JaWWs WW - Summer SWWashers Series #1 - GAME THREAD

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fauna said:
didn’t know if i would get away with it but i figured it would be bad for either you or for AM
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I even said somewhere in dead chat that it also would have brought @WildZoo great joy to finally misyeet me. That was her original plan in her first sweep, but I assume she will take this outcome just as well 😛
 
GoSpursGo said:
It was a hard game for the village where none of the mech swung in the village favor, and I don't think anyone who was playing at MYLO should feel bad about the outcome.

I do think the vig shot was always going to be a huge swing--it was either going to reduce the number of allowable misyeets by one, or eliminate half of the wolves. I say it not to criticize the design, nor to blame katie for missing with the vig (which is always a tough responsibility), but just to acknowledge that in this small setup the vig was kind of set up to create a possible runaway in either direction.

Of course the wolves still had to have excellent play to capitalize on this, and they deserve full credit for having only TWO vote on a wolf at EOD on any day throughout the entire game. Having D1 v/v/v wagons and D2 v/v/neutral wagons is wild work! :claps:
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Oh yeah, for certain, deep respect for @WildZoo and @fauna for the perfect victory. I just had a very different perspective of how village was voting and got disappointed. I'll remember next time to ensure to pare it down to two wagons maximum, even if I think one is a wolf vanity vote. I just didn't think I could get anyone on Dubz first so tried for the easier wagon. Huge mistake. I need to be bolder next time.
 
Animal Midwife said:
Oh yeah, for certain, deep respect for @WildZoo and @fauna for the perfect victory. I just had a very different perspective of how village was voting and got disappointed. I'll remember next time to ensure to pare it down to two wagons maximum, even if I think one is a wolf vanity vote. I just didn't think I could get anyone on Dubz first so tried for the easier wagon. Huge mistake. I need to be bolder next time.
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I know it's hard when essentially you had to make the final decision. I think you made a reasonable call based on the information you had available to you, and FWIW the entire dead chat came to the same conclusion that you did based on the lack of hammer. It was of course conceivable that Clem wasn't a wolf, but I don't think any of us would have done anything differently than you did, and regardless I don't think dubZ/fauna was a combination any of us were considering by the end of the game.
 
GoSpursGo said:
It was a hard game for the village where none of the mech swung in the village favor, and I don't think anyone who was playing at MYLO should feel bad about the outcome.

I do think the vig shot was always going to be a huge swing--it was either going to reduce the number of allowable misyeets by one, or eliminate half of the wolves. I say it not to criticize the design, nor to blame katie for missing with the vig (which is always a tough responsibility), but just to acknowledge that in this small setup the vig was kind of set up to create a possible runaway in either direction.

Of course the wolves still had to have excellent play to capitalize on this, and they deserve full credit for having only TWO votes on a wolf at EOD on any day throughout the entire game. Having D1 v/v/v wagons and D2 v/v/neutral wagons is wild work! :claps:
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It was hard to prepare for worst-case for either wolf or village, since we had only 2 wolves and a recent track record of d1/2 scum yeets; the idea of the vig (and the other "big" PRs like the PGO and the gov) was to rebalance if either side got knocked down too quick, since there was a very real possibility of losing a wolf in the first day/night cycle (which we almost did N1 twice).
Unfortunately it was village that got whacked so quickly that the wolves may as well have been vanilla 😅
 
GoSpursGo said:
I know it's hard when essentially you had to make the final decision. I think you made a reasonable call based on the information you had available to you, and FWIW the entire dead chat came to the same conclusion that you did based on the lack of hammer. It was of course conceivable that Clem wasn't a wolf, but I don't think any of us would have done anything differently than you did, and regardless I don't think dubZ/fauna was a combination any of us were considering by the end of the game.
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Thank you for the support. I do appreciate it. I just need to figure out where specifically it could have prevented. Because I do still believe we could have won, but I need better maj analysis.
 
apoptosis09 said:
It was hard to prepare for worst-case for either wolf or village, since we had only 2 wolves and a recent track record of d1/2 scum yeets; the idea of the vig (and the other "big" PRs like the PGO and the gov) was to rebalance if either side got knocked down too quick, since there was a very real possibility of losing a wolf in the first day/night cycle (which we almost did N1 twice).
Unfortunately it was village that got whacked so quickly that the wolves may as well have been vanilla 😅
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Oh no worries, I totally get it--I truly mean what I said, not intended as a criticism of game design. Just saying that the way things broke it was a hard game for the village, and so I don't think anyone should beat themselves up for the L.

Wonderful game, thanks to you, @reddeadrobin and @kaydubs for running a great game!
 
GoSpursGo said:
Oh no worries, I totally get it--I truly mean what I said, not intended as a criticism of game design. Just saying that the way things broke it was a hard game for the village, and so I don't think anyone should beat themselves up for the L.
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Agreed, every side played well to their win con!
GoSpursGo said:
Wonderful game, thanks to you, @reddeadrobin and @kaydubs for running a great game!
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Also agreed thank you to rdr for the excellent flavor and kaydubs for her invaluable wisdom ❤️
 
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@Clem J Can you please explain the "blocked with multiple wolves alive = >rand town" to me? Like I've always seen it as a "they did not kill last night but overall wolf odds remain the same." I'm sorry I thought you were lying over it. I just genuinely don't understand the mechanical conclusion.
 
Animal Midwife said:
@Clem J Can you please explain the "blocked with multiple wolves alive = >rand town" to me? Like I've always seen it as a "they did not kill last night but overall wolf odds remain the same." I'm sorry I thought you were lying over it. I just genuinely don't understand the mechanical conclusion.
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Yeah when I get home I can
 
dubz was willing to bus fauna too if it was going to teeter that way, and i tried to get that started because yeetin fauna first would have caused us to look deeper into pairs and we might have had a flighting chance.

too many clashing personalities, so i will be abstaining from joining games where the chance of this happening again are high.
 
Clem J said:
Ahem
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I was always dying before Dubz in your POE though. Especially after SAR blocked her (which I know you'll be explaining soon). Without the IC, that would have been game.

I need to find her (or any partners) before we get to sweep marvolo because that's where trouble starts. So what I'm saying is Dubz sticking out before she's mechanically outted because I distinctly remember using several of my posts to insist she was still POE.

Also, I said this in deadchat but can I ask why you wanted me to hammer you (immediately ending the game) instead of joining you on Dubz who I was also deeply distrusting?

I'm trying to correct as many errors/miscommunications as possible so this doesn't ever happen again.
 
Animal Midwife said:
I was always dying before Dubz in your POE though. Especially after SAR blocked her (which I know you'll be explaining soon). Without the IC, that would have been game.

I need to find her (or any partners) before we get to sweep marvolo because that's where trouble starts. So what I'm saying is Dubz sticking out before she's mechanically outted because I distinctly remember using several of my posts to insist she was still POE.

Also, I said this in deadchat but can I ask why you wanted me to hammer you (immediately ending the game) instead of joining you on Dubz who I was also deeply distrusting?

I'm trying to correct as many errors/miscommunications as possible so this doesn't ever happen again.
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Until the block you weren't even in my poe--when I did my work last night I got to dubz and fauna, I only swapped tou and dubz after the block claim, and I ended up back at the right answer after your claim.

I feel pretty fine with that tbh
 
Animal Midwife said:
I was always dying before Dubz in your POE though. Especially after SAR blocked her (which I know you'll be explaining soon). Without the IC, that would have been game.

I need to find her (or any partners) before we get to sweep marvolo because that's where trouble starts. So what I'm saying is Dubz sticking out before she's mechanically outted because I distinctly remember using several of my posts to insist she was still POE.

Also, I said this in deadchat but can I ask why you wanted me to hammer you (immediately ending the game) instead of joining you on Dubz who I was also deeply distrusting?

I'm trying to correct as many errors/miscommunications as possible so this doesn't ever happen again.
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I didn't *want* you to hammer, I figured you might as well cause the game was functionally over at that point. You were locked onto me as far as I could tell, vampy probably would've joined us on dubz if you had somehow reconsidered, but sar was out of thread so best we could do was a tie. I knew nothing I was capable of putting out at that time could convince you, so I figured maybe trying to make it clear I wasn't fighting and wasn't in anti-spew was a reasonable last resort. It didn't work obviously but I didn't really expect it to, the game was lost fmpov once we started clashing on mech
 
Clem J said:
I didn't *want* you to hammer, I figured you might as well cause the game was functionally over at that point. You were locked onto me as far as I could tell, vampy probably would've joined us on dubz if you had somehow reconsidered, but sar was out of thread so best we could do was a tie. I knew nothing I was capable of putting out at that time could convince you, so I figured maybe trying to make it clear I wasn't fighting and wasn't in anti-spew was a reasonable last resort. It didn't work obviously but I didn't really expect it to, the game was lost fmpov once we started clashing on mech
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Well, not necessarily. I was once sold on Spurs but changed before N1 ended. Similar happened with vampy. Those are two people I've had trouble reading in the past. So I like to think maybe I could have found you. I can't say for certain but I did let the clock run down to make sure everything was said that was wanted to be said. I erroneously assumed you weren't pushing me onto Dubz because you didn't want her to go over first with you already wagoned.

Hopefully this doesn't happen again but I'd like to let you know I'm down to talk with anyone, no matter how deep the POE, even if it's to challenge my reads (as long as it's sans patronization because, unfortunately, I still react negatively by shutting down compromise after that. I am currently working on diffusing rather than escalating this year though). Highschool is my largest success regarding that. I just felt like I had to vote you given combination of the lack of hammer and delay between your Dubz vote. I think we can team up well in the future but I really need any new mechanical theories spelled out to me because I freeze up if I perceive a contradiction.
 
Yeah I don't mean it like...you're incapable of reevaluating...I just knew I wasn't going to be able to give you what you needed to reevaluate, if that makes sense? It's not meant as a shot at you or a failure on your part, it's just a gamestate read based on knowing what you'd need reasonably well and knowing both myself and the time/energy I had available to make that appeal in, and that I just didn't have enough of either to do it
 
Ok, so here's the thing about someone being blocked with multiple mafia alive (I'm very tired so I will try to make this as coherent as I can, but no promises)

Yes, it does just mean "x didn't carry the kill on night y"

But that still lowers the chance they're mafia

The more nights there are the less that chance is lowered, but it is still lowered

Here's an example that maybe helps make it clearer (or makes it more confusing, ymmv):

Assume a game where one player is randomly blocked at night and it's announced at day break, no other roles or abilities or mechanics (so perfect information on who was blocked), and a successful kill on N1

Day 2, 8 town and 2 scum alive--20% chance for a given player to be scum, 80% to be town

Player A was blocked on n1

There are two scum slots, let's call them X and Y, we'll say that Y carried the kill

We know player A can't be scum slot Y because there was a successful NK--so out of 9 possible roles for them to be (8 town, 1 scum), 88.9% are town

Everyone else can be scum slot X or scum slot Y, they have 10 possible roles out of which 80% are town


So it doesn't clear, but it does increase the base chances the blocked player is town. This is the very simplest version of the math involved, and it gets more complicated with more nights involved, but I'm cribbing the work of people who are much smarter with these things than I am and spent a ton of time figuring this stuff out.

So this is why I was so confused there was so little interrogation of the dubz SR to me after she was jailed, because to me that isn't a clear but it does mean the bar for a social read to clear is that much higher and that seemed to be getting ignored to me.

This is also different than X Files because a redirect is different than a block, and that game was much higher mech iirc than this one (an assumption I should've done a better job laying out, frankly). If memory serves I was also an alien that game and not incentivized to tell the truth lol

I don't remember this coming up in Casino but I'm sure I'm just forgetting it
 
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Clem J said:
Ok, so here's the thing about someone being blocked with multiple mafia alive (I'm very tired so I will try to make this as coherent as I can, but no promises)

Yes, it does just mean "x didn't carry the kill on night y"

But that still lowers the chance they're mafia

The more nights there are the less that chance is lowered, but it is still lowered

Here's an example that maybe helps make it clearer (or makes it more confusing, ymmv):

Assume a game where one player is randomly blocked at night and it's announced at day break, no other roles or abilities or mechanics (so perfect information on who was blocked), and a successful kill on N1

Day 2, 8 town and 2 scum alive--20% chance for a given player to be scum, 80% to be town

Player A was blocked on n1

There are two scum slots, let's call them X and Y, we'll say that Y carried the kill

We know player A can't be scum slot Y because there was a successful NK--so out of 9 possible roles for them to be (8 town, 1 scum), 88.9% are town

Everyone else can be scum slot X or scum slot Y, they have 10 possible roles out of which 80% are town


So it doesn't clear, but it does increase the base chances the blocked player is town. This is the very simplest version of the math involved, and it gets more complicated with more nights involved, but I'm cribbing the work of people who are much smarter with these things than I am and spent a ton of time figuring this stuff out.

So this is why I was so confused there was so little interrogation of the dubz SR to me after she was jailed, because to me that isn't a clear but it does mean the bar for a social read to clear is that much higher and that seemed to be getting ignored to me.

This is also different than X Files because a redirect is different than a block, and that game was much higher mech iirc than this one (an assumption I should've done a better job laying out, frankly). If memory serves I was also an alien that game and not incentivized to tell the truth lol

I don't remember this coming up in Casino but I'm sure I'm just forgetting it
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I think I'm only capable of understanding piano math but thank you for typing this out anyways!
 
Ironically if there wasn't a jail keep (an objectively great role for town to have) we had a great chance of winning the game, fmpov the tipping point was me and AM losing each other over the mech. AM had an IC in her pocket that put me back on track but I didn't have anything to get her out of it, RIP
 
GG everyone, especially to my wolflet who hardly needed me at all, but I am so pleased I got to help her pull this one off :biglove:

No one should feel bad about how the final day went! Like I said above, I'd intentionally paired myself with Clem, and fauna is a natural at wolf theater. I knew I didn't have the time or energy to clear myself this game so it was a lot of working with what we could get with being sketchy and trying to dodge mech.

Thanks for the game mod gods!! it was a lot of fun!

I look forward to reading dead chat later and seeing how many people were calling for my head :laugh:
 
GoSpursGo said:
I even said somewhere in dead chat that it also would have brought @WildZoo great joy to finally misyeet me. That was her original plan in her first sweep, but I assume she will take this outcome just as well 😛
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I was so pissed you died! :laugh:
 
Gg wolves! You finally handed me first choke!

I can be happy that I had the right poe though and was on fauna correctly as well as having a scum read on dubz! Just my POE was one too big and we made the wrong choice as well as the whole second half of yesterday being a wash for me due to the migraine from hell. With one more day it could have easily flipped if mechanics had gone more our way.

I am now going to be mad at dubz for a whole day because I thought we had a pact to not endgame each other and she BROKE IT
 
HRH Queeb SAR said:
Gg wolves! You finally handed me first choke!

I can be happy that I had the right poe though and was on fauna correctly as well as having a scum read on dubz! Just my POE was one too big and we made the wrong choice as well as the whole second half of yesterday being a wash for me due to the migraine from hell. With one more day it could have easily flipped if mechanics had gone more our way.

I am now going to be mad at dubz for a whole day because I thought we had a pact to not endgame each other and she BROKE IT
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Endgame came too fast!!!
 
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