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I thought this was a very interesting film, although pretty depressing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXHFOrBbEc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhXHFOrBbEc
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Pedigree Dogs exposed
Started by Bigcatlover
The oldest thing of old things. I'm absolutely sure we've had at least two threads about this.
Yes there are problems. Yes that docu is biased and only shows the worst of the worst. Blah blah ad nauseum.
Yes there are problems. Yes that docu is biased and only shows the worst of the worst. Blah blah ad nauseum.
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Wow, just because you've been here for 5 years and now know EVERYTHING, doesn't mean you have to be so rude. I didn't know this stuff. Maybe you should move over to the veterinary side since this is for Pre-vet students.
Thank you OP!
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I way appreciate the help from Vet students on many topics, but just coming on here to smash people's threads is pretty rude.
This forum has a search function, you can search for threads and see if things have been posted before and then bump the thread if you have something new to add. Wouldn't that be more productive than posting the same link over and over again?
When did everyone become so thin-skinned anyhow?
And it'll be worse at school where angry students email professors trying to earn back 0.5 pts on every exam and then go onto facebook to whine in public. Just gotta get used to it.
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Sorry....I thought it was different enough from the other threads I found when searching, suppose I should have looked harder.....
It is a pretty sad documentary. I really only watched the first 12 minutes, but that was more than enough. It's true, they really only show the worst of the worst, because they're trying to get a point across (it's obvious). The thing is, it really IS hard to change breed standards. And the best you can do as a vet is encourage owners looking for pure-breds to try and find the breeders that avoid the genetic lines that have hereditary diseases in them. There are some honest breeders out there that try to avoid inbreeding and produce better animals with fewer animals, it just harder to find them. But people will always be stupid about breeding, because some people generally tend to be stupid about most things. It's the way of the world. The key is to avoid them and not fund their careless breeding.
Seriously? You just learned this from the video? Isn't this fact covered in 6th grade anymore? Alexei Romanov and all?
and I remember how much from 6th grade?
i never knew really that purebred dogs were more prone to problems due to inbreeding
shrug call me stupid i don't care
anyway I never commented I learned that from the video, just that breeding apparantly for looks or whatever design the person wanted caused these problems
wow, harsh. Better be nice or you won't be raptured tomorrow.
This is a misconception. The pre-vet forums are typically for pre-vet topics, not just pre-vet students. This has come up before and I'm sure it will come up again, but a lot of information on this site is provided by those who have been through it before. A lot of those people are vet students or veterinarians. Blocking these people from the pre-vet forum would do a huge disservice to the forums.
Let's try and keep it civil, guys.
No worries, it is civil 🙂 I don't mind being ripped a new one, but i appreciate those who came to my defense. And I apologize again for not posting this in a previous thread.....what stood out for me in this film was mostly a caution to the public. I think that most people have the misconception that just because a puppy is registered with a kennel club (and thereby probably expensive) and has a thorough record of its breeding history, that it should be guaranteed a long healthy life. Based on this film, the complete lack of record of genetic diseases and regulations on breeding dogs with these genetic diseases makes the Pedigree "guarantee" pretty non-existent.
My statement wasn't really directed at you🙂. I just wanted to remind people that we should be nice to each other and that just because it says "Pre-Veterinary" on the Forum does not mean that non-pre-vets should not be allowed to post.
I also know that it can be difficult at times to get the search function working as you want it to.
I find it funny you choose my comment to respond to and take out of context. I am of the opinion that this is a pre-vet topic and just because someone is in vet school and been around the forum for many years does not give them the right to be disrepectful when someon posts or asks a question.
To just stand by and say nothing would be the greater disservice. It will discourage communication and the "newbies" from posting for fear that someone will ridicule or be hateful. If he/she wants more educated discussion then he/she should move over the the veterinary forum.
Nyanko will be nyanko and say exactly what she thinks. I don't think it was hateful - just very matter-of-fact. I don't think it was a big deal, and I'm pretty sure Bigcatlover has taken it in stride. No reason for a fuss, guys.
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Did anyone else see the title of this thread and think it was going to be about dog food testimonials?
BTW, even nyanko's friends aren't immune to being told we're full of s***. 😀 Think of it as blunt feedback on communication and logic.
BTW, even nyanko's friends aren't immune to being told we're full of s***. 😀 Think of it as blunt feedback on communication and logic.
Are you saying they are hurt...in the butt? Butt....hurt?
BakersDozen said:
Honestly if I were still a pre-vet I would find this statement more insulting than what I said.
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I also didn't think it's a big deal, but I appreciate bluntness from people. It's much better to know exactly how someone feels than to wonder or have to analyze everything. Very few people in the world have the guts to say what's on their mind. But i know it can come across as harsh for others not used to it (not referring to nyanko specifically)
Anywho. My step mom breeds dogs. And she breeds English bulldogs so that's like, the worst of the worst in terms of issues. And it is hard as someone said, to change breed standards - people WANT the Smooshed in face that gives the bulldog it's look. You can't find a bully without some sort of problem - so she does the best she can. She has her dogs images to check trachea sizes, she tries to ensure that the dogs she breeds will produce "healthy" pups - healthy by English bulldog standards. Every potential owner must come by, meet the dogs, see how they've been raised and have a chat about the health problems that will most likely occur in the animals lifetime. Their purchase contract also includes all of this information as well as contact info for a few vets who treat only English bulldogs.
I have one of her pups now as my own dog. Got him in November and he's now 8mo old (named Jagr for any hockey fans out there). Everyone I see says they love bulldogs, want a bulldog etc. I can't walk him down the street w/o being stopped multiple times. I always say that it's great that they love them but to make sure they do their research bc they basically WILL require surgery for hip probs and possibly breathing probs and who knows what else in their lifetime.
He is awfully cute though.
Well, I thank you for posting this. I didn't know about this video and I certainly wouldn't have gone searching through the archives for something I wasn't aware existed.
Be wary about boasting of his cuteness around certain people, though. I have a Boxer that I got as a puppy from a shelter I worked at for 2 years and I still get snotty comments about having a purebred dog (though who knows for sure?) from people who don't know me.
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and I remember how much from 6th grade?
i never knew really that purebred dogs were more prone to problems due to inbreeding
shrug call me stupid i don't care
anyway I never commented I learned that from the video, just that breeding apparantly for looks or whatever design the person wanted caused these problems
Well, I was in 6th grade in 1986, and I remember quite a bit of the general concepts. The fact that someone who seeks entry into vet school (I presume that is why you are on this forum) is not aware that inbreeding increases the chance for greater expression of recessive traits, which results in many diseases, amazes me.
Oh good God. People, grow thicker skins and use the damn search function. Don't turn this into a butthurt debaucle cause you felt slighted (OMGZ vet students hurt mah feelins!).
On with the topic.
On with the topic.
The Pedigree guarantee makes me laugh and s*** my pants at the same time.
Why would someone with a contemporary question want to zombie a two year old thread?
If new users are interested in starting current discussions with active pre-vet posters, how about shutting up and letting them talk?
Not every thread requires a vet student with delusions of forum grandeur trying to make undergrads feel dumb.
If new users are interested in starting current discussions with active pre-vet posters, how about shutting up and letting them talk?
Not every thread requires a vet student with delusions of forum grandeur trying to make undergrads feel dumb.
I digress. And, for those of you with thin skins I'm joking, since evidently we need that distinction.
Don't be butthurt, and don't be dicks, for those of you on either side. Have a laugh now and then.
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(the documentary is from 2008 - the discourse we've had about it here IIRC was very interesting and had a lot of really unique viewpoints in it but if you want to be a little baby about it and try to make my post into something it isn't because you want to white knight for random internet people, go right ahead)
(the documentary is from 2008 - the discourse we've had about it here IIRC was very interesting and had a lot of really unique viewpoints in it but if you want to be a little baby about it and try to make my post into something it isn't because you want to white knight for random internet people, go right ahead)
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I actually like, and advocate, purebred dogs. That said, I'm all for responsible breeding. I don't claim to know everything about the topic. I share my home with both mutts and purebreds. I sometimes have to fight feeling ashamed of the fact that I think there is a place for purebred dogs in society - and that it is mostly irresponsible breeders that breed only for CERTAIN standards that do the majority of harm.
in the end - i will probably always have a pound pup - but I will also always have a collie. it's just something that brings me joy. And I hated being the client that felt defensive of that fact... so i don't want to do that to my clients. Yes - we should be ready to educate our future clients - but I don't think it is right to vilify purebred breeders. I live in california, and literally had to search all the way to minnesota to find a breeder I truly liked and trusted.
And, as a side note, nyanko is part of SND... like her or not - she's a resource. feel free to tell her when you think she's stepped over the line (she can take it)... but realize that we are all here to help each other. it's not, actually, about inflicting pain (more about sharing in the serious pain that is vet school applications, vet school, post grad studies, and practice). and, believe me, - the pain is only just beginning (and i say that as a first year.... where my skin has nearly thickened by, like, a billion inches).
so - back to the thread topic, regardless of its past history, I think that this thread brings up some good questions - but my opinion is that highlighting only the worst of the worst is like a horror movie that actually uses ketchup for blood - its just not realistic, and you can't help but leave knowing that you were lied to. was their some truth to that lie - maybe. but it was still not reality.
in the end - i will probably always have a pound pup - but I will also always have a collie. it's just something that brings me joy. And I hated being the client that felt defensive of that fact... so i don't want to do that to my clients. Yes - we should be ready to educate our future clients - but I don't think it is right to vilify purebred breeders. I live in california, and literally had to search all the way to minnesota to find a breeder I truly liked and trusted.
And, as a side note, nyanko is part of SND... like her or not - she's a resource. feel free to tell her when you think she's stepped over the line (she can take it)... but realize that we are all here to help each other. it's not, actually, about inflicting pain (more about sharing in the serious pain that is vet school applications, vet school, post grad studies, and practice). and, believe me, - the pain is only just beginning (and i say that as a first year.... where my skin has nearly thickened by, like, a billion inches).
so - back to the thread topic, regardless of its past history, I think that this thread brings up some good questions - but my opinion is that highlighting only the worst of the worst is like a horror movie that actually uses ketchup for blood - its just not realistic, and you can't help but leave knowing that you were lied to. was their some truth to that lie - maybe. but it was still not reality.
Just a reminder to please keep discussions civil and disagreements centered around the point of interest. Whether someone is correct or incorrect is not justification to attack them personally.
Please try to stay on topic.
Please try to stay on topic.
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I've realized that ALL subjects repeat themselves on SDN. It's bound to happen because each year new people join and since everyone is pre-vet we have similar questions/interests. It's nice to let people know about the search function, but hey, if they want to start a new thread and there isn't the same one within the first couple pages then who cares. I also hate when older threads get bumped and I start reading them and then realize halfway through that the conversation is from years ago!! lol
When I was a prevet I did NOT have thick skin. If i would have felt attacked (whether or not i really was) after starting my first thread i probably would have left SDN.
So IMO, if you're an ancient SDN user I think it's best to sit back and relax if something like this bothers you and let the "new generation" of SDN users experience what you had when you first joined (i definitely don't remember these type of comments when I was a new user)
But what is "responsible" breeding given the current context, where we are killing about 4,000,000 homeless pets a year? I get that some breeders are "better" than others, but I can never understand how ANYbody can justify it when we are killing millions. Is having a dog with your favorite "look" or trait, with ears set just so and eyes the right color, really more important than saving a life? And is going to a breeder the only way to get that dog - what about breed rescue or searching shelters? I really wouldn't have a problem with "responsible" breeding if we didn't already have such a surplus of animals.
I don't say this to attack you, Pearl, but you sound like you kind of straddle the fence and I am really curious about how people who are "pro" breeding justify it given the current situation. Nobody ever gives me a straight answer, but I hear a lot of stuff like "Oh, MY dogs/my breeder's dogs would NEVER end up in a shelter..." There seems to be a complete disconnect, like people who are breeding somehow think that the numbers they produce don't add to the total and reduce the number of available homes.
This is long but I think it gives a good idea of what constitutes a responsible breeder (I didn't write it).
This was originally in different colors but it says responsible attributes first and then irresponsible for each little section.
I am all about rescue; all my animals are rescues and I've worked multiple shelter jobs and seen enough shelter euths to last me a lifetime... but I do believe that there is such a thing as responsible breeding in the show and working dog world.
This was originally in different colors but it says responsible attributes first and then irresponsible for each little section.
I am all about rescue; all my animals are rescues and I've worked multiple shelter jobs and seen enough shelter euths to last me a lifetime... but I do believe that there is such a thing as responsible breeding in the show and working dog world.
We like to make SDN a welcoming and supportive place for all users including those new to the forums. Please refrain from ridiculing and/or name-calling. As has been mentioned, thread topics tend to be cyclical--this is the nature of the forums.
If you are bothered by a thread or post, feel free to report it by clicking on the red/white triangle button in the lower left-hand corner.
If you are bothered by a thread or post, feel free to report it by clicking on the red/white triangle button in the lower left-hand corner.
Did anyone else see the title of this thread and think it was going to be about dog food testimonials?
BTW, even nyanko's friends aren't immune to being told we're full of s***. 😀 Think of it as blunt feedback on communication and logic.
Yes!!! Pedigree food is the worst...
Anyways, I always appreciate people bringing new information (maybe new information about an old problem, but still...)
I think that purebred dogs are not responsible for the surplus of dogs - if everyone was a responsible breeder, then we wouldn't have a surplus of dogs in kennels and pounds. I may have come off as straddling the fence because I adore mutts - but I also love purebred dogs. They were bred for reasons, and those reasons sometimes come with desirable qualities (i.e. certain temperament). My collie is involved in herding - for fun, and it brings us both joy. I worked for years at Guide Dogs for the Blind, where we used purebreds. When we tried a trial of using rescued or pound puppies - those dogs almost all failed out of the program because they didn't have the years of breeding for certain traits behind them to help them do the job we needed them for. I do not think that purebred breeders are causing the surplus of unwanted dogs in this country. It is the uneducated public that are not spaying or neutering their animals without plans to breed, and then RESPONSIBLY place those puppies (responsible breeding).
This thread isn't all about the surplus of pound pups, tho - it was also about the health issues that come along with purebred dogs. And part of my point was that responsible breeders do a lot of work to preserve a breed, while minimizing such health issues. In my mind - it is wrong to breed only for a physical look that also carries disease potential. BUT - I do think that it is alright and acceptable to purchase a dog from a breeder because you want a certain dog. I can tell you that there are very few purebred dogs sold by reputable breeders that end up in the shelters - that's because they have a breeder that is their to mentor the owners, and usually would rather take the dog back then see it end up in a shelter. Also - I mostly agree with the list comparing responsible breeders to backyard breeders. Breeding is about appreciating the breed for the whole package. For those of you who have certain distinct breeds - like the husky (just an example), know that it has very distinct personality traits that you might be hard pressed to find at the local shelter. And - I'm all for breed rescues, but you will find that many breed rescues don't have a huge number of dogs in them, because people involved in the breed do adopt them. The norcal collie rescue does an excellent job of placing their dogs fairly quickly. My enjoyment of a particular breed doesn't stop me from adopting my other dogs from shelters and rescues. But I still want my purebred because I know, love, and like the activities and characteristics the breed was meant for.
And, yes - the total number of dogs will increase if we have breeders - but cutting out the breeders will not stop the unending influx of dogs into the shelter. I work with a shelter in northern cali where 90% of the dogs that come in are bully breeds, and it takes A LOT of time and money to work to rehab and place these dogs. And we have a very low kill rate because of the fact that we do try VERY hard to place each dog (baring serious behavioral problems that are dangerous). But - other breed mixes are easily adoptable. Why? because even in the shelter environment - people have preferences, and some don't want bully breeds. you can't fault people for having preferences. I'm not a HUGE cat person... are you blaming me for the incredible and heartbreaking numbers of cats that are euthanized each year because I prefer canine to feline? of course not. that's where I see the disconnect. People should be allowed to have their preferences - as long as people aren't just turning blind eyes to contributing to a breed's malformation or disease state. I respect your viewpoint - and I hope i helped you see part of why I have mine.
But what percentage of breeders are "responsible"? 0.00000001%? It's very hard (I would imagine impossible) to be responsible and make a profit, the key driving force in breeding. In fact, around 25% of shelter pets are purebred. Most puppies bred end up in pet stores (puppy mills' main client) or shady in-home sellers. Once the puppy is bought there is no telling where he or she ends up.
The few not aiming to make a profit are probably trying to create the perfect member of the breed for shows, and you can see the end result of that.
Did anyone watch at least 8 min into the video? This was around where I stopped because I need to actually study for my exams lol But it also really bothered me.
Basically, they were talking about the anatomical changes in german shephards. The show dogs hind legs have changes so much it has impacted their gait. Even as only a 1st year student I could tell their gait was extremely horrible. But when interviewing the judge for the show dog competition the judge says it is the show dogs that are anatomically normal and the "working dogs" (that look more like the original german shephard) are anatomically incorrect. He bases his opinion to the breed standard written in the Kennel Club Breed Standards book.
I don't understand how someone could actually believe this. How can they base their opinions on a book someone wrote instead of original anatomy and the evolution of it? This really bothers me because even if you have "good breeders" I assume they are also breeding to follow the guidelines in this book because that is what the judges base their opinions on to win competitions.
(i dont know much about breeding so this isn't a "side i'm fighting for", it is just something that I dont understand and maybe someone with more knowledge of breeding can respond about it)
Basically, they were talking about the anatomical changes in german shephards. The show dogs hind legs have changes so much it has impacted their gait. Even as only a 1st year student I could tell their gait was extremely horrible. But when interviewing the judge for the show dog competition the judge says it is the show dogs that are anatomically normal and the "working dogs" (that look more like the original german shephard) are anatomically incorrect. He bases his opinion to the breed standard written in the Kennel Club Breed Standards book.
I don't understand how someone could actually believe this. How can they base their opinions on a book someone wrote instead of original anatomy and the evolution of it? This really bothers me because even if you have "good breeders" I assume they are also breeding to follow the guidelines in this book because that is what the judges base their opinions on to win competitions.
(i dont know much about breeding so this isn't a "side i'm fighting for", it is just something that I dont understand and maybe someone with more knowledge of breeding can respond about it)
So, I'm actually watching this for the first time. I remember it ignited quite a discussion on VIN when it first came out and haven't read the previous SDN threads on the subject.
I have extensive knowledge about neurlogical issues in dogs (compared to most folks here and some GPs, since I worked with a neurologist for years) . Have to say that so far (18 minutes in) nothing is untrue or inflammatory--in fact, if anything, I think the prevalence of Chiari malformations/syringomyelia in the British CKCS population is likely to be significantly higher than quoted in the film.
What got me to pause the video and post here was a comment made by a Ridgeback breeder. According to the film, 1 in 20 Ridgebacks are born without a ridge. This breeder is filmed saying that now she is "having problems with the young vets" who are refusing to put these dogs down because they don't have a ridge...so they usually have to take it to an older pracitioner with whom they have worked with in the past in order to get the dog put down because it's healthy otherwise...so sad.
I remember when a VERY well-known and prominent person in the US pedigree dog breeding world spoke to our vet school class our first year and talked about culling (i.e., euthanizing) her labs for color. And she is a veterinarian. And board-certified theriogenologist.
Sad but so far other than the tone of voice I don't see much overly inflammatory/incorrect about the film itself....will have to watch the rest.
ETA: Watched the rest and still have to say that it's pretty darn factually accurate. Sure there's an agenda here--but to me they're drawing correct inferences and conclusions based on facts.
I say: bring on the gliomas! the astrocytomas! the lumbosacral stenosis! The COMS! the intervertebral disc disease! the familial epilepsy! the meningiomas! the spina bifida! the a-a luxes! the hydrocephalus! Sure, why not??
So sad. Glad they put this together.
And also--I don't think they showed "the worst of the worst." One seizure a month in a dog on anti-convulsants? That's nothing. The gait of the GSD? Much worse out there. A staphylectomy in a brachycephalic dog? Puh-lease. Only one part of the magic triad of BAS. The CKCS that was eventually euthanized due to unremitting pain? Okay, that IS the worst of the worst--but it is far far too common.
I have extensive knowledge about neurlogical issues in dogs (compared to most folks here and some GPs, since I worked with a neurologist for years) . Have to say that so far (18 minutes in) nothing is untrue or inflammatory--in fact, if anything, I think the prevalence of Chiari malformations/syringomyelia in the British CKCS population is likely to be significantly higher than quoted in the film.
What got me to pause the video and post here was a comment made by a Ridgeback breeder. According to the film, 1 in 20 Ridgebacks are born without a ridge. This breeder is filmed saying that now she is "having problems with the young vets" who are refusing to put these dogs down because they don't have a ridge...so they usually have to take it to an older pracitioner with whom they have worked with in the past in order to get the dog put down because it's healthy otherwise...so sad.
I remember when a VERY well-known and prominent person in the US pedigree dog breeding world spoke to our vet school class our first year and talked about culling (i.e., euthanizing) her labs for color. And she is a veterinarian. And board-certified theriogenologist.
Sad but so far other than the tone of voice I don't see much overly inflammatory/incorrect about the film itself....will have to watch the rest.
ETA: Watched the rest and still have to say that it's pretty darn factually accurate. Sure there's an agenda here--but to me they're drawing correct inferences and conclusions based on facts.
I say: bring on the gliomas! the astrocytomas! the lumbosacral stenosis! The COMS! the intervertebral disc disease! the familial epilepsy! the meningiomas! the spina bifida! the a-a luxes! the hydrocephalus! Sure, why not??
So sad. Glad they put this together.
And also--I don't think they showed "the worst of the worst." One seizure a month in a dog on anti-convulsants? That's nothing. The gait of the GSD? Much worse out there. A staphylectomy in a brachycephalic dog? Puh-lease. Only one part of the magic triad of BAS. The CKCS that was eventually euthanized due to unremitting pain? Okay, that IS the worst of the worst--but it is far far too common.
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