Radiology Faculty--Answering Questions/"AMA"

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Keep in mind my comments in post #9, item #5. Having said that, some perspective below:

Average USMLE Step 1 for rad applicants is about 240.

Average USMLE Step 1 for the class we just matched was 250.

"Super strong" = 260 and above

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Keep in mind my comments in post #9, item #5. Having said that, some perspective below:

Average USMLE Step 1 for rad applicants is about 240.

Average USMLE Step 1 for the class we just matched was 250.

"Super strong" = 260 and above

Sounds like you are at a top program.
 
Also interested in knowing what tier program you might be at but I imagine T10 or T20?
 
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@RadiologyPD Curious premed here. Are there any radiology departments you can think of that have an interested in the application of machine learning to radiology? Are these going to be the usual-suspect-research-powerhouses (MGH, Stanford etc) or are there any others that you might be aware of?
 
@RadiologyPD Curious premed here. Are there any radiology departments you can think of that have an interested in the application of machine learning to radiology? Are these going to be the usual-suspect-research-powerhouses (MGH, Stanford etc) or are there any others that you might be aware of?

This is way off topic for this thread, but there are plenty of institutions with investigators in this area. Consider getting more information from the Society of Informatics in Imaging (SIIM)--a conference on this topic is scheduled on 9/9-10 in SF (2018 Conference on Machine Intelligence in Medical Imaging)
 
How do you feel about people dual applying to rads and another specialty. For instance they love VIR and vascular surgery, or neuro IR and interventional neurology or endocascular neurosurgery.

I am applying to rads and another field, a lot of my research is in the non rads one, but I also have some bench and some rads research. Wondering if I have to play this game and pretend like I only want to do one thing, or if I can be genuine about my interest in both fields and how they will both get me to the same endpoint albeit through different paths I would be equally happy with.
 
I kind of get what you mean by "playing the game" but I also think you don't quite get it. You actually don't end up at the same place in the scenarios you articulate. I think you need to figure out what "mundane" stuff you want to be doing in your career (interpret neuroradiology studies vs. see neurology patients vs. do temporal artery biopsies vs. read general radiology vs. see vasculopaths in clinic) and go for the pathway in which you do that mundane stuff along with the "cool" stuff you envision. You've articulated 5 different careers in your hypothesis that are completely different, and if you come across as having not decided between the 5, then you are a bit of a waste of time for me as a DR PD.

I don't quite understand why you indicate you are applying to rads and "another field". Not sure what you have to hide in narrowing down the hypothetical 5 different careers into 2 (if it's VIR vs. surgery) or 3 (if it's truly neuro IR vs. interventional neurology vs. endovascular neurosurgery).

To be honest, I don't know about the current pathway for interventional neuroradiology work and how it's going to fit with integrated IR residencies, since interventional neuroradiology usually means you have to do a 1 year Neuroradiology fellowship FIRST. I'm sorry, you aren't going to get good Neuroradiology training via an integrated IR residency--you are better off with a DR residency with IR (maybe ESIR, though you won't need the ESIR) and Neuroradiology electives in your 4th year, followed by your Neuroradiology Fellowship, followed by your interventional neuroradiology training. If you are thinking of this route, if you are competitive for Neurosurgery, go for it. Use DR as your backup, but don't come across as that guy who sees DR/Neuroradiology as sloppy seconds--I don't need uninterested residents trying to provide good DR care when they have no interest in DR, since these people generally suck at DR. "Interventional Neurology" has got to be a long shot to this career, if you ask me, since you won't get much relevant procedural experience for 4 years after medical school as you are slogging away in your internship and Neurology residency. And the mundane stuff you'll do between cases is Neurology based--if that's your love, go for it.

If it's IR vs. Vascular Surgery for you, then remember that most people who end up doing IR via the radiology route (integrated IR or DR/ESIR+independent IR) end up doing a variable amount of IR in practice (some will do 100%, but many won't) and these folks need to fill the rest of their work doing DR work. If that's what you want to do, then just go for it. If you know you need IR to be fulfilled in your career, then apply for integrated IR spots and for DR spots at places that have a robust pathway to IR. If you are ok with the mundane surgical stuff, then you are probably better off just doing vascular surgery, especially if you aren't particularly interested in DR work--because, as I said, if you aren't at all interested in DR work, you are going to suck at it.

If you haven't decided between vascular work and neurointerventional work, and you actually kind of like DR work, it seems to me your best bet is to target DR residencies which have robust pathways to IR or Neuroradiology and get the best residency you can. Gives you more time to figure it out. If you have decided your first choice isn't radiology, with radiology as your "backup", then at least understand that you are "playing the game" at the potential expense of the DR programs that interview you, not the other way around--it's your game, not theirs. Nobody in DR is really that interested in wasting their time and interview slots trying to convince you to be a radiologist.
 
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Thanks for your thoughts. I suppose I was a bit overly vague in trying to stay anonymous, my choice is just between neuro IR and neurosurgery. I have been interested in both fields from day 1 and would be just as happy reading films as doing 1 level spine cases. Am not applying to any integrated IR programs because my interventional interests are more specific to neuro and not body.

My goal is to figure out how to approach interviews without DR seeming like my backup, as my rank list will most definitely not be 1-10 Neurosurgery, 11-20 DR, it will definitely be mixed because it’s not really a backup for me and I have spent a good amount of time talking with neuro DR mentors ensuring I would be happy with that work if neuro IR didn’t pan out for one reason or another. However it seems like we are “not allowed” to like two things in applying for residency which is why this is quite frustrating. Hope that clarifies my intentions somewhat.
 
You can like 2 things, but you have to be sure that your "like" of DR comes through. If DR is not your "backup", then you should be fine.

Each DR program only has so many interview spots. They don't want to waste those on people who aren't sure DR is for them. That should be easy to understand. In your application materials (as you are trying to get an interview), your genuine interest in DR is going to have to come through.

Once you get an interview, it's ok to discuss your interest in interventional Neuroradiology vs. Neurosurgery if you want to, but probably better to focus on your genuine interest in DR and Neuroradiology. If asked about your intentions during the interview, you can be honest and say that you are excited about DR with the plan of subsequently doing a Neuroradiology fellowship followed by NeuroIR. It's fine to indicate that you are also looking at the Neurosurgery option, but be sure you can convince them that you'll do a kick ass job when you are on the Chest service if you go the DR route.
 
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When are you planning on downloading applicants' ERAS for the first time this year?
 
I'll start looking at ERAS and getting my spreadsheet started on Monday 9/17. This will identify some of the candidates we will interview. For most candidates, I'll need to wait until the MSPE on 10/1 to get a good handle on the application as we do use some of the information in the dean's letter to select individuals for interview.
 
I was wondering, when you filter based on grades do you know if that is using the student's MSPE or the transcript? I had a grade change to honors after a mistake was noticed. Its a pass on my transcript but will be honors on my MSPE
 
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Since the transcript is released before 10/1, I start with the transcript in terms of entering in my spreadsheet. A mistake on the transcript is unfortunate, because if that's your ONLY honors among the core clerkships we track, then it will look like you were not competitive in clinical grades. If you hit other metrics (high USMLE, US medical grad, geographic proximity, etc--see earlier thread) and I am interested in your application, then I always check the MSPE because I need to see the context of your grades/performance, and I'll catch the error. If, on the other hand, you had average USMLE and weren't known to us and were geographically remote and had only average letters--in other words, the application is marginal and may not get "picked up" for careful review--then it's possible that a seemingly average clinical performance due to your transcript mistake could make me not really pick up your application.

The impact kind of depends on how important that single Honors grade is to your overall application. Can it make or break the application?--not likely, but theoretically if you are on the bubble of me looking at your application in depth, it could make a small difference.

If you have programs you are super interested in where you think this error could make a difference, you could go to the effort of reaching out to the Program Coordinator of those few programs to inform them of the error.
 
When is a good time to freak out and apply to more programs?
My stats are high 240's/250's with some research but I have only a couple of interview invites so far.
 
When is a good time to freak out and apply to more programs?
My stats are high 240's/250's with some research but I have only a couple of interview invites so far.
Did you apply to a broad variety of programs (and how many)? MD/DO applicant? Just based on your scores you've passed the initial bar. My invitations were pretty spread out over a few months, though.
 
Did you apply to a broad variety of programs (and how many)? MD/DO applicant? Just based on your scores you've passed the initial bar. My invitations were pretty spread out over a few months, though.

US MD student. I applied to ~ 50 programs all over the place. Based on your experience, should I just wait for more invites? People on the spreadsheet this year are talking about doing LOIs now (already). I was wondering if I should get on the boat now as well.
 
US MD student. I applied to ~ 50 programs all over the place. Based on your experience, should I just wait for more invites? People on the spreadsheet this year are talking about doing LOIs now (already). I was wondering if I should get on the boat now as well.

LOI this early in the game is super nutso. You should be fine with 50 provided you applied to a broad mix of academic reaches, mid tier programs, and strong community shops. FWIW had similar stats and the bulk of my interviews were sent during the second half of October and early November.
 
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Some applicants are "more favored" by the program than others prior to the interview, either due to the "paper" application (things that can be gleaned from the application materials, such as scores, letters, class rank, etc) or due to prior interactions with the program (positive impressions during a rotation or on research projects).

I don't think programs have the time to waste on "pity interviews" per se (in which they are giving an interview out of some sense that the applicant won't get any interviews anywhere else), but there are "courtesy interviews" in which the applicant might not have been able to secure an interview but the person is chosen for interview due to some relationship (either with the program or with an advocate that the program values). These applicants might come in with lower "paper" credentials, but can help themselves with good interview interactions.

Personally, we try to severely limit the number of courtesy interviews because they aren't really fair to the applicant (who is spending time, money, and mental energy on the interview) if they really aren't competitive to other applicants.
 
Numbers: MD student at a 2nd tier large Midwest school (ranked 40s-50s on US News by research), 263 step 1, 3 honors/1 high pass in 3rd year so far, 1 publication (about radiology education, not hardcore science research), 1 manuscript pending (more hardcore rads research), 1 presentation/abstract about psych/neuro research (with fmri component), 4 leadership experiences in med school.

I want to aim for the academic heavy programs in the Midwest, southeast, and Southwest. I have family connections to MW and SW.

What programs in these regions am I competitive for? For the programs that I'm not competitive for, what should I do (away rotations, more research etc)? Thank you!
 
Numbers: MD student at a 2nd tier large Midwest school (ranked 40s-50s on US News by research), 263 step 1, 3 honors/1 high pass in 3rd year so far, 1 publication (about radiology education, not hardcore science research), 1 manuscript pending (more hardcore rads research), 1 presentation/abstract about psych/neuro research (with fmri component), 4 leadership experiences in med school.

I want to aim for the academic heavy programs in the Midwest, southeast, and Southwest. I have family connections to MW and SW.

What programs in these regions am I competitive for? For the programs that I'm not competitive for, what should I do (away rotations, more research etc)? Thank you!

DR or IR? If DR, you are in good shape to be competitive for most of the big academic places in those regions. No interviews are guaranteed, but you're not out of the running for any program. Strong, high tier programs in those regions include Northwestern, MIR, UMich, University of Wisconsin, Emory, Duke, and UTSW.

If IR, it's a crapshoot.
 
RadiologyPD: Thank you for your time and dedication to helping potential candidates. My interview is coming up (perhaps at your school) and I'm preparing my script. Would it be ok to jot down important points on a piece of paper and bring it with me to the interview? JIC I forget a point here and there during an one-on-one interview. Would most interviewers take off points for that?
 
Not really. It's ok to have the "script" with you but look at it in the bathroom or between interviews, and keep it in your folder. Don't pull it out in the interview to review unless/until the questioner asks you "do you have any questions" or "is there something important that you'd like to understand about our program"...at which point if you absolutely need to, you can pull it out and say "I've learned so much today, do you mind if I just check my list so I don't walk away with something unanswered" or something like that--again, only in the event you are flailing and need the crutch. But I'd suggest you'd be better off not even doing that--it just seems too "scripted". Definitely don't be looking at it like a football coach looks at his playsheet on the sidelines--that won't come across well. You can take notes during the PD presentation, but in an interview, keep your eyes on the interviewer (without coming across scary), stay engaged in the conversation.
 
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@RadiologyPD- Thank you for your time and advice. What kind of an impact will remediating an MS1 patient care course have for a US MD student? Given average STEP 1 for DR (240s), multiple radiology related research projects, and strong clinical grades, will this be a huge red flag and make my application extremely weak? This course will show up as a remediation on both the transcript as well as MSPE.
 
@RadiologyPD- Thank you for your time and advice. What kind of an impact will remediating an MS1 patient care course have for a US MD student? Given average STEP 1 for DR (240s), multiple radiology related research projects, and strong clinical grades, will this be a huge red flag and make my application extremely weak? This course will show up as a remediation on both the transcript as well as MSPE.

Remediation looks bad but can be overcome. The fact it was an MS1 "patient care course" might make me think the grading was subjective and you potentially had a malignant observer, and that it could have been due to your novice state as an M1. I won't lie, I don't like to see students that have had to remediate a course because you just don't want to have anyone with a "history" of not living up to minimum expectations. But with strong clerkship grades, you should be fine.
 
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@RadiologyPD Thanks so much for this awesome thread! I was wondering about the typical day-to-day of an IR in terms of time spent doing IR stuff vs time spent doing DR stuff (reading). How does this differ in PP vs in academics? I think I'm interested in IR, but I like the idea of still doing a significant amount of DR in my practice as well. Though I think I'm interested in going into academics, I've heard that IRs in academics tend to do mostly or only IR. How much DR are you still able to practice as an academic IR?
 
@RadiologyPD Thanks so much for this awesome thread! I was wondering about the typical day-to-day of an IR in terms of time spent doing IR stuff vs time spent doing DR stuff (reading). How does this differ in PP vs in academics? I think I'm interested in IR, but I like the idea of still doing a significant amount of DR in my practice as well. Though I think I'm interested in going into academics, I've heard that IRs in academics tend to do mostly or only IR. How much DR are you still able to practice as an academic IR?

Of the three programs where I've worked, including as a resident, the IR's diagnostic work was limited to CTAs. Even then, they would go unread for so long that the body guys would just read them so they didn't have to look at them on their list anymore.

As it stands right now, you won't have trouble finding work in private practice as an interventionalist looking to do a substantial amount DR. That's exactly what groups are looking for.
 
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Of the three programs where I've worked, including as a resident, the IR's diagnostic work was limited to CTAs. Even then, they would go unread for so long that the body guys would just read them so they didn't have to look at them on their list anymore.

As it stands right now, you won't have trouble finding work in private practice as an interventionalist looking to do a substantial amount DR. That's exactly what groups are looking for.

Thanks for the insight! Do you think that it would be possible to find a job in academics as an IR who wants to do a good amount DR? Or do you think that this is something most academic places aren't looking for/offering?
 
Thanks for the insight! Do you think that it would be possible to find a job in academics as an IR who wants to do a good amount DR? Or do you think that this is something most academic places aren't looking for/offering?

Academic departments are renown, I dare say infamous, for letting people carve out niches for themselves. I'm sure you could make it happen, although it would be largely dependent on how flexible the chair is willing to be.
 
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It depends on what you mean by "academics".

Let's define academics as being in a practice in which you work with trainees fairly regularly. This isn't the only way to define academics by the way--there are some academic radiologists in some institutions focused on research who may infrequently work with trainees--but I think the nature of your question suggests the definition of academics I'm using here.

Within the academic world I've defined, you'll have some people who are at hospital settings in which most if not all of the radiologists focus exclusively in one subspecialty area. In those settings, the basic answer to your question of whether you can be an "IR doing DR" is not really. The reason is that in those settings, the degree of subspecialization is a function of EXPERTISE. You get to do IR in those settings because you are an IR expert; it then begs the question as to what is your DR expertise, and how did you acquire it? If you don't have DR expertise, how do you justify being an active part of the subspecialty Divisions that have carved up the DR work? If you subdivide the DR work into some fairly basic categories--Neuroradiology, MSK, Breast, Chest, Abdomen, Ultrasound (often lumped in with Body), Nuclear--then how did you develop expertise in that area to allow you to bring value to those Divisions? And at the same time be an expert in IR?

But, there are other hospital settings within the academic world in which some flexibility of the staff is important--when I was a resident, the county hospital and the VA setting in my residency were just such places, where it was important that some of the people doing IR also be able to do 1 other thing, so that there were enough people doing IR so that call was manageable, but then also things to do for those IR faculty when they weren't doing IR. At big residencies, there are often these hospital settings where the residents/fellows go to get great training, and the staff isn't as subspecialized as at the "big house" university hospital. You generally still need to develop some level of expertise in the DR work you are doing, and this usually requires some concentrated training or practice experience in the DR area you do outside of IR--otherwise, how do you add value teaching residents when your knowledge base and experience isn't much more than a 4th year resident? Furthermore, even the model I describe is changing at some places--at my former residency location, I've heard that IR now just collectively covers all the hospitals, obviating the need to have on site faculty who are capable of doing IR and DR.

If your definition of academics includes research, then it's even more important to be a subspecialty expert...and it's hard (not impossible) to be an expert in one of the subspecialty DR areas AND be an expert in all of IR.

Note, it works the other way too. I'm actually not an IR radiologist, but I do a ton of procedures that might be part of an IR Division at other centers, and which are sometimes done by the IR Division in my own center (depending on who is available). My expertise is in one of the subspecialty DR areas, and I've carved out expertise in procedures that go along with that specialty area as part of 25 years of experience doing those procedures.

Finally, one area that could get carved out with both IR and DR expertise is Pediatric Radiology. If you are working in a children's hospital, I could see you doing IR and DR together in an academic practice. It's a variation of the theme of being in a practice setting in which some flexibility of expertise on the part of the IR rads is useful because it helps to have more people capable of doing IR than are truly needed on any given day, and then you have to have something else for those people to do.
 
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That's not an accurate statement. We do interview DO students, and we do rank DO students. Probably one day a DO student will match with us.

I'm trying to be as transparent as possible. What I've said is that we aren't a program that thinks that someone who gets a 270 on USMLE Step 1 and/or 2 is necessarily going to be a better radiologist than someone who gets a 245. We can only interview 15% of the applicants who send an application, the median applicant has a USMLE score of around 240, and we do interview some whose USMLE score is lower because of other compelling aspects of the application--so lots of applicants with great USMLE scores don't get an interview with us. My program is in the West, which is notoriously one of the most popular areas of the country in terms of number of applicants.

If you are a DO student and want to get an interview with us, you have to have a hook and it can't be that you got a 270 on USMLE because in our program, we don't care about your USMLE once it satisfies a certain level and we have lots of non-DO students who are over that level. What's your hook? Here are some that have worked for DO students who have secured an interview with us:
1. Top 1-5 in a class of over 250 (it seems many of the DO schools are huge, which always makes me worried about them being a factory).
2. Was able to hook up with a radiology research mentor who gushes about the candidate.
3. Has some connection with our faculty in some way, and the faculty gushes about the candidate.
4. Compelling story or diverse circumstances.

What doesn't usually count for much at this stage is extracurricular activities (like "Radiology interest group president").

Once you get the interview, you have to fight to be ranked higher BECAUSE one of the reasons we select students is in their ability to help us recruit students in the future. Like it or not, if my residents went to top 5 medical schools, it LOOKS more impressive to future applicants than if they all went to marginal schools. So you having gone to DO school need to compensate for that in some way; you are helped if you have a sparkling personality that will help me attract candidates in the future, and that the faculty will love. You are helped if I think your career path is going to somehow be inspirational to future applicants. If you are aspiring to get a standard private job in my city, and in fact decided to go to the nearest DO school instead of moving across the country to go to some MD school, that tells me that your career path is "typical"--and I need you to be more than typical because I can get plenty of typical from the other standard MD applicants.

Nothing has changed from that perspective. We have interviewed and are interviewing some DO students--it's just harder for them to get an interview and then harder for them to get ranked at a level that matches in our program because many are just typical high test-score students--but without a hook that is strong enough to pull them into the better spots on our match list.
 
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These are great questions. I'll try to tackle them in depth, but it's going to take a while for me.

I thought it might help to understand process for selection for interview at my place. You can glean what I'm looking for at this stage of the application process--it only applies to selection for interview, not ranking after interview.

Here's what I do:

1. I download the ERAS application data into an excel spreadsheet which allows me to create custom parameters and is easier for me to filter/sort and quickly review. ERAS allows you to download certain parameters. Each applicant is a row, and I type notes and create formulas into custom columns that I create.

2. I personally select the resident applicants that we will interview from the hundreds of applications we get. It’s just too slow and hard to do this with a committee. At my old institution, this was also done by essentially 1 person (not me back then), but I don’t know if they have changed that. I have a “2nd reviewer” for borderline cases, maybe I use that for 3-4 applications each year.

3. If an applicant has taken USMLE Step 2, I average that score with Step 1. If an applicant hasn’t’ taken USMLE Step 2, I add 5 points to their Step 1 score and create a “derived Step 2” score (edit 3/2018--for the 2018 Match, we just used the Step 1 score as the person's Step 2 score for our spreadsheet/formulas--this really does underestimate the Step 2 score, since most people do better on Step 2 than Step 1). In our applicant pool, the average applicant has a Step 2 score that is about 7-10 points higher than Step 1. So it hurts you a little if you haven’t taken Step 2 because my assumed score for you is not as high as it statistically would be if you are the average applicant.

4. Turns out I apply a formula to the “combined USMLE score” that discounts super-high achievement. Essentially, as your score on Step 1 or Step 2 gets higher from 250, you get less added points. For example, someone who gets 250 on Step 1 and Step 2 has a combined score of 500 in my system. However, someone who gets 265 on Step 1 and Step 2 has a combined score of 515 in my system, not 530 (and the score is capped there, meaning even higher scores don't add points). I don’t want super-high achievement on USMLE to dominate an applicant’s eventual “overall score”, or to make up for lower clinical grades and interview scores. This last year, in our program, our applicants had a mean combined USMLE score of 494, and a median of 498, with a standard deviation of 19. Remember, those scores have been adjusted to discount performance substantially above 250 in a formulaic way that progressively discounts numbers the farther above 250.

5. We filter out the applications based on USMLE scores, but we use a really low threshold—in our case, we use a “soft” 220 USMLE step 1 score, which generally means I will consider applicants in the 215-220 range based on strength of school and how well they did on step 2, as well as other factors. Right now the average Step 1 score for all medical students is about 228 or so, I believe, so allowing someone to be as low as 215 in our case means you don’t necessarily have to be book smart to get into our program. However, radiology boards is now a computerized test, and we don’t want to worry about residents who may become outstanding radiologists but who might struggle with tests. There is too much of a penalty for our program in future applicant perception if one of our residents fails the boards. (edit 3/2018: despite our willingness to look at applicants with lower than average board scores, the average Step 1 score for the applicants we matched in March 2018 was 250, and the average Step 2 score was 258).

6. Our residency essentially filters out applicants who are IMGs—to be honest, I think there are some outstanding candidates in this group particularly from those individuals who are not from the US, but the problem is that it is really difficult to find those for me because we don’t use test scores as much in our ranking process. Communication skills are very important to us, and that can be a sticking point for some IMGs who did not grow up in the US that we don’t understand until the interview, and I don’t want to waste people’s time with interviews if there is a low chance of success. On the other hand, we understand there are some life circumstances and other legitimate reasons why some applicants who are US based ended up doing medical school internationally. So I download these into my spreadsheet, dig deeper at maybe the candidates with board scores above 250 to see if I recognize the school, review publications, special experiences, special circumstances, etc. Sometimes a colleague will ask me to look carefully at a person that someone in their field has highlighted for them. We do interview a few IMGs every year (< 5), and some are quite good. However, they face hurdles all along the way in our ranking process—just being honest.

7. We do the same as #6 for DO candidates. We do interview a few every year (< 3), but we believe there is a penalty for our program in future applicants if we have a number of DO residents, mainly because there is the perception that we couldn’t attract the best MD candidates. It’s unfortunate for some DO students who are going to be great, but it is reality.

8. One of the filters I use to select who to interview is 3rd year core clerkship performance. This is a really tough metric, since the schools are all over the place. Believe it or not, I spend the time to create a “translation formula” that looks at the % of Honors/High Pass/Pass from each US medical school from which we receive an application, so I can compare the performance of students from different schools—even then, it’s not easy and likely not accurate. For example, just looking at my spreadsheet for this year, I see that for the core clerkships that we review, at the University of Central Florida 52% of students got Honors and 48% got High Pass (no one just passed), whereas at Florida International University 14% got Honors and 29% got High Pass. I have a convoluted formula that tries to “normalize” this data, so that the student at FIU that got High Pass is given the same number of points as the student at UCF that got Honors.

9. Since I have to actually open up the application to get the 3rd year clerkship performance and % honors/high pass/pass data, I do quickly jot down a few notes about the candidate at this time—I’ll jot down a few sentences about the candidate about their particular timeline, skimming the personal statement, looking quickly at the research history, etc. I quickly look at the Dean’s letter (if available) to look for red flags (repeat courses). I do put down what “quartile” the Dean’s letter says you are in. I don’t have time to review LORs at this point UNLESS I can tell that the candidate is probably going to be on my “borderline” for selecting for interview. For example, here is a typical fictional set of notes that I might jot down in my “comment” box for a candidate at this point: “Brown undergrad; 1 yr gap spent as research intern for startup and also doing volunteer work; PS specifically mentions us”. In the “Dean’s letter” box, I might put “2nd quartile”.

10. My spreadsheet combines the “3rd year clerkship score” with the USMLE average score (either real or derived) in a way that weights the clerkship score. This gives each applicant a “non-interview” score—that is, their score without consideration of the interview. As you will see later, the eventual evaluation of a candidate relies more on the interview than this score. But this is the metric that helps us decide who to interview.

11. I sort my spreadsheet using the “non-interview” score to decide who to interview. For about 67% of our interview slots, I just take them from the top. For the final 33%, I use a different lower threshold for interviewing applicants who are considered “local” (from our med school and schools within about 100 miles of our urban program), “regional” (about 500 miles), and “national” (everyone else). The reason we do this is because we find that applicants are more likely to not cancel interviews and match with us if they are local or regional. We also don’t want to piss off our school/the local schools and not interview their students—to a degree. We won’t interview if someone is really not going to be up to snuff based on performance. If a national candidate has ties to our area that are obvious in the application (I look at permanent address and undergraduate location), then they get put in the local pile. Similarly, if the applicant did a rotation with us, we consider them in the local pile even if they aren’t. However, we don’t take that many medical students outside our own medical school for rotations. Along with the varying thresholds based on geography, I look at my comments and the “Dean’s letter comments” to decide who to select for these final 33%.

12. If the applicant is AOA, they almost always get an interview. Turns out they always score above my threshold on the non-interview score anyway (makes sense, since AOA status is generally a function of traits that are well reflected in the USMLE scores and core clerkship grades). However, we sometimes have an AOA student who I end up not interviewing, because of something in the application that is a red flag that I can easily see from my spreadsheet (repeating a course, something in the Dean’s letter).

13. We slightly “overinterview” in our program—basically, interview about 10-14 applicants for every spot, even though we typically fill our spots at the 5-8 applicant/spot filled mark—and even then, about 3/4ths of our class is filled before the 5 applicant/spot mark. The reason we do this is because we don’t trust that our combined “USMLE + clinical clerkship” score is so precise that we can rely on it, and we sometimes find that applicants we end up ranking fairly high would not have been offered an interview with us if we had not “overinterviewed”. (note: in 2018, we ended up filling at the 4 applicant/spot mark, so we are reducing the number of people we interview).

So, a few things should be evident so far, regarding “how to get an interview” at my program:

1. Do well on USMLE tests, but no need to ace it. Does it help to get a 270 vs. a 250?—not really.

2. Do well on 3rd year core clerkships.

3. Be local or communicate your connection to my community in some way—it lowers the threshold for you getting an interview. Say it in the personal statement if it is true. Even then, you might want to email me in advance if that local connection isn’t obvious in the application.

4. I don’t have time to consider whether you decided not to do a rotation with us at the “select for interview” stage. I don’t have time or an easy way to consider the strength of your research record. I don’t have time to look at your Dean’s letter in depth beyond just trying to make sure there is no coded “red flag” and to understand your relative performance. I don’t have time to consider your extracurricular activities.

Once you get selected for interview, the selection metrics become more nuanced—another long discussion for another day.


hi, how would you deal with a radiologist graduated overseas, took step 1, 2 very good score and CS high performance?
 
Hello! Recently I've been considering diagnostic radiology and love what I've learned about it so far. My only concern is radiation exposure.

I have no real interest in IR. This being said, I understand that a radiologist needs to be generally trained in all basic radiology, not just the part he/she prefers.

In residency, how often is one doing procedures that expose them to notable radiation? Is it realistic to imagine avoiding such procedures as an attending in a semi-rural setting? Or is that only possible in telerads?

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hi, how would you deal with a radiologist graduated overseas, took step 1, 2 very good score and CS high performance?

I take your question to mean that the person completed a radiology residency overseas (hence, is a radiologist) and has now moved to this country and has good step 1 and 2 scores.

Still need a hook. Figure out why the program should take you outside of the fact that you have good test scores (because lots of people have good test scores), and emphasize how that aligns with what the program wants.

As a reminder, here's what we want in our program, and the "translation":

• A person we enjoy working with: friendly, easy-going but compulsive about getting tasks done and done right, able to take feedback, bends over backwards to help out
• A person we can trust to do the best job: great potential for developing excellent clinical skills, demeanor, motivation
• A person who has fabulous interactions with clinical colleagues: If the most arrogant surgeon comes down to review a case, will this person be able to handle it well?
• A person who can help us recruit: are they likable, present themselves well, will they pursue the best possible fellowships wherever that may be, will they not have a problem crushing Boards
• A person we are excited to see at a meeting after they leave residency: someone with which we are proud to be associated
• A person who might have an inspirational career trajectory: Becomes an academic radiologist, or pursues a leadership role in private practice, organized radiology, or the community
 
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Hello! Recently I've been considering diagnostic radiology and love what I've learned about it so far. My only concern is radiation exposure.

If you aren't going to pursue fluoroscopically-guided procedures/test in your career, radiation exposure will not be a problem. The amount you'll get in residency is highly monitored and should not be an issue.
 
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I take your question to mean that the person completed a radiology residency overseas (hence, is a radiologist) and has now moved to this country and has good step 1 and two scores.

Still need a hook. Figure out why the program should take you outside of the fact that you have good test scores (because lots of people have good test scores), and emphasize how that aligns with what the program wants.

As a reminder, here's what we want in our program, and the "translation":

• A person we enjoy working with: friendly, easy-going but compulsive about getting tasks done and done right, able to take feedback, bends over backwards to help out
• A person we can trust to do the best job: great potential for developing excellent clinical skills, demeanor, motivation
• A person who has fabulous interactions with clinical colleagues: If the most arrogant surgeon comes down to review a case, will this person be able to handle it well?
• A person who can help us recruit: are they likable, present themselves well, will they pursue the best possible fellowships wherever that may be, will they not have a problem crushing Boards
• A person we are excited to see at a meeting after they leave residency: someone with which we are proud to be associated
• A person who might have an inspirational career trajectory: Becomes an academic radiologist, or pursues a leadership role in private practice, organized radiology, or the community

HI,
First I want to thank you for your response.
I love my work that's why I don't care to spend the rest of my life becoming once again radiologist. I miss those times when I use to sit with my pears, spending all the night reading, reviewing our seniors' cases, learning or helping other brother residents on their night duties.
I have encountered so many arrogant surgeons, I never got bothered by their attitude, I understand that it is hard to be investigated by a radiologist who sees inside human bodies after your surgery is done, or especially if it got complicated. I was part of the multidisciplinary teams, treating pulmonary cancer and colorectal cancer, where I spent 1 year with each of them. I taught ultrasound to other M.D who work in remote zones in my country, and our goal was to spread affordable US investigation to help those poor people, and we wanted to set up a network (in this one we encountered financial difficulties). Globally, I am still thankful for my experience, and I so grateful to my mentors who helped me. Radiology is in my veins running like blood, however, when it rich the heart, it will never leave.
 
Hi @RadiologyPD , thank you for all the effort you put into answering questions here. It is so valuable for us med students trying to find our way through this process.

Obviously it looks bad to spend an extra year in pre-clinicals. On the other hand this leaves more time to study for Step 1 and produce research.

From your perspective, to what extent can a solid Step 1 and some Radiology research compensate for taking an extra year? I would guess this effectively disqualifies from matching at MGH, but assuming they do well from here what are the chances of matching mid-tier academic or community DR programs?

Thanks so much!
 
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From your perspective, to what extent can a solid Step 1 and some Radiology research compensate for taking an extra year? I would guess this effectively disqualifies from matching at MGH, but assuming they do well from here what are the chances of matching mid-tier academic or community DR programs?

To be honest, this type of issue (taking 3 years to complete the first 2 years of med school) is the least likely to affect a person's chances of getting a desired radiology residency program. For our program (and most, I assume), the Step 1 score is a proxy for the first 2 yrs of medical school--meaning that the residency is likely to ONLY look at the score and not even glance or record the applicants M1 and M2 grades. This is because many schools are just pass/fail for the M1/M2 years anyway.

Now, admittedly if the candidate FAILED a course in M1/M2 year, it will look bad BUT if the program is reasonably assured that the problem was situational (like health reasons) or has otherwise been "fixed" and the Step 1 score is good, then it shouldn't be a problem. It will be obvious that the person's path was delayed (because the MSPE will explicitly state that, and the applicant has to put that in the ERAS application), but the person has a chance to explain it also--if the explanation is legit and no longer an issue, then it shouldn't be a problem.
 
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Hi @RadiologyPD
How big of a factor is securing a visa (H1b or J1) for Canadian students at US-MD school, and how much do you factor this into when evaluating applicants for interviews? I'm a med student on the east coast (originally from Canada) with above average scores and some radiology related research, and was wondering how much of a disadvantage I am at in comparison to my American colleagues.

Won't lie, it's going to be a factor and it depends on the program. In my program, we don't consider applicants who need visa support. There are some outstanding applicants that we miss out on with this approach, but we don't want to get burned by visa issues that can come up at the last minute...and we have too many excellent applicants for our program that allows us to do this. Shouldn't really be an issue for Canada, I would think, but in the current political climate, I just don't know.
 
I'm not sure that 245-249 USMLE from an unknown DO school will do the trick for an "average DR program" since the "average DR program" doesn't usually fill with DO candidates.

Here's a somewhat silly question. What would you consider to be a "known" DO school? AT Still University? Des Moines University? Western U? etc.
 
I guess they are all unknown to me in terms of the quality of the faculty/training, so I was using the term because the OP used the term ("largely unknown DO school"). Sorry for the confusion--I will edit the post.
 
Hi @RadiologyPD!

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I'm currently an M1 who's aspiring to become a radiologist. I have a quick question research experiences for residency. First and foremost, I'm wondering:

1) In general, is not having research experience a deal breaker for your residency program?

2) Do research experiences have to be in radiology? I've been having trouble finding research that is specific to radiology at my school. Would it be okay to do research in a different field, say EM?

3) How important is it to not only have experience, but also to have publications etc, radiology or non-radiology relates.

4) What other extracurriculars do you view as important to be a well-rounded application? I have an incredible interest in teaching, but I haven't found a way to express that in a benifical way in medical school or for residency since my undergrad TA days, where I was incredibly well-recieved.
 
Radiology PD, thanks so much for taking the time to do this.

I had a few questions for you. I'm in somewhat of a different circumstance (maybe not so unique with rads). I was in a unique kind of IM residency program that I started in medical school (I never had to go through the match, so it is unfamiliar to me). I'm currently a PGY-2 (will complete IM residency June 2020). I have had doubts about my specialty choice and have been thinking about trying to switch into radiology for quite sometime. I talked with my home school PD and was able to get an interview for their advanced program. I am now submitting my rank list (only one program as I was unable to go on any other interviews due to busy rotations and was very late to the process). I'm likely being paranoid, but will the system allow me to match even though it won't recognize that I will have completed a "preliminary year" (I am planning on finishing my IM residency prior to starting radiology, if accepted that is). Like I said, I just never went through the match so I'm trying to make sure I am navigating it correctly.

Also, I am trying to figure out a plan of action if I don't match this year. Can I still apply for advanced programs next year even if I don't complete a year of PGY training the year prior to starting radiology residency (I would technically be an attending)? Or do you have to complete a year of preliminary medicine the year prior to radiology residency no matter what? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Finally, will it look bad next year if I don't match this cycle (again, I only applied to one program). Should I count my losses this year and withdrawal from the match? This program would very likely be my #1 regardless of any other programs I interviewed at because of location. I just don't want to screw my chances to get in next year when I can apply more broadly. If it helps I do feel I'm a competitive applicant to get interviews at least - Step 1 249, Step 2 254, AOA. I feel like I did okay during the interview, I'm not a very good judge of myself in situations like that.

Reading through this I think I am overly worried, but I appreciate your help. Just hopeful to get into radiology!
 
1) In general, is not having research experience a deal breaker for your residency program?

2) Do research experiences have to be in radiology? I've been having trouble finding research that is specific to radiology at my school. Would it be okay to do research in a different field, say EM?

3) How important is it to not only have experience, but also to have publications etc, radiology or non-radiology relates.

See post #306 and #325. For my program, a candidate's research experience tells us 2 things: (1) how hard did this person work to "check all the boxes" for being a competitive candidate; speaks to motivation more than true research ability/interest; (2) career path: if the person tells me that they are "interested in academics" but hasn't done any research, then they really aren't that interested in academics.

Remember, we don't feel our graduates have to go into academics, BUT we want them to have career paths of which we are proud and which help us recruit great residents in the future--that's easiest to accomplish if the graduate goes into academics. See post #389 for a summary of what we are looking for overall. So not having research experiences is not a deal-breaker, but then I'm going to have to understand what you did instead to show your motivation and what your "dream" is for your work in the future. What do you want to be when you finish residency, and how does that help me?

For us, the research does not have to be in radiology. That may or may not be true for other PDs/selection committees, I just don't know.

It helps to have publications as evidence of the work. Otherwise, I just have to take it on faith that you were effective in getting things done.

4) What other extracurriculars do you view as important to be a well-rounded application? I have an incredible interest in teaching, but I haven't found a way to express that in a benifical way in medical school or for residency since my undergrad TA days, where I was incredibly well-recieved.

I don't have any magic formula to offer in terms of the types of extracurriculars, but it helps to see that you have passion, leadership, stick-with-it, etc. To be honest, this part of the application is just like the way colleges look at high school students, and medical schools look at college students. You should be well familiar with it by now.
 
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I had a few questions for you. I'm in somewhat of a different circumstance (maybe not so unique with rads). I was in a unique kind of IM residency program that I started in medical school (I never had to go through the match, so it is unfamiliar to me). I'm currently a PGY-2 (will complete IM residency June 2020). I have had doubts about my specialty choice and have been thinking about trying to switch into radiology for quite sometime. I talked with my home school PD and was able to get an interview for their advanced program. I am now submitting my rank list (only one program as I was unable to go on any other interviews due to busy rotations and was very late to the process). I'm likely being paranoid, but will the system allow me to match even though it won't recognize that I will have completed a "preliminary year" (I am planning on finishing my IM residency prior to starting radiology, if accepted that is). Like I said, I just never went through the match so I'm trying to make sure I am navigating it correctly.

Also, I am trying to figure out a plan of action if I don't match this year. Can I still apply for advanced programs next year even if I don't complete a year of PGY training the year prior to starting radiology residency (I would technically be an attending)? Or do you have to complete a year of preliminary medicine the year prior to radiology residency no matter what? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

Finally, will it look bad next year if I don't match this cycle (again, I only applied to one program). Should I count my losses this year and withdrawal from the match? This program would very likely be my #1 regardless of any other programs I interviewed at because of location. I just don't want to screw my chances to get in next year when I can apply more broadly. If it helps I do feel I'm a competitive applicant to get interviews at least - Step 1 249, Step 2 254, AOA. I feel like I did okay during the interview, I'm not a very good judge of myself in situations like that.

Reading through this I think I am overly worried, but I appreciate your help. Just hopeful to get into radiology!

Yes, you can match. I'm assuming your IM residency is ACGME accredited--if so, the internship year counts (not to mention that you'll be done with the entire residency).

Yes, if you don't match this year, you can apply for advanced programs OR "R" programs next year.

No one will realize that you didn't match this cycle since you are in a residency. It's obvious when a person doesn't match out of medical school since they are typically in a prelim spot when they are applying again. You aren't screwing any chances by only applying to your #1 program this year because of location.

Your stated metrics (Step 1 249, Step 2 254, AOA) are more than sufficient. I'd be surprised if you did not match this year UNLESS you just aren't a good personality match for the program. If you don't match this year, you will definitely match next year by applying more broadly, barring any red flag that hasn't been stated.
 
See post #306 and #325. For my program, a candidate's research experience tells us 2 things: (1) how hard did this person work to "check all the boxes" for being a competitive candidate; speaks to motivation more than true research ability/interest; (2) career path: if the person tells me that they are "interested in academics" but hasn't done any research, then they really aren't that interested in academics.

Remember, we don't feel our graduates have to go into academics, BUT we want them to have career paths of which we are proud and which help us recruit great residents in the future--that's easiest to accomplish if the graduate goes into academics. See post #389 for a summary of what we are looking for overall. So not having research experiences is not a deal-breaker, but then I'm going to have to understand what you did instead to show your motivation and what your "dream" is for your work in the future. What do you want to be when you finish residency, and how does that help me?

For us, the research does not have to be in radiology. That may or may not be true for other PDs/selection committees, I just don't know.

It helps to have publications as evidence of the work. Otherwise, I just have to take it on faith that you were effective in getting things done.



I don't have any magic formula to offer in terms of the types of extracurriculars, but it helps to see that you have passion, leadership, stick-with-it, etc. To be honest, this part of the application is just like the way colleges look at high school students, and medical schools look at college students. You should be well familiar with it by now.
Thanks for the feedback!
 
Yes, you can match. I'm assuming your IM residency is ACGME accredited--if so, the internship year counts (not to mention that you'll be done with the entire residency).

Yes, if you don't match this year, you can apply for advanced programs OR "R" programs next year.

No one will realize that you didn't match this cycle since you are in a residency. It's obvious when a person doesn't match out of medical school since they are typically in a prelim spot when they are applying again. You aren't screwing any chances by only applying to your #1 program this year because of location.

Your stated metrics (Step 1 249, Step 2 254, AOA) are more than sufficient. I'd be surprised if you did not match this year UNLESS you just aren't a good personality match for the program. If you don't match this year, you will definitely match next year by applying more broadly, barring any red flag that hasn't been stated.

Thanks so much for your time.

So I'm in the process of certifying my ROL now. How does the NRMP know (or does the system just not care) that I will have done a "prelim year" already? I guess what I'm asking is that in order to simply match I don't need to somehow prove that I've already finished a year of residency?

For instance, when I go to certify the system keeps bring up pop-up boxes stating "You have at least one Advanced program on your Primary Rank Order List without a Supplemental Rank Order List attached to it. Are you sure you wish to proceed?"

And then I click yes and it brings up another darn popup box stating something similar about how my supplemental ROL has no programs, so it's making me irrationally worry. Is this OK? I don't see what other option I would have as I will obviously not match into a preliminary or transitional year.
 
To be honest, I don't have any experience with the user end of the ROL certification process for the applicant. I think that they set up those popup boxes to make sure that you realize what path you are pursuing.

If you just match at an Advanced program and haven't done a prelim program, you won't be able to join the Advanced program. If you don't scramble into a prelim spot or otherwise prove you've done a prelim spot, the Advanced program will tell the NRMP after July 1st that they still have an open spot since you can't actually fulfill your commitment to their program, and then NRMP releases them from having to give you the spot and allows them to match a "R" person the following year. This same process is invoked if for some reason a person fails their prelim program or otherwise gets kicked out of their prelim program.

The NRMP doesn't know that you have already successfully completed a "prelim" year. They should know that you matched to a prelim year previously if you actually matched to it, but they don't know that you successfully completed it.
 
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