OK --here's what I like about you: you're intellectually honest and have at least made an effort to understand and explain your position. Of course you know I do not agree -- and here's why: .
Why thank you... you aren't too bad yourself
It distills down to what is the appropriate role of government in a free society and what is the appropriate relation between citizen and state. Fire and police serve to protect you from an external threat imposed upon you or your property by another. If someone's house is burning, it places yours at risk. Likewise, if someone is going to rape, steal, murder, or otherwise violate your person or property they pose an external threat to you. The military serves the same purpose. The same argument can be made for communicable disease and public health efforts, but Uncle Charlie's cancer, diabetes, heart disease, or most medical conditions does not meet these requirements. It may hurt Charlie, his family, his friends, and his employer, but it does not endanger me or mine if I don't fall into that circle. I should not have my property involuntarily confiscated under threat of imprisonment at the barrel of a gun to pay for Charlie's life long smoking, drinking, or Twinkie and Ho-Ho habits.
These are valid concerns, and it really depends on how much you consider the health of the population and the costs associated with it related to you. I have a broader view of where that falls, and believe that improving and provide health for all people will benefit society and the economy, because eliminating the dependence on work for healthcare (which I admit can be accomplished in many ways) will allow people more freedom to change jobs, preventing individuals from being held hostage into their job for fear of losing benefits or, in regards to preexisting conditions, not being able to reobtain insurance.... As far as the excuss of people not wanting to cover other peoples bad behaviors, which do have a significant impact on health but is not the entire picture... some people just get diseases idiopathically... I really don't have a good answer to it... I mean, we know that outlawing something won't really work (see: Alcohol in the 1920's, every other drug of abuse), and people already suffer higher premiums for insurance for smoking and pay out their arse for it (thanks to taxes) and it still do it anyway. This argument might actually derail the whole thing in my mind, but I still feel the social imperative outweighs it. So maybe I am a communist.
Further, those of us who are currently neck deep in the system run the risk of having the rules changed mid-game due to some political winds and misguided social justice BS. You do realize that advocating a government takeover is in direct violation of our intellectual property rights, correct? You may as well advocate for the federalization of all land in the country... people could live on it when they cannot afford to now... or food can be grown on it that they cannot afford to purchase now. You can see where this is going.
Change is tough. People will always oppose change and will make claims that it is in direct violation of rights. Slave owners went to war over this (amoung other things), because slaves were their property. Women's right to vote. Desegregation of everything. Interracial marriage. We are currently going through it with Gay Marriage. Now, I am not claiming this is on the same magnitude as those things... and I coulda claimed the same thing with social security and medicare, but people still oppose those social programs. But sticking with something that does not work (or, as I continue to say, actually works exactly how it should in its current setup, it just isn't set up to work properly for the actual service claiming to be provided) just because it will f' up the people currently in the system isn't a very good argument. I understand the slippery slope argument, and do agree that these type of arguments always boil down to where is that line drawn... when the libertarian side gains ground, those on the left say it will lead to unrestrained anarchy where corporations will take advantage of the people (see banking restrictions or lack there of) and when the socialist side gains ground, those on the right say it will lead to an authoritarian state with no freedoms. I don't no, nor will I advocate the federalization of land (but more options for homeless individuals could be nice...) nor federalization of food supply (but again, making sure what we are being fed is done so safely is nice, and again, those pesky homeless individuals...)
Jesus H.... what is it with all of the debate nerds in here? Worrying more about decorum than substance?
How dare you take the lords name in vain...
actually im agnostic
I did feel kinda nerdy writting that... Although i threw it in there slight handedly, clearly caring more about decorum than substance... Papa Bear taught you well young grasshopper... I do get annoyed when arguments stop being about substance and boil down to mud flinging... ours hasn't gotten there yet.
OK then -- why don't we throw up several pilot sites around the country and see if it really makes a difference? Why must we f' everyone else over just because some people "think" they have a better way of doing things? The burden of proof always falls upon the challenging opinion.
I mean, I am all for a good experiment, especially when they involve millions of peoples lives. I would love for this to actually be a possibility. Logistically it would be a nightmare, and for any validity in these types of pilot programs, they would probably have to run for like 25-50 years to see if any of these preventative meassures actually lead to longterm results. But I would welcome this, hope that all my preconceived notions pan out, and probably die before I found out if they did. Then we probably would have equivocal results (or one costing less, but another having better results, or one have a two tier system with excellent care for those who can get it, and the other having good/great care for all/most, and then argue about which is more fair). And it is impossible for both sides to co-exist at the same location (how can you have a total free market system like proposed on
http://www.freemarketcure.com which is a site you would probably like and support and a NHS type system?). And these are the likely result, because we can see most of these systems in practice across the globe, except a pure free market system. Maybe we should allow Texas, what is another dark red state to do that, and allow California and the Entire North East to have variations of the NHS or Canadian systems, maybe give some swing states like Florida and Ohio the Swiss system... would limit buying over state lines though... and totally mess you up when you travel between states, which is more common for most people than traveling between countries.
BTW, that's also why a good number of us don't have the time of day for a drug rep... and monitor our prescribing costs.
While I commend you for your apparent stand against drug companies, you know you are in the minority amoungst your peers. And it still doesn't prevent them from Direct to Consumer advertising, which doesn't happen in pretty much any other country (as far as I am aware, but I admit I am not fully versed on this subject). Billions of healthcare cost dollars being burnt on nothing to do with providing care (I mean, these companies have to be reaping monetarily from these ads cause you know they aren't doing it as PSA's, and probably making out like bandits on it, so its not billions of dollars out of their budgets, its billions of dollars out of the "consumers" pockets... cause if they didn't influence the drug the patient got, again wouldn't be done, but it does, somehow).
Not entirely. The VA is an employed situation for the most part. Those providers who practice within their walls either volunteer (no pay at all -- I'm one of those *no compassion my ass*) or they are willing employees of the system. If the government wanted to throw up those clinics all over the country -- without raising my taxes to do so -- more power to them. Let's separate the wheat from the chaff and go from there. Let us see what kind of quality, compassion, and timely care is awarded to those who expect others to pay for it... and when there are fewer consequences for not providing convenient service.
I am not arguing that doctors shouldn't be employed. Unless I misunderstood your original comment, which is possible, VA doctors are a public service for the troops, regardless if they volunteer or are employeed. I guess you were more referring to public health types of issues, where as I guess your examples of reportable diseases and public health initiatives are the only examples in our nation that I can think of.
Yeah, so, good talk. On one hand, there is a definate dialog and exchange of ideas. On the other hand, its like we are both banging our heads against the wall because we have boiled down to largely an idealogistic argument that there really can't be an answer or resolution to (unless there could be an experiement run that could definately prove one greater than the other, but with so many confounders and so much time needed, not possible... I mean, people debate whether the New Deal saved us from the great depression or extended the great depression... I mean, the depression ended [during ww2... coincidence or causationally?]...)