Screw AACOMAS!

[Seattle Mariners Fan]

I don't think it changes you positioning all that much - adcoms had to be taking candidates who got it first time around more seriously than grade replaced candidates. cGPA and sGPA medians will decline, probably by a lot - my guess is at least .25 for both cGPA and sGPA.

Long run this is good for DO. Next up: manipulation.

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[roaringunicorn]

In This Thread:
medical students with a lack of empathy

 

[AlteredScale]

Final warning to keep this conversation civil and professional please.


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[BombsAway]

adcoms had to be taking candidates who got it first time around more seriously than grade replaced candidates. cGPA and sGPA medians will decline, probably by a lot - my guess is at least .25 for both cGPA and sGPA.

If they aren't taking as many grade replacement students, why would GPAs decline significantly? My uninformed guess would be that middle of the pack trads gain an ever so slight advantage, and top of pile GPAs may be viewed with renewed favor. GPA averages remain about the same. Unless they actually walk the walk with holistic review, then we could expect your prediction to be true.

 

[mack24]

The famous "participation trophy" reference which you mentioned is talked about mostly with millennials who are either teens or in their early 20s. Most non trads who take advantage of grade replacement are older than their early twenties hence the term NON traditional. I'm not saying they're not 20-40, i'm saying they're not in their early 20s stage so you mentioning them wanting some sort of participation trophy isn't applicable..

MR. kitty,
I believe you are missing the point, I am not trying to say that everyone who is applying has received a physical trophy and has been negatively influenced by it. I am simply stating that I think it is wrong for people to feel like they deserve something that they didn't actually work to get. I don't think those that graduated with a 3.2 should feel like they deserve to have a 3.8 on their AACOMAS application. They deserve to show an upward trend, which is what they actually got. Plus I believe they will even get mad props from adcoms for retaking those lower grade classes and doing better. The "participation trophy" is just an example/result of a mentality that preceded it. Whether an applicant is NON-Traditional or not, I don't believe people should have that mentality... But of course that is just my opinion. In all seriousness I'm glad there are people like you who have more empathy to balance out those like me.

 

[EnigmaticScale]

Go rank some DO schools son! You seem to be good at that!

what can I say though

 

[FutureD.O]

The fact that this is being implemented out of nowhere is absolutely ridiculous. Were there any announcements of this recently? This seems completely unfair to non-traditionally who have been working to repair their gpas. There should have been a grace period before this new rule was implemented. I cannot even begin to imagine how upset I'd be if I spent multiple years gpa repairing to have the rug pulled out from under me like that. Before I get personally attacked, I didn't rely on grade repair as it would've made little difference in my gpa.

I'm honestly just at a loss for words. I've been helping my brother regear for medical school and this is very upsetting.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

If you thought OMM was quackery, why were you planning on applying to DO schools?

Bye Felicia!

 

[tony101]

We all faced trials bruh. But like others have said, some have handled theirs better than others, and I believe they should get credit for that. And who are you to talk about thinking of themselves? Aren't you the one concerned about how you will compare to those who did better than you? You want yourself to look as good as someone who didn't get a bad grade? Sounds like you are pretty concerned about yourself. I'm just saying I think it is fair to be judged on your actions throughout your whole undergrad. If you made mistakes, well what is the saying about lemons and lemonade?

As I said on this thread and others, I have not used grade replacement. My cGPA is currently a 3.5 gpa and it will stay that with with or without grade replacements. Them removing grade replacements would actually benefit me, not hurt me in any way. However I don't just think of myself on these topics, I think about how this can hurt many different types of people. Not to mention, people who were blind sided by this, who were building up classes for next cycle.

 

[tony101]

The fact that this is being implemented out of nowhere is absolutely ridiculous. Were there any announcements of this recently? This seems completely unfair to non-traditionally who have been working to repair their gpas. There should have been a grace period before this new rule was implemented. I cannot even begin to imagine how upset I'd be if I spent multiple years gpa repairing to have the rug pulled out from under me like that. Before I get personally attacked, I didn't rely on grade repair as it would've made little difference in my gpa.

I'm honestly just at a loss for words. I've been helping my brother regear for medical school and this is very upsetting.

This is essentially what I am saying, I haven't had any classes replaced at all. But I can't imagine how pissed/worried I would feel if I did have classes that were replaced, not to mention if it made a massive impact on my gpa.

 

[Seattle Mariners Fan]

If they aren't taking as many grade replacement students, why would GPAs decline significantly? My uninformed guess would be that middle of the pack trads gain an ever so slight advantage, and top of pile GPAs may be viewed with renewed favor. GPA averages remain about the same. Unless they actually walk the walk with holistic review, then we could expect your prediction to be true.

It would lower the average admitted GPA because it would change the way they calculate it; they are not suddenly going to find 5k kids with unrepaired 3.65 GPAs that want to do DO. It may raise average applied GPA but I doubt it.

I haven't seen stats on how many of their applicants use grade replacement. My guess is a lot do.

I don't think it has a huge impact on ordinal ranking of candidates. You take the 3.7 over the repaired 3.7/3.3 actual over the actual 2.9....it'd be absurd to view the repaired grades the same as if they were first pass.

 

[Seattle Mariners Fan]

If you thought OMM was quackery, why were you planning on applying to DO schools?

Bye Felicia!

Consider this:

An institution can have a flaw but still be worthwhile

 

[BombsAway]

It would lower the average admitted GPA because it would change the way they calculate it; they are not suddenly going to find 5k kids with unrepaired 3.65 GPAs that want to do DO. It may raise average applied GPA but I doubt it.

Fair enough. I was basing my idea on there being a surplus of applicants at all gpa levels, like with MD. Thinking table 23 or whatever, where applicants with a 3.8+ had 58% acceptance rates. So there's 10k kids who need a place to go? Or are most kids that apply MD not applying DO?

 

[779663]

OP, maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but from what I've gathered it seems that you are clearly in favour of keeping grade replacement indefinitely as an AACOMAS policy.

However later in the first post you go on this weird rant about being better than your classmates and not wanting to be with people in the middle of your class because you are scoring so well in your repeated courses. You say you don't wish to attend LUCOM in a way that makes it seem like you work hard and are therefore better than the students who go there and the school itself.

This is hilarious to me because by this logic, students who did well in all their courses the first time around and scored highly without the need for grade replacement could make the same argument about you and say that now they do not wish to attend school with you, because they are the superior ones. Continuing that thought, if we want to remove students who are deemed inferior to others as you say elsewhere in this thread, we could accomplish that by just removing graded forgiveness.

Your attitude of being better than others based on accomplishments you have yet to achieve is strange to say the least and down right repulsive in my opinion. I don't know why you would name drop LUCOM like that in such a negative light. Sure it may not be the greatest institution but it grants it's students the degree of DO at the end of the day, a degree that is currently unattainable by you and so you really are not in a position to ridicule the school. I've no doubt that if LUCOM offered you a seat in their upcoming class you'd be chomping at the bit and accept immediately.

One should never feel themselves to be better than any opportunity that gets you where you want to go. Your tone is really unbecoming of a future doctor. If you ever get that far I really hope your attitude has changed by then.

 

[psu228]

Fair enough. I was basing my idea on there being a surplus of applicants at all gpa levels, like with MD. Thinking table 23 or whatever, where applicants with a 3.8+ had 58% acceptance rates. So there's 10k kids who need a place to go? Or are most kids that apply MD not applying DO?

In my personal experience with med school friends and from reading sdn, I assume that most people with this high of a GPA only apply to allopathic programs, at least the first cycle they go through.

I could see the old DO schools like pcom not having to take much of a jump here, but the new schools absolutely will and many mid tier ones will I suspect too.

 

[Marrowist]

This thread is a real dandy. I want to thank @Alt... I mean @EnigmaticScale for the meme input. Good work there.

 

[radian313]

First off, please calm down. I understand your frustration, it is valid. But sadly it will not change anything. It is us that needs to adjust to the new policy change. Can we voice our opinions? Yes, will it change anything? Probably not.

There has been a long discussion between MD and DO houses of how to implement a single accredidation system. Remember it has always been the Osteopathic profession to adjust into Allopathy and part of the process is to improve the candidacy of the applicant pool. This seems to be one way. Is it the right? Not sure, thats a matter of opinion. But time after time, a few students who get into DO school end up failing out because somehow students think "getting in was the hard part, staying in is easier". Not true, hence they slack off, life happens, etc etc. To ensure a better pool of applicants, this is likely a response to all that. Again I am not saying its right or wrong, take it for what it is, and adjust. Many students come into my class with stellar GPAs (I am talking >3.5 gpa) and fail out, whereas folks like me with average GPAs or lower are in the top 30% of the class. I am sure you are more that capable of excelling at medical school, and its only a matter of time before you get your shot.

That said, expect more changes, heck I am sure many residencies will expect higher quality applicants in the form of raising their board score averages. Call it what you want, the closer we get to 2020 (the year the transition is to happen), the more changes youll see for medical students and pre-meds. Name of the game is patience, acceptance, and fasten your seatbelts.

 

[EnigmaticScale]

This thread is a real dandy. I want to thank @Alt... I mean @EnigmaticScale for the meme input. Good work there.

Thank you, wonder where @AnatomyGrey12 has been in this thread.

 

[Shotapp]

@EnigmaticScale

I had a good chuckle at those memes lol.

 

[JDtoMD16]

@WhereMyLiberalsAt
I am essentially in your exact shoes. I graduated with a 2.1 GPA 5 years ago. Countless retakes under my belt. Have since had several semesters of 18-21 credits at 3.7+ Even had to retake chemistry II 2 times.

I gracefully destroyed the students in all my classes, no humble pie. I did it all this knowing damn well that I was fighting for a chance to plead my case to some dinky school located deep within the rural bible belt.

But unlike you I don't see a reasonable path to victory here...I am in the highest tier of applicant to use the grade forgiveness policy and will be losing north of $.50 cent on my GPAs. I am this close to throwing in the towel. The analogy of a rug being pulled from underneath me is not strong enough.

All would be a completely different story if in fact I was NOT following the exact advice of premed advisors and SDN for the past few years.

 

[Spectreman]

"Collaboration, not competition" is the mantra of Dr Ryan Grey. So important to keep in mind. If you're not familiar with his podcast The Pre-Med Years, I HIGHLY recommend it to anyone reading this post.




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[redsox93]

what can I say though

wait... these post seem so familiar... magi noodles?

 

[Spectreman]

@WhereMyLiberalsAt
I am essentially in your exact shoes. I graduated with a 2.1 GPA 5 years ago. Countless retakes under my belt. Have since had several semesters of 18-21 credits at 3.7+ Even had to retake chemistry II 2 times.

I gracefully destroyed the students in all my classes, no humble pie. I did it all this knowing damn well that I was fighting for a chance to plead my case to some dinky school located deep within the rural bible belt.

But unlike you I don't see a reasonable path to victory here...I am in the highest tier of applicant to use the grade forgiveness policy and will be losing north of $.50 cent on my GPAs. I am this close to throwing in the towel. The analogy of a rug being pulled from underneath me is not strong enough.

All would be a completely different story if in fact I was NOT following the exact advice of premed advisors and SDN for the past few years.

JDtoMD16, you should really consider an SMP at a DO school. You'd be a great fit and if you performed well would probably get an acceptance. Have you taken your MCAT yet?


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[EnigmaticScale]

wait... these post seem so familiar... magi noodles?

told you im not spacehamsterboo

 

[redsox93]

told you im not spacehamsterboo

so is this a yes haha

 

[Spectreman]

I'm looking into SMP programs at the moment. There are plenty to chose from, and it is a good pathway to MD programs (and obviously DO programs for backups.) They are silly expensive though, but for me I have a lot in savings (I feel bad for people going into debt for this stuff.) I really like the SMP programs that are along side medical students. Could just be me but they really show schools you can handle med school.

That's what they're for, plus you usually get some research experience and a masters out of it. In the one I'm at, if you get an A in the med school classes (Med Anatomy, Med Neuro, and Histo) you don't have to retake them when/if you stay on at the med school, which makes for a WAY less stressful first year and opens up time for research and student leadership.


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[JDtoMD16]

I'm looking into SMP programs at the moment. There are plenty to chose from, and it is a good pathway to MD programs (and obviously DO programs for backups.) They are silly expensive though, but for me I have a lot in savings (I feel bad for people going into debt for this stuff.) I really like the SMP programs that are along side medical students. Could just be me but they really show schools you can handle med school.

The only option now is a very expensive SMP. I already have accrued exactly $48,000 in debt (of which well over half is from from GPA repair). I have looked into these SMP's before and the COA of $60-80k and lack of guarantee is what deterred me in the past. I also would not be admitted to a top tier SMP with my GPA. I am seriously looking to AA programs...and maybe a European drinking / backpacking bender to clear my head.

 

[tux4]

Grade replacement is the only reason I got into schools. Awesome app but krap GPA. It is ridiculous cause I knew people with BS majors getting 4.0's but like 5 points less on MCAT and getting a choice of MD schools. It is the best policy the krap DO world has.


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[psu228]

That's what they're for, plus you usually get some research experience and a masters out of it. In the one I'm at, if you get an A in the med school classes (Med Anatomy, Med Neuro, and Histo) you don't have to retake them when/if you stay on at the med school, which makes for a WAY less stressful first year and opens up time for research and student leadership.


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Would you mind saying what program you're in? That sounds awesome.

 

[EnigmaticScale]

so is this a yes haha

that i'm maggi?

 

[779663]

wait... these post seem so familiar... magi noodles?

Wouldn't surprise me. Both are pretty annoying tbh

 

[dwgrubbs1s]

After finding out the news last night that AACOMAS will be changing their grading policy, I literally broke down in tears. During the 2012/2013 academic year I went through a divorce that was devastating to me! I was taking Bio and Gen Chem, and failed these classes two semesters in a row. I put a hold on school, and life went on. I got remarried to an amazing women who fully supported me on quieting my high paying job, and pursue my career in medicine. I obtained A's in all of my retakes, and continued to excel in upper-division classes. It wasn't a upward trend it was a completely new life! I have also obtained amazing EC's (easily have volunteered 1000+ hours in the last two years. my wife, and I live for volunteering.) I worked at redoing my grades hoping an MD school would look kindly on my reinvention. Then I found out about grade replacement. I LOVED the idea of reinvention with DO schools. It was symbolic of my life! I found it representative on how life has treated me, and I was honored to be given a chance to prove myself.....

I was crying like a little baby last night when I told my wife that I had let her down. I had felt like all of the hard work SHE put into me was a waste! When she hugged me, and told me she was proud of me, will be a moment I will never forget! After an hour of just sitting there holding each other I was at complete ease! No way in HELL was some stupid organization going to dictate my future. I had Competed against the brightest kids in my school! Scoring in the 90th percentile on the orgo ACS finals.... Publishing a paper within 4 months of research. I have not pushed myself this far, and sacrificed this much to beg LUCOM to take me!!!

I have obtained UW's in all my failed classes, and will petition them to be changed to official W's.... This will raise my my sGPA to 3.2 as it stands. I will continue to kill my science classes (like I always have,) and finish my senior year at a 3.5 sGPA. I will then apply to SMP programs linked to MD programs. I am not completely immature in my writing off of DO programs. I will apply this spring, and see how the established schools approach the policy, but I am not going to beg to be amongst students that were in the middle of my class.

To the IDIOTS that think this policy change is the "move in the right direction"....... Really the one thing that the DO "boss man" could change to increase the communities image of DO schools, and he picked grade replacement!!! F'ing grade replacement!!!!!! NOT RESEARCH, NOT CLINICAL EDUCATION, NOT OMM QUACKERY!!!!! BUT F'ING GRADE REPLACEMENT!!!! slow clap to that ****!

My life has always been the long way round... So why should medicine be any different! Like M. Scott Peck said "One measure - and perhaps the best measure - of a person's greatness in the capacity for suffering."

I can't believe how lucky I am to find out this information the week before my MCAT prep. I have always excelled when my back was against the wall, or when I had to prove myself. A DO bar of 505 did not push me to my true capabilities. During Christmas break I did a diagnostic test and scored 508 without practice... I was about to spend the next four months pissing my potential away! Now I can push myself to the extreme! If anything I'm blessed for this challenge of personal growth!

It is great that you have turned your life around and are doing better in your classes now. I am happy to hear that you have your sights on medicine and wish you well. Despite all of that, the reality of your past mistakes will now show up. No matter how fair you think it may or may not be, medical schools do not owe you a spot within their program. While you may think that you do not belong amongst the student who were in the middle of the class, the reality is your failed classes will still show up. Obviously it is not the end of the world and you still have a chance in medicine. However, having a hostile attitude towards osteopathic admissions will not solve anything. (Especially with a rocky past). No you are not immature in dismissing D.O. schools, but may come up short handed at the end of the day as M.D. programs may not be as forgiving of a rocky transcript.

 

[redsox93]

that i'm maggi?

Yes

 

[779663]

Ya I've calmed down quite a bit sense I wrote that... I will aim for an respectable SMP program, and aim for a MD. I'm not against DO, but I am against their lacking clinical education. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
When I wrote the original post I was just floored by the short warning, and still find it tasteless. I wasn't being entitled, but I was making life decisions in "good faith." I'm still excited for medicine, and I look forward to proving myself in a SMP program.

DO schools lack clinical education? Wut? Making good clinicians is like the number one aim of DO schools. Patient care is literally priority number one

 

[Spectreman]

Would you mind saying what program you're in? That sounds awesome.

It's a DO program. LMU-DCOM in rural TN. It's not fancy, but it's a good option for people like me coming back from academic suspension and years of genuine struggle. I actually really like it here. If you're willing to go AOA for residency they have really competitive placements into stuff like ortho, neuro, and plastics.

It's rural though, like... WAY rural.


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[roaringunicorn]

It's a DO program. LMU-DCOM in rural TN. It's not fancy, but it's a good option for people like me coming back from academic suspension and years of genuine struggle. I actually really like it here. If you're willing to go AOA for residency they have really competitive placements into stuff like ortho, neuro, and plastics.

It's rural though, like... WAY rural.


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How rural, like westerchester county NY rural? or Daniels county Montana rural? I need at least Missouri Ozarks rural.

 

[Spectreman]

How rural, like westerchester county NY rural? or Daniels county Montana rural? I need at least Missouri Ozarks rural.

Well there's a Walmart! And TONS of hiking trails.


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