Match Day 2012......????

[JackedUp]

Anyone have any ideas about when Match Day 2012 is? This is borderline ridiculous. All of our med student colleagues are celebrating and our futures are still up in the air. Do any of the class officers have any ideas?

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[ldsrmdude]

Not a class officer, but last I heard was first week in April... Supposedly a week after board results come back. This is pretty ridiculous not knowing an exact date. I am also not a fan of having the match so late in the year. For those who match, it basically gives them 2 months to find somewhere to live and move. For those who scramble (please don't let it be me), it will be even worse. I understand the logic of having the match after 2 offerings of Part 2 boards, and I hope that next year is better with an exact match date, but it is definitely frustrating watching both allopath and osteopath matches happen and us not even knowing when ours is going to happen. The director of the program I am at right now asked me yesterday if I knew the date that match was going to be, and his reaction was similar to mine: "Wait, match is happening in less than a month (supposedly) and you still don't know exactly when? Really?"

I just checked www.casprweb.org and under applicant schedule it has the schedule for last year still up and list match day as March 14th. Imagine that, we would already know.

 

[347932]

Wait a sec. Match day isn't set in stone?

 

[ldsrmdude]

Not as far as I know or have heard. The Casprweb website just says that we will get an email a week before part 2 scores are released and then a week after they are released will be the match. If the day is set in stone, they have done a lousy job of passing that information along since nobody that I have talked to has heard anything.

Edit: Here is from the Casprweb site:

Match results will be available 7 days after the receipt and processing of the scores from the March APMLE Part II retake exam by the CASPR staff. We will send out an email a week before the Match is released.

So I guess I was a little off, but we basically won't know when match happens until results come out. We can guess when results come out since they say 30 days after the test which was March 6th I think. So looks like first or second week of April.

 

[jonwill]

What? I've never heard of this. The match day isn't set? Has this happened before? Is the issue that programs don't want students matching that haven't passed part II?

 

[ldsrmdude]

What? I've never heard of this. The match day isn't set? Has this happened before? Is the issue that programs don't want students matching that haven't passed part II?

I don't think this has happened before. They set it up this way so that all students could have 2 chances to pass boards before the match. This year, if you don't pass boards after the 2nd attempt, you are automatically withdrawn from the match. I like the idea behind it so that those who don't pass boards don't take spots in the match, but it has thrown a monkey wrench in the whole timing of it all. I would think it would be pretty simple for the APMLE folks and the CASPR folks to sit down and figure out when scores are going to come out and then add a few days so that those who don't pass can be taken out and the match date can be finalized, but apparently it is more difficult than I imagine it to be. The other interesting thing they did is that we had to submit our rankings before the results for the first offering of boards in January came out, so we have all had our rankings in for a month and a half now and it will be over 2 months between the time we put rankings in and when the match actually happens when it is all said and done.

 

[air bud]

I have talked with someone who is involved in the student side of things related to match (yeah i know, i know a guy who knows a guy...) and they are really frustrated with how things are playing out this year and are going to try to not let it happen again. It must really suck, hopefully it will be fixed next year when i match (hopefully?)

 

[347932]

That is truly absurd.

I suggest all your APMSA reps get together and have EVERYONE sign a petition against this.

You need to know! I can't possibly imagine how much stress this causes for the collective. Oy.

 

[dtrack22]

This should be a one time thing as this is the first year where two offerings are given and scored prior to the Match. I also know a guy who knows a guy who is trying to find someone who knows the answer (assuming AACPM has an official date at least in their minds) to this question this weekend.

 

[malleolusman]

Agreed, it's pretty ridiculous and with better planning it could have been avoided. They have been doing this for how long?

Additionally, this really hampers international students chances for being sponsored by a program and beginning work. 2 months to process visas etc etc is not enough time. This will result in a situation where they will likely begin residency late and finish later as well. Something to think about.

 

[347932]

Additionally, this really hampers international students chances for being sponsored by a program and beginning work. 2 months to process visas etc etc is not enough time. This will result in a situation where they will likely begin residency late and finish later as well. Something to think about.

Not so much. International students on Student Visas can extend their student visa under the OPT (Optional Practical Training) stream. You don't need "approval". You just submit the paperwork and can start as soon as your program starts.The OPT extends the Student Visas for one year, which gets you into the program, and then you have to be on the ball to get your H1-B1 app ready to go and submitted to avoid the cap for the following year. A good attorney will guide you but charge you a bunch to give you this information and get the OPT going. Your school can help you with the OPT, but the H1-B1 is on you and you have to pay for it. The rate to get the H1-B1 going through an attorney is about $3K-$5K.

I posted a whole thread about this somewhere else on the forums. Can't find the link.

 

[jdikis]

The way the match is set up this year rewards students who failed Part II boards and penalizes those who passed. Those who failed on the first attempt are given two chances to pass before the match process is run. This really hurts those who passed, as they have a mere 2.5 months to find a place to live, move, and begin residency orientation.
I went ahead and got on wait lists at apartment buildings back in February. Those who did not may end up having a hard time finding a good place to live.
The match results should be released in March (as they have been in the past). The initial problem of having people match that had failed Part II boards (only to then be removed from the match) was fixed by moving them to January.
Moving boards to Jan. was a fantastic move, however penalizing those who passed on the first attempt is not. Extremely frustrating.

 

[347932]

Why give two tries to pass? I don't get it.

I understand the whole move it back to January thing, but is it because some people haven't had the courses that are covered by the boards yet, so they had to give two shots? Is that it?

 

[ldsrmdude]

Why give two tries to pass? I don't get it.

I understand the whole move it back to January thing, but is it because some people haven't had the courses that are covered by the boards yet, so they had to give two shots? Is that it?

I think Barry hadn't had some of the classes yet, which is why their pass rate was low. But I think the real reason was just so that everyone would have 2 chances before being automatically withdrawn from match. Past years if a graduating student didn't pass the first time, they weren't withdrawn, so some students matched who hadn't passed boards yet. That left residencies and students in a tough spot. What should a program do if they matched with a student who didn't pass boards on their first try? Drop them and scramble for another student while there are still several applicants in the pool, or wait and hold out hope that they pass the 2nd time around, knowing that if they don't you are out of luck and will have to choose from the few remaining applicants who had been passed over for the most part of the scramble? If that's why brought this about, I can understand, but I would have preferred to either have the first attempt in Dec or something like that and still have 2 attempts before match without having to push the date back, or just give everyone 1 try before they are withdrawn from the match. After all, we are about to become doctors. The stakes should be high at this point.

 

[jonwill]

Yea, that happened my year. I had a couple classmates who matched at programs and then didn't pass part II. They ended up having to scramble to NY and I'm sure those programs had to try and find someone else to take the spot which is unnerving when your probably mostly considering students who never rotated through the program and you don't know. So it does put everyone in a tough spot. In the end, I agree with you. The stakes should be high and I don't think there is a perfect way to do it. I didn't think the old way was bad.

 

[hematosis]

this can only get more complicated once the board adds the part 2 cs test.

 

[347932]

... I think this is the step in the right direction so the profession stops looking ridiculous.

Errrr, I don't think any other medical profession gives a crap about whether their students can't pass a standardized examination. Fail it...oh well...try again next year and suffer. It happens in allopathic medicine all the time. They DON'T whine about it. Getting two chances like this in any other field is unheard of.

 

[347932]

Errr MD/DO students have a lot more options if they fail their board exams. So they wait a year and take it again. They pass the next time around and land in a non-competitive residency program somewhere. Pod students don't have that luxury.

Sure they do. They may not get THE program, but if their stats are good throughout school and they flub the exam, they can still be competitive to get a residency.

If MD/DO students score low but still pass and don't land the residency program of their choice they can do a transitional year somewhere, apply again next year and still land in their first choice residency specialty program. If not then they end up in their 2nd or 3rd choice residency specialty program. Happens all the time.

Actually it doesn't. You'd be surprised how many MD students end up SOL.

Pod student fails their board exam and loses their residency they are screwed. The shortage severely hurts their chances of matching in the next cycle. MD/DO students don't have a shortage to deal with. There are always spots open in the undersirable med specialties or family practice somewhere.

So someone spends four years trying to score an anesthesia residency, has no interest in becoming a pediatrician, fails the boards the first time around and ends up in a Peds residency because that's the way the dice roll. THAT happens all the time. You think these people are happy because they can still make a living. They aren't. I know a few.

The grass isn't greener on the other side folks, regardless of how you spin it.

 

[347932]

You can quote me this anecdotal crap all you want but it still doesn't change the fact a pod student who doesn't match the first time has a significantly lower chance of matching the next time. Due to our SHORTAGE which doesn't exist in MD/DO land.

MD/DO have options. Pods don't.

MD/DO still get a job at the end of the day. Pods don't.

Would you make this argument to all the Barry students who got screwed on their part 2 exam because they didn't even learn all the courses tested on the exam? What about them? You think that's right?

I say let them take the test twice if it keeps them eligible for a residency. It serves them and the profession better.

I'm not going to argue with you.

I disagree with you, plain and simple. For many reasons.

 

[JackedUp]

I agree with Ankle Breaker for the most part. We do have less options and taking the test a second time is a way to minimize the residency shortage problem.However, Kidsfeet makes a good point. I think podiatry babies too many people and in general more of a cut-throat approach is necessary. One of the attendings at one of my externships said it best "What percentage of your classmates would you allow to do surgery on you?" There is an enormous disparity between the top podiatry students and the bottom. Top podiatry students can compete with any medical student in the country and the bottom students cannot name all the bones in thee foot. Its the truth. Not really sure what the solution is though.

In any case the reason I started this thread was specifically to see if anyone has insider info on Match day 2012.

 

[ldsrmdude]

I thought the whole point of adding the second date was to decrease the amount of students not getting a residency. Correct? If a student failed the first time then they still have the chance to pass the next time around and keep their residency. I understand it sucks for the students who passed on their first try and are now just waiting around but I think this is the step in the right direction so the profession stops looking ridiculous. Whether its students or the leaders of this profession...everyone has great ideas but not everyone is willing to sacrifice for the greater good of the profession when they are implemented. That's why people piss and moan so much in podiatry or at least it seems like it to me.

This isn't a specific attack on anyone in this thread, I'm just speaking my mind as a current student. I understand its frustrating not to have matched yet. I probably will be frustrated too when I'm at that point in my career. I still think this change is worth keeping though. Any chance we can decrease the amount of our students not getting a residency makes the profession as a whole look better. Other than this profession not seeming very appealing to quality students, it's possible quality students don't want to risk going into a profession where there is a possibility they may not match after its all said and done.

I think that this change could be one that is worth keeping too, especially if they get the problems worked out with it. I'm not opposed to people having 2 chances to pass the boards, but I think that it could be done another way rather than push the match date back to April, especially this first year when no one knows when it is going to happen. Maybe offering a test date in Dec maybe would help, or decreasing the amount of time between the first 2 test dates. I don't know if either of those ideas would work any better, but I think that the process still needs some ironing out as it goes.

 

[air bud]

I agree with Ankle Breaker for the most part. We do have less options and taking the test a second time is a way to minimize the residency shortage problem.However, Kidsfeet makes a good point. I think podiatry babies too many people and in general more of a cut-throat approach is necessary. One of the attendings at one of my externships said it best "What percentage of your classmates would you allow to do surgery on you?" There is an enormous disparity between the top podiatry students and the bottom. Top podiatry students can compete with any medical student in the country and the bottom students cannot name all the bones in thee foot. Its the truth. Not really sure what the solution is though.

In any case the reason I started this thread was specifically to see if anyone has insider info on Match day 2012.

Very few. And a great question. Just wait AnkleBreaker, you will see. You will bust your balls and read/study in your free time. You will have classmates that play SkyRim in their free time. Pretty soon you will start seeing the differences between the two.

 

[hematosis]

.

 

[NeilD]

class officers, are you kidding, they would be the first to screw you over! Everybody thinks for themselves, dog eat dog in this profession. prepare for disappointment.

 

[347932]

Everybody thinks for themselves, dog eat dog in every profession. prepare for life.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Traum]

DPMs do have significantly fewer options than MDs if they do not match first go around. MDs can do alot more in terms of options outside of clinical medicine, podiatry (DPM degree) is still a raised eyebrow in many circles and it is rare for a DPM to get FT work outside of clinical podiatry (foot and sometimes ankle medicine).

You need to go to the elected "leaders", officials, whomever, and raise these points regarding these residency problems.This has been an ongoing issue with the residency shortage back in the 90's. History repeats itself.

You all paid huge sums of money plus interest of non-bankruptable student loans and should demand excellence from this profession, the organizations (that collect fees, dues, assessments), and from yourselves.

By vastly improving the standards to podiatric schools, perhaps the applicant pool will increase, MCATs will be required from ALL the schools, and undergrad caliber will be augmented too with students finally being able to sit for the USMLEs Part I-III if the podiatric schools can gain LCME approval.

Good luck.

 

[SuperFeisty]

Traum, I agree... we need more awareness about this profession. When I was in college, I was in the pre-med society, and NOT ONCE was podiatry mentioned. It was MD, DO, dentistry basically. Once I found this, sure it is hella appealing, but I don't think most ppl know about this.

 

[Podfather]

I thought the whole point of adding the second date was to decrease the amount of students not getting a residency. Correct? If a student failed the first time then they still have the chance to pass the next time around and keep their residency. I understand it sucks for the students who passed on their first try and are now just waiting around but I think this is the step in the right direction so the profession stops looking ridiculous. Whether its students or the leaders of this profession...everyone has great ideas but not everyone is willing to sacrifice for the greater good of the profession when they are implemented. That's why people piss and moan so much in podiatry or at least it seems like it to me.

This isn't a specific attack on anyone in this thread, I'm just speaking my mind as a current student. I understand its frustrating not to have matched yet. I probably will be frustrated too when I'm at that point in my career. I still think this change is worth keeping though. Any chance we can decrease the amount of our students not getting a residency makes the profession as a whole look better. Other than this profession not seeming very appealing to quality students, it's possible quality students don't want to risk going into a profession where there is a possibility they may not match after its all said and done.

Look I kinda of get tired of the majority suffering for the few. IMO those who fail Part 1 should not be advanced and those who fail part 2 not be permitted to graduate. The schools also are at fault for giving some who should have never been accepted false hope only to see them fail the boards, not match, get a lousy job, and default on student loans. Then the entire profession has to re-vamp every process to make up for those who enter that cycle.

Now the APMA is out with a lecture and video basically saying anyone can start a residency and make big dollars. It should be establishing criteria on who is director material, where a residency is needed, and adjust acceptance rates on the number of programs with attrition considered. How embarassing to have a lecture that says hey anyone can be a director, we will help you with the paperwork, and look at all of the Medicare money you will get. I know of 2 programs that have or are in the process of starting. The director at one is not even board certified or qualified and I know for a fact does not have the cases or adequate rotations. The second director has already tried to "steal" some of our faculty and when called out said he's in it for the "gravy" money. Then we will be shocked when these programs go on probation or close. Let's not forget about the quality of the graduates and the safety and professional ramifications of that.

 

[Traum]

EXCELLENT point Podpadre. That is obscene what the APMA is doing and should ashamed. A video/lecture and you too can call yourself the "residency director!?" That is their plan to deal with the residency shortage. If I were a student, I would be outraged.

The key is as you stated, get absolutely highly qualified residency directors with long established track records--not those looking for Medicare dollars or the "gravy" train to use/abuse residents.

Excellent post. Podfather is an outstanding resource--listen to his years of experience/wisdom.

 

[thinkmanthink]

Wow, i love how people come on this forum, very often might i add, hate on people who wants to fix the residency shortage. Duh, money drives people, and if that means people wanting to be a director and make money and secondarily help with the residency shortage, good for them! At least they are being "active" verses getting on this forum and "write" out what "should" be done.

Schools should take students who can handle the workload and intensity of medicine i agree...but u dont own/manage the school, so u dont know what they need to do to make their business work and be profitable. Everyone is out for money, and thats how life works.

I applaud people wanting to open up new programs. Hell, when i graduate, finish residency, i would love to be a big shot and boss people around! Lol. And no programs gonna succeed without trying! There are established programs on probation now!

 

[347932]

Being a residency director is A LOT of work. It is generally thankless and has many more headaches than victories. It's not easy to convince hospitals to generate more positions as they have to outlay the money FIRST, then hope that everything goes through and get then paid retroactively.

I'm not exactly sure how some of these people are getting "gravy" out of the position as the medicare money goes to the institutions, not the individual. Unless they are making back door deals with these institutions (which is unethical for both them AND the institution) or they are employees of the institutions and get bonuses for developing non patient care dollars (which is rare), there aren't really any ethical ways to get your grubby hands on that extra money.

 

[thinkmanthink]

I have no doubt being a director is hard work. But we need people who want to at least try. For the sake of the shortage. Yes, schools need to figure a good balance between accepting too many students and making their institution financially stable. No new podiatry school should be built...anymore...cant go back time now. Its really scary that not everyone will get a residency. And to say well...everyone "shoulda" pass boards. Thats kinda bull$$$$...because if EVERYONE pass boards...that means there is something wrong with the test. If apmle ever gets 100% national pass rate, you better be sure they'll be writing harder questions for next year. Just remember there are great doctors/attendings now who may not pass boards "on time" but got a residency spot anyways back in the day. There is no safety net for podiatry students compared to md/do programs. No residency = ur screwed.

 

[air bud]

I have no doubt being a director is hard work. But we need people who want to at least try. For the sake of the shortage. Yes, schools need to figure a good balance between accepting too many students and making their institution financially stable. No new podiatry school should be built...anymore...cant go back time now. Its really scary that not everyone will get a residency. And to say well...everyone "shoulda" pass boards. Thats kinda bull$$$$...because if EVERYONE pass boards...that means there is something wrong with the test. If apmle ever gets 100% national pass rate, you better be sure they'll be writing harder questions for next year. Just remember there are great doctors/attendings now who may not pass boards "on time" but got a residency spot anyways back in the day. There is no safety net for podiatry students compared to md/do programs. No residency = ur screwed.

No residency = Probably a good reason

I am continually dismayed at fellow students on here who do not see the difference between people at the top and people at the bottom of the class. There is a reason there is a difference. Actions have consequences. As I have repeatedly said on these forums, this is not the YMCA where you can just pay some money and be in the club. You have to put in the time in the weightroom and on the treadmill if you want to have a body like DTrack. But hey, the thought process of entitlement and everyone is equal and everyone should share is symbolic of this generation.
I busted my butt to get the grades I got and the externships I got. I will bust my butt 4th year to get the program I want. And I fully expect to be rewarded for doing so. Very little of this has been or will be luck. Just like very little luck was involved in students not passing boards.

 

[air bud]

I have no doubt being a director is hard work. But we need people who want to at least try. For the sake of the shortage. Yes, schools need to figure a good balance between accepting too many students and making their institution financially stable. No new podiatry school should be built...anymore...cant go back time now. Its really scary that not everyone will get a residency. And to say well...everyone "shoulda" pass boards. Thats kinda bull$$$$...because if EVERYONE pass boards...that means there is something wrong with the test. If apmle ever gets 100% national pass rate, you better be sure they'll be writing harder questions for next year. Just remember there are great doctors/attendings now who may not pass boards "on time" but got a residency spot anyways back in the day. There is no safety net for podiatry students compared to md/do programs. No residency = ur screwed.

No safety net??? Grow up and be responsible for your self and your actions.

 

[air bud]

I have no doubt being a director is hard work. But we need people who want to at least try. For the sake of the shortage. Yes, schools need to figure a good balance between accepting too many students and making their institution financially stable. No new podiatry school should be built...anymore...cant go back time now. Its really scary that not everyone will get a residency. And to say well...everyone "shoulda" pass boards. Thats kinda bull$$$$...because if EVERYONE pass boards...that means there is something wrong with the test. If apmle ever gets 100% national pass rate, you better be sure they'll be writing harder questions for next year. Just remember there are great doctors/attendings now who may not pass boards "on time" but got a residency spot anyways back in the day. There is no safety net for podiatry students compared to md/do programs. No residency = ur screwed.

No, NOT for the sake of the shortage. For the sake of the profession. Because you want to give students a gift you have been given. Sorry if you can't tell the difference.

 

[thinkmanthink]

Lol...u guys are students. And have yet to match. Yet so confident. Laughable. I am an average student (in terms of grades)...who work really hard. But i luckily passes boards. There were a lot of students with high gpas along with good clinical skills...who did NOT pass boards. Boards were flat out hard. Good luck with ur future match. Your cocky ***** will get u somewhere...just not sure where exactly.

 

[air bud]

It's not a cocky attitude. Yes, there is a fine line between confidence and cockiness. But don't confuse the two.

 

[thinkmanthink]

Grow up? Dude, i feel sorry for u bro. U dont seem the type to have any friends. You must study all day and read forums. I have heart, i believe a lot of people work hard, but arent born geniuses. And no school will pass a dummie. The boards are hard, and doesnt make someone a complete failure if they did not pass. I simply dont think its fair that people will be 200+ in debt...and as someone mentioned before...dont match this year, less likely to match next year. Point i was trying to make is to not knock people down for wanting to start a residency.

 

[thinkmanthink]

Like i said...u havnt matched yet. And not all superstars get great programs because people get annoyed by students who are overly confident. Know your stuff...but modesty gets u farther in life. Just be careful what u wish for, cuz ull may not match ur number one and scramble to a deadbeat program...because there not much to choose from....shortage remember...

 

[thinkmanthink]

Im done with this forum. There are obviously a lot of people who lurk onto this site, but are silent viewers. But im sure they all feel like this forum have the same 5 people who act like they know it all... bully-like attitudea. Its a shame because there are so many more normal podiatry students out there who arent all-stars, but hard workers, who have real fears and concerns about their future. But these same members who dominate every posts say the same thing over and over..."ur not top ten of ur class?...well then... ur a loser and it makes sense u dont have a program." Peace out, this forum is completely one-sided.

 

[that1guyfromFL]

Due to our SHORTAGE which doesn't exist in MD/DO land.

Just a little clarification here: residency positions go unfilled in podiatry AND in every other specialty in medicine every cycle. This year thousands of MD/DO applicants did not match. There are reasons why residency directors, podiatric or otherwise, do not take these applicants.

Errrr, I don't think any other medical profession gives a crap about whether their students can't pass a standardized examination. Fail it...oh well...try again next year and suffer.....Getting two chances like this in any other field is unheard of.

The USMLE is offered at least 25 times every year.

Why give two tries to pass? I don't get it.

You can't think of a single reason why having two opportunities to take and pass an exam that determines whether or not you match or are forced to take a year off might be a good idea? Acute Illness? Car Accident? Family tragedy the day before?

A student this year got to the testing center without realizing their DL was expired, wasn't allowed to take the exam and had to take it the 2nd offering.

What would you tell students in these situations? Sorry for your luck?

I can understand the frustration of students who passed the first offering feeling like they are waiting around, but having two opportunities to take this critical exam is common sense.

Given that this is the first time 2 offerings have taken place before the match, it wouldn't surprise me if adjustments are made for future cycles.

 

[air bud]

Grow up? Dude, i feel sorry for u bro. U dont seem the type to have any friends. You must study all day and read forums. I have heart, i believe a lot of people work hard, but arent born geniuses. And no school will pass a dummie. The boards are hard, and doesnt make someone a complete failure if they did not pass. I simply dont think its fair that people will be 200+ in debt...and as someone mentioned before...dont match this year, less likely to match next year. Point i was trying to make is to not knock people down for wanting to start a residency.

Whoa, this is freaking me out. Its like you know me.

 

[SuperFeisty]

All I know is I can dunk on Airbud

 

[that1guyfromFL]

There are no shortage of spots available. Refer to #2.
Not seeing the clarification here.

Ok, let me state this another way. Quoting from the NRMP report from 2011:

"In 2011, the ratio of PGY-1 positions per active U.S. senior was 1.41, lowest since 1999, but higher than the overall average of 1.39 between 1976 and 2011."

That ratio for the pod match this year, using the latest numbers (appx 508 graduates, 525 spots), is 1.03 position per graduate. Not great, but over 1:1 nonetheless.


If you look at the NRMP, the same thing happens in the MD match that happens in ours.

30,000 applicants for 23,000 positions, only 18,500 of the applicants were 2011 graduates of US schools.

There ARE residency positions for all the graduating students, in our match and theirs.

In our case, it's the re-applicants (appx 70 this year) that push things into a "shortage".

In their case, its IMG + re-applicants.

 

[that1guyfromFL]

Nice numbers but it still doesn't mean the playing field is similar between pods and MD/DO.

IMO the match situation actually is similar, but the opportunities for students who don't match are very different. See more comments below.

I think you are not appreciating the fact that MD/DO students can do a paid transitional medical year and continue to sharpen their clinical skills while they contemplate their future in medicine.

We are in agreement about this. The issue of what happens to student who don't match is separate from the discussion about our match process. Many people (not you specifically) in our profession like to characterize our residency situation as unfair and place blame for students who don't match primarily on a perceived "shortage". I'm attempting to more clearly illustrate the situation our current graduates find themselves in with regard to opportunity to match.

What percentage of pod grads who didn't match the first time end up matching the next cycle?

DPM re-applicants match rate is roughly 30%

MD previous graduates match rate was 44% last year


For reference:

10.5% of MD applicants were previous graduates.

8.2% of DPM applicants are re-applying.

I'd bet big money that the MD/DO who did the transitional year ends up matching their next cycle compared to the pod student who attempts to match their second time around. The MD/DO has a vast array of different medical disciplines to match into. Chances are they will settle for something even if it isn't their first choice. Wouldn't you agree?

Intuitively, that would make sense. It does probably happen, but based on the numbers in the NRMP (44% match for previous grads) it seems that most students who settle for a 3rd or 4th choice actually end up doing so in their initial match cycle, not in a re-application situation.

Two very different endings for students who didn't match.

Totally agree. Students who don't match as a DPM have significantly fewer options than our MD/DO counterparts.

 

[347932]

The USMLE is offered at least 25 times every year.

Didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification.

You can't think of a single reason why having two opportunities to take and pass an exam that determines whether or not you match or are forced to take a year off might be a good idea? Acute Illness? Car Accident? Family tragedy the day before?

Why is it that when people make examples for the masses, they chose very specific situations that should be handled on an individual basis? For those outstanding circumstances, there will always be room for second tries.

A student this year got to the testing center without realizing their DL was expired, wasn't allowed to take the exam and had to take it the 2nd offering.

Luck has nothing to do with it. Did this student know he or she would be required to produce valid picture identification to sit for the examination? If so, they screwed up and I have no sympathy. They should have checked their ID MONTHS prior to make sure everything was in order. This happens in all aspects of your career. Make that mistake on your Surgery Boards, especially if your status is about to run out and you are SOL and the ABPS doesn't and shouldn't give a rip. Your career can change that quickly. Be prepared for life's responsibilities or you will have issues.

Car accidents and family tragedies are unavoidable.

Some things are avoidable. Make sure you have all the avoidable issues taken care to minimize your chances of stirring trouble for yourself.

 

[that1guyfromFL]

For those outstanding circumstances, there will always be room for second tries.

Offering only those with "outstanding circumstances" a second try makes more sense to you than having a second established open test date?

Who decides what the criteria is to qualify for a second try?

Why are you opposed to the idea of all students having 2 opportunities to pass Part 2 before the match?

Make that mistake on your Surgery Boards, especially if your status is about to run out and you are SOL and the ABPS doesn't and shouldn't give a rip.

This comparison is not remotely analogous. You can practice without ABPS certification, you cannot match without passing Part 2.

 

[347932]

Offering only those with "outstanding circumstances" a second try makes more sense to you than having a second established open test date?

Yes, it does.

Who decides what the criteria is to qualify for a second try?

The panel you present yourself to to plead your case.

Why are you opposed to the idea of all students having 2 opportunities to pass Part 2 before the match?

I'm not opposed to it. I just don't get it. Big difference.

This comparison is not remotely analogous. You can practice without ABPS certification, you cannot match without passing Part 2.

In some communities, such as the one I left, being ABPS is really the only way to have a practice. Without ABPS, you can't get on most insurances and can't get on hospital staff.

Let's say 10% fail part two twice. Should we then say we should give them three tries? Where does it end? Eliminate the requirement to get through part two? Then what?

 

[that1guyfromFL]

Let's say 10% fail part two twice. Should we then say we should give them three tries? Where does it end?

You are allowed to attempt the USMLE/APLME as many times as you want. There are 3 opportunities each year for the APMLE Part 2 and 25+ for the USMLE.

EDIT: this italicized part is incorrect. I checked the candidate bulletin again for the most recent info and a 6 attempt max for each USMLE Step went into effect January of this year. It would be interesting to know what prompted the change, the last conversation I had related to the subject gave me the impression a limit was not even under discussion. The APMLE still has no attempt limit.

The panel you present yourself to to plead your case.

I can only imagine the level of litigation that would result from this set up.
It is extremely risky from a legel perspective to make candidate eligibility a subjective process. This is why there is no limit on the number of attempts by a single candidate as well. If you pass Part 1 and complete the coursework required, you are eligible and you may attempt the exam as many times as you wish.


EDIT: see above

Eliminate the requirement to get through part two? Then what?

This is a ridiculous straw man argument. Absolutely no one but you has suggested this action.

 

[347932]

You are allowed to attempt the USMLE/APLME as many times as you want. There are 3 opportunities each year for the APMLE Part 2 and 25+ for the USMLE.
This is why there is no limit on the number of attempts by a single candidate as well. If you pass Part 1 and complete the coursework required, you are eligible and you may attempt the exam as many times as you wish.

Wait. Are we talking about passing the exam itself or in the appropriate time frame to make the match? The argument here is that you have a shot (or two) to pass the examination BEFORE match day. I don't care if it takes you 20 times to pass the examination, but to hold up the process for everyone else, so a few can squeak by makes no sense to me.

This is a ridiculous straw man argument. Absolutely no one but you has suggested this action.

It IS ridiculous. You're right. The current situation is because of something equally ridiculous in my eyes. Shift a curriculum so it is in direct conflict with the timing of an examination which is necessary to get to the next stage of your career, and then because of that have to shift the examination (or offer it twice) to accommodate this new curriculum.

How many times can a Med student take the USMLE previous to match day? Do all med students take it the first time it's offered, or is the examination offered 25 times a year to accommodate students' schedules? With a completely computer randomized examination, that CAN work.