Rocky Vista University (RVU) Acquisition by Saint George University (SGU)

[moogly82]

I'm a first year student at RVU having just started this week. The president of RVU gave an announcement that RVU is being acquired by Medforth, which is the parent company that also owns Saint George University in Grenada. As many of you may know, SGU is the stereotypical Caribbean model for medical schools; ie high attrition low match rate. My fear is that the Caribbean model will be implemented at RVU and the education I receive will be changed for the worse.

Now, my question is should I drop out of the program given this information? According to the student catalog, I have until Monday, July 30th, to withdrawal and receive a full tuition reimbursement.

Also, what do people think of this announcement and its implications for RVU in the future?

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[AnatomyGrey12]

No. They can’t implement the same model at RVU or it would be closed.

In case it wasn’t clear... don’t drop out. That would be dumb.

 

[BlueBleck]

Even though COCA has no teeth, the Department of Education and State Attorney's office can drop big hammers that scare Medforth.

Not that I necessarily doubt it, but is there a cite for this? Recently found out a lot of my assumptions about COCA were unfounded and I'm wondering if people've been privy to resources that I'm not aware of about COCA?

 

[Goro]

Where's the wise @gonnif when you need him??

 

[Wjldenver]

Don't drop out. Like any merger and acquisition, this could either help, or hurt, RVU going forward. But who knows? At least the CEO of Medforth is a very qualified person to lead. (BS, MD Harvard).

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-sussman-52873428/

The key will be what will Medforth do with RVU's free cash flow. ...Continue to invest in the enterprise or harvest it and invest the $'s in other Medforth entities. In my opinion, your bigger worry should be centered around medical school proliferation in general.

 

[moogly82]

I dont have any definitive information on this but lets see if we can speculate.

-SGU business model has less risk as it is paid via loan money from students attending. It is the students who assume risk of this debt.
-It has been reported that SGU generates over $100 million in annual revenue before interest, tax, depreciation and amortization of their facilities
-They were reported looking for sale back in 2012/13 being advised by Credit Suisse Group who arranged a $250 million down, part of which was used as a special dividend to the founders which may be getting their money in preparation to get out. Their valuation at the time was One Billion (yes, Billion with a "B") dollars
-In the summer of 2014, SGU was essentially taken over by an investor group led by Canadian private equity firm Altas Partners and a fund advised by Baring Private Equity Asia in a $750 million transaction, though the largest single shareholder remains the one of founders Charles Modica, who is still Chancellor. These equity funds are privately held, well-off, and appear to want to hold investments for 10+ years, instead of selling off quickly.
- In August 2015, G. Richard Olds, the founder and past dean of UC Riverside Medical school was named SGU president and CEO. Would make send to get the founder of USA medical school as president if SGU wants to start an LCME school in USA.
-Also in 2015, California Northstate University College of Medicine, the first for profit MD school on US soil gains prelim accreditation, breaking a barrier. Probably SGU was following this closely
-In 2016, Louis Modica , a one-time chicken farmer turned very successful real estate developer, and Charles's father, dies. I would assume Charles got his fathers' shares of SGU as well as major other inheritance.
-I would speculate that Modica wants to become a true American LCME school and now seem to have position, power/money, and partners, perhaps even build a bigger education company but how to do it? Get a real top guy
-Dr. Andrew Sussman, named CEO. Harvard educated physician, former CEO of UMass Med Center, former president of MinuteClinic, over 1100 walk in clinics in CVS and Target, and.... well this is a top guy who gets other top guys and women around by
-forming Medforth global healthcare education Group. Unlike Adtalem, formerly DeVry, which owns Ross and AUC, or R3 , which owns St. Matthews, Saba, and MUA, this group is looking to get a foothold on USA soil but how?
-Buy an COCA accredited school that is already approved.
-BTW, Ross tried to start a for profit in Wyoming in the mid 1990s but were unable to come up with the capital needed to get everything required an LCME school and quickly abandoned the idea.

That is my take on this

Interesting, thanks for writing that out. I'll stay in the program considering that RVU still has a good name and if change does come, it won't be for some time.

I'd imagine an acquisition this large doesn't happen overnight, so I take issue with the fact that they withheld this information until after I've committed to RVU both financially and by withdrawing from other acceptances. This news would have definitely factored into my decision to come here.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This news would have definitely factored into my decision to come here.

Why? RVU was already owned by associates of a carribean school...

 

[JamesPotterMS-3]

OP isn't giving the full details.
Basically, the current Chairman is in his 60s, in poor health, and with no suitable heir. Last year, the board of trustees and chairman decided it would be best to deal with this sooner rather than later and searched for a suitable new partner that would help the school with future growth and a sustainable future. Medforth was what was decided upon. Medforth will invest heavily in RVU, especially needed now that RVU's annual budget is growing exponentially. If this didn't happen and if something were to happen to the current owner, RVU would lose all negotiating power and his estate would sell the school to the first bidder, which would probably be Kaplan or the University of Phoenix.

 

[12jas]

RVU which is opened a new branch in St Georges Utah. Coincidence?

new branch is in IVINS Utah it is not in Saint George Utah but close enough.

 

[NeuResurgens]

new branch is in IVINS Utah it is not in Saint George Utah but close enough.

Everything in southwest Utah is basically St. George.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Everything in southwest Utah is basically St. George.

Lol true, basically anything beyond Beaver

 

[NeuResurgens]

Lol true, basically anything beyond Beaver

Exactly. Utah basically has four quadrants: wasatch, ogden, St. George, Moab. Maybe Vernal is a subregion but hardly anyone is out there anyway.

 

[Roxas]

Everything in southwest Utah is basically St. George.

Like Hell it is

 

[NurWollen]

Exactly. Utah basically has four quadrants: wasatch, ogden, St. George, Moab. Maybe Vernal is a subregion but hardly anyone is out there anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ogden part of the Wasatch front? I think maybe the four quadrants would be Wasatch Front, Cache Valley, St. George/Cedar City, and Moab/Vernal etc.

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[NeuResurgens]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ogden part of the Wasatch front? I think maybe the four quadrants would be Wasatch Front, Cache Valley, St. George/Cedar City, and Moab/Vernal etc.

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Might be, I was thinking of Ogden as the southern end of a cache valley type region... your breakdown makes a bit more sense, haha.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ogden part of the Wasatch front? I think maybe the four quadrants would be Wasatch Front, Cache Valley, St. George/Cedar City, and Moab/Vernal etc.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile

That’s how I would break it down

 

[hallowmann]

Why? RVU was already owned by associates of a carribean school...

Exactly what I was thinking. In fact, Tien got out of the AUC game and sold it to DeVry when he started RVU.

 

[2021Doctor]

Yife Tien knows a medical school can be hugely profitable offshore. Now he wants to make a buck training osteopathic doctors in the U.S.
.
Yife Tien bought the 24-acre Colorado property and built Rocky Vista, a 145,000-square-foot building tricked out with bright anatomy labs, patient simulators and fully wired classrooms, with $30 million from his father, Paul Tien, a wealthy 80-year-old Taiwanese immigrant who started the American University of the Caribbean medical school in 1978. Tien's grand plan, revealed in an application with state accreditors, is to have tuition revenue explode from $2.7 million this year to $25 million in 2012 as four classes of students arrive on campus. In 2012 net income is supposed to be $3 million. Still, at a $152,000 list price for a degree in osteopathic medicine (D.O.), which is what Rocky Vista is offering, this could be a tough sell, even though a Yale M.D. costs $169,000 before discounts.
.
The Tiens have shown that education can turn a profit. In the islands the AUC, where students pay some $30,000 a year, has low overhead and margins that are thought to hover around 20%.
An Uncommon Practice

 

[Select All That Apply]

Inserts a pun to the student protests of 1989.

 

[Aslanim]

Still, at a $152,000 list price for a degree in osteopathic medicine (D.O.), which is what Rocky Vista is offering, this could be a tough sell, even though a Yale M.D. costs $169,000 before discounts.
An Uncommon Practice

Ah the good old days when a Yale M.D used to cost $169k. Today it is costs $236,000 "before discounts". (This is only a decade ago by the way.)
Oh and the D.O degree "which is what Rocky Vista is offering" costs $220,000. Apparently however, it is not a tough sell at all.

 

[hallowmann]

Ah the good old days when a Yale M.D used to cost $169k. Today it is costs $236,000 "before discounts". (This is only a decade ago by the way.)
Oh and the D.O degree "which is what Rocky Vista is offering" costs $220,000. Apparently however, it is not a tough sell at all.

Yeah, I had a chuckle at that "tough sell" part. Its a medical school. It opened right around the time of the recession. The idea that students wouldn't be lining up for a seat was stupid, despite the baggage that comes with it being a for-profit school.

 

[2021Doctor]

Any insight from Rocky Vista students on what is going on with Medforth taking over?

 

[libertyyne]

what do you folks think the upper limit of tuition could be for these private for-profit schools? 500k for 4 years? 1 million? What would the average premed be willing to pay ?

 

[BorntobeDO?]

You can expect future class size expansions and a massive drop in rotation quality but attrition can't get messed up in domestic schools.

Even though COCA has no teeth, the Department of Education and State Attorney's office can drop big hammers that scare Medforth.

I don't know why this rumor is spread. As long as attrition doesn't exceed 8% a semester its all good. 20%+ of the class can and will be dropped at most of these new DO schools.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

what do you folks think the upper limit of tuition could be for these private for-profit schools? 500k for 4 years? 1 million? What would the average premed be willing to pay ?

I am guessing 400k-500k for a rural area. Only because by the time they get to that much and 80% of the class is matching community based programs, people will realize its not a great decision.

 

[libertyyne]

I am guessing 400k-500k for a rural area. Only because by the time they get to that much and 80% of the class is matching community based programs, people will realize its not a great decision.

dental schools currently have this problem with large debt burdens. I honestly wouldnt be surprised if people just keep taking out loans as premeds and desperate premeds are not the people that have a real idea of medical school and paying off debt afterwards will entail.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

dental schools currently have this problem with large debt burdens. I honestly wouldnt just keep taking out loans as premeds and desperate premeds are not the people that have a real idea of medical school and paying off debt afterwards will entail.

I just think when the number goes high enough most people smart enough to get into DO school start thinking 'this isn't worth it.' Plus there are a lot more recent DO grads then there used to be, it isn't that hard to look one up.

 

[Aslanim]

I am guessing 400k-500k for a rural area. Only because by the time they get to that much and 80% of the class is matching community based programs, people will realize its not a great decision.

Honestly I think the number is closer to 600k-700k. Just look at CCOM/AZCOM. These 2 schools are still some of the most competitive D.O programs despite that tuition alone (not including living expenses) is already about 300k (for the 4 years).

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Honestly I think the number is closer to 600k-700k. Just look at CCOM/AZCOM. These 2 schools are still some of the most competitive D.O programs despite that tuition alone (not including living expenses) is already about 300k (for the 4 years).

Those schools still match well, and CCOM is in a desirable area. I was referring to the new super rural programs, I would agree that for an old program in a place like Chicago they might be able to go higher.

 

[2021Doctor]

I think the success of CCOM is strongly related to their strong student pool. Their incoming class had a mean MCAT of 507 and GPA 3.67. That is better than some lower tier MD schools like Central Michigan, Morehouse, New Mexico, etc.
Osteopathic Medicine in Downers Grove | Midwestern University
Average GPA and MCAT Score for Every Medical School (Updated in 2018)

 

[DO2015CA]

I think the success of CCOM is strongly related to their strong student pool. Their incoming class had a mean MCAT of 507 and GPA 3.67. That is better than some lower tier MD schools like Central Michigan, Morehouse, New Mexico, etc.
Osteopathic Medicine in Downers Grove | Midwestern University
Average GPA and MCAT Score for Every Medical School (Updated in 2018)

They’ve also been doing this a while so they have figured out what curriculum works. Most new DO schools don’t do curriculum right. This shows because Campbell has the same admissions average as ACOM with drastically better results, ~100 increased COMLEX 1 average. These schools are the same age but obviously Campbell knows how to design a curriculum.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

They’ve also been doing this a while so they have figured out what curriculum works. Most new DO schools don’t do curriculum right. This shows because Campbell has the same admissions average as ACOM with drastically better results, ~100 increased COMLEX 1 average. These schools are the same age but obviously Campbell knows how to design a curriculum.

Yes, but it is the bottom third that is hard to pick. They have lower stats in general. Who will develop and who wont? These picks are very important in determining your board pass rate.

 

[studentdoct4281]

Damn rocky vista that’s low

 

[Ukdavis23]

Former Rocky Vista student here. Although I won't get into all the details, I had a very negative experience with the school and would not recommend anybody to go there. This news of the school being acquired by SGU doesn't really surprise me at all. You have to understand that first and foremost, this is a For-Profit school so their number 1 priority is to make money, and unfortunately the institution prioritizes money and their image over their students' educational experiences.

Don't get me wrong, they have a lot of great resources that can help competitive, high performing students match into competitive residencies. However the curriculum requires you to be a very good independent learner (lecture quality is very poor), so for students on the fence that struggle with academics, RVU is a very poor fit. I had several friends that struggled a lot with academics at RVU, and unfortunately in my opinion the school does not make a concerted effort to assist those students and would prefer to fail said students to maintain their COMLEX scores and pass rates.

OP for your situation, if I was in your position I would see if you could transfer schools rather than trying to withdraw altogether cause it could have ramifications for you getting in elsewhere. I don't think SGU buying the school will have a significant effect on the curriculum that has made RVU very successful, but if anything I think it will make them even more cutthroat with student retention similar to a lot of Caribbean schools

 

[sharpstickie]

It all became official as of a few days ago.
Medforth Group

 

[Instatewaiter]

Hate to say I told you so.

 

[alprazoslam]

It all became official as of a few days ago.
Medforth Group

Lol it says St. George’s is a world leading university.

 

[alprazoslam]

Former Rocky Vista student here. Although I won't get into all the details, I had a very negative experience with the school and would not recommend anybody to go there. This news of the school being acquired by SGU doesn't really surprise me at all. You have to understand that first and foremost, this is a For-Profit school so their number 1 priority is to make money, and unfortunately the institution prioritizes money and their image over their students' educational experiences.

Don't get me wrong, they have a lot of great resources that can help competitive, high performing students match into competitive residencies. However the curriculum requires you to be a very good independent learner (lecture quality is very poor), so for students on the fence that struggle with academics, RVU is a very poor fit. I had several friends that struggled a lot with academics at RVU, and unfortunately in my opinion the school does not make a concerted effort to assist those students and would prefer to fail said students to maintain their COMLEX scores and pass rates.

OP for your situation, if I was in your position I would see if you could transfer schools rather than trying to withdraw altogether cause it could have ramifications for you getting in elsewhere. I don't think SGU buying the school will have a significant effect on the curriculum that has made RVU very successful, but if anything I think it will make them even more cutthroat with student retention similar to a lot of Caribbean schools

Isn’t their success just bc they have one of the stronger entering do classes each year

 

[Ukdavis23]

Isn’t their success just bc they have one of the stronger entering do classes each year

I haven't really kept up with the stats of new classes over the last 2 years, but yes they have significantly increased the floor for acceptance to the University every year. This I think is part of the reason why they have good board scores too, because they draw a lot of naturally good test takers and their curriculum style is great for very good test takers to exercise and improve those skills on boards. That being said from my observation, people that naturally struggle with test taking have a very difficult time at that school. I imagine with these recent changes in this thread, the school will likely continue to raise the bar for acceptance to the school, however I honestly felt that the quality of professors, lectures etc went down during my time there, so I'd expect students to essentially be left to their own devices by the institution to figure out how to be good test takers or likely get weeded out before being eligible for boards

 

[Haxx]

I graduated last year, and I am a TERRIBLE test taker and didn't feel under-prepared by the school or completely abandoned to my own devices. I can't speak to new changes in curriculum/staff, but RVU-CO was an overall really solid med school experience for me.

 

[Athack]

I’m planning on attending RVU-CO this fall. I asked about these speculations during my interview. The interviewers stated that regulations and the school will not allow the exaggerations that are mentioned online/in the forums to happen. I have excessively read through quite a bit of old and new forums about RVU, I think all the speculations are extremely up in the air be it good or bad. The for-profit status does fuel these speculations ALOT. Though a for-profit status is something to be worried about, I also know that if the school even slightly goes down hill people would speculate about it even more, the investors know this and right now it’s a great osteopathic school. Frankly looking at the match list, complex score, dissociation from previous students online and 4 year/5year completion rate this out weighs the for-profit status for me. If any of that changes, I think it would be extremely hard to justify for any student to go to RVU due to the price and status.

What I am mainly worried about is that new ownership can put strain on/scare the staff resulting in many of them leaving changing the environment of the school.

With that being said Im starting to think WesternU-lebanon would be a safe choice even with RVU’s great track record.

 

[doreegon]

Current RVU M4.

We’ve known about this for a while now so I’ve had a lot of time to process it and discuss with classmates. At first we were worried, but then it started to make more sense. RVU has to compete with both CU (it’s > $4000 a rotation for RVU students to rotate with one of their physicians) and KCUMB for rotation spots, which is the limiting factor in our class size and educational quality. We send OMS3 students into different regions and have trouble placing students into specialties because we’re too small to compete with the only other medical school in the state, which is less than 10 miles away. If the school is going to grow then it needs outside help, and while I have no love for the business practices of Carib schools, their capital and capacity to attract talent and resources to the school probably represents the best chance for RVU to compete and expand.

As for educational quality and whether we are all just good test takers; it varies by class. My class is absolutely a group of excellent test takers but that doesn’t mean that we’re one dimensional. RVU does a very good job at preparing students for clinical rotations and gives a very generous dedicated period. Some of my classmates are typical neurotic medical students, others spend more time skiing. They’re all very talented, hard working people who put the work in and enjoyed living in Colorado for a few years.

I had tons of interviews for residency and matched. I have friends that matched in every specialty including derm, ortho, psych, OB. That’s basic the best you can expect from most new DO schools.

 

[Kyle Broflovski]

Current RVU M4.

We’ve known about this for a while now so I’ve had a lot of time to process it and discuss with classmates. At first we were worried, but then it started to make more sense. RVU has to compete with both CU (it’s > $4000 a rotation for RVU students to rotate with one of their physicians) and KCUMB for rotation spots, which is the limiting factor in our class size and educational quality. We send OMS3 students into different regions and have trouble placing students into specialties because we’re too small to compete with the only other medical school in the state, which is less than 10 miles away. If the school is going to grow then it needs outside help, and while I have no love for the business practices of Carib schools, their capital and capacity to attract talent and resources to the school probably represents the best chance for RVU to compete and expand.

As for educational quality and whether we are all just good test takers; it varies by class. My class is absolutely a group of excellent test takers but that doesn’t mean that we’re one dimensional. RVU does a very good job at preparing students for clinical rotations and gives a very generous dedicated period. Some of my classmates are typical neurotic medical students, others spend more time skiing. They’re all very talented, hard working people who put the work in and enjoyed living in Colorado for a few years.

I had tons of interviews for residency and matched. I have friends that matched in every specialty including derm, ortho, psych, OB. That’s basic the best you can expect from most new DO schools.

Does RVU publish their match results? I can’t find any on their website for last year. Do you think their new campus in UT will have a successful match? Or does the CO campus have a leg up on them?

 

[hbslax4]

Does RVU publish their match results? I can’t find any on their website for last year. Do you think their new campus in UT will have a successful match? Or does the CO campus have a leg up on them?

Here is last years match list. Not sure when this years list will be published.

http://www.rvu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Residency_MatchList_2018.pdf

 

[LazyPanda121]

RVU-CO 2019 Match List : http://www.rvu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Residency_MatchList_2019.pdf

 

[JDsfloatingheadDr]

Thought this was an interesting, albeit not surprising rejection letter.

Dear x,
Rocky Vista University (RVU) is committed to helping its candidates realize their dreams of becoming physicians. We recognize that due to our very competitive applicant pool, there are unfortunately many strong candidates who ultimately are not admitted.
While we may not have offered you a seat this year, we hope that you have found your medical school “home” for the next four years. If that is the case, we wish you the very best and you can disregard the rest of this email. If you are still open to new opportunities though, we are happy to share some exciting news with you.
St. George’s University (SGU) School of Medicine, in Grenada West Indies, one of the leading universities committed to outstanding medical and healthcare education, is offering candidates an opportunity to be considered for its MD program via a streamlined application process. Students spend their first two years in Grenada and their second two years of clinical training in the United States.
There are two ways you can express interest and find out more about this opportunity:
1 Click hereto provide SGU with your contact details.
2 Simply “reply” to this email (please include your phone number if you’d like SGU to call you).
In addition, since you have previously considered RVU, SGU willwaive your application fee and provide afast-track review and decision process.
RVU and SGU share a similar mission of providing outstanding health care education and addressing global provider shortages.

Why SGU?
• SGU is the #1 provider of physicians into first-year US residencies, with 950 US residencies in 2019 to date.1
• SGU students taking the USMLE Step 1 for the first time in 2018 achieved a 96% pass rate, on par with the average of all US medical schools.1
• 93% of eligible 2018 US students who applied for residency obtained one.2
• SGU is the 3rd largest source of licensed physicians for the current US workforce.3
• SGU has graduated more than 16,000 physicians.
• Clinical & ambulatory training in 50+ hospitals & health systems in the US.
• 75% of classes are taught in small groups of 8 or less.
With two SGU start dates (August and January), we invite you to find out moreabout this proven pathway to becoming a physician.
Sincerely,
X

 

[Aslanim]

Thought this was an interesting, albeit not surprising rejection letter.

Dear x,
Rocky Vista University (RVU) is committed to helping its candidates realize their dreams of becoming physicians. We recognize that due to our very competitive applicant pool, there are unfortunately many strong candidates who ultimately are not admitted.
While we may not have offered you a seat this year, we hope that you have found your medical school “home” for the next four years. If that is the case, we wish you the very best and you can disregard the rest of this email. If you are still open to new opportunities though, we are happy to share some exciting news with you.
St. George’s University (SGU) School of Medicine, in Grenada West Indies, one of the leading universities committed to outstanding medical and healthcare education, is offering candidates an opportunity to be considered for its MD program via a streamlined application process. Students spend their first two years in Grenada and their second two years of clinical training in the United States.
There are two ways you can express interest and find out more about this opportunity:
1 Click hereto provide SGU with your contact details.
2 Simply “reply” to this email (please include your phone number if you’d like SGU to call you).
In addition, since you have previously considered RVU, SGU willwaive your application fee and provide afast-track review and decision process.
RVU and SGU share a similar mission of providing outstanding health care education and addressing global provider shortages.

Why SGU?
• SGU is the #1 provider of physicians into first-year US residencies, with 950 US residencies in 2019 to date.1
• SGU students taking the USMLE Step 1 for the first time in 2018 achieved a 96% pass rate, on par with the average of all US medical schools.1
• 93% of eligible 2018 US students who applied for residency obtained one.2
• SGU is the 3rd largest source of licensed physicians for the current US workforce.3
• SGU has graduated more than 16,000 physicians.
• Clinical & ambulatory training in 50+ hospitals & health systems in the US.
• 75% of classes are taught in small groups of 8 or less.
With two SGU start dates (August and January), we invite you to find out moreabout this proven pathway to becoming a physician.
Sincerely,
X

Oh wow! I'm so used to "unfortunately due to competition many qualified applicants are not accepted .... please apply to our Master's program in Biomedical Sciences etc..".
This , however is new.

 

[Aslanim]

RVU-CO 2019 Match List : http://www.rvu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Residency_MatchList_2019.pdf

I'm impressed tbh.
2 Derm, 5 Ortho, 1 Neurosurgery, 1 Optho, 1 ENT, and 1 Vascular Surgery.
That's close to 10% of the class matching in super competitive specialties.

 

[Goro]

I'm impressed tbh.
2 Derm, 5 Ortho, 1 Neurosurgery, 1 Optho, 1 ENT, and 1 Vascular Surgery.
That's close to 10% of the class matching in super competitive specialties.

This seems to be on par with a fair number of DO schools this year, including my own.

 

[DO2015CA]

Kinda gross they are selling Carib to DO rejects. I’m curious as to how many people would actually fall for that. I mean I’m sure they are aware of the Carib and still went DO for a reason