Obama to increase medicare reimbursement??

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(1 and 3) Scrapping Medicare and Medicaid and starting over would require a 1,000 page bill you say you're against. Scrapping Medicare and Medicaid would make access worse, not better. Impractical - good luck finding a politician willing to scrap Medicare and Medicaid. Non-starter that would wind up, again, doing NOTHING.
(2) We already have a two-tiered system. Poor folk and even lower middle class folk without insurance never get healthcare until they show up at the ER, get a bandaid slapped on, and a swift kick in the butt back out the door. Then, twenty years after untreated chronic hypertension and hyperlipidemia, they get on Medicare and require a $100,000 bypass surgery for coronary blockage. Not exactly saving us money or increasing access either, is it?
(3) The issues must be dealt with together. You can't increase regulation of insurance companies without also increasing the pool, because insurance premiums would sky-rocket. You can't increase the pool without mandating coverage, because there will always be a few who "hold out" to let all the rest of us pick up the tab. Trying to pass things piecemeal could wind up making the problem worse rather than better. Healthcare reform is a complicated topic. That's why it requires a sizeable bill. Opposing healthcare reform based on spending is ludicrous on the face of it. If we DON"T reform, healthcare spending is going to break our government.
(4) This is exactly what Pres. Obama has agreed to consider.
(5) Most people identified as smokers do pay higher premiums already, at least if they are buying insurance independently. Some people overweight can't help it - it's called genetics. How do you encourage personal responsibility with reference to health? Mandate insurance coverage so people have to pay something for their healthcare and it has value to them. The opposite is to let people think healthcare is free because they don't have to have coverage, so they do whatever they please. Further, reform of the system to focus more on primary care instead of treating it like a joke in our nation's medical schools and hospitals would go a long way toward encouraging better prevention. It would be great if people could be counseled about risk factors. Primary care doctors do not have the time nor the incentive to do so. Focusing on and funding the primary care "medical home" model would allow people to have access to ancillary primary care personal, NPs, nutritionists, etc, who can take the time to counsel them about basic prevention. This can free primary care MDs/DOs up to serve as executive managers of patients' overall health. Ideally, the primary care physician would be a fully-informed coordinator seeking specific consults. As opposed to the status quo, where a patient sees five different specialists taking the patient in five different directions and the primary care doc has no clue what is going on. The specialists don't know what the other specialists are doing either. That equals duplication, unnecessary treatments, mismanagement, etc.

Completely agree with you. Wish more people would think the way you do.

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If you're questioning the validity of mammography, paps, and fecal occult blood as valuable early screening tools, then you and I must be in two different universes. I know too many peoples' lives who've been saved by each.


No one is questioning whether preventative care might save lives, it probably will. However, it will be expensive. Learn statistical terms like NNT and come back to discuss this. The problem is the fairy dust assumption politicians keep spewing out about preventative care SAVING MONEY. No study I have seen has ever proven this assumption, and multiple studies have shown that it it fact COSTS money, sometimes a lot, for preventative care.
 
If you're questioning the validity of mammography, paps, and fecal occult blood as valuable early screening tools, then you and I must be in two different universes. I know too many peoples' lives who've been saved by each.

:confused: Perhaps you are a concrete thinker and cannot see implications or correlations. Perhaps you have neither thought about, researched, nor taken the time to self educate on these things. Perhaps comprehension is a problem. I don't know, but it's not the diagnostic validity of these tests that is in question -- it's the cost efficacy at current pricing levels. Look it up.

There are working models in every other industrialized country on the planet. Some of them are working just rosey. England, say. Plus, if we were always sure of every single detail of some big undertaking before we did it, as a practical matter, we'd never change anything. Don't try to dismiss all this as MSNBC talking points. I watch FOX News and CNN just as much if not more so. I am not an ideologue. I am not a liberal. Thought and theory without proof? You have no proof that the system being described would not work, do you? Show me the irrefutable evidence that healthcare in England leads to lower quality of care for its citizens, lower pay for physicians, or more "out of control" healthcare costs compared to the US. Oh, whoops, actually you can't, because those statements would be "thought and theory without proof," naturally having "no merit" to you. :laugh: In the words of Ebenezer, I believe I'll retire to bedlam.



OK, before we go down this path I want to make sure that I am clear on your position first:

- other countries, including England, do better at disease management due to their payment structure

- physicians in other countries, say England, are financially rewarded the same -- if not better -- than these lowly former colonies

- it's OK for the feds to jump in and annex 16% of our economy, f'ing a sizable portion of its citizenry in the process, all the while trampling both property rights and rule of law, and abrogating contracts on a grand scale.... because of some political and self serving reasoning and out of some sense of elitist paternal authority?

Perhaps Arkham is better place for you to retire to. :laugh:


I'm very serious. All these claims about preventive medicine are hog-wash and unsubstantiated and until there is some data behind it, wishful thinking.

And while I can't speak for MOHS_01, personally, it's not that mammos/pap/colonoscopys aren't worthwhile (FOB/DRE/PSA are really a waste of time) they are not the panacea of cost savings and preventative medicine they are made out to be.

Feel free to speak for me -- you get it. It's not a difficult concept or anything that really requires much effort, or time, to acquire the information that is out there on the matter. Failure to do so speaks to either an unbelievable intellectual laziness -- or a deceitful ideologue. I'm not sure what camp we are dealing with currently.

And Blue -- most of us are aware that there is more to primary care than just preventative medicine; the problem is that is what is getting the most play time right now.
 
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No one is questioning whether preventative care might save lives, it probably will. However, it will be expensive. Learn statistical terms like NNT and come back to discuss this. The problem is the fairy dust assumption politicians keep spewing out about preventative care SAVING MONEY. No study I have seen has ever proven this assumption, and multiple studies have shown that it it fact COSTS money, sometimes a lot, for preventative care.

So I guess everybody should stop doing car maintenance and wait until black smoke starts pouring out from underneath their hood to go to the service station. I'm sure that will save money compared to regular maintenance care too, right? Anybody can pull out contradictory statistics and studies. I'm talking common sense here.
 
- it's OK for the feds to jump in and annex 16% of our economy, f'ing a sizable portion of its citizenry in the process, all the while trampling both property rights and rule of law, and abrogating contracts on a grand scale.... because of some political and self serving reasoning and out of some sense of elitist paternal authority?

This is my problem with this whole debate... medicine is 16% of our economy, and is being treated like any other good or service, and that is what is f'd up in my mind. Medicine currently is, and those arguing against a government run/single payer insurance industry look to keep it being, a MONEY MAKING industry first, and a industry of patient care second. Patients shouldn't be looked at as clients, they shouldn't be treated as cash machines. Its bs that it has become such a corporate industry and not a service industry.
 
:confused: Perhaps you are a concrete thinker and cannot see implications or correlations. Perhaps you have neither thought about, researched, nor taken the time to self educate on these things. Perhaps comprehension is a problem. I don't know, but it's not the diagnostic validity of these tests that is in question -- it's the cost efficacy at current pricing levels. Look it up.

Cost efficacy? Does that include putting someone through unnecessary advanced disease states and invasive therapies rather than catching something early and using friendlier/safer treatment options. Perhaps compassion is a problem. Perhaps common sense is a problem. :shrug: Honey, don't worry - You don't need a mammogram. It will be much CHEAPER to let you get breast cancer first and then undergo a mastectomy and radiation (even though it really won't be cheaper). Plus, we wouldn't want you to miss all that fun of a late diagnosis and all the extra goodies for showing up late to the party. People who believe that belong in Arkham.
 
If you consider Biden unqualified, well, besides not being a war hero (which doesn't qualify you to be POTUS), he has just as much public office and foreign policy (even more there) experience than McCain does. Biden is more qualified and much more appropriate in his role than Chaney was as VP, and probably moreso than Gore was.
I was merely commenting on both of their idiocy and making fun of his PR gaff from the Olympics.
 
So I guess everybody should stop doing car maintenance and wait until black smoke starts pouring out from underneath their hood to go to the service station. I'm sure that will save money compared to regular maintenance care too, right? Anybody can pull out contradictory statistics and studies. I'm talking common sense here.

No, you're not. You're talking some pie in the sky theory with no substantive evidence to base it on. In fact, the evidence that is out there seems to contradict your theory -- at least when it comes to most preventative measures and screening tests.

This is my problem with this whole debate... medicine is 16% of our economy, and is being treated like any other good or service, and that is what is f'd up in my mind. Medicine currently is, and those arguing against a government run/single payer insurance industry look to keep it being, a MONEY MAKING industry first, and a industry of patient care second. Patients shouldn't be looked at as clients, they shouldn't be treated as cash machines. Its bs that it has become such a corporate industry and not a service industry.

Comrade, the provision of healthcare is a good and service industry. Outside of the limited realm of public health and communicable disease, it is a private consumption good or service. Please make an effort to refute that with reason -- taking particular care to differentiate "healthcare" or disease state consequences with those that result from any other unfortunate event. I eagerly await....

Cost efficacy? Does that include putting someone through unnecessary advanced disease states and invasive therapies rather than catching something early and using friendlier/safer treatment options. Perhaps compassion is a problem. Perhaps common sense is a problem. :shrug: Honey, don't worry - You don't need a mammogram. It will be much CHEAPER to let you get breast cancer first and then undergo a mastectomy and radiation (even though it really won't be cheaper). Plus, we wouldn't want you to miss all that fun of a late diagnosis and all the extra goodies for showing up late to the party. People who believe that belong in Arkham.

Explain to me again where your "common sense" is backed up with proof or evidence.

After you are able to blow holes in my side of the argument with your rigorous reason, sound logic, and, of course, substantiated by the myriads of studies supporting your position :rolleyes:..... you can then explain to me how "compassion" can materially support or subsidize any system. As for myself -- I likely give away more charity care in any given month than you contribute to the GDP in any given year. :eek:

One last thought since you seemingly cannot connect A to B without having your hand held: if the cost efficacy benefit analysis is not advantageous for an intervention / procedure / process... but the efficacy portion is sound enough.... carry the one... :idea: Oh yeah, the problem must be the cost point. There are two variables in this equation -- you can either increase the efficacy or decrease the cost in order to create a positive effect on the outcome being measured. What you cannot do, however, is boost the payments for the measures that are already shown to be poor from a cost effectiveness vantage....... then there is the whole "compared to what" argument, whereby decreases in the reimbursement for any given intervention raises its relative value for the purpose of assigning cost efficacy utility... but let's keep this to simple "common sense" and "compassion" and not let those pesky little things like facts... or math... or those silly numbers get in the way of a good statist push......:smack:
 
Cost efficacy? Does that include putting someone through unnecessary advanced disease states and invasive therapies rather than catching something early and using friendlier/safer treatment options. Perhaps compassion is a problem. Perhaps common sense is a problem. :shrug: Honey, don't worry - You don't need a mammogram. It will be much CHEAPER to let you get breast cancer first and then undergo a mastectomy and radiation (even though it really won't be cheaper). Plus, we wouldn't want you to miss all that fun of a late diagnosis and all the extra goodies for showing up late to the party. People who believe that belong in Arkham.

The problem with common sense is it isn't that common. stop changing your argument (if you forgot you said this) and trying to make those who disagree with you feel guilty or look evil.

Simple - more primary care providers, more early interventions, fewer late and more costly interventions because nobody bothered to give a rip about primary care when it would have done some good. .


I've not seen anyone In this thread say prevenitive care is something we shouldn't do but were correctly pointed out that your assmption that prevenitive care saves money is false.
 
These threads are filled with some of the rudest, strangest people around. Why does anybody waste their time on here? Seemingly nobody can have a discussion without resorting to childish temperamental rants. Now, I know why I haven't been on here in about 6 months.
 
As for myself -- I likely give away more charity care in any given month than you contribute to the GDP in any given year. :eek:

One last thought since you seemingly cannot connect A to B without having your hand held.

What does this accomplish? How does any of this contribute to your argument? What kind of low life supposed attending lurks around on a "Student Doctor" forum and bashes students? Give me a break.
 
The problem with common sense is it isn't that common. stop changing your argument (if you forgot you said this) and trying to make those who disagree with you feel guilty or look evil.

Is this an argument? If it is, I can't find the point of it. All of my comments are substantive. They have no personal attacks in them. It appears I'm not the one who needs guidance in terms of how to formulate arguments or post on a forum. However, some others do.

MODERATORS - Why do you allow this kind of nonsense and rancor instead of substantive discussion?
 
Is this an argument? If it is, I can't find the point of it. All of my comments are substantive. They have no personal attacks in them. It appears I'm not the one who needs guidance in terms of how to formulate arguments or post on a forum. However, some others do. ?

Your comments have some substence but your making many inncorrect assumptions that MOHs has already alluded to the studies which debunk your assertions. By far and away smoking cessation is the best prevenitive medicine you can perform but the least succesful. Nejm has a well balanced overview on if prevenitive medicine is the wonder it's made up to be.

And since missed the point; I was getting on you from swapping from "prevenitive medicine saves money" to "you don't care about your pts if you don't perform prevenitive medicine" When challenged on your cost savings assertions.
 
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So when did I miss he land breaking study that primary care and prevenitive medicine led to long term cost savings?

I'm an internist, so I'm aware of what goes on and where the value of a good PCP is. I'm not bashing PCP or primary care or most preventive medicine, but I do get tired of all the dogma that is being thrown around that is simply as baseless assumption that preventive medicine is going to save money (and the world)

Perhaps the confusion stems from the way you lumped primary care and preventive medicine together as if they were one and the same. They arent.
 
Comrade, the provision of healthcare is a good and service industry. Outside of the limited realm of public health and communicable disease, it is a private consumption good or service. Please make an effort to refute that with reason -- taking particular care to differentiate "healthcare" or disease state consequences with those that result from any other unfortunate event. I eagerly await....

I understand that the current setup of our health care system is a good and service industry, but I see no reason why health or recieving care for your health should be monetarily linked... people should have access to care based on need, not on worth or on what they can afford to pay. I see it no different than police, fire, schooling, national protection (military)... This is opinion, not necessarily fact, and people have opinions on both sides of this. All my arguments have been consistent with this ideology. I am a fan of the free market in terms of areas not linked to rights as laid out in the constitution/bill of rights (I see the right to life as a right to health, again, my interpretation... flame me all you want for it). TV's, Cars, Housing, Hot Pockets... charge whatever people are willing to pay for it (this is in response to your "clever" comrade insult... typical excellent debate tactics btw). While I understand the business aspect of it, and as long as it is a business and in this model, I am sure I will necessarily function under it, but the idea of not accepting patients, or not treating patients, or postponing treatment of patients all because they either don't have insurance or have the "wrong" insurance (meaning one you don't accept or doesn't pay for what they need) is part of how doctors have lost their prestigue and makes me sick with how our system functions (or doesn't function). STOP TREATING MEDICINE LIKE A GOOD, stop looking at drugs as marketable profit makers (comercials, drug reps, etc), stop looking at devices and imaging equipment in the same light and model as TV's... stop having sales reps use marketing tactics to influence doctors to prescribe drugs (which does have plenty of evidence that sales reps do influence doctors, even doctors think so... I saw a study, can't quote it, but polling doctors, only 15% or so thought that drug reps actually influenced them personally in any way (and most of them only in a small way), but those same doctors thought that about 80% of other doctors were influenced by reps, most in a large amount... so doctors can see it happens, but the god complex makes the oblivious to their own influence). And I know this is all very idealistic, and in reality will not occur any time soon. How they necessarily achieve this vision is also not set in stone, and any of the models used in other countries to achieve "universal" coverage could potentially work better than our system (Be it the Bismark model that the AMA loves, the National model that PNHP loves, or Beveridge model that seems to be more of what I am advocating in this post) --- [Thanks Stitch in this thread for naming these plans for me... i knew how they worked, I just didn't have a name for them http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=584868 ]

And to answer the question above, I guess the VA could be considered an example of doctors in public service and healthcare not being a private consumption good and service. County hospitals or public university hospitals might too fall under a similar idea, but not entirely
 
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What does this accomplish? How does any of this contribute to your argument? What kind of low life supposed attending lurks around on a "Student Doctor" forum and bashes students? Give me a break.

Part of the job tasked to a senior -- be it an attending, resident, fellow, or otherwise -- is to educate and instruct... to address and rectify ignorance before it becomes something worse. It's a rough world out there kid... ;)

Oh... and it was in response to this:

Cost efficacy? Does that include putting someone through unnecessary advanced disease states and invasive therapies rather than catching something early and using friendlier/safer treatment options. Perhaps compassion is a problem. Perhaps common sense is a problem. :shrug: Honey, don't worry - You don't need a mammogram. It will be much CHEAPER to let you get breast cancer first and then undergo a mastectomy and radiation (even though it really won't be cheaper). Plus, we wouldn't want you to miss all that fun of a late diagnosis and all the extra goodies for showing up late to the party. People who believe that belong in Arkham.

Is this an argument? If it is, I can't find the point of it. All of my comments are substantive. They have no personal attacks in them. It appears I'm not the one who needs guidance in terms of how to formulate arguments or post on a forum. However, some others do.

MODERATORS - Why do you allow this kind of nonsense and rancor instead of substantive discussion?

See the bolded...... I have no problem with a little "hey *******," style banter -- it's really not mean spirited.

Beyond that -- for someone claiming such "substantive arguments" -- I have yet to see the first linked source. The "English system is so good... and their doctors are so well paid" ought to be an easy enough place to start. The problem is this: what you will find when attempting to back up that position is nothing more than a litany of articles on the we complaining about the NHS, income surveys that should give you reason for pause, and a plethora of personal accounts on the personal tragedies and shortcomings of the British system. There is not perfect healthcare system in existence -- because we are ultimately dealing with an issue of scarcity. The law of scarcity cannot be avoided, eluded, or somehow outwitted. It must be accepted and dealt with openly -- with frank and honest discussion. Glittering generalities will not cut it... nor will tugging at some social justice heartstrings.
 
So I guess everybody should stop doing car maintenance and wait until black smoke starts pouring out from underneath their hood to go to the service station. I'm sure that will save money compared to regular maintenance care too, right? Anybody can pull out contradictory statistics and studies. I'm talking common sense here.

Just because something sounds like it SHOULD be right does not make it so. Just because you think really, really, REALLY strongly the preventative car should save money does not make it actually happen. The facts are that unlike cars, people are not mechanical things created my humans. Since cars are man-made, and have only existed for 100ish years, they require man-made maintenance to function. However, mankind has lived for many many years without "healthcare." Statistically, once you take care of childhood vaccinations, give antibiotics for severe bacterial infections, prevent deaths in childbirth, and provide basic nutrition, most humans will live well into their 70s without ANY preventative care.

Commonsense-wise if you are honest from a statistical point of view this should be apparent. Just because medical students drink the hopey-changey cool-aid does not change the fact that while preventative care may save lives, it will not save money.
 
I understand that the current setup of our health care system is a good and service industry, but I see no reason why health or recieving care for your health should be monetarily linked... people should have access to care based on need, not on worth or on what they can afford to pay. I see it no different than police, fire, schooling, national protection (military)...

OK --here's what I like about you: you're intellectually honest and have at least made an effort to understand and explain your position. Of course you know I do not agree -- and here's why:

It distills down to what is the appropriate role of government in a free society and what is the appropriate relation between citizen and state. Fire and police serve to protect you from an external threat imposed upon you or your property by another. If someone's house is burning, it places yours at risk. Likewise, if someone is going to rape, steal, murder, or otherwise violate your person or property they pose an external threat to you. The military serves the same purpose. The same argument can be made for communicable disease and public health efforts, but Uncle Charlie's cancer, diabetes, heart disease, or most medical conditions does not meet these requirements. It may hurt Charlie, his family, his friends, and his employer, but it does not endanger me or mine if I don't fall into that circle. I should not have my property involuntarily confiscated under threat of imprisonment at the barrel of a gun to pay for Charlie's life long smoking, drinking, or Twinkie and Ho-Ho habits.

Further, those of us who are currently neck deep in the system run the risk of having the rules changed mid-game due to some political winds and misguided social justice BS. You do realize that advocating a government takeover is in direct violation of our intellectual property rights, correct? You may as well advocate for the federalization of all land in the country... people could live on it when they cannot afford to now... or food can be grown on it that they cannot afford to purchase now. You can see where this is going.



... (this is in response to your "clever" comrade insult... typical excellent debate tactics btw).

Jesus H.... what is it with all of the debate nerds in here? Worrying more about decorum than substance? :D

.... STOP TREATING MEDICINE LIKE A GOOD, stop looking at drugs as marketable profit makers (comercials, drug reps, etc), stop looking at devices and imaging equipment in the same light and model as TV's... stop having sales reps use marketing tactics to influence doctors to prescribe drugs (which does have plenty of evidence that sales reps do influence doctors, even doctors think so... I saw a study, can't quote it, but polling doctors, only 15% or so thought that drug reps actually influenced them personally in any way (and most of them only in a small way), but those same doctors thought that about 80% of other doctors were influenced by reps, most in a large amount... so doctors can see it happens, but the god complex makes the oblivious to their own influence). And I know this is all very idealistic, and in reality will not occur any time soon. How they necessarily achieve this vision is also not set in stone, and any of the models used in other countries to achieve "universal" coverage could potentially work better than our system (Be it the Bismark model that the AMA loves, the National model that PNHP loves, or Beveridge model that seems to be more of what I am advocating in this post) --- [Thanks Stitch in this thread for naming these plans for me... i knew how they worked, I just didn't have a name for them http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=584868 ]

OK then -- why don't we throw up several pilot sites around the country and see if it really makes a difference? Why must we f' everyone else over just because some people "think" they have a better way of doing things? The burden of proof always falls upon the challenging opinion.

BTW, that's also why a good number of us don't have the time of day for a drug rep... and monitor our prescribing costs.


And to answer the question above, I guess the VA could be considered an example of doctors in public service and healthcare not being a private consumption good and service. County hospitals or public university hospitals might too fall under a similar idea, but not entirely

Not entirely. The VA is an employed situation for the most part. Those providers who practice within their walls either volunteer (no pay at all -- I'm one of those *no compassion my ass*) or they are willing employees of the system. If the government wanted to throw up those clinics all over the country -- without raising my taxes to do so -- more power to them. Let's separate the wheat from the chaff and go from there. Let us see what kind of quality, compassion, and timely care is awarded to those who expect others to pay for it... and when there are fewer consequences for not providing convenient service.
 
Cost efficacy? Does that include putting someone through unnecessary advanced disease states and invasive therapies rather than catching something early and using friendlier/safer treatment options. Perhaps compassion is a problem. Perhaps common sense is a problem. :shrug: Honey, don't worry - You don't need a mammogram. It will be much CHEAPER to let you get breast cancer first and then undergo a mastectomy and radiation (even though it really won't be cheaper). Plus, we wouldn't want you to miss all that fun of a late diagnosis and all the extra goodies for showing up late to the party. People who believe that belong in Arkham.

The reason why they jumped on you for changing your argument is that you did. The entire issue of the healthcare crisis wasn't, isn't, and never will be about the suffering and value of human life. It's simple, coldly about money.
 
Not one of you is going to change a thing through all your efforts on here. Obama either has the votes in the House or he doesn't. Right now, he doesn't, or they would have made the move already. Despite some of you with your big egos, like old MOHS educating the entire world and financing the entire American healthcare system through his grandiose charity, they exist in a whole different realm of power from where you do. None of you, or me, could get within viewing distance of Pres. Obama, much less bend his ear. It's a tough world. Get used to it. Even a poor naive medical student (who is, for the record, neither poor nor naive) can see that. The healthcare argument encompasses more than one facet. It is not "changing the argument" to talk about a healthcare system that both works and saves as much money as possible. The two will compete against each other, and compromise will have to be found. While no plan is perfect, and I sure as hell haven't seen any of you geniuses propose a better idea, sometimes changes must be made, even though all the old coots go along kicking and screaming because they want things "the way they used to be."
 
OK --here's what I like about you: you're intellectually honest and have at least made an effort to understand and explain your position. Of course you know I do not agree -- and here's why: .
Why thank you... you aren't too bad yourself ;)


It distills down to what is the appropriate role of government in a free society and what is the appropriate relation between citizen and state. Fire and police serve to protect you from an external threat imposed upon you or your property by another. If someone's house is burning, it places yours at risk. Likewise, if someone is going to rape, steal, murder, or otherwise violate your person or property they pose an external threat to you. The military serves the same purpose. The same argument can be made for communicable disease and public health efforts, but Uncle Charlie's cancer, diabetes, heart disease, or most medical conditions does not meet these requirements. It may hurt Charlie, his family, his friends, and his employer, but it does not endanger me or mine if I don't fall into that circle. I should not have my property involuntarily confiscated under threat of imprisonment at the barrel of a gun to pay for Charlie's life long smoking, drinking, or Twinkie and Ho-Ho habits.

These are valid concerns, and it really depends on how much you consider the health of the population and the costs associated with it related to you. I have a broader view of where that falls, and believe that improving and provide health for all people will benefit society and the economy, because eliminating the dependence on work for healthcare (which I admit can be accomplished in many ways) will allow people more freedom to change jobs, preventing individuals from being held hostage into their job for fear of losing benefits or, in regards to preexisting conditions, not being able to reobtain insurance.... As far as the excuss of people not wanting to cover other peoples bad behaviors, which do have a significant impact on health but is not the entire picture... some people just get diseases idiopathically... I really don't have a good answer to it... I mean, we know that outlawing something won't really work (see: Alcohol in the 1920's, every other drug of abuse), and people already suffer higher premiums for insurance for smoking and pay out their arse for it (thanks to taxes) and it still do it anyway. This argument might actually derail the whole thing in my mind, but I still feel the social imperative outweighs it. So maybe I am a communist.

Further, those of us who are currently neck deep in the system run the risk of having the rules changed mid-game due to some political winds and misguided social justice BS. You do realize that advocating a government takeover is in direct violation of our intellectual property rights, correct? You may as well advocate for the federalization of all land in the country... people could live on it when they cannot afford to now... or food can be grown on it that they cannot afford to purchase now. You can see where this is going.

Change is tough. People will always oppose change and will make claims that it is in direct violation of rights. Slave owners went to war over this (amoung other things), because slaves were their property. Women's right to vote. Desegregation of everything. Interracial marriage. We are currently going through it with Gay Marriage. Now, I am not claiming this is on the same magnitude as those things... and I coulda claimed the same thing with social security and medicare, but people still oppose those social programs. But sticking with something that does not work (or, as I continue to say, actually works exactly how it should in its current setup, it just isn't set up to work properly for the actual service claiming to be provided) just because it will f' up the people currently in the system isn't a very good argument. I understand the slippery slope argument, and do agree that these type of arguments always boil down to where is that line drawn... when the libertarian side gains ground, those on the left say it will lead to unrestrained anarchy where corporations will take advantage of the people (see banking restrictions or lack there of) and when the socialist side gains ground, those on the right say it will lead to an authoritarian state with no freedoms. I don't no, nor will I advocate the federalization of land (but more options for homeless individuals could be nice...) nor federalization of food supply (but again, making sure what we are being fed is done so safely is nice, and again, those pesky homeless individuals...)



Jesus H.... what is it with all of the debate nerds in here? Worrying more about decorum than substance? :D

How dare you take the lords name in vain... :eek: actually im agnostic :D
I did feel kinda nerdy writting that... Although i threw it in there slight handedly, clearly caring more about decorum than substance... Papa Bear taught you well young grasshopper... I do get annoyed when arguments stop being about substance and boil down to mud flinging... ours hasn't gotten there yet.

OK then -- why don't we throw up several pilot sites around the country and see if it really makes a difference? Why must we f' everyone else over just because some people "think" they have a better way of doing things? The burden of proof always falls upon the challenging opinion.

I mean, I am all for a good experiment, especially when they involve millions of peoples lives. I would love for this to actually be a possibility. Logistically it would be a nightmare, and for any validity in these types of pilot programs, they would probably have to run for like 25-50 years to see if any of these preventative meassures actually lead to longterm results. But I would welcome this, hope that all my preconceived notions pan out, and probably die before I found out if they did. Then we probably would have equivocal results (or one costing less, but another having better results, or one have a two tier system with excellent care for those who can get it, and the other having good/great care for all/most, and then argue about which is more fair). And it is impossible for both sides to co-exist at the same location (how can you have a total free market system like proposed on http://www.freemarketcure.com which is a site you would probably like and support and a NHS type system?). And these are the likely result, because we can see most of these systems in practice across the globe, except a pure free market system. Maybe we should allow Texas, what is another dark red state to do that, and allow California and the Entire North East to have variations of the NHS or Canadian systems, maybe give some swing states like Florida and Ohio the Swiss system... would limit buying over state lines though... and totally mess you up when you travel between states, which is more common for most people than traveling between countries.

BTW, that's also why a good number of us don't have the time of day for a drug rep... and monitor our prescribing costs.

While I commend you for your apparent stand against drug companies, you know you are in the minority amoungst your peers. And it still doesn't prevent them from Direct to Consumer advertising, which doesn't happen in pretty much any other country (as far as I am aware, but I admit I am not fully versed on this subject). Billions of healthcare cost dollars being burnt on nothing to do with providing care (I mean, these companies have to be reaping monetarily from these ads cause you know they aren't doing it as PSA's, and probably making out like bandits on it, so its not billions of dollars out of their budgets, its billions of dollars out of the "consumers" pockets... cause if they didn't influence the drug the patient got, again wouldn't be done, but it does, somehow).


Not entirely. The VA is an employed situation for the most part. Those providers who practice within their walls either volunteer (no pay at all -- I'm one of those *no compassion my ass*) or they are willing employees of the system. If the government wanted to throw up those clinics all over the country -- without raising my taxes to do so -- more power to them. Let's separate the wheat from the chaff and go from there. Let us see what kind of quality, compassion, and timely care is awarded to those who expect others to pay for it... and when there are fewer consequences for not providing convenient service.

I am not arguing that doctors shouldn't be employed. Unless I misunderstood your original comment, which is possible, VA doctors are a public service for the troops, regardless if they volunteer or are employeed. I guess you were more referring to public health types of issues, where as I guess your examples of reportable diseases and public health initiatives are the only examples in our nation that I can think of.

Yeah, so, good talk. On one hand, there is a definate dialog and exchange of ideas. On the other hand, its like we are both banging our heads against the wall because we have boiled down to largely an idealogistic argument that there really can't be an answer or resolution to (unless there could be an experiement run that could definately prove one greater than the other, but with so many confounders and so much time needed, not possible... I mean, people debate whether the New Deal saved us from the great depression or extended the great depression... I mean, the depression ended [during ww2... coincidence or causationally?]...)
 
... I mean, people debate whether the New Deal saved us from the great depression or extended the great depression... I mean, the depression ended [during ww2... coincidence or causationally?]...)

I give... I believe that the nationalization of healthcare financing is quite possibly worse in some senses than its total socialization, but I am unlikely to get you to agree on that either... at least at this time. I would be willing to wager than your views change significantly as the years go by.;)

But for the above ---- :eek:

Are they still teaching that these days? What measure or metric would you like to base the argument that either the New Deal or WWII did either of those things?
 
I give... I believe that the nationalization of healthcare financing is quite possibly worse in some senses than its total socialization, but I am unlikely to get you to agree on that either... at least at this time. I would be willing to wager than your views change significantly as the years go by.;)

But for the above ---- :eek:

Are they still teaching that these days? What measure or metric would you like to base the argument that either the New Deal or WWII did either of those things?


lol, they aren't really teaching much of anything these days...
like I said, there really isn't a measure or metric for many things out there that have a major impact, such as what health care financing system is superior to others... and regardless of what data and what evidence is out there, people on both sides of the argument will see what they want from it... some see the NHS/Canadian/whatever as much better than what we have in the US and the only option to saving healthcare in our country... others see the US changing from what we currently have to any of those systems as the end of our society as we see it... likely it result is somewhere in the middle... neither way will have apoctolyptic results and either way will still have its supporters and detractors. Speaking in extreme tones (which both of us have done...) gets no where, and both sides (in our debate, and in the debate that actually matters) want some of the same things... If only people in the real debate thought for themselves and didn't just vote along party lines, then a piece by piece, up and down vote could actually be realistic, or bipartisainship which accomplishes things both sides could support (except extremists like myself and MOHS... both on the opposite sides).
 
Are they still teaching that these days? What measure or metric would you like to base the argument that either the New Deal or WWII did either of those things?

Yes, 99.99999% of historians teach that WWII ended the Great Depression. Now, you're going to argue that wartime manufacturing didn't lead to a resolution of unemployment? Wow.
 
Yes, 99.99999% of historians teach that WWII ended the Great Depression. Now, you're going to argue that wartime manufacturing didn't lead to a resolution of unemployment? Wow.

You're 1/2 correct; there has been a significant wavering in the thought that WWII "ended the depression" -- at least in the way that was taught for the better part of 50 years. Of course it lowered unemployment -- we shipped off some 16 million of our prime working demographic at a time when the total US population was only about 130 million and a workforce of 55 million or so. Of those 16 million men and women in uniform, 10 million or so were conscripted (dragged in at gunpoint under threat of imprisonment). In addition to this transfer of the unemployed onto the national balance sheet, we drew millions more into nationalized factories for war production efforts... so yeah, unemployment numbers went down. That is what happens when you reduce a potential workforce by 10-20%; the question is whether the nominal unemployment rate is an appropriate metric for economic recovery -- when the unemployment rate is not used at all when determining a contraction or expansion of the economy. Aside from all that, you do realize that unemployment was improving prior to the war, correct? Peak of 24.9% in '33, down to 14-15% in '39-40, and below 10% in '41?


Again, it's another matter of correlation and causation, and much new debate surrounds the matter. Keynesians would have us to believe that the war and massive deficit spending efforts were good for the economy, while others dispute that war is ever good for any economy. If you view WWII and the New Deal as having net positive effects on the economy, what follows would be that we should just start bombing the living **** out of every country on earth, nationalizing all industries, confiscating wealth, enacting wage and price controls, and pursue the general commandeering of the economy through central economic planning initiatives.... oh, wait.....

as a side note -- as a nation we did profiteer a little from the war efforts.... we decreased the number of men and women competing for jobs post war, enjoyed a "baby boom", financed other countries war efforts, and supplied them with both raw and finished materials to rebuild their countries... after manufacturing the bombs and bullets that blew their countries all to hell to start with. Of course we did not make out like "Uncle Joe" as FDR liked to call him, but what the hell.... not to mention that we got off of that pesky and restrictive commodity standard... and created a nice welfare entitlement to boot. All in all I suppose we would have to call it a good decade.... or two.:rolleyes:
 
Aside from all that, you do realize that unemployment was improving prior to the war, correct? Peak of 24.9% in '33, down to 14-15% in '39-40, and below 10% in '41?

Well, isn't that interesting since the earliest New Deal agricultural programs started being rolled out in 1933, I believe? Hmm, now that wouldn't correlate there would it? Actually, I harbor little doubt that both the New Deal and WWII were useful, but I chose the least controversial of them to mention here. I pretty much new some of you wouldn't care too much for the New Deal. Dude, your attempts to determine the efficacy of the New Deal or WWII in ending the Depression are about as feeble as your attempts to quote statistics for future cost projections of healthcare. It makes for nice pie charts and line graphs, but it's pure conjecture. "Experts" quote statistics on both sides of the aisle.


Again, it's another matter of correlation and causation, and much new debate surrounds the matter. If you view WWII and the New Deal as having net positive effects on the economy, what follows would be that we should just start bombing the living **** out of every country on earth, nationalizing all industries, confiscating wealth, enacting wage and price controls, and pursue the general commandeering of the economy through central economic planning initiatives.... oh, wait.....

Pres. Bush did bomb the living **** out of everybody (I actually supported the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan). Pres. Obama is not trying to nationalize everything and confiscate wealth. We all know these extremes were attempted under the Soviet Union, and they didn't work. It makes for great campaign posters to call Pres. Obama a socialist, but he's really a classic European liberal, plain and simple. I reject both extremes and choose to reside in the uncomfortable middle.
 
Again, it's another matter of correlation and causation, and much new debate surrounds the matter. Keynesians would have us to believe that the war and massive deficit spending efforts were good for the economy, while others dispute that war is ever good for any economy. If you view WWII and the New Deal as having net positive effects on the economy, what follows would be that we should just start bombing the living **** out of every country on earth, nationalizing all industries, confiscating wealth, enacting wage and price controls, and pursue the general commandeering of the economy through central economic planning initiatives.... oh, wait.....

THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT... those that support Keynesian theory point to your declining unemployment rate, the growth (or atleast slowing of the shrinkage) of the GDP (which I think first went back positive in 1939...), and whatever meassures you want to throw out there. This is the theory Barack employed to try to deficiet spend out of the current economic recession, and well, some would argue that economically it is showing signs of working (although to be fair, a lot of what is "working" is the "bank bailout" and it was GWB who started that, so it was both Bush and Obama deficiet spending...). Again, if something socialistic shows any sign of having any sort of positive effect, the libertarians say that it means the collective we on the left want to nationalize all industries, confiscate wealth, etc. etc. etc. I am wise enough to see communism fails in practice and there can be no utopian society where I get to ride by unicorn to the doctor factory and everyone shows up on time for their colonoscopy... and I am also wise enough to realize that Keynesian theory and the New Deal/WW2 weren't the only forces at play that rectified the great depression, and am not entirely convinced that the deficit spending of the New Deal didn't prolong the depression as those that hate Keynesian theory (or atleast some of them) claim (I have read that people think it made the depression last like 7 years longer than it would had they let the free market solve the problems on their own). I also know that deregulation of the banks and other lax laws set up from the Reagan era and perpetuated by every present since then (including Bill Clinton himself) has lead to the credit industry as it is, the banking industry, and pretty much the sad state that we are in as a country that corporations no longer provide a good/service first and make a profit from it second, and that the government which is suppose to protect the populous from the abuses/explotations of these corporations... I mean, we are approaching the early industrial revolution times here (sorry, just had to do a slippery slope/anarachy type of thing as the libertarians have gained ground :scared:)So, even when we have historic precedent, ideologs still rule the day, because there is so much confounding information that we can't prove, or even objectively measure, which theory is correct.
 
No one is questioning whether preventative care might save lives, it probably will. However, it will be expensive. Learn statistical terms like NNT and come back to discuss this. The problem is the fairy dust assumption politicians keep spewing out about preventative care SAVING MONEY. No study I have seen has ever proven this assumption, and multiple studies have shown that it it fact COSTS money, sometimes a lot, for preventative care.

Is the cost due to preventative care itself or how preventative care is administered in our system? My guess its the latter.

What are the costs coming from? Overutilization of services with ineffective outcomes? Are patients getting a pamphlet on weight loss and diabetes with hopes that they will turn 20 years of poor lifestyle behavior around? With it are they scheduling their future appointment for gastric bypass surgery? Or maybe a pill that decreases fat absorption?

It seems to me these passive approaches aren't working. Look at the data on gastic bypass surgery in terms of costs (both in dollars and in risk) to long-term benefits. Yet the system would rather pay for this type of surgery than for an inter-collaborative effort between allied health professionals such as dietitians, physical therapists, athletic trainers, and health psychologists to demonstrate measurable, objective results. Provide an economic incentive for the patient to participate in such a program. For example have this treatment covered almost completely by insurance. Likewise if they would rather opt for the gastric bypass. Make them PAY for the extremely expensive, rather ineffective treatment. Utilize economic principles to influence behavior.
 
By far and away smoking cessation is the best prevenitive medicine you can perform but the least succesful.

So you tax the living he*l out of tobacco products until people can't buy them anymore. Influence behavior through economics. I know a number of people that have quit smoking recently. One HUGE reason is the cost. Another big plus is living.
 
Thedrjojo I see you like the universal, one-payer, government coverage. The idea sounds good at first but I'm sure if this were to happen and you'd see the repercussions you'd change your mind quite quick. Reason being you'd find a rather inefficient system that was tied through heavy bureaucracy with people running the show that know very little about healthcare. You'd be disappointed and so would everyone else. The problem is when you'd want your private industry back the government would not want to relinquish because they already have their dirty paws on the mess and wouldn't let it go.

We don't want more government control. Talk to anyone that deals with Medicare and Medicaid. For example in the rehab world, a $1860 annual cap was placed on medicare patients. Now was this cap based upon data and patient-care analysis? Nope. It is an arbitrary number made up out of thin air. Now would you really want your healthcare tied down to an arbitrary number? Another example would be that physical therapy and speech therapy are combined under this annual cap but occupational therapy has their own $1860 annual cap. What's the rationale? Well rehab professionals don't really know. They think the reason is because when they typed up the document they forgot a comma. Sounds encouraging doesn't it? To get any change you'd have to go through our wonderful congressional system. You know the one that just took a year debating healthcare reform practically crawling along the way bickering like third graders. Trust me if more people knew the details they'd tell congress to get their dirty paws off their healthcare.

Medicare is probably a necessary evil due to quite simply the fact that private insurers don't want to pick up the tab for the sick. Everything else should be privatized, yet regulated. I also support the health insurance mandate for all citizens provided it's a reasonable figure that's not going to bankrupt families. I like the non-denial for pre-existing conditions as well as the non-denial of coverage for the insurance customer. I think you have to mandate it because you have to protect people from themselves and their "its not going to happen to me" mentality. This way everyone else isn't picking up the tab for them when it does happen. Just my opinion. Not like it matters much anyway.
 
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So you tax the living he*l out of tobacco products until people can't buy them anymore. Influence behavior through economics. I know a number of people that have quit smoking recently. One HUGE reason is the cost. Another big plus is living.

Prohibition worked beautifully in the past.

But I do agree I've seen more people stop from cost than anything else. So the incremental rise in cost Seems to really help
 
So you tax the living he*l out of tobacco products until people can't buy them anymore. Influence behavior through economics. I know a number of people that have quit smoking recently. One HUGE reason is the cost. Another big plus is living.

Here's what I don't understand -- why social engineer at all? Second hand smoke is a clear problem, so we should either ban smoking products in the public altogether on those grounds or tax the industry to the point where they develop some "filtered to the outside world" product. There would be no reason to prevent self destruction if the the taxpayer was not forced into picking up the tab to start with. Lay the blame at the point of mistake.....
 
THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT... those that support Keynesian theory point to your declining unemployment rate, the growth (or atleast slowing of the shrinkage) of the GDP (which I think first went back positive in 1939...), and whatever meassures you want to throw out there. This is the theory Barack employed to try to deficiet spend out of the current economic recession, and well, some would argue that economically it is showing signs of working (although to be fair, a lot of what is "working" is the "bank bailout" and it was GWB who started that, so it was both Bush and Obama deficiet spending...). Again, if something socialistic shows any sign of having any sort of positive effect, the libertarians say that it means the collective we on the left want to nationalize all industries, confiscate wealth, etc. etc. etc. I am wise enough to see communism fails in practice and there can be no utopian society where I get to ride by unicorn to the doctor factory and everyone shows up on time for their colonoscopy... and I am also wise enough to realize that Keynesian theory and the New Deal/WW2 weren't the only forces at play that rectified the great depression, and am not entirely convinced that the deficit spending of the New Deal didn't prolong the depression as those that hate Keynesian theory (or atleast some of them) claim (I have read that people think it made the depression last like 7 years longer than it would had they let the free market solve the problems on their own). I also know that deregulation of the banks and other lax laws set up from the Reagan era and perpetuated by every present since then (including Bill Clinton himself) has lead to the credit industry as it is, the banking industry, and pretty much the sad state that we are in as a country that corporations no longer provide a good/service first and make a profit from it second, and that the government which is suppose to protect the populous from the abuses/explotations of these corporations... I mean, we are approaching the early industrial revolution times here (sorry, just had to do a slippery slope/anarachy type of thing as the libertarians have gained ground :scared:)So, even when we have historic precedent, ideologs still rule the day, because there is so much confounding information that we can't prove, or even objectively measure, which theory is correct.

At least you have made an effort to read competing views (more than can be said for some it would appear).

I am not a fan of Keynesian economics. It has never made sense to me -- other than when taking the narrow view of "the now" -- how government borrowing, with its necessary repayment at interest, could even temporarily replace private sector spending. After learning more about Keynes, his philosophy, and the evolution of his theories it became apparent that Keynes developed his theories for "the now" and believed that concern for the future was a base cause of widespread economic downturns.... and that said concern for future returns was inherent to the capitalistic model... therefore capitalism itself was at fault for at least some of the problems of the Great Depression. As for which camp is correct? Who knows, as it cannot be determined without the benefit of counterfactual history...

I believe that a strong enough case has been made time and again that the "New" Deal (which was nothing new at all -- the same **** had been employed in the past with similar worthless results -- starting with the Romans and the ag subsidies listed so lovingly above) did actually worsen and prolong the Great Depression, so no need to go into that long discussion here. For those so inclined there are many books, essays, and lectures on the subject available for free (all you have to do is expend a little effort ;)).
I would suggest looking at GDP for the flawed figure that it is: it's inclusion of government deficit spending -- as well as the double counting of government wages -- is fundamentally flawed. There are other, conceptually better measures of "true" household (Main Street) economic production. Private Product Remaining is but one such proposed metric.

As for the credit and housing mess we are in now -- there are many factors, some of which you would have to go back a little further than Reagan, some much further back than Reagan, and some since Reagan. Whether it is strangulating regulation, ill advised mandates, or irresponsible selective deregulation, the only thread that runs common is the poor outcomes as a result of politically driven interventionism.
 
Well, isn't that interesting since the earliest New Deal agricultural programs started being rolled out in 1933, I believe? Hmm, now that wouldn't correlate there would it? Actually, I harbor little doubt that both the New Deal and WWII were useful, but I chose the least controversial of them to mention here. I pretty much new some of you wouldn't care too much for the New Deal. Dude, your attempts to determine the efficacy of the New Deal or WWII in ending the Depression are about as feeble as your attempts to quote statistics for future cost projections of healthcare. It makes for nice pie charts and line graphs, but it's pure conjecture. "Experts" quote statistics on both sides of the aisle.

:hijacked:

Ummmm.... yeah. Correlate - yes. Cause - ??? ... which was the (apparently missed) point anyway. Feeble, huh? Maybe -- better spend some more time (perhaps on Wiki :rolleyes:) to read up a bit on the matter before making such assumptions, though.:laugh:

As for WWII -- let's look at that for a brief moment. Leading into WWII we had a prolonged era of economic doldrums -- which led, naturally, to diminished levels of consumption (but we still had natural and normal product decline in function and a need for replacement as this cannot be forever frozen). This was followed by WWII -- complete with its rationing efforts. The net result of these sequential events was a sizable pent up domestic demand for goods and services. Couple this with the fact that the war was fought over there as opposed to here and you are left with the realization that America stood alone as the only intact industrial power left to furnish the goods to rebuild the world. As this benefit was being realized wages grew rapidly due to companies being flush with cash and a relative competition for skilled and semi-skilled labor was in place. As the world rebuilt and assumed more of its own production, without the pressure on wages, the competitive environment changed. Throw in an "oil crisis" and two senseless wars and wham -- the 70's doldrums hit. Without the presence of the structural advantages present following WWII, a new paradigm had to emerge to reclaim greatness. Enter the '80's and '90's. We are now dealing with the house of cards that resulted from the years of malinvestment during the latest run up. Hmmm.......

Pres. Bush did bomb the living **** out of everybody (I actually supported the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan). Pres. Obama is not trying to nationalize everything and confiscate wealth. We all know these extremes were attempted under the Soviet Union, and they didn't work. It makes for great campaign posters to call Pres. Obama a socialist, but he's really a classic European liberal, plain and simple. I reject both extremes and choose to reside in the uncomfortable middle.

And way to miss the point twice in one post... if your logic on "WWII saved us" were correct, what would follow is we would be in a better economic state now that we have bombed "the living ****" of out a good section of the middle east...

Lastly, you may want to do a little research on what a "classic liberal" is or represents... here's a hint: Obama is not one.

Here's a place to start.;)
 
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So when did I miss he land breaking study that primary care and prevenitive medicine led to long term cost savings?

My brother died from a disease that could have been PREVENTED with a vaccine. Maybe preventive care is not that important to those who think of it in terms of monetary savings, but it is to those who want to live a healthy long life.
 
Prohibition worked beautifully in the past.

But I do agree I've seen more people stop from cost than anything else. So the incremental rise in cost Seems to really help

The difference is don't outlaw cigarettes, just tax the he_l out of them. It's already working.
 
Here's what I don't understand -- why social engineer at all? Second hand smoke is a clear problem, so we should either ban smoking products in the public altogether on those grounds or tax the industry to the point where they develop some "filtered to the outside world" product. There would be no reason to prevent self destruction if the the taxpayer was not forced into picking up the tab to start with. Lay the blame at the point of mistake.....

In my state smoking in buildings is now against the law. So smokers need to go outside to smoke a cigarette in a restaurant or bar. Taken you now have to remove yourself from the room and go outside this itself should provide a deterrence factor. I guess the exception would be a large majority of smokers all going outside for a smoke. Give them twenty degree weather outside winter and you start having an undesirable, inconvenient hobby. Sadly these trump health most of the time in the public.

I could name three people that I know personally that have quit smoking and have been successful for the past year. One stated the costs are too high. Another said it's no longer fun (can't sit at the bar and smoke a pack). The other stated costs but is also trying to acquire better healthy habits (just had a child). So I support this tax. How far up the tax could go before people start selling cigarettes on the black market I don't know. I do know that most the people I know that smoke will most likely not be dumb enough to go to black market. They'll probably just quit. Most reasonable people that smoke generally want to quit. Some just need a little persuasion.
 
My brother died from a disease that could have been PREVENTED with a vaccine. Maybe preventive care is not that important to those who think of it in terms of monetary savings, but it is to those who want to live a healthy long life.

I never stated that we shouldn't offer prevenitive care services and if you'd take the time to read what I wrote I endorsed some of them. However, many like RGM are trying to force this farce if a reform under false pretences that prevenative care will save enough money to off set the massive influx of newly insured; and then get their panties in a bunch when confronted with evidence that prevenative medicine has not been shown to save money.

The difference is don't outlaw cigarettes, just tax the he_l out of them. It's already working.

it will get to a point where all that high taxes will do is lead to black market tobacco.
 
Here's what I don't understand -- why social engineer at all? Second hand smoke is a clear problem, so we should either ban smoking products in the public altogether on those grounds or tax the industry to the point where they develop some "filtered to the outside world" product. There would be no reason to prevent self destruction if the the taxpayer was not forced into picking up the tab to start with. Lay the blame at the point of mistake.....

Another thing I missed was the fact an increased, progressive tax will largely be simply accepted by the the hardcore smokers. Sure they might complain, but I don't think you'd get the political rally. Taking away free rights yada yada yada. I don't think you'd get a response by simply raising the costs and increasing the areas that smoking is not allowed.
 
I think from an economic standpoint, smoking doesn't cost the system as much as other chronic issues. The reason being the decreased life expectancy. Other chronic conditions, such as diabetes, offer many more opportunities to drain the resources of the system. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. What is the major factor contributing to diabetes other than genetics? Obesity. Obesity is thought to trigger the diabetic gene. I keep beating the drum but I do believe it is what is going to challenge our system the most in the years to come. Think of all the health complications that simply being obese increases the prevalence of.

Diabetes is something that seems to slowly eats away at the individual. All the medication, surgeries, dialysis treatments over a long-period of time are costly. When someone gets to the dialysis stage their quality of life has just dropped dramatically. From that stage on its a progressive decline that will most likely leads to death not too much further down the line.

There is a clear-cut association with the increased prevalence in obesity with the increased prevalence of diabetes over the past thirty years. So there clearly is a link. So how do we effectively change behavior of the masses in our society of overconsumption? I think this is the golden question.
 
Lee,

You change the behaviors by removing the "socialize the losses" backstop and return to a system where decisions are either rewarded or punished based upon their relative merits. If someone chooses to partake in chronic twinkie toxicity, they should shoulder the (negative) rewards that goes along with said decision. That is the only way to really drive behaviors while avoiding trampling rights and liberties. As long as we maintain a system where someone else pays for our indiscretions, there will be no imposition of self sacrifice by a large (pun intended) swath of our populace.
 
I think from an economic standpoint, smoking doesn't cost the system as much as other chronic issues. The reason being the decreased life expectancy.

per the CDC smoking and dm direct costs are about the same but the indirect costs for smoking is twice that of dm....
 
Lee,

You change the behaviors by removing the "socialize the losses" backstop and return to a system where decisions are either rewarded or punished based upon their relative merits. If someone chooses to partake in chronic twinkie toxicity, they should shoulder the (negative) rewards that goes along with said decision. That is the only way to really drive behaviors while avoiding trampling rights and liberties. As long as we maintain a system where someone else pays for our indiscretions, there will be no imposition of self sacrifice by a large (pun intended) swath of our populace.

I absolutely agree. Here in lies the problem with Medicare. Because most of these behavior-influencing chronic diseases start expressing themselves later in life, many of the patients will be drawing off the Medicare system when complications go into effect. The treatment for these complications are thus not burdened by the individual but the taxpayer. So right now we are paying for the result of years of poor health-related behavior. The patient has little incentive when regarding cost to change behavior, and we have are perfectly broken system for the elderly.

So the question is how do we cover this age group? Or I guess the question is should we cover this age group? Would insurance companies be willing to burden the costs associated with the 65+ knowing that they come at a cost? Is a socialized program like Medicare necessary to assure that our senior citizens are getting health coverage? Or should each individual have their own healthcare fund that they pay into over time in which they can depend on it later on in life when they need it? What do you think would work for the 65+ age group?
 
Lee,

You change the behaviors by removing the "socialize the losses" backstop and return to a system where decisions are either rewarded or punished based upon their relative merits. If someone chooses to partake in chronic twinkie toxicity, they should shoulder the (negative) rewards that goes along with said decision. That is the only way to really drive behaviors while avoiding trampling rights and liberties. As long as we maintain a system where someone else pays for our indiscretions, there will be no imposition of self sacrifice by a large (pun intended) swath of our populace.


The problem is the attention span of people and the fact that many of these diseases are silent when they are actually doing damage, and once they have manifested in a way that should cause change (but then again, how many of you have seen a COPDer who is still smoking, or a diabetic with an A1C greater than the number of toes remaining). Its a hard point to drive home as I am sure the PCP attendings on this thread know even better than this lowly 4th year MS does...
 
I absolutely agree. Here in lies the problem with Medicare. Because most of these behavior-influencing chronic diseases start expressing themselves later in life, many of the patients will be drawing off the Medicare system when complications go into effect. The treatment for these complications are thus not burdened by the individual but the taxpayer. So right now we are paying for the result of years of poor health-related behavior. The patient has little incentive when regarding cost to change behavior, and we have are perfectly broken system for the elderly.

So the question is how do we cover this age group? Or I guess the question is should we cover this age group? Would insurance companies be willing to burden the costs associated with the 65+ knowing that they come at a cost? Is a socialized program like Medicare necessary to assure that our senior citizens are getting health coverage? Or should each individual have their own healthcare fund that they pay into over time in which they can depend on it later on in life when they need it? What do you think would work for the 65+ age group?

And that, my friend, is why Medicare was a colossal mistake from its inception; this mistake has only been magnified by political inaction in the face irrefutable evidence of its insolvency. While many are loathe to admit it, many of the problems bandied about today are the direct result of MC's creation.

The first thing that one must accept is that we are ultimately dealing with finite resources. Once that is done some real progress can be made; until that is done no progress will be made. You will have economic and historic dimwits who allow emotion to overwhelm common sense, simple math, and historic precedents argue for the socialization of, well, damn near anything. You will have the opposite argument from those who believe we each have a responsibility for self and loathe any form of redistribution.

Widespread utilization of HSA's will help if it is coupled with a change in the tax treatment and ownership of health insurance. We should move to a system of personal health insurance ownership with equal tax treatment. This would not inhibit migration between jobs (or even in and out of the employment pool). Prior existing condition clauses will not be an issue as long as coverage does not have greater than 60 day lapses. The savings can be viewed and treated similar to a retirement account in that the monies can grow tax free.

That's just one way to do it. It does leave the door open for inequality; every system has its form of inequality, however. Even a single payer system has its own version of inequality -- there is nothing "equal" about forcing one group of people to pay for goods or services for another group

One last note -- the 65yo cutoff is antiquated. It should have been indexed for longevity long ago.
 
If I remember correctly the 65 age was set when the life expectancy was ~67. So an obvious problem when the modern life expectancy is a decade longer. I like your idea. It makes sense. It's really unfortunate something so straightforward and logical eludes policymakers' decision-making process. It seems to me, they'll have to eventually when Medicare is terminated. I really haven't heard any realistic financial plan to sustain Medicare. So I assume it's heading on a downward spiral toward insolvency. Its going to be an ugly transition.
 
If I remember correctly the 65 age was set when the life expectancy was ~67. So an obvious problem when the modern life expectancy is a decade longer. I like your idea. It makes sense. It's really unfortunate something so straightforward and logical eludes policymakers' decision-making process. It seems to me, they'll have to eventually when Medicare is terminated. I really haven't heard any realistic financial plan to sustain Medicare. So I assume it's heading on a downward spiral toward insolvency. Its going to be an ugly transition.

It's not that they don't "get it" or don't see it -- it's that they have captured a reliant and scared demographic that votes with great predictability... that happens to be the fastest growing demographic in the land. This demographic has legitimate fears because they cannot respond to increased costs due to their age and relative "under-employability". A constituency that votes and thinks out of fear is a stable and predictable base. This underscores the primary problem with federally provided private consumption services -- it fundamentally warps the relationship between citizen and state.

Congressman Ryan has proposed a decent and sustainable idea, by the way, which is a voucher system.
 
I just had a random and true "doomsday" type of logic for those that see the insurance companies and private market as evil in this process. There is currently a new movie coming out called "Repo Men" where individuals purchase their new organs etc and if they can not make a payment, the organ gets repossessed (in a gruesome fantastic way). While this is obviously a movie, why not, if healthcare is a good and service that should be traded on the open market, why not repossess your work if the client no longer pays... ie, remove that heart valve, or that venous graft, or your organ transplant... works mostly for surgeons... medicine, um, i dunno... can work someway... point of the matter is, Medicine doesn't work the same way as other goods and services.
 
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