniture, retirement funding, etc. etc. etc.

So ... are you going to be inclined to send this patient to an orthodontist for specialized, less-invasive care to correct the deep OB and anterior alignment which will allow for proper anterior guidance and prevent further anterior trauma due to a proper OB/OJ ....... or suggest 4-6 upper veneers to essentially COVER the problem.

I would say, and based on my experience with working with MANY private general dentists, is that most private dentists do not want to let all that potential production walk out of their office. Some will even offer to use Invisalign which is very ineffective in correcting deep OBs, open bites, rotations, etc. to keep that production in-house. Is this ethical?

In Corp .... the general dentists, periodontist, oral surgeon, and myself (ortho) have easy access to discuss the best treatment plan for a patient. Because regardless if the patient sees the Ortho, perio or the GP .... the Corp gets paid.

So essentially it's like all the care in one house? Can most patients afford this kind of care? I have also noticed something while working at a general dental office and that is many patients don't like to be referred out (it is a small sample size) but just a trend I've seen. You make good points though because many dentists will choose not to refer patients out because they focus on THEIR needs (not all but a good majority). This big question of whether or not it's ethical falls upon the individual. However, one must note that you are entering a career in which you need to serve others first and not yourself. So making money is vital to running your business but within means. Working for a big corporation does definitely take care of many of the bill problems though if you are not confident in running your own business. So it really depends on your needs as a clinician at the time which is why I think most of us need not worry about it.

 

[Screwtape]

Some good points in the above post. Really can't say that Corp dentists and private dentists have a different set of ethical guidelines. In Corp ..... you work hard to keep your job. In private practice ... you work hard to keep from declaring bankruptcy and losing EVERYTHING including your job. In reality .... the private dentists probably have more pressure to produce then the Corp dentists. They have more to lose.

Some examples of this. Adult patient goes in to see Private dentist with a chief complaint that his front teeth are chipping and breaking. You can clearly see that the patient has a deep OB with retro-inclined upper incisors that are being traumatized during mastication. Also .... the lower incisors are very crowded and there are some obvious incisal wear areas due to the deep OB and lack of even anterior contact. Lets see? Your rent is due today. Payroll is due today. Massive student loan payment is due today. Utilities bill. Taxes. Health Insurance. Dues. Lab bill. Etc. Etc. Then add personal expenses like mortgage, prom dress for the daughter, car insurance for the kids, wife wants new furniture, retirement funding, etc. etc. etc.

So ... are you going to be inclined to send this patient to an orthodontist for specialized, less-invasive care to correct the deep OB and anterior alignment which will allow for proper anterior guidance and prevent further anterior trauma due to a proper OB/OJ ....... or suggest 4-6 upper veneers to essentially COVER the problem.

I would say, and based on my experience with working with MANY private general dentists, is that most private dentists do not want to let all that potential production walk out of their office. Some will even offer to use Invisalign which is very ineffective in correcting deep OBs, open bites, rotations, etc. to keep that production in-house. Is this ethical?

In Corp .... the general dentists, periodontist, oral surgeon, and myself (ortho) have easy access to discuss the best treatment plan for a patient. Because regardless if the patient sees the Ortho, perio or the GP .... the Corp gets paid.

Jeez that is some strong corporate kool aid you are drinking over there....

 

[2TH MVR]

Jeez that is some strong corporate kool aid you are drinking over there....

Margaritas more my style. 75 degrees here in Scottsdale. Lunch time. Wife and I going to our favorite Mex food place and I'm sure to enjoy a Margarita or two.

 

[Don Kim]

I think corporate dentistry is generally great for affordability, but probably not up-to-par with private practice in terms of quality. Their main goal is to maximize profit, and this tends to steer them towards low-cost, many patients sort of model. So often times patients may get treatments for cheap, but not get the same kind of attention/time from the dentists as they would at a private practice. Not saying this is true for all corporate/DSOs obviously. I've seen exceptions to this rule. But just in general, this is what seems to be the trend. So I think its great for lower/middle income earners, as it is making dentistry more accessible. However, for people who consider quality an important factor, I think they will quickly realize that that's usually not number 1 in the list of priorities for corporate dental firms. You find that more often in private practice. So I think each branch offers its own set of benefits over the other, and thus, targets different parts of the market. As long as you focus on giving patients a lot of attention, and quality care, I think you should be just fine as a private practitioner. This is just my take. thoughts?

 

[hizi]

If it were up to me, Id work for corp and that's it. I don't think I want the headache dentists have with their private practices nowadays, forget about that. I have family members with private practices and I can tell you it's not as it used to be as far as I'm concerned (it's all I hear from them and their friends).

I live in florida, close to the famous mouse and I can tell you there are around 10 dental offices (or more) in the area I live. There's even one that is open 24/7 but this won't stop me from achieving my goals and dreams. Just move to a more rural area and you are set.

I can tell you every career is having the same issues, even MDs. My friend (MD) came over last month and she was telling me how cut throat it is, she even told me stories about other doctors trying to take over her patients.

do what you feel happy about and don't think about the negative, there will always be ups and downs in every profession. Don't do it only for the money bc money can't buy happiness (tell me about it).

 

[753698]

Whether you work for corporate or private, you treat people. That should be your first thought about dentistry, not those extra stuff that comes with it like lifestyle, autonomy, etc.
If you are going into dentistry solely fixated at the idea of running a business, then you can never be successful. It is as if you are going to a culinary school and thinking about opening a restaurant when you do not even know how to cook; how can you have a successful restaurant that way?
As a predent, your mindset should be 1. getting into dental school 2. study hard 3. learn as much as you can.
You are NEVER going to know everything about dentistry when you graduate and that's why new graduates go to residencies (GPR, AEGD) or work for corporate for a few years to get more experience and get the speed up. Of course, you can open your own office or work as an associate for private office. There are many options and that's one of things about our profession that makes it awesome. But right now, don't be hung up on the idea of opening your own office and worrying about corporate. You can worry about it in your D4 year.

That's the thing though. I don't want to wait till D4 to start learning about this stuff. Because at that point there is no going back, investing 4 years and 500k isn't easy to bounce back from. If I do my due diligence now, I can stop myself from possibly making a mistake that I will regret later on. Or at the very least be ready for any changes that occur in the future, and just be more informed. I've honestly learned a lot in the past few weeks about the profession, and from SDN also. I know people always say focus on getting in dental school and finishing school before worrying about this stuff, but then people also say dentists should be more ready for the business aspect of dentistry. Why not just combine them. I figure I'll learn most my dentistry in dental school, but dental school doesn't really offer business advice, so I thought I might as well take my time and learn that stuff now.

This is before taxes of a hardworking dentist in one of the chains given as an example of something possible and have it as a goal. It is not an average salary in the area or chain
In order to achieve it you need to study well at school, maybe go through residency and the most important be ready to perform a wide range of procedures. You should be able to do RCTs and extractions and be knowlegable enough to be able to persuade a patient to accept the treatment

If I'm understanding this correctly, that dentist is producing almost twice as much as a dentist in private practice would need to in order to get the same income before tax/loans etc. So doesn't it seem like this dentist is just earning a lot more money for his boss than himself?

 

[753698]

Pump the brakes on your absurdly ill-informed generalizations regarding an entire sector of a profession you appear to be striving to be a part of while simultaneously bashing tens of thousands of future 'colleagues' with accusations lacking any factual, or even anecdotal, evidence whatsoever. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're 1) very young and 2) have never worked a single day of your life as a general dentist or dental specialist. I would recommend picking up a few general business books to first understand that a corporation is simply a classification of business ownership that only dictates the manner in which you pay taxes. Many 'private practices' you refer to are, in fact, corporations. Practices are usually held as LLCs, PLLCs, PCs, S Corps, or C corps - the differences are essentially how you pay taxes and who is ultimately liable in a lawsuit - and have literally nothing to do with the quality of care provided or the manner in which that care is provided. If this is new information for you I would advise you to start reading up on general business practices and business models and stop rambling about subjects you clearly don't understand. To briefly touch on your claims regarding practices you would consider 'corporate', I will tell you that a ****ty and unethical dentist working for a corporation does not magicially become an excellent and ethical provider the day they leave 'corporate' dentistry to go into private practice. In addition, to briefly touch on a macroeconomic principle at the foundation of corporate dentistry is that they exercise economies of scale pertaining to purchasing power of supplies, lab fees, IT, etc., which in turn allows them to provide a service at a lower cost than competitors, ultimately allowing for increased access to care for the general population at a more affordable rate. If that is a problem for you, then perhaps your desire to limit the accessibility of dental care to exclusively those capable of paying in cash fueled ultimately by your greed and not your desire to help others as you claim, is the real problem facing dentistry. I'll go ahead and refute your ignorant comeback that corporate dentists provide questionable dentistry by pointing out that claims on crowns, RCTs, etc are only paid when completed to the professional standard of care, as evidenced by final radiographs. Thoughts?

I'm sorry if I seemed like I was bashing corporate a bit too much. I would like to backtrack on that and just say I have no actual experience in the dental field and my statements were based on what I've researched on the internet.

I understand that even private practices can be set up as corporations, but those are solely dentist owned and managed. I've read up on the tax benefits they offer. However this is not the same as private equity firms investing in dental practices and having non-dentists CEO's managing a practice. My aim of the subject was more towards the latter.

I guess I will finish with this: I don't hate corporate, I just hate being an employee. I don't like getting told what to do, nor do I like getting pushed around. I have an interest in the field of dentistry because of the entrepreneurial opportunities it provides and because it caters to my genuine interest in healthcare.

 

[753698]

I think corporate dentistry is generally great for affordability, but probably not up-to-par with private practice in terms of quality. Their main goal is to maximize profit, and this tends to steer them towards low-cost, many patients sort of model. So often times patients may get treatments for cheap, but not get the same kind of attention/time from the dentists as they would at a private practice. Not saying this is true for all corporate/DSOs obviously. I've seen exceptions to this rule. But just in general, this is what seems to be the trend. So I think its great for lower/middle income earners, as it is making dentistry more accessible. However, for people who consider quality an important factor, I think they will quickly realize that that's usually not number 1 in the list of priorities for corporate dental firms. You find that more often in private practice. So I think each branch offers its own set of benefits over the other, and thus, targets different parts of the market. As long as you focus on giving patients a lot of attention, and quality care, I think you should be just fine as a private practitioner. This is just my take. thoughts?

I definitely can agree with this. As others have said, corporate is a great way for the lower income population to get the care they deserve. Corporate will certainly grow over the next few years/decades. And I really hope you are correct in that private practitioners also continue to excel in this new era of dentistry.

 

[Don Kim]

I definitely can agree with this. As others have said, corporate is a great way for the lower income population to get the care they deserve. Corporate will certainly grow over the next few years/decades. And I really hope you are correct in that private practitioners also continue to excel in this new era of dentistry.

Yeah I do think Private Practitioners can thrive if they take advantage of quality care and forming relationships. That is the best way to differentiate from corporate. If they don't practice this, then I think it will be pretty difficult for practitioners to compete the big boys. I just don't see how otherwise because very few things can trump low cost.

 

[thenextcarnegie]

@Shak Muscles You make valid points and I totally understand your apprehension in investing 500k for dental education. Like I have said and will continue to reiterate it's really unknown 5-10 years down the road what will happen. However, sometimes you just have to take the leap, have faith, and trust it will go well. If it doesn't then you will have to deal with it when the problem happens, but being proactive in the matter never hurts. I will say one thing, learning from SDN is good but there are better places to learn about business in general. My suggestion is if you aren't in school and in a gap year is to go to udemy. It's a company that offers courses on LITERALLY everything for like $10 to $200 courses (which are usually on sale). Pick up a few classes on finance, business management, emotional intelligence, quick MBA course, etc and LEARN. Dental school will not teach you these principles but if you go out and seek the knowledge it will make you not only a well-rounded clinician but a smart businessman as well. I have been spending a lot of time learning from here and it has really helped in gaining business knowledge. If that is your biggest concern then I suggest starting there and not on SDN (no offense, I love this place, but most of us are not business-oriented people). If you need help picking what courses and are interested in doing it, just shoot me a PM and I can tell you what courses I have taken. I hope I have helped calm your anxieties and my solution is that you go out and seek knowledge on what you do not know.

OH and one other thing...remember this forever...if you are passionate about Dentistry the money will come. That much I can promise you.

 

[oralcare123]

That's the thing though. I don't want to wait till D4 to start learning about this stuff. Because at that point there is no going back, investing 4 years and 500k isn't easy to bounce back from. If I do my due diligence now, I can stop myself from possibly making a mistake that I will regret later on. Or at the very least be ready for any changes that occur in the future, and just be more informed. I've honestly learned a lot in the past few weeks about the profession, and from SDN also. I know people always say focus on getting in dental school and finishing school before worrying about this stuff, but then people also say dentists should be more ready for the business aspect of dentistry. Why not just combine them. I figure I'll learn most my dentistry in dental school, but dental school doesn't really offer business advice, so I thought I might as well take my time and learn that stuff now.

If I'm understanding this correctly, that dentist is producing almost twice as much as a dentist in private practice would need to in order to get the same income before tax/loans etc. So doesn't it seem like this dentist is just earning a lot more money for his boss than himself?

Owning a practice is often such a headache, that no amount of money s worth it

 

[2TH MVR]

There is a huge amount of pride and accomplishment in owning your own practice. Not to mention all the tax breaks you get. I would say for most .... practice ownership is the goal. The point of these SDN posts is to hopefully alert the young dentists that the day of opening a practice/or buying a practice and putting your name on the sign is not as easy in this new economy. It wasn't easy back then also. Trust me .... I made some mistakes. No one is perfect.

Strive for practice ownership. Just locate a place where you can be successful.

I did this for 26 years. Enjoyed it for the most part. Being semi-retired ..... working for a Corp PT is relaxing and stress free for me now. Working for a Corp is not for everybody nor should it be the primary goal of new dentists. It's a job. That's it.

 

[753698]

@Shak Muscles You make valid points and I totally understand your apprehension in investing 500k for dental education. Like I have said and will continue to reiterate it's really unknown 5-10 years down the road what will happen. However, sometimes you just have to take the leap, have faith, and trust it will go well. If it doesn't then you will have to deal with it when the problem happens, but being proactive in the matter never hurts. I will say one thing, learning from SDN is good but there are better places to learn about business in general. My suggestion is if you aren't in school and in a gap year is to go to udemy. It's a company that offers courses on LITERALLY everything for like $10 to $200 courses (which are usually on sale). Pick up a few classes on finance, business management, emotional intelligence, quick MBA course, etc and LEARN. Dental school will not teach you these principles but if you go out and seek the knowledge it will make you not only a well-rounded clinician but a smart businessman as well. I have been spending a lot of time learning from here and it has really helped in gaining business knowledge. If that is your biggest concern then I suggest starting there and not on SDN (no offense, I love this place, but most of us are not business-oriented people). If you need help picking what courses and are interested in doing it, just shoot me a PM and I can tell you what courses I have taken. I hope I have helped calm your anxieties and my solution is that you go out and seek knowledge on what you do not know.

OH and one other thing...remember this forever...if you are passionate about Dentistry the money will come. That much I can promise you.

Thank you for the resource. I will certainly look into it but probably in the summer months. Right now I got a bunch of classes I gotta ace in order to get into dental school haha. I was just making some posts on SDN to get some insight from other dentists etc.

But definitely I'm going to invest some time when I'm free into business courses online so I get a better understanding on how everything works and possibly pick up some leadership strategies.

"OH and one other thing...remember this forever...if you are passionate about Dentistry the money will come. That much I can promise you." This is true, I do believe that if someone really masters their craft they will find a way to be successful no matter what the situation is like. My main goal will probably be to work on being flexible and adapting as changes arise, because the dentists that adapt the best will probably flourish.

I'm definitely looking at dentistry from a different perspective now compared to a few weeks ago. It's not all doom and gloom, but more about what strategies I can implement to be successful, and what are the main qualities of a successful dentist. It's not really about corporate vs private, but rather about what you can offer to the community that makes you unique and why people would want to come get treatment from you.

 

[753698]

Owning a practice is often such a headache, that no amount of money s worth it

Not necessarily about the money. As 2TH MVR said, its about the pride and accomplishment. I want to have a career where I feel fulfilled at the end, and I can look back at the practice I spent 20+ years building.

Rather than a headache, owning a dental practice can be fun if you are truly invested in it.

 

[oralcare123]

Not necessarily about the money. As 2TH MVR said, its about the pride and accomplishment. I want to have a career where I feel fulfilled at the end, and I can look back at the practice I spent 20+ years building.

Rather than a headache, owning a dental practice can be fun if you are truly invested in it.

As I understand, you never owned a practice nor worked in one, so you can't really say much on a subject, other then express your dreams and desires.
Private practice is a lot of work, especially if it's a solo practice and a lot of people just don't want to deal with it. Pride and accomplishments could be seven figures in your bank account

 

[753698]

As I understand, you never owned a practice nor worked in one, so you can't really say much on a subject, other then express your dreams and desires.
Private practice is a lot of work, especially if it's a solo practice and a lot of people just don't want to deal with it. Pride and accomplishments could be seven figures in your bank account

There's things you can do to reduce the amount of work, such as delegating responsibilities. You could also hire management services which could lower your income but take a lot of stress off. The only solution isn't switching to corporate...

Also, your comment comes off as saying if you want 7 figures in your bank account, you gotta work for corporate. I might not be a dentist yet, but I'm sure that is far from the truth. Earning potential seems to be higher in private practice, since in corporate your earning potential is more or less limited to what the corporation is willing to pay you. Whereas if you run your business, you dictate what your earning potential is. If you have topped out on production, you could hire associates and expand the practice etc.

Corporate gives you a steady salary and probably has a higher floor than private, but I would say private has a higher ceiling.

I'm not trying to convince people to go into private practice, I just don't see how it is as bad as you are making it out to be. If it were really that bad, then the >50% or so dentists with their own office would have sold their souls to corporate a long time ago.

To each their own.

 

[oralcare123]

There's things you can do to reduce the amount of work, such as delegating responsibilities. You could also hire management services which could lower your income but take a lot of stress off. The only solution isn't switching to corporate...

Also, your comment comes off as saying if you want 7 figures in your bank account, you gotta work for corporate. I might not be a dentist yet, but I'm sure that is far from the truth. Earning potential seems to be higher in private practice, since in corporate your earning potential is more or less limited to what the corporation is willing to pay you. Whereas if you run your business, you dictate what your earning potential is. If you have topped out on production, you could hire associates and expand the practice etc.

Corporate gives you a steady salary and probably has a higher floor than private, but I would say private has a higher ceiling.

I'm not trying to convince people to go into private practice, I just don't see how it is as bad as you are making it out to be. If it were really that bad, then the >50% or so dentists with their own office would have sold their souls to corporate a long time ago.

To each their own.

That is not what I meant. What I wanted to say, that it does not matter if you filled your bank account by working for someone else or by working for yourself. Even though the income might be higher in a private practice, the amount of responsibilities is much higher as well. Delegating is only possible, if you can afford to. Often private owners are overworked and overstressed
Again, for young people it might be attractive, but for older ones or women, who don't want to work many hours, corporate is a viable option

 

[753698]

That is not what I meant. What I wanted to say, that it does not matter if you filled your bank account by working for someone else or by working for yourself. Even though the income might be higher in a private practice, the amount of responsibilities is much higher as well. Delegating is only possible, if you can afford to. Often private owners are overworked and overstressed
Again, for young people it might be attractive, but for older ones or women, who don't want to work many hours, corporate is a viable option

Yeah I'm pretty driven. I wouldn't mind putting in extra hours to grow my practice.

I can see why private practice might be tough on older retiring dentists, and in a lot of cases their practices tend to decline pretty hard towards the very end of the careers (probably mostly because they only work 2-3 days a week). I could see why corporate would allow them to retire gracefully. Plus I think corporate usually pays a premium for purchasing your practice right?

 

[timwatley]

Things are going to move towards population management and I see an increasing Medicaid/Medicare population because people want the gov to take care of them, like many socialized European countries. Why, I don’t know, but that’s the way we are trending. I would expect capitation type programs to grow in order to take care of these patients and the smart dentists will take large chunks at 20 a head for a set check from the gov each month.

Regarding full corporate takeover, that won’t happen. Dentistry is personal and there will always be a certain segment of the population that wants to know and trust and easily contact the person that’s operating a drill that operates at 360,000 rpm inside their mouth. We’ll end up with small boutique type practices or large group practices and these will exist along with the corporations.

It’s good to keep these thoughts in mind and congrats on thinking about the bigger picture. The biggest problem you all have is student loans. It is a bubble and it will pop, I can promise you that. Remember what happened when the last housing bubble popped? Don’t take out a dime more in loans than you need to, live with parents, and consider private loans if you can find a good company with better rates. Do not buy a house or car right when you graduate, pay your loans off. You’ll thank me for this advice when you start making payments on your loans and more than half your payment goes towards the accumulated interest! Have fun.

 

[Symphonies]

Things are going to move towards population management and I see an increasing Medicaid/Medicare population because people want the gov to take care of them, like many socialized European countries. Why, I don’t know, but that’s the way we are trending. I would expect capitation type programs to grow in order to take care of these patients and the smart dentists will take large chunks at 20 a head for a set check from the gov each month.

Regarding full corporate takeover, that won’t happen. Dentistry is personal and there will always be a certain segment of the population that wants to know and trust and easily contact the person that’s operating a drill that operates at 360,000 rpm inside their mouth. We’ll end up with small boutique type practices or large group practices and these will exist along with the corporations.

It’s good to keep these thoughts in mind and congrats on thinking about the bigger picture. The biggest problem you all have is student loans. It is a bubble and it will pop, I can promise you that. Remember what happened when the last housing bubble popped? Don’t take out a dime more in loans than you need to, live with parents, and consider private loans if you can find a good company with better rates. Do not buy a house or car right when you graduate, pay your loans off. You’ll thank me for this advice when you start making payments on your loans and more than half your payment goes towards the accumulated interest! Have fun.

As someone with 0 knowledge about the economy (at the moment anyways, haven't had a change to get too informed yet), stupid question: what do you mean about the bubble popping? There'll be less opportunities to pay back massive loans because of decreased demand?

 

[Don Kim]

THERE IS a pathway towards private practice with student loans. People have done it. Take out loans after doing the math, and have some buffer in the calculation. This takes out wishful thinking which tends to always screw people up, and gets you in the habit of planning. It really just comes down to a matter of doing a TON of extra work regarding financing, winning people over, and learning business. But I would say for entrepreneurial types, it would be very rewarding. Actually if you are, it is probably the only option for you b/c if you just work for a corporate you'll be unhappy. It comes down to what your DNA is. Some people perfectly happy at corporate, and it does not say anything less of them. It's just a matter of preference. Just because corporate is increasing doesn't mean they will eat up private practice. It's not necessarily that binary.

 

[753698]

We’ll end up with small boutique type practices or large group practices and these will exist along with the corporations.

I have a few questions about this topic if you wouldn't mind. I've been hearing that establishing a niche dental practice will set you apart from corporate and would be a profitable business model. I guess it's the same with botique practices too. For these kinds of practices, how would you set yourself apart and establish your practice as a "high end" practice? Do you renovate your office to look modern/appealing? Would you offer dental spa treatments? Would these practices be focused more towards cosmetics or prevention dentistry rather than restorative dentistry?

As for large group practices, do you mean a practice which has specialists also so no treatments get referred out and everything is done in house? Or do you mean a chain of local dental practices that are privately owned by a dentist rather than a corporation?

 

[timwatley]

I have a few questions about this topic if you wouldn't mind. I've been hearing that establishing a niche dental practice will set you apart from corporate and would be a profitable business model. I guess it's the same with botique practices too. For these kinds of practices, how would you set yourself apart and establish your practice as a "high end" practice? Do you renovate your office to look modern/appealing? Would you offer dental spa treatments? Would these practices be focused more towards cosmetics or prevention dentistry rather than restorative dentistry?

As for large group practices, do you mean a practice which has specialists also so no treatments get referred out and everything is done in house? Or do you mean a chain of local dental practices that are privately owned by a dentist rather than a corporation?

Good questions - here's my ridiculously long response

As far as a niche practice, I haven't set one up - I'm 2 years out. I did, however, land a great associate position at one of the highest producing private practices in the state. Also, coincidentally, the owner of the practice is best friends with the CEO of a major 100+ million dental chain. I go to lunch with both frequently (once every week or two) and I've learned more over lunch with them, than dental school taught me in 4 years...or would have taught me in 30 years.

A boutique practice would be a practice that provides an ultimate experience to a certain type of patient. If you were going to buy a new Lexus, would you go to a shady corner car lot, or the fancy car dealership? You would go to the fancy car dealership. Why? Thats your answer. You have the money, obviously, and you want the positive experience. Dentistry is extremely personal and commands a lot of trust. If you can earn the trust of your patients by doing whats right for them and create a practice that makes them excited to go to the dentist, you've already beat the corporations. If you throw in an emphasis on high quality dental work and unique services that other dentists don't provide such as invisalign, botox, occlusion therapy, implants, full mouth rehab, complex oral surgery (impacted thirds, apico, grafting)...you'll have patients that feel unique and special for going to you. Personal phone calls (which are possible because you have a fewer amount of patients to worry about) and maybe a hot lemon towel after the appointment....those type of things. You just have to be willing to work and provide the ultimate experience for your patients...whoever those patients may be. This will attract the segment of society that feels they shouldn't be treated like a head of cattle. It won't attract your run of the mill medicaid patient that wants to cut corners and get away with the cheapest possible treatment. It will also usually allow you to have a lower overhead since your office is smaller, therefore netting you more profit.

A larger group practice (I'm talking private, not corporate), in my opinion, gives tons of flexibility and allows the practice to corner a larger segment of the population because they are capable of working on more patients (more dental chairs set up, more assistant, bigger hygiene department). They can be open 7 days a week. They also have the resources to take on large segments of population care - medicare, medicaid. Some offices will hire associates to treat the medicaid population while the older dentists will take the FFS, private insurance. Others do it differently. Some don't take medicaid at all. It also allows for more staff to be hired since more money is being generated to cover the overhead. Dentists can cover for each other when they don't want to work and keep the office running which is important for money making, emergency appointments, phone calls, a sense of stability in the community, etc.

Any practice size in between can still work, and there are some dentists out there in medium sized practices killing it. I just happen to think the trend will favor smaller, specialized, boutique practices that are dedicated to targeting a certain segment of the population....or large group practices. I think dentists that aren't super creative or willing to work hard will find the profit and overhead of medium sized practices unfavorable over time.

The most important thing I can tell you is to realize this - The only constant in life is change. Those who embrace change will be more successful. If you watch 95% of the news in this country you'll generally hear favorable views of European style health care or European style economics. Over the long term, each election cycle brings us a step closer to socialized medicine or a socialized country. A reasonably intelligent person, despite their political leanings, will realize the direction we are going and they'll find a way to make a buck off it....even if that buck will eventually be taxed at 85%. Dentistry is a great profession and it's a needed skill, which can't be said about many jobs. Back in the golden days you could just open your office and make good money. Now you have to be more creative, the game has changed. The solutions are to accept change and adapt, or change the rules so we can have another golden era.

 

[Medin2017]

Good questions - here's my ridiculously long response

As far as a niche practice, I haven't set one up - I'm 2 years out. I did, however, land a great associate position at one of the highest producing private practices in the state. Also, coincidentally, the owner of the practice is best friends with the CEO of a major 100+ million dental chain. I go to lunch with both frequently (once every week or two) and I've learned more over lunch with them, than dental school taught me in 4 years...or would have taught me in 30 years.

A boutique practice would be a practice that provides an ultimate experience to a certain type of patient. If you were going to buy a new Lexus, would you go to a shady corner car lot, or the fancy car dealership? You would go to the fancy car dealership. Why? Thats your answer. You have the money, obviously, and you want the positive experience. Dentistry is extremely personal and commands a lot of trust. If you can earn the trust of your patients by doing whats right for them and create a practice that makes them excited to go to the dentist, you've already beat the corporations. If you throw in an emphasis on high quality dental work and unique services that other dentists don't provide such as invisalign, botox, occlusion therapy, implants, full mouth rehab, complex oral surgery (impacted thirds, apico, grafting)...you'll have patients that feel unique and special for going to you. Personal phone calls (which are possible because you have a fewer amount of patients to worry about) and maybe a hot lemon towel after the appointment....those type of things. You just have to be willing to work and provide the ultimate experience for your patients...whoever those patients may be. This will attract the segment of society that feels they shouldn't be treated like a head of cattle. It won't attract your run of the mill medicaid patient that wants to cut corners and get away with the cheapest possible treatment. It will also usually allow you to have a lower overhead since your office is smaller, therefore netting you more profit.

A larger group practice (I'm talking private, not corporate), in my opinion, gives tons of flexibility and allows the practice to corner a larger segment of the population because they are capable of working on more patients (more dental chairs set up, more assistant, bigger hygiene department). They can be open 7 days a week. They also have the resources to take on large segments of population care - medicare, medicaid. Some offices will hire associates to treat the medicaid population while the older dentists will take the FFS, private insurance. Others do it differently. Some don't take medicaid at all. It also allows for more staff to be hired since more money is being generated to cover the overhead. Dentists can cover for each other when they don't want to work and keep the office running which is important for money making, emergency appointments, phone calls, a sense of stability in the community, etc.

Any practice size in between can still work, and there are some dentists out there in medium sized practices killing it. I just happen to think the trend will favor smaller, specialized, boutique practices that are dedicated to targeting a certain segment of the population....or large group practices. I think dentists that aren't super creative or willing to work hard will find the profit and overhead of medium sized practices unfavorable over time.

The most important thing I can tell you is to realize this - The only constant in life is change. Those who embrace change will be more successful. If you watch 95% of the news in this country you'll generally hear favorable views of European style health care or European style economics. Over the long term, each election cycle brings us a step closer to socialized medicine or a socialized country. A reasonably intelligent person, despite their political leanings, will realize the direction we are going and they'll find a way to make a buck off it....even if that buck will eventually be taxed at 85%. Dentistry is a great profession and it's a needed skill, which can't be said about many jobs. Back in the golden days you could just open your office and make good money. Now you have to be more creative, the game has changed. The solutions are to accept change and adapt, or change the rules so we can have another golden era.

Honestly think healthcare in America is a little bit more complex than in Europe where their population is homogenized, the average person is healthier, and training is different. Not sure if America will ever go the way of Europe, but in either case we both are speculating. Nice advice on the niche stuff and group practices though. I wouldn't say we are voting towards socialism as we've seemed to have mixes of Republicans and democrats over the past 16 years with Bernie mostly getting support from college kids who have never paid taxes in their lives.

 

[timwatley]

Honestly think healthcare in America is a little bit more complex than in Europe where their population is homogenized, the average person is healthier, and training is different. Not sure if America will ever go the way of Europe, but in either case we both are speculating. Nice advice on the niche stuff and group practices though. I wouldn't say we are voting towards socialism as we've seemed to have mixes of Republicans and democrats over the past 16 years with Bernie mostly getting support from college kids who have never paid taxes in their lives.

Its just speculation, but I think I'm right...and I know the corporate CEO thinks he's right. He started 20 years ago when most dentists didn't want to take a peak outside the box and look at things differently and how things were trending. He ended 20 years later selling to DentaQuest - a nationwide company that wanted to implement his model.

I'd love to believe you are right, but I'm afraid we live in an age where people will demand more and more from the government to fix their ills. You are among one of the groups - you can bet that there will be large amounts of students demanding student debts to be forgiven and political campaigns will run with it. Anyway, just something to keep in mind. I've contributed my bit, maybe I'll be back in 4 years.

Majority of millennials want to live in socialist, fascist or communist nation: Poll

 

[schmoob]

If you watch 95% of the news in this country you'll generally hear favorable views of European style health care or European style economics.

We must watch different news channels...

 

[2TH MVR]

@timwatley ..... you point out some good points.

The entrepreneur who decided to open a dental Corp years ago was indeed bright.

A word about boutique practices. This concept is not new. It's been around for as long as I've been in practice. Look around my area in N. Scottsdale. Many, many boutique practices offering what I refer to as "smoke and mirrors". Some work. Most don't. The analogy is that there are dozens and dozens of Lexus dealerships competing for that limited niche of a consumer. Another analogy. A fancy restaurant in a nice area. The setting maybe nice, but if the food sucks .... then no amount of niceties is going to make up for this. Same thing with your so-called boutique practices. It's fine as long as the treatment is commensurate with the surroundings. Again ... I've seen these practices come and go in N. Scottsdale.

I agree that a dentist has to be willing to change. I bucked that trend for as long as I could. My old fashion views were to practice ethical and high quality dentistry/orthodontics to develop a reputation whereby patients would refer their friends to you. No smoke and mirrors. This worked for the most part, but then ..... the new times happened. Yelp this, google this, uber this, direct smile club this, etc. etc. Change is inevitable. I'm sure the old timers before me were lamenting the same thing when they saw me opening up my fancy office with water falls, game rooms, yogert machines, prizes, contests, etc. etc.. LOL.

 

[753698]

I don't want to go into politics but if we become a socialist country god help us.

 

[Medin2017]

I don't want to go into politics but if we become a socialist country god help us.

God help the people with more than 300k in debt really. You're not paying that off on a European dental/medical salary.

 

[753698]

God help the people with more than 300k in debt really. You're not paying that off on a European dental/medical salary.

Exactly!

America, please spare us.

 

[Tinyhandz]

If corporate offices start offering tuition repayment plans that would be fine on a 130k+ salary, though I doubt many corporate chains want to pay 300k+ in loans. The problem in dentistry will be that the loans will get to high and too many new schools are opening.

I really doubt the U.S.A will go towards a socialized dentistry, maybe medicine but who knows. European primary care doctors make less than associate dentists here so I wonder what socialized dentists would make. But for the most part millennial are far more accepting of government intervention to fix things problems so I think an inevitable socialization of medicine is likely, though through attrition and one at a time. Higher taxes are inevitable as well since we are running at a 700 billion dollar deficit and it is only getting bigger, and people like dentists will be paying a bigger proportion of taxes since technically we are in the top 95 percentile and the bottom 47% don't pay federal taxes and hence won't care about raising taxes on doctors or dentists.

Honestly the taxes to me aren't even the worse part as schools that are now costing 400k in tuition will end up costing $5,400 a month due to the 7.7% interest rate. If the salary of dentists keep going down and the tuition gets higher and higher I don't see what will be the point of becoming a dentist soon. And our lobbying power is rather poor say compared to the American Medical Association.

 

[753698]

I think there are some corporate chains that do offer to help pay student loans but I think you have to sign a longer term contract for that. I see why that option is still attractive to new grads though. Fortunately for me loans shouldn't be too big of a problem so I should have more freedom to go the private practice route.

The taxes really do suck, and while there are tax loopholes for practice owning dentists, it seems like the upper middle class really gets fleeced. The super rich don't pay taxes, the poor don't pay taxes, so we're the only ones left LOL!

 

[Alpha Centauri]

After being in school for a semester you begin to realize the real world debt burden.

With that being said, if you go into this field with a debt load of under 300k, I think one is good to go. 6 figures, hard work but relatively easy lifestyle, self employment with potential to go into the business side of things. It might be hard for me to make 1 million take home income but I am sure as hell content with a solid sub 200k 6 figure income with near limitless room for growth depending on practice ownership. The notion that at some point I will risk it all and build a practice is scary as hell, but the reward of beating the competition and serving loyal patients are well worth the risk and intimidation.

 

[Stanelz]

I stopped reading after like 10 posts but I am going into dentistry because I truly enjoy the work. I've had jobs that sucked...like really sucked and honestly I would rather be 350k in debt making 150k (or less if needbe) a year than no debt and making more at a job I hate. Maybe im foolish to say that but ill be damned if I have to work another job I hate.

I would still go into dentistry even if the average income was lower. I work as an assistant now and make less than 20k which sucks but I truly love my job. I don't have to force my self up in the morning. Ive had jobs where I was making double what I make now but I was miserable. If you do what you love, you will find a way to make ends meet.

There's a quote I love that goes "If you do what you love, you'll never have to work a day in your life."

Am I worried about debt? sure but once you work a couple jobs you hate you will understand how fortunate it is to get into professional school and the debt will be worth it. Would I still go if my debt load was a million dollars? idk thats kinda ridiculous....

just my two cents

 

[753698]

I totally understand.
For me personally, I really like dentistry because of the professional freedom. I would like to go to work and answer to no one but myself. It won't always be that way, but that's my ultimate career goal.

 

[tado7]

is anyone else worried about the recent news that amazon, berkshire hathaway, and jp morgan will team up to disrupt health care and focus on technology to lower costs? I dont know what this means for the future but Im just worried somehow some way we are doomed... I like the idea of everyone being able to afford healthcare, but Im just worried about what "technology" the future will hold and how this will affect our pay. I have a hefty loan just like majority of people and have no idea how to pay it if my salaray is shredded to pieces due to corporations wanting to lower their healthcare costs by whatever means .... i guess only the future will tell

 

[753698]

is anyone else worried about the recent news that amazon, berkshire hathaway, and jp morgan will team up to disrupt health care and focus on technology to lower costs? I dont know what this means for the future but Im just worried somehow some way we are doomed... I like the idea of everyone being able to afford healthcare, but Im just worried about what "technology" the future will hold and how this will affect our pay. I have a hefty loan just like majority of people and have no idea how to pay it if my salaray is shredded to pieces due to corporations wanting to lower their healthcare costs by whatever means .... i guess only the future will tell

I feel like "WalMart Dentistry" will actually become a thing in the future, but as people in this thread have said that will generally be the low income population going there. I hope that atleast half the population would still go to private practice dentistry for the higher quality/patient time they can offer.

I think technology might actually be beneficial because they can reduce the amount of time we are doing dentistry and increase the amount of time we spend interacting with the patients. That would be a good thing for private practice. It would even benefit corporate because their production numbers would go through the roof. They can pump out patient after patient in a fraction of the time they do now. I could see how the efficiency in production could lead to lower costs because corporations can charge even less, but at the end of the day as long as people's teeth hurt, we still hold the upper hand in being able to name our price. That new technology won't pay for itself...

I do wonder though, is there a threshold where corporate lowers their cost so much that people find it not worth going to private practices anymore? The super rich probably won't care and go to a private clinic, but 90+% of the population will probably choose the much lower cost alternative right?

 

[GypsyHummus]

So dentists make about 120-150K as an associate. Even if you have 500K in student loans, the investment is still fine. Not great by any means, but will still make you out ahead.

Lets say you take home 100K/Year. If you live off of 40K/year and throw the rest at the debt, you will be debt free in ten years. Considering people usually practice for around 30-40 years, you still have time to save for retirement, buy a nice house after the debt is paid off.

I feel sorry for the Pharmacists and Optometrists. They have high debt burndens (300K) but they are so saturated right now that nobody can find part time work. Dentists will always be in high demand.

Plus, you guys only work like 3 days a week. Docs work like 60-80 hours/week, why yall complaining?

 

[753698]

Plus, you guys only work like 3 days a week. Docs work like 60-80 hours/week, why yall complaining?

We're complaining because nobody wants to go through 8+ years of intensive education to live on 40k a year.
If that was the case I would just go flip some burgers!

I also never understood why everything financially is aimed towards retirement. It's good to have money set aside for when you retire, but I don't want to be the richest man in the grave. I would rather have income to spend and enjoy life while I can. Life is short, might as well make the most of it.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Flipping burgers wont make you 40K/year, more like 20K if you are lucky. If you were to get into management however, that could yield some good results. I have heard of McDonald managers making six figures at busy places.

And you need to save for retirement because you never know when you are going to need the money. What happens if you get in an accident and lose fine motor control of your hand and cant work? Goodness knows social security will be bankrupt in like the next 5 years, so we wont see any of that money. Its basically just an extra tax at this point.

We're complaining because nobody wants to go through 8+ years of intensive education to live on 40k a year.
If that was the case I would just go flip some burgers!

I also never understood why everything financially is aimed towards retirement. It's good to have money set aside for when you retire, but I don't want to be the richest man in the grave. I would rather have income to spend and enjoy life while I can. Life is short, might as well make the most of it.

 

[schmoob]

I also never understood why everything financially is aimed towards retirement. It's good to have money set aside for when you retire, but I don't want to be the richest man in the grave. I would rather have income to spend and enjoy life while I can. Life is short, might as well make the most of it.

Because the power of compound interest is not to be taken lightly.
And retirement =/= death!