Osteopathic Students’ GME Aspirations Versus Realities

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uworldrelay

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Very good article. I think there has always and more recently been an increasing disparity regarding the perception of residency opportunities between newly accepted OMS1 and OMS4. This article is authored by Dr. Mark Cummings, an associate dean of Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine.




Please read and discuss.

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Excellent article, this guy must frequent SDN a lot ;).
 
Interesting article, but I take exception with the notion that students entering internal medicine residencies are counted 100% in the primary care list when a not insignificant number will go on to sub specialize after their IM residencies.
 
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Im surprised that so few go into school with an interest in primary care. I was expecting it to be low but not that low.
 
The students at may school maybe unique in that they come in preferring Primary Care.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

It's true at the school I went to as well. By far the most common cited preference was FM, and the FMIG was the largest and most active interest group on campus, followed closely by the IMIG.
 
If that's the case, then "most" fail to fulfill their goal

How do you know that?

Goals change in residency. I entered FM with the thought that I'd likely pursue an OB or Palliative Care fellowship. I'm doing very well but can already tell you I don't want to do any more training after residency so I won't apply for fellowship.
 
How do you know that?

Goals change in residency. I entered FM with the thought that I'd likely pursue an OB or Palliative Care fellowship. I'm doing very well but can already tell you I don't want to do any more training after residency so I won't apply for fellowship.
I don't think you read the article
 
Primary care is probably the largest interest in my school. I'd say at least half the people I talk to are interested in psych, FM, general IM, Ob/Gyn, and peds. Then again, my school very strongly seeks out primary care oriented students, so that probably has a good deal to do with it.
 
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If that's the case, then "most" fail to fulfill their goal
Given that we don't any data in that regard, it's pretty difficult to say for sure. I think it's also become obfuscated in recent years by increases in hospitalist salaries- it's hard to justify three extra years of training when you can already pull 300k in a lot of areas as a hospitalist. Couple that with the fact that DO students are, on average, older than their MD counterparts, and there is probably a good deal of people selecting themselves out of doing a fellowship. I really love critical care, but the farther along things get, the more I realize that I'd probably be better off just being a hospitalist until my loans are paid off, care of that lovely student loan interest that would balloon during fellowship. It's kind of insulting these days that general internists are looked at as failed specialists- there's a good number of them that either want to do general IM or actually wanted to do hospitalist work.
 
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Mark Cummings, PhD, Dream Crusher
 
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Primary care is probably the largest interest in my school. I'd say at least half the people I talk to are interested in psych, FM, general IM, Ob/Gyn, and peds. Then again, my school very strongly seeks out primary care oriented students, so that probably has a good deal to do with it.
"A total of 5,722 students participated in the 2014-2015 Entering Student Survey from 29 COMs and branch campuses. The preliminary count of new students is 6,477; the response rate for the Entering Student Survey is approximately 88.3%"
you simply must come to the realization that you are wrong.
 

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"A total of 5,722 students participated in the 2014-2015 Entering Student Survey from 29 COMs and branch campuses. The preliminary count of new students is 6,477; the response rate for the Entering Student Survey is approximately 88.3%"
you simply must come to the realization that you are wrong.
Or we have a different profile than many of the other COMs, that's entirely possible. We have a much higher placement rate into primary care than other COMs by far- the average in your paper is 32%, while 57% of our students enter FM, peds, or IM. We're definitely a far stretch from the average, both in outcome and in intent.
ResidencyMatchSpecialties2015.jpg
 
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Oh look a journal article making many of the same points I've been talking about for months. Mark Cummings, PhD must be a troll.

The students at may school maybe unique in that they come in preferring Primary Care.

Is that what they tell you at their interview?


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Oh look an journal paper making many of the same points I've been talking about for months. Mark Cummings, PhD must be a troll.



Is that what they tell you at their interview?


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His dissertation was probably just a really long troll post on this site.
 
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Is the TL;DR that DOs gonna get smushed?
 
Is the TL;DR that DOs gonna get smushed?

No. It will just be harder for DOs to match into things like neurosurgery, Derm, orth, etc now that they wont have DO only residencies. How much harder is all speculation. The former AOA programs may have a high preference for DOs. Or they might not. Everything else will stay the same at least until the mid 2020s when the residency crunch might start becoming a bigger problem.
 
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I'm not exactly sure how to ask this, but ill do my best: could the merger cause an increase in unmatched DO students even after the scramble? my school this year had an increase in # of unmatched students after the scramble (4.8% this year vs 0.4% last 2 years), and I'm trying to figure out if this is going to be a trend or an anomaly with this year's graduating class. also, i'm trying to figure out the national average for DO's unmatched after scramble is currently.
 
I'm not exactly sure how to ask this, but ill do my best: could the merger cause an increase in unmatched DO students even after the scramble? my school this year had an increase in # of unmatched students after the scramble (4.8% this year vs 0.4% last 2 years), and I'm trying to figure out if this is going to be a trend or an anomaly with this year's graduating class. also, i'm trying to figure out the national average for DO's unmatched after scramble is currently.
The squeeze will begin to take place as the smaller DO residencies that cannot me LCME standards become dissolved. This shift will probably take about 5 years until trend of umatched DO is evident. There will be a significantly lesser amount of residency spots (worse than now....yikes) as the osteopathic machine continues to grow. DO will become the mainstay of acgme primary care spots and there will become more bias towards DOs in order to protect more competitive spots.
 
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They've already been matriculated at the time of the survey...they have no reason to embellish, delude themselves or their classmates, or patronize us. So we believe them.


@Goro: is telling you that they are interested in primary care the "right" answer? (What is your schools mission statement?).
 
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They've already been matriculated at the time of the survey...they have no reason to embellish, delude themselves or their classmates, or patronize us. So we believe them.

I'm not sure I buy this. They still know what you want them to say. I've seen my share of faculty surveys and some pretty lousy faculty get good scores (about half the residents give every faculty member 10o% top marks). They know its anonymous and have nothing to lose. Its even true when they are surveyed after graduation when they really really know they have nothing to lose. I bet if you told them that you picked this class because they are so amazing they will be the first osteopathic class to match everyone into ENT or Ortho, you'd get different results. People are quite capable of deluding themselves and patronizing their leadership without any particular incentive for doing so.

I guess my question would be, if they suddenly were not interested in primary care based on this survey, would your administration view that negatively? If so, and they can discern that, it's not so simple.
 
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Ahhh faculty surveys! Don't get me started! With some of the comments I get you'd think the students were at a different school, much less taking my lectures!

But bad teachers getting good marks and vice versa are a different issue than polling people about their likes and dislikes as to their career goals.

I've seen my share of faculty surveys and some pretty lousy faculty get good scores (about half the residents give every faculty member 10o% top marks). They know its anonymous and have nothing to lose. Its even true when they are surveyed after graduation when they really really know they have nothing to lose.

At this point we're getting into speculation.
I bet if you told them that you picked this class because they are so amazing they will be the first osteopathic class to match everyone into ENT or Ortho, you'd get different results.


In the absence of other data, and knowing that our results are consistent not only over time but also in results at graduation (not in post-graduation polling), but in the fields our students go into...a higher proportion go into Primary Care than the national avg (not as high as one of the west coast schools..I don't have the data in front of me right now), my conclusion is that the students are being honest.


People are quite capable of deluding themselves and patronizing their leadership without any particular incentive for doing so.

Our mission is Primary Care-oriented, and it would definitely disappoint the Dean, but I think that there's nothing Administration could or would do about it. I mean, you can't put a gun to their heads and say, "all of you will be pediatricians starting now", or give them bad Dean's letter, eh?

So, I'm not making the news, just reporting it. Data is data.

I guess my question would be, if they suddenly were not interested in primary care based on this survey, would your administration view that negatively? If so, and they can discern that, it's not so simple.[/QUOTE]
 
Oh I'm definitely speculating. It's just that I encountered so many DO students while working in the .mil both in the general medicine and subspecialty environment. The military has so little anti-DO bias that we had DOs in nearly every specialty. In that environment, the DO students didn't seem any more or less interested in primary care than the allopathic students. My experience makes me skeptical that this is a real difference in their desires and not simply a supply/demand competitiveness issue. My experience is that most students choose DO because they weren't quite competitive for MD admission not because they believe in a deeper osteopathic mission. It doesn't really make sense that a marginally lower GPA/MCAT would correlate with a desire to do primary care. I think they choose primary care in part because you encourage it and, more, because they face an uphill climb into other specialties.
 
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Oh I'm definitely speculating. It's just that I encountered so many DO students while working in the .mil both in the general medicine and subspecialty environment. The military has so little anti-DO bias that we had DOs in nearly every specialty. In that environment, the DO students didn't seem any more or less interested in primary care than the allopathic students. My experience makes me skeptical that this is a real difference in their desires and not simply a supply/demand competitiveness issue. My experience is that most students choose DO because they weren't quite competitive for MD admission not because they believe in a deeper osteopathic mission. It doesn't really make sense that a marginally lower GPA/MCAT would correlate with a desire to do primary care. I think they choose primary care in part because you encourage it and, more, because they face an uphill climb into other specialties.

I could see this happening. It maybe the school environment influencing the student toward a certain speciality in an indirect way. You have mostly clubs that are primary care or certain specialties. You also have student who match into certain specialities and other students follow suit. There is a "out of sight, out of mind" phenomenon that goes into being in such schools (even true for MD schools). So if students don't see much interest in something in their schools or matching into speciality X, they are less likely to 'think' they want it themselves.
 
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I hate the AOA as much as anyone else, but I haven't really noticed too many competitive specialty AOA programs shutting down.

All the uro, ortho, ent, neurosurg, and gen surf programs in my neck of the woods are thriving. Lots of them have had their site visits already and got the thumbs up and nod and wink pretty much no problem. Nothing official yet, but I got to meet a couple of the ACGME inspectors. Their intention is not to shut down programs left and right.

The few programs I have seen shut down honestly deserved to be shut down. Blatantly horrible programs that I don't think many were applying to in the first place.

I think people are overestimating the amount of programs that will shut down. In my experience, I've seen more residencies step up to the plate and improve their program rather than just say **** it and shut their doors.
 
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I could see this happening. It maybe the school environment influencing the student toward a certain speciality in an indirect way. You have mostly clubs that are primary care or certain specialties. You also have student who match into certain specialities and other students follow suit. There is a "out of sight, out of mind" phenomenon that goes into being in such schools (even true for MD schools). So if students don't see much interest in something in their schools or matching into speciality X, they are less likely to 'think' they want it themselves.
Exactly this!!! At my school, professors to clinician faculties to guest lectures keep presuming that every single student here is going to primary care. I don't go on a week here without hearing someone said, "Since you guys are going to primary care or most family doctors need to know these stuffs or these materials here are pertinent to primary care careers, blah blah blah primary care/FM this, blah blah blah primary care/FM that." Moreover, I get emails for volunteer or work opportunities at some outpatient FM clinics or in rural places, but never see anything related to research or position to work with other specialties. The attitude is like, "Oh, you're interest in non-primary care? Sorry, we can't help. You're on your own."
 
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My class has a ton of people in the FM club, I call them undercover gunners...
 
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This paper is not surprising at all. It also doesn't tell you much. An increase of 12% of people wanting FM, and a decrease of 11% of people that were undecided at schools whose mission is to fill PC and tell you everyday how great it is. Hmmmm

:shrug:
 
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This paper is not surprising at all. It also doesn't tell you much. An increase of 12% of people wanting FM, and a decrease of 11% of people that were undecided at schools whose mission is to fill PC and tell you everyday how great it is. Hmmmm

:shrug:

Its pretty much this. Its not a surprise that most of the undecided people at DO schools go into PC. I mean if all your mentors are PC physicians, you're required to do x number of additional cores in FM, primary care, ambulatory, and most of your affiliated residencies are FM and IM, is it really a surprise at all if you end up thinking its something you're interested in?

My school has FM and Geriatrics rotations required during 3rd year, and has 2 ambulatory rotations, a primary care selective and a rural/underserved rotation done with an FM doc during 4th year. Its fair to say that we get a better picture of and more exposure to FM and PC in general than some of the MD schools around here that don't even have an FM program in house, where some do the rotation just with general IM docs, and some that don't even have a required FM rotation in 3rd year. The same can be said about the MD school in the state that focuses on PC and has many PC/FM oriented rotations. Its not a surprise that on average they send more of their grads to FM and PC than other MD schools.
 
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Oh I'm definitely speculating. It's just that I encountered so many DO students while working in the .mil both in the general medicine and subspecialty environment. The military has so little anti-DO bias that we had DOs in nearly every specialty. In that environment, the DO students didn't seem any more or less interested in primary care than the allopathic students. My experience makes me skeptical that this is a real difference in their desires and not simply a supply/demand competitiveness issue. My experience is that most students choose DO because they weren't quite competitive for MD admission not because they believe in a deeper osteopathic mission. It doesn't really make sense that a marginally lower GPA/MCAT would correlate with a desire to do primary care. I think they choose primary care in part because you encourage it and, more, because they face an uphill climb into other specialties.

Absolutely.

One dynamic that I noted at my osteopathic school was that a fair proportion of the students were, shall we say, not overly motivated/choosy enough/whatever to seek out a specific specialty aside from FM. While there definitely was a more 'hardcore' cohort that was aiming for something else and doing all the right steps to get it etc, there were a surprising number of people who seemed to go with the flow, shrug at the end of 3rd year and say 'I guess I'll do FM'. I wouldn't say most of these people had any particular passion for it, either.
 
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I'm not exactly sure how to ask this, but ill do my best: could the merger cause an increase in unmatched DO students even after the scramble? my school this year had an increase in # of unmatched students after the scramble (4.8% this year vs 0.4% last 2 years), and I'm trying to figure out if this is going to be a trend or an anomaly with this year's graduating class. also, i'm trying to figure out the national average for DO's unmatched after scramble is currently.
Yes. It could. We'll have to see how things turn out, but things are going to go down across the board, with MDs getting hit the least, DOs in the middle, and IMGs taking the brunt.
 
Its pretty much this. Its not a surprise that most of the undecided people at DO schools go into PC. I mean if all your mentors are PC physicians, you're required to do x number of additional cores in FM, primary care, ambulatory, and most of your affiliated residencies are FM and IM, is it really a surprise at all if you end up thinking its something you're interested in?

My school has FM and Geriatrics rotations required during 3rd year, and has 2 ambulatory rotations, a primary care selective and a rural/underserved rotation done with an FM doc during 4th year. Its fair to say that we get a better picture of and more exposure to FM and PC in general than some of the MD schools around here that don't even have an FM program in house, where some do the rotation just with general IM docs, and some that don't even have a required FM rotation in 3rd year. The same can be said about the MD school in the state that focuses on PC and has many PC/FM oriented rotations. Its not a surprise that on average they send more of their grads to FM and PC than other MD schools.
Plus, on rotations (at least at my school), many of our sites have unopposed FM residents- they're who we get to know best, and what we see the most of. It's pretty multifactorial, really.
 
Can someone shed light on this...?

"However, between 2001 and 2010, the number of new residency positions—that is, those that can be entered directly from medical school or with a preliminary year—increased at a compound annual rate of 0.09%."

This number seems way off from the NRMP data. It's even further off when looking at the numbers since 2010. Am I missing something about what is counted in this rate? I can't access the full text on the cited article to check, either. A 0.09% rate would mean like 20 new residencies per year during that period. As far as I can tell there has never been such a slow rate of growth, especially recently.

EDIT: Never mind, mystery solved. I found the full text of the cited paper. This author fudged the number by a factor of 10. It should be 0.9%. Even still, the rate from the past decade doesn't seem to be the best thing to use since it has at least doubled in recent years. Even accounting for things like elimination of the pre-match agreements, it has been a lot higher recently. It doesn't change his conclusion, but I might crunch some numbers for fun and try to come up with some predicted values for the coming years..
 
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Sums up what we already know... lower average Step 1 compared to MD students + DO discrimination = DO's place more into FM or IM. But I think the tides are slowly changing. We can't control the discrimination, but we can control step 1 score, and I think that has been gaining more attention.
 
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