Mid Term Elections- Lessons Learned

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The Democrats are not the workers' and middle class's party anymore:

Just disgusting. Cutting the workforce, then punishing workers because there is nobody around to pick up the slack when they get sick from being overworked.

All of this to protect private railway corporations, out of which 4 control 85% of the nation's rail traffic. Crony capitalism.

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The Democrats are not the workers' and middle class's party anymore:

Just disgusting. Cutting the workforce, then punishing workers because there is nobody around to pick up the slack when they get sick from being overworked.

All of this to protect private railway corporations, out of which 4 control 85% of the nation's railways.


Agree. Biden did that to prevent a crisis which would make his approval rating even worse.

“By the numbers: During the first three quarters of 2022, the rail industry made a record-breaking $21.2 billion in profits, according to the joint statement.

  • "Guaranteeing 7 paid sick days to rail workers would only cost the industry $321 million a year – less than 2 percent of their total profits," the statement continues. "Please do not tell us that the rail industry cannot afford to guarantee paid sick days to their workers."

 
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Agree. Biden did that to prevent a crisis which would make his approval rating even worse.

“By the numbers: During the first three quarters of 2022, the rail industry made a record-breaking $21.2 billion in profits, according to the joint statement.

  • "Guaranteeing 7 paid sick days to rail workers would only cost the industry $321 million a year – less than 2 percent of their total profits," the statement continues. "Please do not tell us that the rail industry cannot afford to guarantee paid sick days to their workers."


Tough spot for the Dems.

You get neoliberal capitalist Biden in charge, the railway wins, and of course the narrative from the right is the Dems don't care about the middle class and workers.

You get workers rights champion Bernie in charge, 1000% the railway workers come out on top, and of course the narrative is Dems are woke liberal socialist Marxist Leninist communists who hate capitalism and the business community.

One maybe, just maybe might get the impression that most opposition criticism nowadays is "heads I win, tails you lose" disingenuousness.
 
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Agree. Biden did that to prevent a crisis which would make his approval rating even worse.

“By the numbers: During the first three quarters of 2022, the rail industry made a record-breaking $21.2 billion in profits, according to the joint statement.

  • "Guaranteeing 7 paid sick days to rail workers would only cost the industry $321 million a year – less than 2 percent of their total profits," the statement continues. "Please do not tell us that the rail industry cannot afford to guarantee paid sick days to their workers."

I don't know why anyone wants sick days. Give me PTO instead so I can use it as I please. If I use all my PTO and then call in sick, dock my pay for the appropriate amount.
 
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I don't know why anyone wants sick days. Give me PTO instead so I can use it as I please. If I use all my PTO and then call in sick, dock my pay for the appropriate amount.

I read somewhere that their PTO couldn't be used ad hoc (like it had to be scheduled weeks or months in advance) which prevented it from being used as sick time. Haven't checked the veracity of that claim, tho
 
I read somewhere that their PTO couldn't be used ad hoc (like it had to be scheduled weeks or months in advance) which prevented it from being used as sick time. Haven't checked the veracity of that claim, tho
I see. Well then I get it. My bro in law is an engineer with UP and they've got a pretty brutal schedule at times. I haven't asked him about this whole ordeal but I just might now.
 
The Democrats are not the workers' and middle class's party anymore:

Just disgusting. Cutting the workforce, then punishing workers because there is nobody around to pick up the slack when they get sick from being overworked.

All of this to protect private railway corporations, out of which 4 control 85% of the nation's rail traffic. Crony capitalism.
Yea, and what about the republicans that vote yes to this in the house and senate, when every other piece of legislation democrats put forward face unanimous opposition from republicans?

Maybe Biden didn’t push for the sick days to get the votes to pass this quickly.

But yes I think Biden should have stuck and been completely pro union in this case, a little disappointing.
 
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Yea, and what about the republicans that vote yes to this in the house and senate, when every other piece of legislation democrats put forward face unanimous opposition from republicans?

Maybe Biden didn’t push for the sick days to get the votes to pass this quickly.

But yes I think Biden should have stuck and been completely pro union in this case, a little disappointing.
"[The Senate] also rejected an amendment championed by Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., and Democrats to add seven days of paid sick leave for rail workers to the agreement. The vote was 52 to 43, falling eight votes short of succeeding.

The "no" votes on the sick leave measure were 42 Republicans and Sen. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va. Most Democrats voted "yes," joined by six Republicans: Mike Braun of Indiana, Ted Cruz of Texas, Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, Josh Hawley of Missouri, John Kennedy of Louisiana and Marco Rubio of Florida."

 
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"[The Senate] also rejected an amendment championed by Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., and Democrats to add seven days of paid sick leave for rail workers to the agreement. The vote was 52 to 43, falling eight votes short of succeeding.

The "no" votes on the sick leave measure were 42 Republicans and Sen. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va. Most Democrats voted "yes," joined by six Republicans: Mike Braun of Indiana, Ted Cruz of Texas, Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, Josh Hawley of Missouri, John Kennedy of Louisiana and Marco Rubio of Florida."


Probably won't shock anyone here but I'd happily vote for Bernie, or someone like him. There's a real problem with who Democrats say they are and who they actually are. I'm not sure Joe Manchin actually stands for anything anymore, if he ever did, outside of toeing the line to remain elected. It doesn't take long for me to read about, watch videos, and read quotes from people like Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley to understand that I am nothing like them and see very little commonality with them in the world. Bernie says he's for the people not the corporations, and guess what, he actually means it.
 
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Whatever happened to compromise? How about 3 days PAID sick leave and 4 days unpaid if needed? That's the type of compromise that everyone could get behind because it makes no one happy.
 
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No attack from me. I've watched this thread from the beginning. There are some very bright, passionate, highly articulate people contributing. Since I lean hard center right, and am a passionate 1A and 2A supporter, there is plenty I don't agree with. Yet the many persuasive comments allowed me to consider points I hadn't entertained and caused me to reflect on my positions. They haven't changed much, but that is the blessing we have been given with free speech. Free speech protects the speech I don't agree with. Sure, the snark, and the cut n paste wars get tiresome. But I enjoy the exposure to different opinions and respect the ones I don't agree with, and there are many.
I have noticed the hard left on SDN likes to counter arguments with personal attacks. In general, those attacking others this way have poor, weak arguments so they must resort to ad-hominem attacks. This is exactly what goes on in our society today. For example, if you don't agree with DEI then you are a racist. Or, if you don't agree with race based affirmative action for Medical School or Residency you support White Supremacy. The Left constantly distorts the argument to discredit the validity of the argument. "Equity" used to mean fairness for everyone regardless of skin color, gender or gender identity.

I can guarantee the response to this post will be more personal attacks and accusations that I engage in ad-hominem attacks by simply calling a supporter of Bernie Sanders a Progressive Socialist (which they are). I readily admit to being a typical moderate conservative with some different opinions on social issues.
For those who are truly open to seeing the conservative point of view I recommend Prager U for short videos.


 
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I ask the Progessives on here like Vector 2, Southpaw and GORO just to watch these videos and understand who are the real racists in the USA.
 
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I have noticed the hard left on SDN likes to counter arguments with personal attacks. In general, those attacking others this way have poor, weak arguments so they must resort to ad-hominem attacks. This is exactly what goes on in our society today. For example, if you don't agree with DEI then you are a racist. Or, if you don't agree with race based affirmative action for Medical School or Residency you support White Supremacy. The Left constantly distorts the argument to discredit the validity of the argument. "Equity" used to mean fairness for everyone regardless of skin color, gender or gender identity.

I can guarantee the response to this post will be more personal attacks and accusations that I engage in ad-hominem attacks by simply calling a supporter of Bernie Sanders a Progressive Socialist (which they are). I readily admit to being a typical moderate conservative with some different opinions on social issues.
For those who are truly open to seeing the conservative point of view I recommend Prager U for short videos.



I think I’ve read the entire thread. Please point to the post(s) from the left where you’ve been called a racist or a white supremacist.

By the way, when you label someone a socialist (as you have me) and refer to them as such throughout a thread, you should be honest about it and admit it’s pejorative and not meant as a compliment.
 
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Also - capitalism (at least in healthcare) will assuredly completely ruin healthcare through the employment of physicians for profit, the fact that there are like 3 insurance companies left, the power of hospitals, or the allowed lobbying efforts of hospitals and insurance companies.

Espousing a shift to help the workers over the corps, or stating a shift in the power differential toward the patient over hospitals/insurance companies, does not equate to a belief that everyone should stand in line for bread and toothpaste handouts from the government.
 
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Whatever happened to compromise? How about 3 days PAID sick leave and 4 days unpaid if needed? That's the type of compromise that everyone could get behind because it makes no one happy.
This type of compromise never works. It’s based off old negotiation theory, like “getting to yes”. A middle of the road compromise just makes both sides unhappy. Negotiating is more about human emotion, both sides need to feel valued and feel as though a “fair” compromise was acheived. They needed to give the 7 paid sick days, and bend on some other part of the contract to appease the rail industry.
 
I think I’ve read the entire thread. Please point to the post(s) from the left where you’ve been called a racist or a white supremacist.

By the way, when you label someone a socialist (as you have me) and refer to them as such throughout a thread, you should be honest about it and admit it’s pejorative and not meant as a compliment.

There are 100x more accusations of leveling ad hominems / personal attacks from blade and other conservative posters than there are actual attacks against them.

Much more often than not, he or another person make an argument totally devoid of logic, not supported by any evidence, or just completely biased (like that Tampa article about CRT in medical schools that didn't even interview anyone from the other side), and then when they're called out on making a bad argument and find themselves unable to defend its premise on the merits, their only recourse is to say the poster is personally attacking them.
 
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Also - capitalism (at least in healthcare) will assuredly completely ruin healthcare through the employment of physicians for profit, the fact that there are like 3 insurance companies left, the power of hospitals, or the allowed lobbying efforts of hospitals and insurance companies.

Espousing a shift to help the workers over the corps, or stating a shift in the power differential toward the patient over hospitals/insurance companies, does not equate to a belief that everyone should stand in line for bread and toothpaste handouts from the government.

What we have now in healthcare is not capitalism. It’s a bunch of middlemen, cost shifting, non transparency, massive government entitlement and milking the system of “other peoples money.”

We need to largely get rid of insurance and move back to patients paying their providers directly, as well as for their drugs/devices. This alone would drop costs 90%, cause instant price transparency, and eliminate unnecessary care.

Of course this is always countered by the rich/poor will have a 2 tiered system. Well, that is already happening and we could mitigate with a low cost (but not unlimited) catastrophic insurance covered by the government and maybe a tax credit system or something.
 
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There are 100x more accusations of leveling ad hominems / personal attacks from blade and other conservative posters than there are actual attacks against them.

Much more often than not, he or another person make an argument totally devoid of logic, not supported by any evidence, or just completely biased (like that Tampa article about CRT in medical schools that didn't even interview anyone from the other side), and then when they're called out on making a bad argument and find themselves unable to defend its premise on the merits, their only recourse is to say the poster is personally attacking them.

Do you think it’s good/fair that if you express strong opposition to DEI practices or AA in corporate America today it could have major implications for your career and you’d be instantly attacked personally all around with racist accusations? Most people in corporate America know this — and therefore remain silent except at the voting booth.

Mob cancel culture is real, and not just for celebrities on twitter.
 
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Do you think it’s good/fair that if you express strong opposition to DEI practices or AA in corporate America today it could have major implications for your career and you’d be instantly attacked personally all around with racist accusations? Most people in corporate America know this — and therefore remain silent except at the voting booth.

Mob cancel culture is real, and not just for celebrities on twitter.

I think your perception of what corporate culture is like is more stereotype than reality, in that you (because of your absolutely unbreakable conviction that DEI or AA is like the second coming of satan) blow out of proportion 1. Your perceived downsides of DEI education, 2. The consequences that employees face if they express their discomfort in a reasonable, measured way.

Are there examples where people resigned or were forced out unjustly? Sure, look at the Boghossian case in Portland. And I'm sure you could Google a few more. But I would wager for every unjust firing or censoring you find, there are 5 more where someone just wanted to write a racist screed on their Facebook page, got fired for it, and now they're blaming DEI instead of acknowledging their employer simply didn't want a dingus working for them.

Furthermore, who are the people who actually make up corporate leadership? Like I said in another post, ~90% of fortune 500 ceos are still white men. Also, 70 some percent of all corporate leadership in this country are white men. That's the reality. And yet you believe that's a leadership structure which is going to implement DEI in a way that hurts that leadership structure or the pool from which they recruit their future leaders? Nah.

As far as the voting booth, I think we all know fear sells. If you scare the crap out of people and demagogue them into thinking their way of life is over and that their protected tribe is in danger (even when it's not)....they'll even vote for charlatans like DeSantis who take great pleasure in banning textbooks and revising history.

If you don't believe me that fear has trumped reason here, look at this absurd statement of yours:


I feel bad for poor white and Asian kids of average ability who have very low chances in education, workplaces etc today even when they do put in 3x the work

Or this gem of blade's:


One could speculate that being a white or Asian male would be akin to being a black male in America circa 1926.
 
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Also - capitalism (at least in healthcare) will assuredly completely ruin healthcare through the employment of physicians for profit, the fact that there are like 3 insurance companies left, the power of hospitals, or the allowed lobbying efforts of hospitals and insurance companies.

Espousing a shift to help the workers over the corps, or stating a shift in the power differential toward the patient over hospitals/insurance companies, does not equate to a belief that everyone should stand in line for bread and toothpaste handouts from the government.
Nothing about healthcare today even remotely resembles capitalism
 
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I think your perception of what corporate culture is like is more stereotype than reality, in that you (because of your absolutely unbreakable conviction that DEI or AA is like the second coming of satan) blow out of proportion 1. Your perceived downsides of DEI education, 2. The consequences that employees face if they express their discomfort in a reasonable, measured way.

Are there examples where people resigned or were forced out unjustly? Sure, look at the Boghossian case in Portland. And I'm sure you could Google a few more. But I would wager for every unjust firing or censoring you find, there are 5 more where someone just wanted to write a racist screed on their Facebook page, got fired for it, and now they're blaming DEI instead of acknowledging their employer simply didn't want a dingus working for them.


Okay- so if what you say is true show me a reasonable, respectful conversation happening in a big company or school where those opposing DEI or AA (non-anonymously) have been given a voice, listened to respectfully and not cancelled or called racist.

While white men may often run these corporations they are also fearful not towing the prevailing culture. They have reached the top - and there is only downside for them personally to not virtue-signal (even if it may not be fair to those below them).

The only recourse to conservatives that oppose this stuff was the courts, or the voting booth, which may not have been the case if we could have had a reasonable compromise in the culture before it came to that.
 
Moreover and related tangentially to DEI/AA is the laughable defense by liberals that CRT elements are NOT being taught in primary/secondary schools, and that somehow banning CRT would prevent teaching about the facts of US history. Here’s a great article about that:

 
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United Healthcare and their $17 billion in profit ($285 billion in revenue) last year disagree.

Except that’s just a downstream effect of having huge government and corporate “pots” of money where the end consumer isn’t deciding on how the money is spent (or caring how it’s spent).

Imagine if everyone had to individually buy their drugs out-of-pocket and decide on whether it was worth their healthcare dollars. The whole drug industry would no longer aim at 100k/year drugs. They would aim to compete with each other to produce low-cost but new, effective (non copy-cat) products that would reach the most number of people. Same with surgeries, doctor visits etc.

Obviously there would have to be some exceptions for emergency and catastrophic care.
 
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Okay- so if what you say is true show me a reasonable, respectful conversation happening in a big company or school where those opposing DEI or AA (non-anonymously) have been given a voice, listened to respectfully and not cancelled or called racist.

Sure, no problem.


The Coca-Cola Company, meanwhile, has undergone its own, quite public, journey on diversity initiatives. In September 2020, they hired Bradley Gayton as general counsel. He outlined new diversity initiatives compelling all law firms the company contracts with to establish clear diversity and accountability metrics via an open letter in January 2021. This set an important precedent since it ultimately puts pressure on law firms to hire and develop a more diverse workforce. For instance, 30% of the billable hours must go directly to diverse attorneys, of which half must be Black lawyers. As a result, law firms are forced to rethink hiring, retention, and promotion strategies, making a diverse workforce a requirement instead of an aspiration. And Gayton’s strategic targeting of Black lawyers paved the way for them to receive the necessary professional development, substantive assignments, and networking opportunities that would increase their chances for promotion and advancement.

While Coca-Cola was initially lauded for this bold diversity objective, it soon faced backlash from dissenters who argued that these new diversity goals were discriminatory. This led the initiative to come to an abrupt pause following the unexpected resignation of Gayton in April 2021. There was strong pushback from company shareholders who believed the initiative was violating the fiduciary responsibilities of the board since they feared potential lawsuits in violation of Title VII and IX of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, as well as the American Disabilities Act. Given the outside pressures and internal pushback, The Coca-Cola Company recently confirmed that this diversity initiative has never gone into effect, and it will not move forward.


While white men may often run these corporations they are also fearful not towing the prevailing culture. They have reached the top - and there is only downside for them personally to not virtue-signal (even if it may not be fair to those below them).

The ultimate point is that neither AA or DEI, which are concepts that have been around since the civil rights movement but simply with different names, have made a huge impact on the makeup of corporate America. Or political America for that matter.

The somewhat more reasonable people who disagree with DEI realize that a lot of it probably is just toothless virtue signaling from an unchanging white male power structure, and they'll sinply roll their eyes at the occasional mandatory meeting or chief diversity officer appointment (who isn't given any real power.) The unreasonable ones make those highlighted statements like yours and blade's above, call literally everything they disagree with woke, and then vote for demagogue politicians who wink and nod to the White Genocide crowd while simultaneously trying to prevent students from learning the history of slavery and Jim Crow in this country.
 
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Folks who can raise capital (investment bankers and private equity) are in charge, that’s capitalism.
they are in charge of the affordable care act and the medicare fee schedule?
 
United Healthcare and their $17 billion in profit ($285 billion in revenue) last year disagree.
Who allows united healthcare to operate with very little competition?

I don’t know about you but I have to get my healthcare through work and I have 2 sh*tty options to choose from. They are not the same options you have to choose from. Thats not capitalism.
 
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Except that’s just a downstream effect of having huge government and corporate “pots” of money where the end consumer isn’t deciding on how the money is spent (or caring how it’s spent).

Imagine if everyone had to individually buy their drugs out-of-pocket and decide on whether it was worth their healthcare dollars. The whole drug industry would no longer aim at 100k/year drugs. They would aim to compete with each other to produce low-cost but new, effective (non copy-cat) products that would reach the most number of people. Same with surgeries, doctor visits etc.

Obviously there would have to be some exceptions for emergency and catastrophic care.
What are you talking about. You describe the insurance industry in general, and then say that it’s not capitalism because individuals who are insured do not directly spend the money for their premium. Ridiculous.
 
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What are you talking about. You describe the insurance industry in general, and then say that it’s not capitalism because individuals who are insured do not directly spend the money for their premium. Ridiculous.

Not ridiculous. The entire insurance and pharmaceutical industry is not really capitalistic. To some extent hospitals and doctors as well.

The premise of capitalism includes different entities competing to gain choices of consumers for their goods. A few monopolies who have lobbied hard enough so that the government forces collections (ie taxes) and then turns this money over to the corporations (medicare, Medicaid) is a perversion of capitalism to the extreme.
 
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Sure, no problem.

The Coca-Cola Company, meanwhile, has undergone its own, quite public, journey on diversity initiatives. In September 2020, they hired Bradley Gayton as general counsel. He outlined new diversity initiatives compelling all law firms the company contracts with to establish clear diversity and accountability metrics via an open letter in January 2021. This set an important precedent since it ultimately puts pressure on law firms to hire and develop a more diverse workforce. For instance, 30% of the billable hours must go directly to diverse attorneys, of which half must be Black lawyers. As a result, law firms are forced to rethink hiring, retention, and promotion strategies, making a diverse workforce a requirement instead of an aspiration. And Gayton’s strategic targeting of Black lawyers paved the way for them to receive the necessary professional development, substantive assignments, and networking opportunities that would increase their chances for promotion and advancement.​
While Coca-Cola was initially lauded for this bold diversity objective, it soon faced backlash from dissenters who argued that these new diversity goals were discriminatory. This led the initiative to come to an abrupt pause following the unexpected resignation of Gayton in April 2021. There was strong pushback from company shareholders who believed the initiative was violating the fiduciary responsibilities of the board since they feared potential lawsuits in violation of Title VII and IX of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, as well as the American Disabilities Act. Given the outside pressures and internal pushback, The Coca-Cola Company recently confirmed that this diversity initiative has never gone into effect, and it will not move forward.



The ultimate point is that neither AA or DEI, which are concepts that have been around since the civil rights movement but simply with different names, have made a huge impact on the makeup of corporate America. Or political America for that matter.

The somewhat more reasonable people who disagree with DEI realize that a lot of it probably is just toothless virtue signaling from an unchanging white male power structure, and they'll sinply roll their eyes at the occasional mandatory meeting or chief diversity officer appointment (who isn't given any real power.) The unreasonable ones make those highlighted statements like yours and blade's above, call literally everything they disagree with woke, and then vote for demagogue politicians who wink and nod to the White Genocide crowd while simultaneously trying to prevent students from learning the history of slavery and Jim Crow in this country.

I give you points for trying, but that example is horrendously extreme and likely illegal (30% of billable hours HAVE to go to black or “diverse” lawyers!!!) - so coca-cola getting “some concern” from shareholders (that they would likely get sued into oblivion) is not exactly a ringing endorsement of how DEI initiatives welcome healthy debate in corporate America.

If you are a normal employee of a large corporation today, there’s no allowance of healthy debate around the wisdom of these hiring initiatives, lest you be ostracized and/or fired. Yes, the trainings are superficial/ stupid (except a few extreme ones in the media which are downright offensive)- so why have them?
 
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Not ridiculous. The entire insurance and pharmaceutical industry is not really capitalistic. To some extent hospitals and doctors as well.

The premise of capitalism includes different entities competing to gain choices of consumers for their goods. A few monopolies who have lobbied hard enough so that the government forces collections (ie taxes) and then turns this money over to the corporations (medicare, Medicaid) is a perversion of capitalism to the extreme.
It's about as capitalistic as (the robber barons from) the Gilded Age. Corrupt as hell.
 
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The unreasonable ones make those highlighted statements like yours and blade's above, call literally everything they disagree with woke, and then vote for demagogue politicians who wink and nod to the White Genocide crowd while simultaneously trying to prevent students from learning the history of slavery and Jim Crow in this country.​

I know you like extreme hyperbole but really?

How does anything I said equate to “winking and nodding at the white genocide crowd?”

Why is opposition of CRT in grade school preventing students from learning the history of slavery?? the article I posted above did a good job explaining well that this is a fantasy.
 
Who allows united healthcare to operate with very little competition?

I don’t know about you but I have to get my healthcare through work and I have 2 sh*tty options to choose from. They are not the same options you have to choose from. Thats not capitalism.


Were the railroad barons of the 18th century capitalists? Do we have a choice of railroads? Do we have a choice of pro football leagues?

The reason you have a choice of 2 plans at work is because your employer made a capitalistic deal to get a discount. Insurance is all about pooling risk and cutting deals to pool that risk. United healthcare became apex capitalist by cutting the most deals with the most people. UHC either bought their competition or drove them out of business like any good capitalist should to. When the government steps in to stop this, capitalists cry foul, “you’re not pro-business!” Then they took advantage of their market power to raise prices, again, like a good capitalist should do. The most successful capitalists become monopolists (energy, tech, telecom, press, food, entertainment, retail, healthcare, transport/logistics). That is how capitalism works. Most people love capitalism until they don’t like it. Then they say “this is not capitalism.”
 
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I give you points for trying, but that example is horrendously extreme and likely illegal (30% of billable hours HAVE to go to black or “diverse” lawyers!!!) - so coca-cola getting “some concern” from shareholders (that they would likely get sued into oblivion) is not exactly a ringing endorsement of how DEI initiatives welcome healthy debate in corporate America.

This definitely was an example (at a major corporation, no less) where there was an initiative, honest debate, and push back. However, I suspect this is going to be one of those topics where you just 'no true scotsman' every example because, like I said earlier, you're incapable seeing anything even remotely related to DEI initiatives or AA through an objective lens.

If you are a normal employee of a large corporation today, there’s no allowance of healthy debate around the wisdom of these hiring initiatives, lest you be ostracized and/or fired. Yes, the trainings are superficial/ stupid (except a few extreme ones in the media which are downright offensive)- so why have them?

You keep parroting the line about being ostracized and fired like it's a fact, but you haven't established that whatsoever. Just like you didn't establish jack when you said average white and Asian men have "very low chances" of going to college or getting a job.

And I didn't say everyone thought DEI training is superficial or stupid. I said the more reasonable opponents are simply capable of ignoring it instead of say turning it into a capital case.

How does anything I said equate to “winking and nodding at the white genocide crowd?”

I guess you've never heard trump give a speech before.

Or seen what this fine Florida politico believes

The most popular cable news show host in America who's also one of the most anti-crt



Why is opposition of CRT in grade school preventing students from learning the history of slavery?? the article I posted above did a good job explaining well that this is a fantasy.

That article was really, really poorly argued. On the first point that CRT is in our schools, the author stated that academics had published papers suggesting that certain components of CRT be incorporated into primary or secondary education, and pointed to state DOEs having websites that maybe had some allusions to concepts within CRT.....but you know what they didn't do? Actually give a bunch of examples of CRT being taught in primary and secondary education.

As far as history, the fact that the author of that article wants "structural" or "systemic racism" erased from the vocabulary of history teaching is, to me (and probably a ton of professional historians), the definition of preventing students from learning the [full] history of slavery, or Jim Crow, or the civil rights movement. Someone's mind has got to be truly warped to to think you can teach those things without giving the context that all levers of American society, both private and public, political and economic, had a role in propagating inequality, and that just because the institution ended doesn't mean structural disadvantages resolved overnight as well.
 
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Who allows united healthcare to operate with very little competition?

I don’t know about you but I have to get my healthcare through work and I have 2 sh*tty options to choose from. They are not the same options you have to choose from. Thats not capitalism.

They’ve bought up all the competition. That is capitalism. No different than Amazon vs small local bookstores/any store or Starbucks vs your local coffee shop. You can cry government intervention all you want but what we have sure as heck isn’t socialized healthcare.

You can start your own insurance co tomorrow if you want and compete day and night with UH. Oh, you don’t have billions? Oh, no one is lobbying for you for free? Oh, no private equity dollars for you?

Call it whatever you want. This Sir, is American Capitalism at its finest. And it is crushing America to its core.
 
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Were the railroad barons of the 18th century capitalists? Do we have a choice of railroads?

The reason you have a choice of 2 plans at work is because your employer made a capitalistic deal to get a discount. Insurance is all about pooling risk and cutting deals to pool that risk. United healthcare became apex capitalist by cutting the most deals with the most people. UHC either bought their competition or drove them out of business like any good capitalist should to. Then they took advantage of their market power to raise prices, again, like a good capitalist should do. The most successful capitalists become monopolists (energy, tech, telecom, press, food, entertainment, retail, healthcare, transport/logistics). That is how capitalism works. Most people love capitalism until they don’t like it. Then they say “this is not capitalism.”
Yes but capitalism requires a free market. Healthcare is highly regulated by the government through the affordable care act. The government also is the largest payer by far in the market. This allows them to do things like reduce our professional fee while increasing the facility fees to put us at a disadvantage relative to large insurance companies and hospital systems
 
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Yes but capitalism requires a free market. Healthcare is highly regulated by the government through the affordable care act. The government also is the largest payer by far in the market. This allows them to do things like reduce our professional fee while increasing the facility fees to put us at a disadvantage relative to large insurance companies and hospital systems


Of course healthcare is regulated. By “free market”, do you mean pre-Flexner days? Pre-Medicare?
 
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Not ridiculous. The entire insurance and pharmaceutical industry is not really capitalistic. To some extent hospitals and doctors as well.

The premise of capitalism includes different entities competing to gain choices of consumers for their goods. A few monopolies who have lobbied hard enough so that the government forces collections (ie taxes) and then turns this money over to the corporations (medicare, Medicaid) is a perversion of capitalism to the extreme.

Alternatively, what we have with healthcare, Amazon, etc is in fact the end point for the capitalistic experiment. And it isn’t pretty.

Lots of different competitors competing for business? That sounds like what we used to have in many sectors. In capitalism what prevents deep pockets from buying up all the competition leaving 1 or 2 companies selling required products and charging whatever they want? Nothing.
 
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Vector 2 isnt a progressive socialist. He is a regressive socialist. I ask you to take 5 minutes and watch the video then make up your own mind.

 
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Of course healthcare is regulated. By “free market”, do you mean pre-Flexner days? Pre-Medicare?

I wonder if he's a fan of the regulations which prevent an army of British, German, Italian, Indian, and Chinese anesthesiologists from coming here and doing our jobs for half the cost.

Vector 2 isnt a progressive socialist. He is a regressive socialist.

Ah, at least we can finally do away with the pretense about who's casting the ad hominems around here. Also, Prager U sounds like it went underwent the same rigorous accreditation process as Trump University.
 
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Just like you didn't establish jack when you said average white and Asian men have "very low chances" of going to college or getting a job.




Quote from the last article:

“Statistical analyses of evidence produced in the litigation show that Harvard and UNC give Black students more than twice the admissions boost that economically disadvantaged or first-generation college students receive.”

If you think a poor white or Asian kid can easily overcome that type of policy (that a rich kid who happens to be black gets TWICE the boost than a poor kid of another skin tone), I’m not sure what to say.
 
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I guess you've never heard trump give a speech before.

Or seen what this fine Florida politico believes

And how does Trump or Gaetz have anything to do with what we are arguing? I don’t support either of them and never claimed to. I don’t claim you stand for everything any liberal-leaning politician ever said.
 
Were the railroad barons of the 18th century capitalists? Do we have a choice of railroads? Do we have a choice of pro football leagues?

The reason you have a choice of 2 plans at work is because your employer made a capitalistic deal to get a discount. Insurance is all about pooling risk and cutting deals to pool that risk. United healthcare became apex capitalist by cutting the most deals with the most people. UHC either bought their competition or drove them out of business like any good capitalist should to. When the government steps in to stop this, capitalists cry foul, “you’re not pro-business!” Then they took advantage of their market power to raise prices, again, like a good capitalist should do. The most successful capitalists become monopolists (energy, tech, telecom, press, food, entertainment, retail, healthcare, transport/logistics). That is how capitalism works. Most people love capitalism until they don’t like it. Then they say “this is not capitalism.”

It’s all semantics. If you want to call it crony capitalism resulting in monopolies, that is fine with me.

That being said, it’s not really a brand of capitalism that works well. And the answer isn’t more government intervention + massive programs (which is already the root of why things are so wasteful and why this system developed)— it’s smarter targeted regulation of the capitalism by encouraging direct payments for services/goods (people need skin in the game directly) and eliminating useless middlemen / administrators who suck alll the money out of the system.
 
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It’s all semantics. If you want to call it crony capitalism resulting in monopolies, that is fine with me.

That being said, it’s not really a brand of capitalism that works well. And the answer isn’t more government intervention + massive programs (which is already the root of why things are so wasteful and why this system developed)— it’s smarter targeted regulation of the capitalism by encouraging direct payments for services/goods (people need skin in the game directly) and eliminating useless middlemen / administrators who suck alll the money out of the system.
Except that the middlemen have bought themselves a ton of politicians, on both sides.
 
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This article does a great job....of highlighting the white privilege that exists at management level in corporations. What it doesn't show is that DEI or AA toward URM are preventing Asian advancement.


And our analysis found that white professionals are about twice as likely to be promoted into management as their Asian American counterparts.​

Indeed, your thesis that AA toward URM is the problem falls apart when one sees that whites have double the promotion rate. Actually, lack of DEI towards Asians sounds like the issue.


Great argument to make sure that the most disadvantaged URMs who need the most help are getting it. Not an argument to do away with race-conscious admissions.

Quote from the last article:

“Statistical analyses of evidence produced in the litigation show that Harvard and UNC give Black students more than twice the admissions boost that economically disadvantaged or first-generation college students receive.”

If you think a poor white or Asian kid can easily overcome that type of policy (that a rich kid who happens to be black gets TWICE the boost than a poor kid of another skin tone), I’m not sure what to say.

Again, let's look at what you wrote:


I feel bad for poor white and Asian kids of average ability who have very low chances in education, workplaces etc today even when they do put in 3x the work​

To me, I think "very low" means like 10%, but even if I'm being charitable to you and say it's 50%, are you telling me that only 1 out of 2 poor white/Asian kids of average ability, who are putting in 3x the work [of presumably all those underachieving URMs you're referring to], and thus probably have decent GPAs/SATs.....are getting into college or getting jobs after graduating?

Because feel free to clarify what you wrote before moving on to defend something you didn't write using a bunch of random links.

But wrt to that last link, no one's disputing the relative boost that can come from race, but you highlighting "TWICE the boost" doesn't really hit so hard in relation to the absolute numbers (like the more than double population representation in colleges or the fact that the Asian matriculant percentage has still been going up at Harvard over the years).

figure-reas-2.png


figure-reas-1.png


One of the lowest represented (and likely poorer) Asian subgroups (Hmong) still has a higher college enrollment rate than the average college enrollment of *all* Hispanics.
 
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And how does Trump or Gaetz have anything to do with what we are arguing? I don’t support either of them and never claimed to. I don’t claim you stand for everything any liberal-leaning politician ever said.

You were the one who brought up the voting booth as a way for conservatives to oppose woke, CRT, DEI, etc. I pointed out the true statement which is that the conservative politicians and pundits who are most opposed to these policies 1. Do a ton of fearmongering/engage in misinformation regarding the scope of the "problem" in an effort to scare and rile up their base 2. Make up a high percentage of politicians and pundits who believe in/espouse great replacement/white genocide theories.

People who want to make anti-dei /AA policies their single issue (or maybe even top 3 issue) should be wary of the baggage that comes with the politicians most likely to get you what you want.
 
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You were the one who brought up the voting booth as a way for conservatives to oppose woke, CRT, DEI, etc. I pointed out the true statement which is that the conservative politicians and pundits who are most opposed to these policies 1. Do a ton of fearmongering/engage in misinformation regarding the scope of the "problem" in an effort to scare and rile up their base 2. Make up a high percentage of politicians and pundits who believe in/espouse great replacement/white genocide theories.

People who want to make anti-dei /AA policies their single issue (or maybe even top 3 issue) should be wary of the baggage that comes with the politicians most likely to get you what you want.

I think pretty much all the republicans oppose DEI policies and CRT in primary schools, despite democrats crying that it’s “not a real issue.”
You just happened to pick the most odious characters in the party that you could think of, to discredit the opposing viewpoint on a specific topic by association; which really isn’t an argument.
 
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