Odd questions: pondering life

[lifeguard2014]

Is it ever okay to cry with a patient?

Would you pray with a patient, even if their beliefs differ from yours?

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[operaman]

Yes to both.

Have done both myself.

Anticipate both will happen again.

 

[operaman]

double post

 

[HomeSkool]

I've also done both. And I tell patients all the time that they'll be in my thoughts and prayers. As far as I know, no one's ever taken offense.

 

[Doctor-S]

I have teared-up with patients.

It's a "human" thing I do when moved to tears.

Pretty sure I'm not the only one.

[Seen the same reaction in others, including medical students and residents. It happens.]

 

[deleted480308]

I’ve cried with patients.

I would pray with them if they wanted a Christian prayer, if they want something else I can stand their respectfully with them so they know they aren’t alone but I don’t do other religious prayers

 

[Osteoth]

I might be an outlier here, but I wouldn't want my doctor to cry in front of me. Kind of seems like an admission of a lack of self-control. I'd want them totally in control... But hey thats just me.

 

[dpmd]

I might be an outlier here, but I wouldn't want my doctor to cry in front of me. Kind of seems like an admission of a lack of self-control. I'd want them totally in control... But hey thats just me.

Depends on the situation. In the middle of a crisis, need to remain focused and in control. But if it during a discussion on end of life care and it is more of a sharing in the grief sort of thing I don't think it would bother you much.

 

[dpmd]

As for the prayer thing I think even the most vehement atheist doctor would do best to silently allow the patient to do their prayer rather than argue about it. If it is a devout XYZ follower asked to pray with a ABC follower the same thing applies. I doubt anyone's God is going to fault them for holding the patient's and bring quiet for a minute while the other person says some words..

 

[Neopolymath]

As for the prayer thing I think even the most vehement atheist doctor would do best to silently allow the patient to do their prayer rather than argue about it. If it is a devout XYZ follower asked to pray with a ABC follower the same thing applies. I doubt anyone's God is going to fault them for holding the patient's and bring quiet for a minute while the other person says some words..

I got a lot of this type of stuff working in surgery (in the South) before school. You can bet that even as a staunch atheist I still prayed with those patients/families because if doing something as simple as reciting some stuff from my childhood could make those people feel a little better on their worst day I would be remiss not to do it. It's about the patient and doesn't cost me anything.

 

[STcmOCSD]

One of the doctors I work with always offers to pray with patients families when they receive bad news. If the family says no, he is respectful of their wishes. But many people feel comforted by it even if they aren’t Christian. I think I would take this similar approach.

I can’t say that I think I’d cry in front of patients, but I do think it’s appropriate to exhibit sorrow for someone’s loss. If I walked into a room smiling to tell someone their family member died, that’s definitely not appropriate. I’m not much of a cryer anyway so I doubt I’d cry.

 

[DrSnips]

I got a lot of this type of stuff working in surgery (in the South) before school. You can bet that even as a staunch atheist I still prayed with those patients/families because if doing something as simple as reciting some stuff from my childhood could make those people feel a little better on their worst day I would be remiss not to do it. It's about the patient and doesn't cost me anything.

I take this approach as well. It strengthens the relationship with the patient and family to be part of their rituals.

 

[mehc012]

I've also done both. And I tell patients all the time that they'll be in my thoughts and prayers. As far as I know, no one's ever taken offense.

n=1, but I would take...not exactly offense, but that would def make me uncomfortable. I wouldn't tell you, though, because I'd know you meant well. I would just probably confide in you less so as to prevent you from saying anything like that again.

 

[HomeSkool]

n=1, but I would take...not exactly offense, but that would def make me uncomfortable. I wouldn't tell you, though, because I'd know you meant well. I would just probably confide in you less so as to prevent you from saying anything like that again.

Give me a little credit, though, for being bright enough not to lead with that kind of stuff. I only move that direction when patients have indicated they're open to it. My job requires me to build rapport effectively in a very short time, and I will say that I'm pretty damn good at it.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Is it ever okay to cry with a patient?

Would you pray with a patient, even if their beliefs differ from yours?

It happened to me once, with a hip fracture patient. She initially did very well, but had a stroke within weeks of her surgery and deteriorated very quickly. I came to visit her in the hospital and sat with her. She told me she was happy with how her life had gone (she was in her 90s) and she was ready to go. The stroke had caused her to become blind, and she had been completely independent until then, and she did not want to die a prolonged death in a nursing home. Something about her resonated with me, as I could not imagine an independent person suddenly becoming disabled like that. She held my hand and told me I had helped her. She asked me if they were going to take her favorite blanket away when she went to the nursing home. I am a trauma surgeon, and I’ve seen some pretty bad stuff, but her asking me this pitiful little question about her blanket made me cry. She was blind so she couldn’t see me, though. I got my voice under control, and told her I would see her in clinic for her follow up and she smiled and said, “no, you won’t.”
She died 3 days later in the home. I have her obituary note in my office. She called me an angel but in those moments I felt so useless. So I guess, yes, it’s okay to cry, but it didn’t seem to do much. I don’t want another experience like that anytime soon.


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[dpmd]

It happened to me once, with a hip fracture patient. She initially did very well, but had a stroke within weeks of her surgery and deteriorated very quickly. I came to visit her in the hospital and sat with her. She told me she was happy with how her life had gone (she was in her 90s) and she was ready to go. The stroke had caused her to become blind, and she had been completely independent until then, and she did not want to die a prolonged death in a nursing home. Something about her resonated with me, as I could not imagine an independent person suddenly becoming disabled like that. She held my hand and told me I had helped her. She asked me if they were going to take her favorite blanket away when she went to the nursing home. I am a trauma surgeon, and I’ve seen some pretty bad stuff, but her asking me this pitiful little question about her blanket made me cry. She was blind so she couldn’t see me, though. I got my voice under control, and told her I would see her in clinic for her follow up and she smiled and said, “no, you won’t.”
She died 3 days later in the home. I have her obituary note in my office. She called me an angel but in those moments I felt so useless. So I guess, yes, it’s okay to cry, but it didn’t seem to do much. I don’t want another experience like that anytime soon.


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Hopefully they didn't take her blanket from her. It always amazes me how sometimes people who are ready to go just do. I had a patient I was just consulting on for an abscess but it was related to his leukemia so over the next few months I got to know him and his family well. He inquired about physician aid in dying (the Oregon type law they recently passed here) and I was the first person willing to sit down and talk about it with him. We never did get to the point of proceeding with it but I know he was comforted by the thought that I was willing to if he chose. As things got worse I offered hospice but he was initially reluctant, then a little more open to it, and finally on the day of his scheduled follow up they cancelled saying he had chosen to go to hospice (I was no longer actually doing anything at the appointments beside talking to him about his situation and looking at his no healing wounds from the drainages). He didn't survive more than a few days on hospice.

Had he come in to that follow up visit I bet there would have been tears. Despite knowing hospice was the right thing to do (I am the one who ordered the consult) it is always sad to me when things come to the end for patients I have gotten close with.

 

[arcus]

Would you pray with a patient, even if their beliefs differ from yours?

If they asked, yes. First inquire what their Faith tradition is, though

The 12 Steps Program of AA uses a neutral term like “higher power” and “God as we understand God” when praying in groups where people have different faith traditions. I have attended a few Alanon meetings and it is inspiring to observe how civil and respectful people are at those meetings when it comes to matters of faith

 

[mehc012]

If they asked, yes. First inquire what their Faith tradition is, though

The 12 Steps Program of AA uses a neural term like “higher power” and “God as we understand God” when praying in groups where people have different faith traditions. I have attended a few Alanon meetings and it is inspiring to observe how civil and respectful people are at those meetings when it comes to matters of faith

Those still aren't neutral, though. The very concept of a spiritual force, higher power, or any form of God or god is a decidedly non-neutral topic, and even referencing a generic higher power is uncomfortable for many people. Just don't want those folks getting lost in the shuffle; some people don't realize that the firm belief in no power is as strong and worthy of respect as any individual spiritual belief.

For example, it's funny that you reference AA, as I personally found the 12 steps of AA very uncomfortable because they truly don't allow space for no higher power, and were in fact largely dependent in trusting to one, despite that there was great flexibility in how exactly you defined that. I am glad that I do not need AA, for many reasons, but also because I could never participate in it; its tenants are directly incompatible with my worldview.

 

[Neopolymath]

Those still aren't neutral, though. The very concept of a spiritual force, higher power, or any form of God or god is a decidedly non-neutral topic, and even referencing a generic higher power is uncomfortable for many people. Just don't want those folks getting lost in the shuffle; some people don't realize that the firm belief in no power is as strong and worthy of respect as any individual spiritual belief.

For example, it's funny that you reference AA, as I personally found the 12 steps of AA very uncomfortable because they truly don't allow space for no higher power, and were in fact largely dependent in trusting to one, despite that there was great flexibility in how exactly you defined that. I am glad that I do not need AA, for many reasons, but also because I could never participate in it; its tenants are directly incompatible with my worldview.

I'm sorry, but this is such a freaking weird reply to this thread.

 

[treatem-and-streetem]

Every time I have seen a physician cry my respect for that doctor went up ten-fold. Something about crying brings humanity into medicine and doctors are not machines.

 

[mehc012]

I'm sorry, but this is such a freaking weird reply to this thread.

Why? It's a very relevant set of beliefs that is often overlooked.

 

[Feste85]

Those still aren't neutral, though. The very concept of a spiritual force, higher power, or any form of God or god is a decidedly non-neutral topic, and even referencing a generic higher power is uncomfortable for many people. Just don't want those folks getting lost in the shuffle; some people don't realize that the firm belief in no power is as strong and worthy of respect as any individual spiritual belief.

For example, it's funny that you reference AA, as I personally found the 12 steps of AA very uncomfortable because they truly don't allow space for no higher power, and were in fact largely dependent in trusting to one, despite that there was great flexibility in how exactly you defined that. I am glad that I do not need AA, for many reasons, but also because I could never participate in it; its tenants are directly incompatible with my worldview.

I apologize for getting off topic, but I want to point out that there are actually many different formulations of the 12 Steps of AA/NA that encompass several belief systems. It isn't a 'one size fits all' kind of thing.

 

[arcus]

Those still aren't neutral, though. The very concept of a spiritual force, higher power, or any form of God or god is a decidedly non-neutral topic, and even referencing a generic higher power is uncomfortable for many people. Just don't want those folks getting lost in the shuffle

I agree with you when taken out of context of this thread. However OP asked:

Is it ever okay to cry with a patient?

Would you pray with a patient, even if their beliefs differ from yours?

Implicit in the questions by OP is that the patient is directing the scenario.
No physician in their right mind would initiate an encounter with a patient expressly to cry solo nor to initiate prayer solo, self-directed. The operative word in OP’s question is “with”.

You missed that. I can appreciate you not having any belief systems, higher power or might be vehemently opposed to someone praying in your presence. However with OP framing the question otherwise, you are pursuing a debate that does not apply in this thread

For example, it's funny that you reference AA, as I personally found the 12 steps of AA very uncomfortable because they truly don't allow space for no higher power, and were in fact largely dependent in trusting to one, despite that there was great flexibility in how exactly you defined that.

The Twelve Steps allows members to have a higher power as they understand that higher power. It can literally be a material object, the stars, a logo, etc. I once attended a 12 Step meeting where a participant believed their higher power was a BMW car hood ornament hanging from their necklace. Whatever works for you!

Back to OP and the thread...

If a patient asks you to pray with them, either do so or tell them you can not because of your non-belief system. Still, it wouldnt kill you to be selfless and think about the patient first instead of evangelizing your non-belief shtick. Its not like God is going to strike you dead with lightning.

 

[mehc012]

I agree with you when taken out of context of this thread. However OP asked:



Implicit in the questions by OP is that the patient is directing the scenario.
No physician in their right mind would initiate an encounter with a patient expressly to cry solo nor to initiate prayer solo, self-directed. The operative word in OP’s question is “with”.

You missed that. I can appreciate you not having any belief systems, higher power or might be vehemently opposed to someone praying in your presence. However with OP framing the question otherwise, you are pursuing a debate that does not apply in this thread



The Twelve Steps allows members to have a higher power as they understand that higher power. It can literally be a material object, the stars, a logo, etc. I once attended a 12 Step meeting where a participant believed their higher power was a BMW car hood ornament hanging from their necklace. Whatever works for you!

Back to OP and the thread...

If a patient asks you to pray with them, either do so or tell them you can not because of your non-belief system. Still, it wouldnt kill you to be selfless and think about the patient first instead of evangelizing your non-belief shtick. Its not like God is going to strike you dead with lightning.

True. At that point, I was replying to a comment rather than to OP. Apologies on that front.
As for the rest, I am aware of the flexibility you reference, but there is no flexibility to deny the possibility of ANY higher power. That being my sticking point.
And if a patient asked me to pray with them, I would likely sit there awkwardly and hold their hand and hope it made them feel better, and I wouldn't feel the need to evangelize, as you put it. But it would make me profoundly uncomfortable and is the number one experience I dread when I look forward to clinical years. I would rather have any other of the difficult or terrible conversations than sit there in the presence of overt spirituality and participate, even passively. Which is why I, back when I was on topic, mentioned not offering to pray so much as accepting it if asked earlier, to avoid making patients who feel a similar way feel uncomfortable - and OP responded in kind. So, sorry to have drifted back off topic from there, but it does bug me when people presume (as your post did also) that everyone is on board with the idea of a higher power, whether that be a God or a tree or a car hood ornament, and the real issue is just what that power is.

 

[Neopolymath]

True. At that point, I was replying to a comment rather than to OP. Apologies on that front.
As for the rest, I am aware of the flexibility you reference, but there is no flexibility to deny the possibility of ANY higher power. That being my sticking point.
And if a patient asked me to pray with them, I would likely sit there awkwardly and hold their hand and hope it made them feel better, and I wouldn't feel the need to evangelize, as you put it. But it would make me profoundly uncomfortable and is the number one experience I dread when I look forward to clinical years. I would rather have any other of the difficult or terrible conversations than sit there in the presence of overt spirituality and participate, even passively. Which is why I, back when I was on topic, mentioned not offering to pray so much as accepting it if asked earlier, to avoid making patients who feel a similar way feel uncomfortable - and OP responded in kind. So, sorry to have drifted back off topic from there, but it does bug me when people presume (as your post did also) that everyone is on board with the idea of a higher power, whether that be a God or a tree or a car hood ornament, and the real issue is just what that power is.

We get it. You are an atheist. So am I and may others on this thread. Hell, I'm militantly atheist according to some. You are making this so weird and about you. No one's post said you can't be atheist. No one assumed your belief system because no one asked you. You are in for a real treat if someone praying next to you gives you the creeps. You need to get a grip, frankly.

 

[mehc012]

We get it. You are an atheist. So am I and may others on this thread. Hell, I'm militantly atheist according to some. You are making this so weird and about you. No one's post said you can't be atheist. No one assumed your belief system because no one asked you. You are in for a real treat if someone praying next to you gives you the creeps. You need to get a grip, frankly.

Just using myself as an example because it avoids me making any assumptions about anyone else. I could have phrased things in generic 3rd person if you'd prefer. And I didn't say anyone made assumptions about me...just saying that people often make the assumption that everyone they meet is OK with spiritual discussions, period, and obviously that's not true.

 

[mehc012]

But for what it's worth, I do see your point, even if the consistently rude way you make it makes me want to dismiss what you're saying, and I am sorry for derailing as much as I have.

 

[Donald Juan]

I've definitely teared up with pts, never really broke down or lost control. And as an atheist, I would pray with any pt who asked. The nice thing about not being religious is I'm happy to close my eyes and listen to someone speak to a spirit and I don't care which one they are talking to.

 

[sloop]

I have not yet prayed with a patient, although I think in my field (psychiatry) that sort of behavior could be more of a boundary issue than in others.

One thing that happens frequently, however, is that distressed people ask me if I'm religious. Usually this seems like it's in the context of them wanting some comfort and wishing to talk to someone about illness or death in these terms. At these times, I usually lie and say that I'm Lutheran, which is the religion I was raised in. These never really feel like times to impose boundaries, nor do they seem like times to bring up my lack of belief in the thing that comforts them. To be honest, I've never been fully comfortable doing this but it has always felt like the most appropriate way to handle the situation.

With regards to crying with patients, I don't think it would be inappropriate in the right circumstance but I generally try not to.

But again, boundaries are very important to me and I think some of this has to do with being a psych resident. I also generally don't touch patients except to examine them, try to reject requests for comfort type conversations that seem to have dependent qualities, etc. My relationship with my patients is professional, though this doesn't mean I'm not human or don't show my humanity.

 

[arcus]

... people often make the assumption that everyone they meet is OK with spiritual discussions, period, and obviously that's not true.

I assume everyone is a non-believer until proven otherwise and even then I assume they are just talking caca.

Plenty of people claim all kinds of things but one cursory look at their actions invites all types of well deserved rebuke.

Better to say nothing about one’s Faith but rather walk it.

I would imagine a patient would ask a physician to pray with them because they need some comforting (choose your method) or saw something in the physician that moved them to think the doctor has a special connection with “their” (patient’s) understanding of God. If the latter, then that is quite a compliment just as the former.

OP go for it. Let us know how it goes. And if you find the cure for healing evil patients, please do share the good word

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I had a family pray with me before I operated on their family member. It was a little weird, sure, but they asked me if it was ok with it first, and I obliged because it’s not about your comfort and how you feel, but about them.


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