Is medical school just for rich kids?

[orthogenes]

Not being able to get a SSN would certainly be a big issue -- Can anyone (@orthogenes or @jinglemingle ) link to any reliable sources that indicate this problem is real and difficult to surmount? I did a quick Google on it and came away empty-handed.

Like I mentioned before, I am seriously lacking in data (I almost didn't post). My uncle (by marriage) is Native American and my aunt works on his reservation as a teacher. All my knowledge on this subject is through her. Sorry.

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[orthogenes]

Tangentially related-- if you can't get border patrol to believe you're a documented citizen it may also lead to problems with social security.
Edit: it ate my link http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/geoimlj16&div=43&id=&page=

 

[Shams al Deen]

Wow a lot of hate for this article, don't really see why. She doesn't have the same opportunities as I do, and I feel for her. Not sure what's causing the outrage against the lady. Ok, she was pessimistic and dramatic in her tone...big deal, it made the article more interesting. Bottomline, if she was white then she would have a much easier time fulfilling her dream to become a doctor. My theory is that many of us simply do not want face that, so we instead say that she is weak or that she doesn't exist or that she is a cry-baby etc. So we invent these other narratives in our head so that we don't have to face the fact that we are privileged and she is kinda getting screwed over.

 

[LizzyM]

Interesting link. The situation with the O' odham citizenship is that the tribal lands are in the US and Mexico. Members of the tribe who can't prove they were born in the US, or who were born in Mexico, can't obtain proof of US citizenship. Those born in Mexico are not US citizens although they are members of the tribe.

Until the mid-1980s births were not recorded by this tribe but remembered by tribal elders. Therefore it would seem that college age members of the tribe have birth certificates and SS#s unless they were born in Mexico.

Curiously, this bill seems to be a perennial in Congress but never gets anywhere because it is so closely tied to immigration.

 

[DokterMom]

Most of our issues are never covered by the media - like we had a suicide epidemic last week (chain of suicides). No one covered it. Then you have to Google the right words for the right tribes, which most non-Indians don't know how to Google.

E.g. if you google "Tohono O'Odham" with other search terms you get "About a third of the nation’s 24,000 enrolled members born in the United States don’t have paperwork needed to prove citizenship." See this link here: http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue2/2001/11/23/81209-o-odham-citizenship-bid-wins-100-backers/ which says "Without birth certificates, some cannot obtain Social Security numbers." That was in 2001. The problem is even worse after 9-11. But of course I am a troll according to LizzyM, so if you want to catch me, do so on http://www.reddit.com/r/premed because I don't want to be posting here again, so please don't bait me to post here again.

I'm not baiting you @jinglemingle -- but rather honestly seeking to understand, and indeed, verify that a problem exists rather than fall for the type of 'internet outrage du jour' that so often happens.

According to Wikipedia, the Tohono O'odham situation seems to be a bit unusual in that tribal lands span the US/Mexico border, and only the US-born members would be eligible for US Citizenship, thereby complicating the process. It's even more discouraging because members of tribes whose tribal lands spanned the US/Canada border generally received dual citizenship, but those along the US/Mexico border did not; and with the problems of illegal immigration from Mexico, the issue is politically sensitive. Sounds like 'racism as usual' to me...

 

[jinglemingle]

the Tohono O'odham situation seems to be a bit unusual

It's not just the Tohono O'odham. We have a similar situation in many tribes. E.g. in many remote Alaskan Indian villages. And elsewhere in Indian country. The federal government does not even know where the Indian reservations are - their maps have missed entire reservations. When the federal government misses entire Indian reservations, you can imagine how individual Indians fall through the cracks.

 

[Flashfan]

First of all, get over your issues with LizzyM- we love her. Secondly, make it a tribal priority to get social security number assistance. Get your Congressman involved.
Finally, working for a tribe though IHS would repay loans, so a huge debt is not really an issue if the true goal is to work with a tribe.
I work for voting rights in my state, so I understand the difficulties with getting documentation, but political pressure makes a huge difference. Baptismal records, early school records, etc have been used. In truth because it is sometime eadier to get a passport than a state id, that has been used in my state. Seriously, why not mobilize?

 

[jinglemingle]

> Get your Congressman involved....Seriously, why not mobilize?

Did you read this? http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue2/2001/11/23/81209-o-odham-citizenship-bid-wins-100-backers/
They got 100 congressmen, not just "your" solo congressman.

Finally, working for a tribe though IHS would repay loans, so a huge debt is not really an issue if the true goal is to work with a tribe.

I really fail to understand the lack of sympathy by people on this forum. Answer me - how will someone like Sage get a loan in the first place without a SSN??

 

[jinglemingle]

Wow a lot of hate for this article, don't really see why. She doesn't have the same opportunities as I do, and I feel for her. Not sure what's causing the outrage against the lady. Ok, she was pessimistic and dramatic in her tone...big deal, it made the article more interesting. Bottomline, if she was white then she would have a much easier time fulfilling her dream to become a doctor. My theory is that many of us simply do not want face that, so we instead say that she is weak or that she doesn't exist or that she is a cry-baby etc. So we invent these other narratives in our head so that we don't have to face the fact that we are privileged and she is kinda getting screwed over.

Amen! I shudder to think what kind of people are becoming doctors.

 

[jinglemingle]

I'd say the majority of the time that's the truth. It's mostly for those who are privileged, from affluent backgrounds, can just autopilot through school/mcat, and have never seen real adversity in their lives. ..... You can also tell this pretty easily by their responses to those who actually encounter adversity during the process and little respect for them they have. "Anyone can do what I can do". No they cant you're just bias and short-sighted. When 70% of people aren't getting a 30 or higher on the mcat, it's pretty damn obvious not everyone can. These people can't tell how easy they got it. You really wonder how they're gonna treat patients when they can't take their own personal biases into account in this application process.

I too wonder how people like that will treat poor patients they encounter during their practice. The attitude that prevails here seems to be, "it's YOUR fault you are like this". No sympathy of any kind whatsoever. People on here seem to be way too privileged and they don't even realize their privilege.

 

[mrh125]

I too wonder how people like that will treat poor patients they encounter during their practice. The attitude that prevails here seems to be, "it's YOUR fault you are like this". No sympathy of any kind whatsoever. People on here seem to be way too privileged and they don't even realize their privilege.

Agreed. Not everyone has everything handed to them on a silver plater and can just score well on tests and cram volunteering, research, jobs, mcat, and college into a 4 year mix and do well on all of them. There's a mentality here that "I can succeed so you can succeed" and although that may be seen positively under a cursory look there's a lot of arrogance and generalizing to it. Not everyone comes from the same background as those who say that, has the same talents, or privileges. Not to mention it's also an "I succeeded so there's nothing wrong with the way things are" type attitude, which just turns a blind eye to reality.

It's also frustrating that when one talks about their difficult circumstances and how they shaped the process they're seen as making excuses and those who were privileged and don't have difficult circumstances have less "excuses" (actual explanations for why they're not able to do everything the same way others can). I got sick with the swine flu the week of my mcat and was hospitalized with a 103F fever and even though every day when I got up at 6am for the rest of the week I felt someone shoved a railroad spike through my head I still pushed myself to study 7-8 hrs a day and took the exam instead of running away from difficult circumstances. That's seen as an excuse though, *sigh*. There's so many barriers in this process to the non-privileged, especially with standardized tests because who can afford all the test programs, AAMC FLs, kaplan test, and review books not to mention flying across the country if needed to take the exam.

If I was an ADCOM I'd strongly emphasize an even more holistic approach. If a person doesn't do well on standardized tests or can't afford to travel across the country to a million interviews there should be a way for them to prove they can still be a good doctor. So many of these metrics are just low-hanging fruit for those who are privileged. It's really messed up. I'd also develop more systematic ways to recognize those who have really encountered adversity and give them the benefit of the doubt they need. It will be those doctors who give patients who encounter difficult circumstances the same benefit of the doubt instead of putting them in boxes and making all sorts of crazy assumptions about them and treating them like inferiors.

When you face difficult circumstances like I and others in this thread as well as you probably have there's so much you can't take for granted and value that so many people just don't have. We're the kind of people who can find hope and a positive way out of the blackest abyss.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Agreed. Not everyone has everything handed to them on a silver plater and can just score well on tests and cram volunteering, research, jobs, mcat, and college into a 4 year mix and do well on all of them. There's a mentality here that "I can succeed so you can succeed" and although that may be seen positively under a cursory look there's a lot of arrogance and generalizing to it. Not everyone comes from the same background as those who say that, has the same talents, or privileges. Not to mention it's also an "I succeeded so there's nothing wrong with the way things are" type attitude, which just turns a blind eye to reality.

Although this is a great point, you have to see it from their point of view. People can't relate to something they have never even thought about being possible. Secondly, I assume most of the harsh responses on this thread are from people who are born in the US. If you have family abroad or are an immigrant yourself, then you would know American citizenship is one of the hottest commodities in the world and with that comes extremely harsh rules. "Just get a SSN," or "why don't you just lobby your congressmen" are very naive responses. Until you have dealt with the issue of American citizenship you have no idea how difficult it is. People wait in line 10+ years to get citizenship here (and that's with things working in your favor). Yes, she's whiny as hell and extremely stupid sounding attacking people based on their race, but the issue here is the inability to do anything within your own country.

If I was an ADCOM I'd strongly emphasize an even more holistic approach. If a person doesn't do well on standardized tests or can't afford to travel across the country to a million interviews there should be a way for them to prove they can still be a good doctor. So many of these metrics are just low-hanging fruit for those who are privileged. It's really messed up. I'd also develop more systematic ways to recognize those who have really encountered adversity and give them the benefit of the doubt they need. It will be those doctors who give patients who encounter difficult circumstances the same benefit of the doubt instead of putting them in boxes and making all sorts of crazy assumptions about them and treating them like inferiors.

While this is theoretically nice, it would create an even greater backlash than current URM policies. Why even bother with standardized tests? Should we just all take a pass-fail test and see who can write the best heart-wrenching story? Yes, I agree that numbers do keep out tons of qualified applicants and let in some socially inept people, but I'm not sure having a hyper-holistic approach would do any better at making it more fair.

 

[mrh125]

Although this is a great point, you have to see it from their point of view. People can't relate to something they have never even thought about being possible. Secondly, I assume most of the harsh responses on this thread are from people who are born in the US. If you have family abroad or are an immigrant yourself, then you would know American citizenship is one of the hottest commodities in the world and with that comes extremely harsh rules. "Just get a SSN," or "why don't you just lobby your congressmen" are very naive responses. Until you have dealt with the issue of American citizenship you have no idea how difficult it is. People wait in line 10+ years to get citizenship here (and that's with things working in your favor). Yes, she's whiny as hell and extremely stupid sounding attacking people based on their race, but the issue here is the inability to do anything within your own country.



While this is theoretically nice, it would create an even greater backlash than current URM policies. Why even bother with standardized tests? Should we just all take a pass-fail test and see who can write the best heart-wrenching story? Yes, I agree that numbers do keep out tons of qualified applicants and let in some socially inept people, but I'm not sure having a hyper-holistic approach would do any better at making it more fair.

I really like this post and your point of view about their perspectives make a lot of sense.

What would you suggest doing to equalize the playing field for applicants, especially with regards to standardized tests? I absolutely detest how unforgiving this process is. A person with a 40 mcat and like 1 EC can get into a good medical school, but someone who doesn't perform well for any reason (e.g., can't afford all the expensive resources) and does their best on every other aspect of the application is just often times left out of the running. Every solution I think of isn't much better and there's only so subjective adcoms can be. Aside from URMs I want those from all backgrounds who faced difficult circumstances and struggled to be able to have a chance. URM does provide a level of subjectivity, but it's far too narrow and limiting imo. There are white, asian, indian, or middle easterners who face large amounts of adversity as well.

The amcas also does something that is even more frustrating by claiming that their new mcat can test for compassion and empathy, which is the biggest ****ing joke ever. No compassion and empathy could ever hope to be measured by a standardized test where this only one right or wrong answer based off of some severely limited premises. It disgusts me.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I come from a third world country and have been close to homelessness at different points of my life. You know what never got me ahead in life? Complaining and comparing myself to others. Like little finger said on Game of Thrones, chaos is a ladder. Some of us climb it. Some don't.

 

[darkjedi]

A person with a 40 mcat and like 1 EC can get into a good medical school

100% not true, you really do need to be a whole package. It's quite difficult to make it past the screening process with any gaping holes in your application, whether it's stats, ECs or otherwise. That doesn't mean there isn't leniency towards weaker parts of the application provided that the rest of the application makes up for it. The simple fact of the matter is that there are qualified med students who have both the stats and the ECs that are still turned away simply due to how competitive the process is. There simply is not really any room for people with significant black marks on their applications

 

[DokterMom]

Government bureaucracy sucks. And yes, it's an obstacle that shouldn't be there. (But I can't think of a way to meet the government's legitimate objectives that doesn't involve bureaucracy.)

And yes, standardized testing is deeply flawed, with children of well-educated native English speakers and those who can afford test-prep services having a significant innate advantage. (But I can't think of a better way to provide any level of consistency.)

And clearly, people who have to work to support themselves don't have the discretionary time to spend it volunteering, which puts them at a disadvantage. (Again, how can we correct for this?)

Bottom line -- Life's not fair. I don't say that in a "so, suck it up" tone, but rather as a simple acknowledgement of the facts. Well-meaning people are trying to make the system more accessible to disadvantaged applicants, but it's not easy. Giving preference to URMs with lower MCAT scores and less volunteering rectifies some of these inequities, yet raises the legitimate claim of others.

Anyone got a solution to this?

 

[jinglemingle]

Some individuals in an organization I am part of, the Association of American Indian Premedical Warriors (AAIPW), advocate getting rid of the interview component, the recommendation letters farce and all other farces they call hazing requirements, including getting rid of ALL premed course requirements as well as getting rid of affirmative action. Instead some of these AAIPW members recommend an extremely rigorous standardized entrance examination like in some European countries which seem to produce excellent doctors and select the top x% of applicants in this entrance examination. AND later have these x% of applicants spit into a test tube to analyze the quantum of their "compassion hormone" (oxytocin?) - which will likely eliminate almost all of the empathy-lacking SDN applicants! Entrance exam + oxytocin levels = 100% objectivity and the selection of applicants who have the compassion to help others. Quote from their email - "David Muller, MD, the Dean for Medical Education at Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai rightly points out that pre-med education is fundamentally flawed. He says this is something that the Medical Education community has known and written about for decades but has never acted upon. Furthermore, he says the current pre-med requirements are over 100 years old and are widely considered a hazing process."

 

[el_duderino]

There's a disconnect in this thread between the letter-writer in the OP and the plight of many Native Americans.

 

[darkjedi]

AND later have these x% of applicants spit into a test tube to analyze the quantum of their "compassion hormone" (oxytocin?) - which will likely eliminate almost all of the empathy-lacking SDN applicants! Entrance exam + oxytocin levels = 100% objectivity and the selection of applicants who have the compassion to help others.

wow that is the most ridiculous idea I've heard yet, congrats

 

[Mr Interesting]

Instead some of these AAIPW members recommend an extremely rigorous standardized entrance examination like in some European countries which seem to produce excellent doctors and select the top x% of applicants in this entrance examination. AND later have these x% of applicants spit into a test tube to analyze the quantum of their "compassion hormone" (oxytocin?) - which will likely eliminate almost all of the empathy-lacking SDN applicants! Entrance exam + oxytocin levels = 100% objectivity and the selection of applicants who have the compassion to help others.

Hmm... first of all LOL on the spitting in test tube thing.

Second, wouldn't that hurt Native American's and other URMs more? Academic performance can be influenced by parental incomes. Those raised in poverty generally do worse in school and on standardized testing. Considering the poverty rates for Native Americans in this country, I'm not convinced focusing more standardized exams is the way to solve this issue.
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/american_community_survey_acs/cb13-29.html

 

[jinglemingle]

Hmm... first of all LOL on the spitting in test tube thing.
Second, wouldn't that hurt Native American's and other URMs more?

LOL all you want but selection in the future will involve metrics like brain scans and stuff like that. And affirmative action hurts Natives more. Because those who benefit from affirmative action are whites with a drop of (usually fictitious) Indian blood who are wealthy and who never help Native communities after graduation but the resentment is felt by Natives who do look Indian. If 0.1% of Natives benefit from affirmative action, 99.9% are hurt by it.

 

[styphon]

I really dislike her letters...

Complaining about traveling, complaining about debt, complaining about family medicine pay, complaining about people having an advantage using prep courses, etc.

I had no money for prep courses, yet I bought MCAT books off ebay, self studied and did well. I could not afford to apply to many schools - or travel extensively, so I stuck to schools close to me (thankfully I am on the east coast and a few schools within 6 hour drive). I had no family help or scholarships or trust funds - my med school was paid for by loans *AND* I work family medicine!

 

[Mr Interesting]

LOL all you want but selection in the future will involve metrics like brain scans and stuff like that. And affirmative action hurts Natives more. Because those who benefit from affirmative action are whites with a drop of (usually fictitious) Indian blood who are wealthy and who never help Native communities after graduation but the resentment is felt by Natives who do look Indian. If 0.1% of Natives benefit from affirmative action, 99.9% are hurt by it.

Interesting...

Do you have any evidence to back up these claims? A lot of people complain about wealthy URM's getting in solely because of affirmative action but I have yet to see any evidence of this. Like I said, parental income can influence educational outcomes and academic performance. Wealthy URM's on average tend to do better academically and would likely get in on their own merit. These claims you are making are unfounded. Native Americans who aren't from affluent families would be screwed if admissions was solely based on standardized testing considering the profound effects of poverty on education. Please provide the data that shows the very few Native Americans that do get into medical school don't serve their communities.

 

[jinglemingle]

I really dislike her letters...

Complaining about traveling, complaining about debt, complaining about family medicine pay, complaining about people having an advantage using prep courses, etc. I had no money for prep courses, yet I bought MCAT books off ebay, self studied and did well. I could not afford to apply to many schools - or travel extensively, so I stuck to schools close to me (thankfully I am on the east coast and a few schools within 6 hour drive). I had no family help or scholarships or trust funds - my med school was paid for by loans *AND* I work family medicine!

Is that how you see it? Why don't you see it as difficulties with travel, difficulties with debt, difficulties with family pay, etc? You were within a 6 hour drive - how would you have liked it if you were at a remote Alaskan Native village like so many Indians? Did you have two infants to take care of? And your medical school was paid by loans - she is not eligible for loans because she has no SSN. You work family medicine? I dislike doctors like you who lack compassion and empathy. No wonder people sue doctors constantly and no wonder so many doctors commit suicide!

 

[jinglemingle]

Please provide the data

Data? There is hardly any accurate data - if at all - on Indians. But if you come down to our reservations and live here like we do, you will know who returns here. And we're Indians, not "Native Americans." Here's an e-mail from a full-blood that was in my inbox this week. By the way, Dineh = Navajo in the email below.

QUOTE
Subject: 土生土長的中國人

This morning a Navajo guy in Evanston, IL who had red hair and very
light skin asked me where I am from and what my nationality was. I
told him I am Dineh. Despite being a Navajo citizen, he didn't know
what Dineh was. So I said I am Indian. The guy was offended, told me
he is Navajo and corrected me that the right word is "Native
American." This is coming from a Navajo who didn't know what Dineh
meant. I am glad I didn't use the more technically correct word for
Navajo that my grandma uses!

Now imagine Russia entirely takes over Ukraine and starts calling all
Ukrainians "Native Russians." Or take the example more frequently
given in such contexts. Imagine China takes over Tibet and starts
calling all Tibetans 土生土長的中國人, which means "Native Chinese" in the
Chinese language. Of course Tibetans don't know what 土生土長的中國人 means
because they cannot speak or understand a word of Chinese. But imagine
many Tibetans colonize themselves, lose their own language, marry
Chinese people and start looking and sounding like any other Chinese.
Then when a rare fullblood from Tibet refers to himself as a Tibetan,
she is corrected and told that word is offensive - the right word is
土生土長的中國人.

So my Evanston friend who is receiving this e-mail, don't you "Native
American" me. Don't believe the nonsense that your Northwestern
professors tell you. Ask your professors how appropriate it is to call
Tibetans 土生土長的中國人 (Native Chinese) or to call all Ukrainians "Native
Russians." ...... Incidentally, almost every single white person who has asked me my
nationality or where I am from has asked this question in an
inappropriate way. Here's a dramatized example, so judge for yourself
-
UNQUOTE

 

[Mr Interesting]

And we're Indians, not "Native Americans."

I said Native Americans because she refers to herself as one.

"Lily and I have similar dreams. The difference is that she is from Asia while I’m Native American."

"I have dark skin. I look Native American. Because I am Native American."

"I am non-status Native American so I cannot legally claim a tribe or receive benefits."

 

[lmn]

Data? There is hardly any accurate data - if at all - on Indians. But if you come down to our reservations and live here like we do, you will know who returns here. And we're Indians, not "Native Americans."
UNQUOTE

Oh please, when did you go to the convention of all Native Americans in the US where they decided the correct term was Indians? You are making the very wrong mistake of grouping all Native Americans/Indians together as if they are the same as all Asians or Whites or even Chinese or Russians are the same. Sure the majority of tribes suffer from the similar problems, but that hardly makes all of them the same, so you could at least not act as if every person wants to be called Indian instead of Native American.

 

[The Boatox]

I hope, at least in medical school, people do not have hate towards one another based on where they came from and what their SES is. At the end of the day, we are all here working towards a common goal. I grew up in a rural medically underserved community and throughout my undergrad I worked full time to help support myself financially(parents made ~$20k/year). Would my education have been different if I didn't have to work? Of course. However, I always try to make it a point that a person shouldn't use their past hardship as an excuse, that by some virtue, they are and should be accepted with such appraisal. Medical school is hard to get into. Period. I do believe that the application process and all of its components should be made fair and readily available for all those who choose to apply; however, whining(and quitting) is not the path one should take if they deem it to be unfair.

 

[jinglemingle]

I said Native Americans because she refers to herself as one.
"Lily and I have similar dreams. The difference is that she is from Asia while I’m Native American."
"I have dark skin. I look Native American. Because I am Native American."
"I am non-status Native American so I cannot legally claim a tribe or receive benefits."

Sage told AAIPW that Dr. Pamela Wible thinks the word Indian is offensive and she edited those words from Sage's letter.

 

[ssfire]

I hope, at least in medical school, people do not have hate towards one another based on where they came from and what their SES is. At the end of the day, we are all here working towards a common goal. I grew up in a rural medically underserved community and throughout my undergrad I worked full time to help support myself financially(parents made ~$20k/year). Would my education have been different if I didn't have to work? Of course. However, I always try to make it a point that a person shouldn't use their past hardship as an excuse, that by some virtue, they are and should be accepted with such appraisal. Medical school is hard to get into. Period. I do believe that the application process and all of its components should be made fair and readily available for all those who choose to apply; however, whining(and quitting) is not the path one should take if they deem it to be unfair.

As someone who was in a similar situation, I agree to a certain extent. It is an incredibly difficult process for everyone involved. However, people who grew up in these circumstances do have a more difficult hill to climb, with respect to opportunities etc. A lot of people are criticizing this girl, but I feel sympathetic towards her, especially if it's true she's isn't eligible for an SSN or student loans.

 

[jinglemingle]

A lot of people are criticizing this girl, but I feel sympathetic towards her, especially if it's true she's isn't eligible for an SSN or student loans.

LizzyM primed all that criticism and is the main person at fault here with his initial posts and jumping to the judgment that I am a troll (I learned from Reddit that LizzyM is a guy who is NOT an adcom). I suspect most people are just sucking up to LizzyM because I cannot believe premeds on here are THIS unsympathetic. You will see this phenomenonn on many forums where posters suck up to the forum admin.

 

[ssfire]

LizzyM primed all that criticism and is the main person at fault here with his initial posts and jumping to the judgment that I am a troll (I learned from Reddit that LizzyM is a guy). I suspect most people are just sucking up to him because I cannot believe premeds on here are THIS unsympathetic.

To be fair though, I think a significant amount of the criticism stems from the manner in which Sage phrased a majority of her complaints. Attacking other races is not the best way to garner sympathy. Then again, considering she currently has little recourse, I can't really blame her for her anger. I hope she can sort this out somehow.

 

[jinglemingle]

Attacking other races is not the best way to garner sympathy. Then again, considering she currently has little recourse, I can't really blame her for her anger. I hope she can sort this out somehow.

Sage certainly wasn't looking for sympathy but that one email was part of the several emails that lobbied to end affirmative action programs. Nor was she too keen on having her letter published. She wasn't attacking other races either, just speaking the truth about how affirmative action benefits the wrong kind of people, whether Indians or African Americans. And there's enough published evidence about how those historically wronged as black slaves don't benefit much from affirmative action but children of rich African immigrants benefit from AA (and no, I am not going to google those links for anyone). Affirmative action harms minorities and is a curse on minorities. I hope they end affirmative action programs. Seriously, I am willing to talk and debate and clarify but not here after my experience with the admin LizzyM (who IS the admin). Come down to reddit.com/r/premed if you want to talk.

 

[ssfire]

Sage certainly wasn't looking for sympathy. Nor was she too keen on having her letter published. She wasn't attacking other races either, just speaking the truth about how affirmative action benefits the wrong kind of people, whether Indians or African Americans. And there's enough published evidence about how those historically wronged as black slaves don't benefit much from affirmative action but children of rich African immigrants benefit from AA (and no, I am not going to google those links for anyone). Affirmative action harms minorities and is a curse on minorities. I hope they end affirmative action programs.

Really? Did Pamela Wible press for publication? Honestly, I can't speak to the benefits/disadvantages of affirmative action policies on Native Americans. However, I respectfully disagree that AA is a curse on all minorities, African Americans especially.

 

[Mr Interesting]

You want to do away with affirmative action but look at some of your past quotes:

Yeah I have considered Texas but dismissed it. I am a full-blood Indian (Oglala Lakota tribe). Texas is a state where affirmative action is illegal. So despite being a full-blood Indian, Texas residency won't do me any good because I won't get Indian preference in Texas as affirmative action is illegal there.

On the other hand, if I do enroll with the Makwa Sahgaiehcan First Nation (Cree Indians), then I become attractive to many Canadian medical schools but the US medical schools may not consider me to be Indian.

 

[Lamel]

Is that how you see it? Why don't you see it as difficulties with travel, difficulties with debt, difficulties with family pay, etc? You were within a 6 hour drive - how would you have liked it if you were at a remote Alaskan Native village like so many Indians? Did you have two infants to take care of? And your medical school was paid by loans - she is not eligible for loans because she has no SSN. You work family medicine? I dislike doctors like you who lack compassion and empathy. No wonder people sue doctors constantly and no wonder so many doctors commit suicide!

What.

 

[Mr Interesting]

Personally, I do believe there is a story here. However, this was poorly written. Attacking other races, especially other URM's who are likely to sympathized more with her is not the way to do it. The vast majority of African American med students do not have servants and multiple private planes I assure you. Sure, some may come from wealthy families but without knowing what their application looked like how can you or Sage know if they actually benefited from affirmative action at all?

 

[DokterMom]

LizzyM primed all that criticism and is the main person at fault here with his initial posts and jumping to the judgment that I am a troll (I learned from Reddit that LizzyM is a guy who is NOT an adcom). I suspect most people are just sucking up to LizzyM because I cannot believe premeds on here are THIS unsympathetic. You will see this phenomenonn on many forums where posters suck up to the forum admin.

Not everything you read on the Internet is true... Some web sites are significantly more reliable than others, and the level of 'outrage' expressed is generally inversely correlated with the level of factual accuracy.

 

[raiderette]

LizzyM primed all that criticism and is the main person at fault here with his initial posts and jumping to the judgment that I am a troll (I learned from Reddit that LizzyM is a guy who is NOT an adcom). I suspect most people are just sucking up to LizzyM because I cannot believe premeds on here are THIS unsympathetic. You will see this phenomenonn on many forums where posters suck up to the forum admin.

Unlike Reddit, this site makes the adcoms send additional verification that they are adcoms. LizzyM has been a wonderful resource for years.
Most of us are not unsympathetic to the plight of URMs, and would probably support an effort to get this Sage person a Social Security number, etc. Unfortunately, the original article makes the person come off as less than sympathetic.

 

[el_duderino]

I learned from Reddit

Some of the most dangerous words ever spoken.

 

[jinglemingle]

You want to do away with affirmative action but look at some of your past quotes:

You are missing the point. AA may help a very small fraction of Indians but hurts the rest.

 

[jinglemingle]

Not everything you read on the Internet is true...

I agree. Which is why you should be skeptical of LizzyM's claim to be an adcom.

 

[jinglemingle]

Some of the most dangerous words ever spoken.

Check out http://www.reddit.com/r/medicalschool, http://www.reddit.com/r/medicine or http://www.reddit.com/r/medicalpirates. You WILL learn a lot. It's much better than undergraduates advising undergraduates like here. Anyway I am mad because LizzyM tried to suppress a minority voice like mine by calling me a troll. I am a troll LizzyM? Well, people on Reddit are calling LizzyM a FRAUD. See http://www.reddit.com/r/premed/comments/28x5gx/lizzym/

Anyway, I am http://www.reddit.com/user/jinglemingle if any of you have any more questions.

 

[jinglemingle]

Unlike Reddit, this site makes the adcoms send additional verification that they are adcoms.

LizzyM is THE admin here. She is not an adcom. Check out this thread http://www.reddit.com/r/premed/comments/28x5gx/lizzym/ or this one http://www.reddit.com/r/premed/comments/28z9oj/2012_analysis_by_georgia_tech_students_after/ or this comment by a Redditer: "After she knew my situation, LizzyM told me - representing herself as an adcom - that BS-MD admission is much, much harder than getting admitted to the MD program after the BS degree. Almost impossible to get in, she wrote to me in a personal message. However, in my state, out of the 46 people who applied for the BS-MD program, 33 were accepted into the BS-MD program and as a URM I was almost certain of getting admitted, especially given my grades and SAT scores. But I believed LizzyM and never applied to the BS-MD, so I am suing SDN and wanting to bring together others who are interested in suing SDN and other vested interests who train for the MCAT who maliciously discourage students from applying to the BS-MD programs. If people don't apply to the BS-MD programs, they make more money."

Or this comment by a Redditor: "Organizations like SDN make it socially inefficient for everyone. A few years ago, the average person applied only to 3 or 4 medical schools. Because of SDN-type organizations, people apply to several medical schools these days making this an inefficient and frustrating process for everyone."

Or this one - "Oftentimes, cases are not fought to win but to send a message that some types of behavior are unacceptable. And in a lawsuit, they will have to reveal the identity of LizzyM which will show that she is not an adcom. BTW, I am NOT interested in suing anyone but I know 3 kids who are, 59grj48 being one of them."

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Oops, double post.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Look... this is an online forum. Would you take all the advice you get on another anonymous site... like 4chan/reddit... without a grain of salt?! I, and many others, have had good and correct advice on SDN. Even if these theories are anything other than a conspiracy... who cares?

Nobody is required or obligated to use SDN.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

I should give up trying to post on my phone... second double post when trying to edit.

 

[jinglemingle]

who cares?

You SHOULD care! Read this comment by a Redditor: "Organizations like SDN make it socially inefficient for everyone. A few years ago, the average person applied only to 3 or 4 medical schools. Because of SDN-type organizations, people apply to several medical schools these days making this an inefficient and frustrating process for everyone."

 

[SpartanWolverine]

You SHOULD care! Read this comment by a Redditor: "Organizations like SDN make it socially inefficient for everyone. A few years ago, the average person applied only to 3 or 4 medical schools. Because of SDN-type organizations, people apply to several medical schools these days making this an inefficient and frustrating process for everyone."

Meh. I think centralized applications are more to blame for the rising number of school designations per student.

 

[jinglemingle]

Meh. I think centralized applications are more to blame for the rising number of school designations per student.

I disagree. Read this Reddit comment by a medical student - "I would really encourage someone to sue SDN so that the truth comes out. Everyone will know that LizzyM is not an adcom. SDN - together with Kaplan, PR and the other test prep agencies - are making the admission process very frustrating for everyone. That's how they make money of course. But life is hell for the rest. In medical school, we have the same problem at the USMLE..."