Ortho Non-match programs

[cephnut]

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I was wondering which of the Ortho programs are non-match. Please reply if you know any Ortho residencies that do not participate in the Match process.

Thanks.

 

[collegeboy30000]

links to all match and non-match ortho programs in the US


http://www.braces.org/studentsteachers/careers/orthodontistcareer.cfm


[thanks to www.dmdstudent.com]
very resourceful site

 

[HL555]

UCLA, Boston University, Colorado, UNLV, Jacksonville, Arizona

I was wondering which of the Ortho programs are non-match. Please reply if you know any Ortho residencies that do not participate in the Match process.

Thanks.

 

[twinblock]

University of Rochester

 

[Motown]

Loma Linda

 

[nug]

Detroit-Mercy (I think?)

 

[nug]

Howard, Buffalo, U of Wash, New Jersey, and Indiana were apparently "partial-match" this year.

 

[S Files]

Howard, Buffalo, U of Wash, New Jersey, and Indiana were apparently "partial-match" this year.

ha!

 

[drben]

Yeah...I am an alumnus from Indiana...the program is going doooown hill. It has a well deserved reputation for having toxic personalities. I hope that we can get some fresh new blood to reinvigorate the program.

Ben

 

[d3ntalwannab3]

why is it that some programs participate in the match and others do not?

 

[jeninny44]

Could someone please summarize what the "match" is and what a "non-matching program" is?

thanks!

 

[Jone]

Match prevents candidates from getting offers from multiple programs, and holding the spots in limbo while they contemplate which one to take, causing the programs to scramble to fill open spots when you decide to bong them at the last minute.

Here's a good example of how it works:

http://www.natmatch.com/dentres/

Could someone please summarize what the "match" is and what a "non-matching program" is?

thanks!

 

[Jone]

well apparently at UCLA, all the positions were already matched under the table before the Match process took place. so they no longer partake in Match. at least that's what people told me when i asked about the program. so is it pretty much pointless to apply there? i've emailed the program director several times regarding info on the program, visiting or doing an externship, etc., but never heard back. i assume he could care less about dissing potential candidates since 30 people from the UCLA pre-doc program apply to the program every year.

why is it that some programs participate in the match and others do not?

 

[hturt]

well apparently at UCLA, all the positions were already matched under the table before the Match process took place. so they no longer partake in Match. at least that's what people told me when i asked about the program. so is it pretty much pointless to apply there? i've emailed the program director several times regarding info on the program, visiting or doing an externship, etc., but never heard back. i assume he could care less about dissing potential candidates since 30 people from the UCLA pre-doc program apply to the program every year.

last year, UCLA decided not to participate in the Match. it was not "under the table".. there wasn't anything shady about it.. they made it clear from the beginning that they did not want to be involved with the Match system.

ortho directors from many schools often do not follow the rules of the Match.. cheating became too widespread, so UCLA--starting last year--opted not to roll with the Match. by cheating, i mean directors contacting their top applicants and telling them how they would rank and also inquiring how their applicants would rank.

as it turns out, UCLA made the right choice in being non-Match. they got all of their top picks.. and from what i've been hearing, it's an impressive group and a bit intimidating. UCLA's currently my #1 choice, but it seems almost impossible to get in.. apparently almost all of the candidates accepted last year got at least a 98 and had significant research/extracurriculars.

as far as getting a visit or doing an externship, i also haven't had any luck at UCLA.. i'm sure the director has his reasons for not answering.. he probably gets a ton of requests and is too busy to handle these matters.
i also emailed the people at UCSF.. no luck here as well.

 

[gryffindor]

as it turns out, UCLA made the right choice in being non-Match. they got all of their top picks.. and from what i've been hearing, it's an impressive group and a bit intimidating.

Of course UCLA is going to get their top picks. Dropping out of the match favors the program, not the applicant. If UCLA calls up a candidate prior to the match and says "Hey, we have a spot for you," the candidate would be dumb to say "no, thanks" given how competitive it is to get a spot. But UCLA might not be this student's first choice program, maybe his first choice is actually UNC where he interviewed last week and was really impressed and his girlfriend lives in NC. But he'll never get a chance to see if he gets into UNC unless he enters the match. Instead he is almost forced to take the acceptance from UCLA or face the possibility of getting hosed in the match since UNC can't give him any "hints" on where he is on their list if they play by the match rules. UCLA wins, not the candidate.

 

[aphistis]

Moving to Residency.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Of course UCLA is going to get their top picks. Dropping out of the match favors the program, not the applicant.

I couldn't agree more. They are getting their top picks partly out of applicant fear, but not necessarily because they are the applicant's #1 choice.

 

[hturt]

Of course UCLA is going to get their top picks. Dropping out of the match favors the program, not the applicant. If UCLA calls up a candidate prior to the match and says "Hey, we have a spot for you," the candidate would be dumb to say "no, thanks" given how competitive it is to get a spot. But UCLA might not be this student's first choice program, maybe his first choice is actually UNC where he interviewed last week and was really impressed and his girlfriend lives in NC. But he'll never get a chance to see if he gets into UNC unless he enters the match. Instead he is almost forced to take the acceptance from UCLA or face the possibility of getting hosed in the match since UNC can't give him any "hints" on where he is on their list if they play by the match rules. UCLA wins, not the candidate.

i can see how your argument would apply to schools in remote areas which are desperate for quality students, but UCLA is an awesome program (great location, paid stipend, no tuition, excellent education, beautiful campus, superb weather, nice residents, etc.).. UCLA's not a school that needs to acquire top applicants thru fear.. those they select as their top picks are probably candidates that would rank UCLA #1 anyway.

 

[gryffindor]

i can see how your argument would apply to schools in remote areas which are desperate for quality students, but UCLA is an awesome program (great location, paid stipend, no tuition, excellent education, beautiful campus, superb weather, nice residents, etc.).. UCLA's not a school that needs to acquire top applicants thru fear.. those they select as their top picks are probably candidates that would rank UCLA #1 anyway.

No schools is remote enough to be worried about quality students. There are plenty of qualified students applying each year. Every programs fills its spots (even the few that end up with open spots after match) and plenty of students (200+) are still left over without a spot. Every interview you go to says "We could only invite 20 out of 100+ applicants." Places like Iowa & West Virgina are remote in my book (not really near major airports) and they still fill through match. If those candidates UCLA calls before match are going to rank UCLA #1 anyways, then why not acquire them through the match?

Let's put it this way. I applied to UCLA one year. If I had interviewed with them, I would have probably ranked them lower on my list because I would prefer to be on the east coast for proximity to family/friends. Minus the weather part, there are programs on the east coast that fill all the criteria you tout for UCLA. I wouldn't have told UCLA at my interview that I prefer the east coast, obviously. However, if UCLA thought I was a stellar candidate and called to offer me a spot prior to match, I would have said yes and dropped out of match instead of saying no to UCLA and trying to get into an east coast program via match. UCLA wins and gets me, the stellar candidate. I lose any chance of trying to get into a program closer to home. It's like that saying, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Actually, that was my thinking my last time I applied. I would have rather attended Eastman, BU or Loma Linda over any other program because at the time, those were the only schools not part of match (and also weren't part of OEC). I would have gladly taken an acceptance before match rather than go through match again, despite location, quality of program, or high tuition. I didn't get the opportunity for a pre-match offer and luckily match worked out. UCLA is preying on applicant fear b/c the program is afraid to enter the match and not get their "top picks" because they can't control the match.

 

[hturt]

No schools is remote enough to be worried about quality students. There are plenty of qualified students applying each year. Every programs fills its spots (even the few that end up with open spots after match) and plenty of students (200+) are still left over without a spot. Every interview you go to says "We could only invite 20 out of 100+ applicants." Places like Iowa & West Virgina are remote in my book (not really near major airports) and they still fill through match. If those candidates UCLA calls before match are going to rank UCLA #1 anyways, then why not acquire them through the match?

Let's put it this way. I applied to UCLA one year. If I had interviewed with them, I would have probably ranked them lower on my list because I would prefer to be on the east coast for proximity to family/friends. Minus the weather part, there are programs on the east coast that fill all the criteria you tout for UCLA. I wouldn't have told UCLA at my interview that I prefer the east coast, obviously. However, if UCLA thought I was a stellar candidate and called to offer me a spot prior to match, I would have said yes and dropped out of match instead of saying no to UCLA and trying to get into an east coast program via match. UCLA wins and gets me, the stellar candidate. I lose any chance of trying to get into a program closer to home. It's like that saying, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Actually, that was my thinking my last time I applied. I would have rather attended Eastman, BU or Loma Linda over any other program because at the time, those were the only schools not part of match (and also weren't part of OEC). I would have gladly taken an acceptance before match rather than go through match again, despite location, quality of program, or high tuition. I didn't get the opportunity for a pre-match offer and luckily match worked out. UCLA is preying on applicant fear b/c the program is afraid to enter the match and not get their "top picks" because they can't control the match.

just because most ortho programs get filled every year doesn't mean they all got quality candidates. i know of 10-watt light bulbs who got in last year.
if you did a study on the average resident in each program, you'll see that those at awesome schools like UCLA and UCSF have much better board scores, GRE scores, publications, college GPAs, etc.. than those in less competitive schools. fact of the matter is, not all ortho applicants are equal.. some are smarter and more accomplished than others. ortho directors want the best of the best, and many will resort to cheating to get the cream of the crop. that's when UCLA (and soon probably others will) put its foot down and declined participation in the Match.
UCLA isn't afraid, and they don't "prey on applicant fear".. if all ortho directors played by the Match rules, schools like UCLA wouldn't have to resort to the old school way of admission.

 

[gryffindor]

just because most ortho programs get filled every year doesn't mean they all got quality candidates. i know of 10-watt light bulbs who got in last year.
if you did a study on the average resident in each program, you'll see that those at awesome schools like UCLA and UCSF have much better board scores, GRE scores, publications, college GPAs, etc.. than those in less competitive schools. fact of the matter is, not all ortho applicants are equal.. some are smarter and more accomplished than others. ortho directors want the best of the best, and many will resort to cheating to get the cream of the crop. that's when UCLA (and soon probably others will) put its foot down and declined participation in the Match.
UCLA isn't afraid, and they don't "prey on applicant fear".. if all ortho directors played by the Match rules, schools like UCLA wouldn't have to resort to the old school way of admission.

Have you been to any interviews? It is common sentiment that although match isn't perfect, it is better than the free-for-all, acceptance-hoarding by quality candidates that used to exist prior to match. Oh wait, that sounds a lot like the pre-dental board with borderline candidates/late applicants wondering if they'll get in off the waitlist, and quality candidates confused about which 1 school to attend out of the 6 acceptances they are holding and the legacies being all set because they got their #1 acceptance and were going to get in regardless. In fact, although UCLA has recently dropped out, Tufts & Minnesota only joined the match 2 years ago and used to accept residents pre-match prior to that. I wonder what compelled them to join seeing as they used to be at an "advantage" in getting their pick of candidates. It was just a few years ago that UCLA had a spot open after match, and then it was mysteriously gone in less than 3 hours so they couldn't have re-invited candidates that fast to fill it. Other supposedly "best" programs like UNC and Washington have also had post-match spots open in recent years, I wonder why all the quality candidates didn't fill all those schools up either.

Have you ever reviewed the stats that the National Match Service puts out
each year after the match occurs? The ones from this past year are available on their website. It is difficult to explain in detail what the numbers all mean in a short post. It can easily be summarized by saying "1) It is freaking competitive to get in, 2) programs don't have to go too far down the list before all the spots are filled, and 3) there are hundreds of candidates left over who don't get in." The 10-watt light bulbs that get in are not going to be in the majority, especially if you are considering them dim-witted because they don't have 95+ part I, top 5 rank, 3+ first-author publications, etc. Once you start going on interviews, it becomes obvious that you are meeting the same high-quality people over and over again at different programs as you trek across the country. Even if programs want only those with the highest numbers, sometimes the students with those numbers choose to go to "less competitive programs" over the "best" ones because of factors like cost, family, location, etc. Also, if you haven't already realized this as a dental student, those with the best numbers don't necessarily make the best dentists or orthodontists.

 

[Jone]

from some of the stuff i'm hearing here, is it possible for a Match school to call a student and offer a spot pre-Match, and have them withdraw from Match? that's what it sounds like is happening, but i just wanted to make sure.

 

[kato999]

from some of the stuff i'm hearing here, is it possible for a Match school to call a student and offer a spot pre-Match, and have them withdraw from Match? that's what it sounds like is happening, but i just wanted to make sure.

If it did happen the school would be banned from Match. The directors are not allowed to even ask the applicants what schools they are ranking. It still happens, but Match has explicit rules.

http://www.natmatch.com/dentres/index.htm

 

[hturt]

Have you been to any interviews? It is common sentiment that although match isn't perfect, it is better than the free-for-all, acceptance-hoarding by quality candidates that used to exist prior to match. Oh wait, that sounds a lot like the pre-dental board with borderline candidates/late applicants wondering if they'll get in off the waitlist, and quality candidates confused about which 1 school to attend out of the 6 acceptances they are holding and the legacies being all set because they got their #1 acceptance and were going to get in regardless. In fact, although UCLA has recently dropped out, Tufts & Minnesota only joined the match 2 years ago and used to accept residents pre-match prior to that. I wonder what compelled them to join seeing as they used to be at an "advantage" in getting their pick of candidates. It was just a few years ago that UCLA had a spot open after match, and then it was mysteriously gone in less than 3 hours so they couldn't have re-invited candidates that fast to fill it. Other supposedly "best" programs like UNC and Washington have also had post-match spots open in recent years, I wonder why all the quality candidates didn't fill all those schools up either.

Have you ever reviewed the stats that the National Match Service puts out
each year after the match occurs? The ones from this past year are available on their website. It is difficult to explain in detail what the numbers all mean in a short post. It can easily be summarized by saying "1) It is freaking competitive to get in, 2) programs don't have to go too far down the list before all the spots are filled, and 3) there are hundreds of candidates left over who don't get in." The 10-watt light bulbs that get in are not going to be in the majority, especially if you are considering them dim-witted because they don't have 95+ part I, top 5 rank, 3+ first-author publications, etc. Once you start going on interviews, it becomes obvious that you are meeting the same high-quality people over and over again at different programs as you trek across the country. Even if programs want only those with the highest numbers, sometimes the students with those numbers choose to go to "less competitive programs" over the "best" ones because of factors like cost, family, location, etc. Also, if you haven't already realized this as a dental student, those with the best numbers don't necessarily make the best dentists or orthodontists.

relax.. i obviously struck a nerve.
here's my point: ortho directors need to abide by the rules of the Match. if they cheat, then the programs that are honest should be allowed to boycott it.
case in point: the director of Univ of Fake calls student A and tells him, "hey dood, we want you in our program.. just rank us #1 and you'll get into our program." ok, now student A is thinking "well, Univ of Fake is not my #1 choice.. but if I'm guaranteed to get into Univ of Fake and become an orthodontist, it would be in my best interest to rank it #1."
do you think this is ok? the people at UCLA didn't. if you're accusing UCLA of "preying on applicant fear," what do you call this? the director of Univ of Fake is intentionally manipulating their applicant's rankings in order to acquire their top picks.
the Match program is a great idea, but it needs to regulate..
i initially didn't think it was cool for UCLA to drop out of the Match, but if cheating is rampant (i heard from the upperclassmen at my school that almost all of the interviewers ask where we're applying to, where we're interviewing, and how we intend to rank (at that moment and a few days prior to the Match list submission w/ contact made thru phone call or email), then it is totally legit for the ortho programs that play by the rules to not participate.

 

[gryffindor]

case in point: the director of Univ of Fake calls student A and tells him, "hey dood, we want you in our program.. just rank us #1 and you'll get into our program." ok, now student A is thinking "well, Univ of Fake is not my #1 choice.. but if I'm guaranteed to get into Univ of Fake and become an orthodontist, it would be in my best interest to rank it #1."
do you think this is ok? the people at UCLA didn't. if you're accusing UCLA of "preying on applicant fear," what do you call this? the director of Univ of Fake is intentionally manipulating their applicant's rankings in order to acquire their top picks.

I call your example the biggest misconception about match that students have. I'm not trying to harass you, but students enter the match each year and think it works the way you describe. In the example you give, the student is at ZERO disadvantage by putting Univ of Fake at the bottom of his list even with the phone call from the Univ saying "Put us first! We're putting you first!" Univ of Fake has the student in their #1 spot. The student gets this call but puts Univ of Fake at the bottom of his list, his #5 spot, b/c he didn't really like them as much as his other interviews. Match runs its algorithm, tries to place the student into his #1 - 4 choices and can't b/c those schools hated the guy so much they didn't even put him on their lists. So match hits #5 on the student's list, Univ of Fake. Then match looks at Univ of Fake's list and sees the student at #1 on their list. Bingo, a "match" has been made and the student ends up at Univ of Fake anyways. If any of the schools at #1 - 4 had actually like the guy and put him in their #1 spot, he would have matched at that position and the computer wouldn't have even reached the # 5 Univ of Fake entry on his list. They would have lost him regardless of what they told him in a post-interview phone call. So in this case, UCLA is not getting their top choice by entering through the match. This is all explained in the match website in the "how match works examples" or something like that.

So again yes, UCLA is preying on the student b/c if they offer him a spot before match. He doesn't even get to enter match and see if he would have gotten into any of the schools who do play by the match rules.

Did that make sense? It's very hard to explain all this over the net, it's just one of those "aha!" things about the match that takes a while to understand. The Match algorithm ALWAYS favors the applicant. This means that if one of the programs you interview with puts you in their #1 spot on their list (like the Univ of Fake was planning to do), then you can arrange your list in ANY order and are GUARANTEED at minimum that come match day you will be in somewhere. It may not be your #1 choice, but you will be in. As long as you don't leave the Univ of Fake off your list, b/c then you would be screwed if no one else wanted you. It happens, people are dumb enough to not rank all their programs and end up with one of those "We're sorry to inform you" e-mails.... That's why a corollary of all this is "Rank every program you interview with."

Yes, programs ask all the time where else you are interviewing. I used to think it was annoying. Then when all the applicants came this year, I realized I had nothing to really talk to them about that would fill a conversation for an entire day and they were all talking about all the other programs they had visited anyways. Some were sitting around discussing that "program x is awesome and my favorite!" not a good thing to say when you are at the program Y interview. Another thing that can be gauged by asking where else you applied/interviewed is to see how serious you really are about ortho - will you give it 100% and train almost anywhere if given the opportunity, or are you only applying to 2 programs because you can't ever imagine leaving your square state for !gasp! another part of the country for a few years. B/c we all know FTDs leave their home countries to come here if given the chance, oh wait, that's another thread.

And there have been stories out there where phone calls have been made saying "We're ranking you high!" and come match day, the student doesn't even match anywhere... maybe it's an urban legend, maybe it was UCLA, haha.

 

[hturt]

I call your example the biggest misconception about match that students have. I'm not trying to harass you, but students enter the match each year and think it works the way you describe. In the example you give, the student is at ZERO disadvantage by putting Univ of Fake at the bottom of his list even with the phone call from the Univ saying "Put us first! We're putting you first!" Univ of Fake has the student in their #1 spot. The student gets this call but puts Univ of Fake at the bottom of his list, his #5 spot, b/c he didn't really like them as much as his other interviews. Match runs its algorithm, tries to place the student into his #1 - 4 choices and can't b/c those schools hated the guy so much they didn't even put him on their lists. So match hits #5 on the student's list, Univ of Fake. Then match looks at Univ of Fake's list and sees the student at #1 on their list. Bingo, a "match" has been made and the student ends up at Univ of Fake anyways. If any of the schools at #1 - 4 had actually like the guy and put him in their #1 spot, he would have matched at that position and the computer wouldn't have even reached the # 5 Univ of Fake entry on his list. They would have lost him regardless of what they told him in a post-interview phone call. So in this case, UCLA is not getting their top choice by entering through the match. This is all explained in the match website in the "how match works examples" or something like that.

So again yes, UCLA is preying on the student b/c if they offer him a spot before match. He doesn't even get to enter match and see if he would have gotten into any of the schools who do play by the match rules.

Did that make sense? It's very hard to explain all this over the net, it's just one of those "aha!" things about the match that takes a while to understand. The Match algorithm ALWAYS favors the applicant. This means that if one of the programs you interview with puts you in their #1 spot on their list (like the Univ of Fake was planning to do), then you can arrange your list in ANY order and are GUARANTEED at minimum that come match day you will be in somewhere. It may not be your #1 choice, but you will be in. As long as you don't leave the Univ of Fake off your list, b/c then you would be screwed if no one else wanted you. It happens, people are dumb enough to not rank all their programs and end up with one of those "We're sorry to inform you" e-mails.... That's why a corollary of all this is "Rank every program you interview with."

Yes, programs ask all the time where else you are interviewing. I used to think it was annoying. Then when all the applicants came this year, I realized I had nothing to really talk to them about that would fill a conversation for an entire day and they were all talking about all the other programs they had visited anyways. Some were sitting around discussing that "program x is awesome and my favorite!" not a good thing to say when you are at the program Y interview. Another thing that can be gauged by asking where else you applied/interviewed is to see how serious you really are about ortho - will you give it 100% and train almost anywhere if given the opportunity, or are you only applying to 2 programs because you can't ever imagine leaving your square state for !gasp! another part of the country for a few years. B/c we all know FTDs leave their home countries to come here if given the chance, oh wait, that's another thread.

And there have been stories out there where phone calls have been made saying "We're ranking you high!" and come match day, the student doesn't even match anywhere... maybe it's an urban legend, maybe it was UCLA, haha.

I'm going to try to keep my response short.. this will be my last post in this matter which has been regrettably overly protracted.
OK, let's say Univ of Fake has 5 spots. The director of Univ of Fake calls student A and tells him that if he ranked Univ of Fake #1, he would get in.
However, student A doesn't like Univ of Fake and ranks it #10. Five other applicants liked Univ of Fake and ranked it #1, and because the algorithm favors the applicants (I agree with you on this one), these five get into the program. But student A does not.
In fact, student A wanted to go to the more competitive schools, but unfortunately they overlooked him, and some sites didn't even rank him. By not ranking Univ of Fake #1 (as he was instructed to by the director), student A does not get into any ortho programs in this application cycle.
When ortho programs cheat the Match system, the whole process becomes shady. Being non-Match is not underhanded.. what is sketchy is participating in the Match and not playing by the rules.

 

[Tarheel]

I'm going to try to keep my response short.. this will be my last post in this matter which has been regrettably overly protracted.
OK, let's say Univ of Fake has 5 spots. The director of Univ of Fake calls student A and tells him that if he ranked Univ of Fake #1, he would get in.
However, student A doesn't like Univ of Fake and ranks it #10. Five other applicants liked Univ of Fake and ranked it #1, and because the algorithm favors the applicants (I agree with you on this one), these five get into the program. But student A does not.
In fact, student A wanted to go to the more competitive schools, but unfortunately they overlooked him, and some sites didn't even rank him. By not ranking Univ of Fake #1 (as he was instructed to by the director), student A does not get into any ortho programs in this application cycle.
When ortho programs cheat the Match system, the whole process becomes shady. Being non-Match is not underhanded.. what is sketchy is participating in the Match and not playing by the rules.

You need to read the Match website. This is an impossible scenario. You are just demonstrating that you don't understand how Match works. Griffin is correct in what she is saying. Trust me.

 

[twinblock]

That is a common misconception about the match. If you rank a school #10 on you list and they rank you #1, then IF you have not matched to your top 9 schools you WILL match to Univ Fake even over a person that has ranked Univ Fake #1. Please read the match rules, people and programs need to understand how the match works, once again as it was already stated the match favors the applicants choice, but if you have not matched to your higher ranked schools and you are ranked higher by your last choice school that another applicant you will match to that program.
Here is a link with scenarios of how that works
http://www.natmatch.com/dentres/
http://www.natmatch.com/dentres/

 

[twinblock]

my post was in response to hturt, I completely agree with gryffindor

 

[gryffindor]

I'm going to try to keep my response short.. this will be my last post in this matter which has been regrettably overly protracted.
OK, let's say Univ of Fake has 5 spots. The director of Univ of Fake calls student A and tells him that if he ranked Univ of Fake #1, he would get in.
However, student A doesn't like Univ of Fake and ranks it #10. Five other applicants liked Univ of Fake and ranked it #1, and because the algorithm favors the applicants (I agree with you on this one), these five get into the program. But student A does not.
In fact, student A wanted to go to the more competitive schools, but unfortunately they overlooked him, and some sites didn't even rank him. By not ranking Univ of Fake #1 (as he was instructed to by the director), student A does not get into any ortho programs in this application cycle.
When ortho programs cheat the Match system, the whole process becomes shady. Being non-Match is not underhanded.. what is sketchy is participating in the Match and not playing by the rules.

Even if the 5 other students put Univ of Fake #1 and our guy puts it #10, the Univ of Fake hated those 5 and didn't even rank them on their list. Therefore those 5 have ZERO chance to get in there and will NEVER get matched into the Univ of Fake over the guy who put it #10 but is #1 on the Univ's list. Match always favors the applicant, but only when the applicant is actually ranked by the programs on the applicant's list. Programs don't have to rank all the applicants they interview, just like applicant doesn't have to rank all the interviews he attended.

Please read the match website or find someone who verbally explain to you how the algorithm works, or else you will be misinformed and only screwing yourself over when match day comes.

 

[Istr8nthem]

I'm going to try to keep my response short.. this will be my last post in this matter which has been regrettably overly protracted.
OK, let's say Univ of Fake has 5 spots. The director of Univ of Fake calls student A and tells him that if he ranked Univ of Fake #1, he would get in.
However, student A doesn't like Univ of Fake and ranks it #10. Five other applicants liked Univ of Fake and ranked it #1, and because the algorithm favors the applicants (I agree with you on this one), these five get into the program. But student A does not.
In fact, student A wanted to go to the more competitive schools, but unfortunately they overlooked him, and some sites didn't even rank him. By not ranking Univ of Fake #1 (as he was instructed to by the director), student A does not get into any ortho programs in this application cycle.
When ortho programs cheat the Match system, the whole process becomes shady. Being non-Match is not underhanded.. what is sketchy is participating in the Match and not playing by the rules.

I, along with the many others who have been through match before, urge you to make sure you completely understand how the algorithm works prior to submitting your match list. It's a completely stressful time, and I would hate to see you lose out on a spot where you want to be due to some very common, widespread misconceptions about how match truly works. I can only advise you to not try to play games with the match process. Rank your options in order of where you TRULY want to go and do not try to rank programs based on how you THINK they will rank you, or how you THINK it will all play out, because I know several people who were forced to reapply several times because of this type of "game playing." Good luck, match can be an exciting and frustrating process, but I think it does the job it's supposed to do....

 

[ItsGavinC]

just because most ortho programs get filled every year doesn't mean they all got quality candidates. i know of 10-watt light bulbs who got in last year.

That's because of the Match! And remember that the programs ranked those dim bulbs that got in. The Match always favors the students, and your example is a case in point. And as everybody else has already posted, your other example demonstrates that you are confused as to how the match works. Everybody is urging you to read the match documentation, so I'll point you to their website: http://www.natmatch.com/dentres/

Click on "example" on the left-hand side of the site.

 

[Billy Gilmore]

if you did a study on the average resident in each program, you'll see that those at awesome schools like UCLA and UCSF have much better board scores, GRE scores, publications, college GPAs, etc.. than those in less competitive schools. fact of the matter is, not all ortho applicants are equal.. some are smarter and more accomplished than others.

if only i knew a year ago the only two awesome programs were UCLA and UCSF i would have totally reconfigured my application strategy. to think i didn't realize the only places to accept truly exceptional applicants were on the west coast.

sorry hturt, but UCLAs non-match policy is based on the fear of the program director not being able to corner and acquire the residents he wants. yes, UCLA gets there top choices but UCLA isn't necessarily these students top choice. if you really want to go to UCSF i hope you are either asian or in dental school at UCSF.

 

[kato999]

According to people that were closely associated with UCLA's program, the reason UCLA did not do Match was because they were not able to get the students they really wanted two years ago. I think this is pretty crappy on UCLA's part, I just hope they don't start a trend. UCLA is a good school, but I don't think it is as well respected (outstide of Cali) or competitive as other programs such as UNC, UW, Baylor, VCU etc.

 

[Billy Gilmore]

UCLA is a good school, but I don't think it is as well respected (outstide of Cali) or competitive as other programs such as UNC, UW, Baylor, VCU etc.

My point exactly... this is why I applied to all the schools on your list and neither of the programs mentioned by hturt.

 

[helico]

According to people that were closely associated with UCLA's program, the reason UCLA did not do Match was because they were not able to get the students they really wanted two years ago. I think this is pretty crappy on UCLA's part, I just hope they don't start a trend. UCLA is a good school, but I don't think it is as well respected (outstide of Cali) or competitive as other programs such as UNC, UW, Baylor, VCU etc.

Why are Baylor and VCU well respected programs? People have talked a lot about UW and UNC, but I was wondering why you put Baylor and VCU in there. Any input? Thanks!

 

[vorosvirag]

I'm going to try to keep my response short.. this will be my last post in this matter which has been regrettably overly protracted.
OK, let's say Univ of Fake has 5 spots. The director of Univ of Fake calls student A and tells him that if he ranked Univ of Fake #1, he would get in.
However, student A doesn't like Univ of Fake and ranks it #10. Five other applicants liked Univ of Fake and ranked it #1, and because the algorithm favors the applicants (I agree with you on this one), these five get into the program. But student A does not.
In fact, student A wanted to go to the more competitive schools, but unfortunately they overlooked him, and some sites didn't even rank him. By not ranking Univ of Fake #1 (as he was instructed to by the director), student A does not get into any ortho programs in this application cycle.
When ortho programs cheat the Match system, the whole process becomes shady. Being non-Match is not underhanded.. what is sketchy is participating in the Match and not playing by the rules.

hturt,

You seem to need to study up on the Match process. Did you get admitted into ortho through a non-Match school? You recently participated in another thread on the subject of foreign-trained dentists. I must assume that is how you got into a residency, if you're in one at all.

My experience is that the Match is imperfect. But, no Match at all is worse in different ways for the usual applicant. However, if you're a FTD, non-Match positions are easier for you to secure. You're not directly competing w/ the majority of top-notch conventional orthdontic applicants. Instead, in the case of some schools w/ which I'm aware, the non-Match spots are handed out privately. I'm not aware what sort of competition occurs. In the case of certain programs, the director selects from a small chosen pool of candidates.