(Southern) California Rank

[halodoctor]

How would you rank the Southern California programs??? and a brief why?

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[halodoctor]

How would you rank the Southern California programs??? and a brief why?

Great question Halodoctor! I would go with the following:

1) CS - staff, hospital, attendings, fellowship opportunities all great; more laid back

2) Olive View - great teaching, residents seem very friendly, smaller community seems more tight-knit, questionable fellowship opportunities (at least for the difficult ones)

3) Harbor UCLA - fellowship powerhouse, small tight-knit community of hard-workers, long hours

4) Loma Linda - supportive community, nice attendings, diverse experiences at different hospitals, good fellowship opportunities within

5) Kaiser - comprehensive teaching program, tertiary care center with diverse population that includes some county patients, great program director, decent fellowship opportunities, tight-knit community

6) UCI - residents seem to get along very well, laid back, decent teaching and fellowships within

7-9) USC, Huntington St. Mary's

 

[sharsky]

i am in the same boat and i'm having a hard time ranking all those programs. where would you throw ucla, ucsd, scripps mercy and scripps green into the mix? i did not interview at olive view and loma linda. i'm not sure if i'm going to stay in academics...it is a career possibility but i haven't figured it out exactly.
i might rank kaiser over harbor-ucla just because of lesser scut and a more diverse patient population as opposed to just seeing all county patients.

 

[DJ LACTULOSE]

where would you throw ucla, ucsd, scripps mercy and scripps green into the mix?

1. ucla
2. ucsd
3. cedars
4. scripps green
5. olive view
6. scripps mercy
7. harbor
8. uc irvine
9. loma linda
10. kaiser
11. huntington
12. usc

 

[halodoctor]

1. ucla
2. ucsd
3. cedars
4. scripps green
5. olive view
6. scripps mercy
7. harbor
8. uc irvine
9. loma linda
10. kaiser
11. huntington
12. usc

so why did you put cedars before scripss/olive view/mercy/harbor?

 

[DJ LACTULOSE]

• cedars is considered an academic program even tho it's really a community program. and it has better fellowship matching than the places i ranked below it (as far as i know).
• i ranked the scripps and olive view programs above harbor b/c they have comparable training but are said to be have better hours/less scut.
• irvine is a solid program but just doesn't have very good fellowship matching.
• loma linda is in the middle of nowhere and is mostly FMGs from what i've heard.
• usc has been rebuilding for 10 years.
• huntington is a true community program with the lack of fellowships that comes with that.
• kaiser is part of the kaiser system which means you'll only get a fellowship at kaiser.

i think cedars, olive view, harbor, scripps green, and scripps mercy are all comparable in terms of training. cedars is more of a cush program with a lot of time to read. if that's how you learn, it's the program for you. if you're someone who learns more by doing, the other programs might be a better choice. i'm pretty sure cedars has the best fellowship matching of the group, though.

 

[johnnywalker]

..

 

[halodoctor]

• cedars is considered an academic program even tho it's really a community program. and it has better fellowship matching than the places i ranked below it (as far as i know).
• i ranked the scripps and olive view programs above harbor b/c they have comparable training but are said to be have better hours/less scut.
• irvine is a solid program but just doesn't have very good fellowship matching.
• loma linda is in the middle of nowhere and is mostly FMGs from what i've heard.
• usc has been rebuilding for 10 years.
• huntington is a true community program with the lack of fellowships that comes with that.
• kaiser is part of the kaiser system which means you'll only get a fellowship at kaiser.

i think cedars, olive view, harbor, scripps green, and scripps mercy are all comparable in terms of training. cedars is more of a cush program with a lot of time read. if that's how you learn, it's the program for you. if you're someone who learns more by doing, the other programs might be a better choice. i'm pretty sure cedars has the best fellowship matching of the group, though.

Nice summary dude, that was awesome

 

[GIJOES]

outside of san diego's awesome locale, i was surprised to see UCSD so high....

what are the finer points of UCSD? anyone...

I completely agree with DJ Lactulose rank list EXACTLY...by the way, if you are going into GI, good luck, if you have matched, congrats (I am applying for GI fellowship now as an R2).

But depends what you want. If you want cards/GI fellowship, use his list, because both UCLA and UCSD are probably top 25 IM programs in the nation, so will have a HUGE advantage for fellowships nationally and even in So.CA.
Just think about it...fellowship PD's in CA will take some within the program, but most outside matches come from Stanford, UCSF, UCLA, UCSD (probably in that order). So if you want these 2 competitive fellowships, why not increase your chances by going to a top program and working hard for the 1st year, then as R2,3 will have more electives and less call, but more chance of matching into cards/GI.

To answer your question...I received interviews at you mentioned above in DJ Lactulose rank list EXCEPT UCSD, so it must be a "selective" place. Of note, I interviewed at Harvard, Hopkins, Michigan and Columbia, but for some reason, got rejected from UCSD...so that should be reason enough for its finer points.😀

 

[orientedtoself]

• ucla- a top program, i didn't get an interview there
• ucsd- great regional/ national rep, great location
• harbor-ucla- i really liked this program when i interviewed there. great camaraderie, great teaching at morning report the day i was there. good local fellowship placement.
• cedars- west la va- i got the sense this program was not as intense as most university programs
• uc irvine
• olive view
• loma linda
• kaiser
• usc

 

[spumoni620]

Ranking is obviously going to depend on what you are looking for in a program and your career goals. Fellowship/prestige? Work-life balance/"cushiness" factor? Location? Lots of clinical volume in a county setting vs academic powerhouse? Size of program? And then the most important, which is obviously the "gut feeling"/meshing with residents.

Thus, you will probably get a range of different opinons based on what people are going into. If you wanted to be a private practice, community physician, you could rank Huntington or Santa Barbara Cottage hospital as a #1 and be happy. Some might say rank a program like UCSD ahead of Scripps for the name and fellowship factor, but when I visited the latter program I was blown away by how happy and awesome the residents were. Name brand recognition is important if you are set on cardiology or GI but if the program has home fellowships with a record of taking their own, this may be less important (i.e. Kaiser system, UC Irvine). A friend of mine wants to go into Allergy/Immunology, and is considering ranking a program like Scripps ahead of a top-tier, highly name-brand program because Scripps has its own allergy fellowship - this offers exposure and an "in" into a competitive field.

If you are ranking solely based on prestige, I think the general opinion is that UCLA is #1, followed by UCSD, Harbor/Cedars/Olive View (I would place these on the same "name recognition"/prestige level), Scripps/UCI, Kaiser, Huntington/USC/Santa Barbara Cottage. I don't know about Loma Linda.

• cedars is considered an academic program even tho it's really a community program. and it has better fellowship matching than the places i ranked below it (as far as i know).
• i ranked the scripps and olive view programs above harbor b/c they have comparable training but are said to be have better hours/less scut.
• irvine is a solid program but just doesn't have very good fellowship matching.
• loma linda is in the middle of nowhere and is mostly FMGs from what i've heard.
• usc has been rebuilding for 10 years.
• huntington is a true community program with the lack of fellowships that comes with that.
• kaiser is part of the kaiser system which means you'll only get a fellowship at kaiser.

i think cedars, olive view, harbor, scripps green, and scripps mercy are all comparable in terms of training. cedars is more of a cush program with a lot of time to read. if that's how you learn, it's the program for you. if you're someone who learns more by doing, the other programs might be a better choice. i'm pretty sure cedars has the best fellowship matching of the group, though.

 

[Trekkie963]

My personal rank list would be:

1. Olive-View (great teaching, hands-on learning, County patients, well-run hospital)
2. UCI (diverse training sites, extremely flexible curriculum, great PD, happy residents)
3. Scripps Mercy (County-type patients in a private hospital setting)
4. UCSD (strong reputation, County patients, opportunities for research, over-emphasis on basic sciences, bad "feel")
5. Harbor-UCLA (smaller version of USC with a better reputation, but residents work very hard)
6. Huntington (very cush program, surprisingly good fellowship match, happy place to work)
7. Scripps Green (cush, no uninsured patients, opportunities for research)
8. USC (great patient population, poor ancillary staff, residents work very hard, not very much teaching)
9. Loma Linda (diverse training sites, little or no national reputation, vegetarian University Hospital)
10. White Memorial (my interviewer said "you'd probably be better off going to USC, but I understand that not everyone can get in there," hence I rank it lower than USC)

As for the remainder of the SoCal programs, I either did not apply, did not receive interviews, or have not yet interviewed, so I don't feel qualified to rank those. Personally, I am interested in pursuing a non-competitive fellowship and working in academic medicine. Obviously, this list is not based on prestige, but my own personal opinions about the fit of these programs with my own interests, career goals, and personality.

 

[Doctorkill]

Here is how I am ranking the SoCal programs for the match.

1. UCLA -- Prestigious program, outstanding hospital, best fellowship match opportunities in SoCal, one of the largest transplant centers in the world (I have an interest in Heart Failure Transplant), opportunity to function as hospitalist at Santa Monica Hosp during second and third year.

2. UCSD -- San Diego is frickin sweet. Hillcrest is the nicest county hospital I have ever seen, VA is quartenary care center for VA system. Plenty of research opportunities and funding, great fellowship placements, San Diego is frickin sweet.

3. Cedars -- Great fellowship opportunities, great hospital with awesome ancillary services, dedicated teaching service with plenty of autonomy, low stress and low work hours (why bust your hump if not at a major academic medical center??)

4. USC -- Place is a zoo, but the pathology is amazing. Real opportunity to practice Spanish, new hospital is great. Interviewed here mostly for personal reasons though and probably would have kept other interviews in lieu of USC if no ties.

My list of all SoCal programs that I am familiar with

1. UCLA
2. UCSD
3. UCLA Harbor - great reputation, good fellowship opportunities, great patient mix, looooong hours.
4. Cedars
5. Scripps-Green - great reputation for first rate research, small program and hospital so get the personal treatment, good fellowship placement.
6. Olive View: good program, good patient mix, descent fellowship placement, not well known outside SoCal.
7. USC
8. Irvine great new hospital, low stress/work hours, less than great fellowship placement and UCI health system still a little stigmatized by their numerous scandals in the 80's and early 90's.
8. Scripps Mercy: good program, but my experience with the Mercy system is that teaching is secondary to billing, but do not know if that applys to the Scripps Mercy program.

 

[redzz]

My personal rank list would be:

2. UCI (diverse training sites, extremely flexible curriculum, great PD, happy residents)


hahahah...."diverse training sites" (read: drive all over southern ca, orange county while swigging antacids because of some of the worst traffic in the US!)

I guess if you're sure that you don't want a fellowship then UCI would be OK. The hospital is extremely disorganized though and even if the residents seem happy, the hospital staff and many of the attendings (for the most part) are NOT.

 

[DJ LACTULOSE]

lol... i guess i wasn't the only one who thought the multiple small buildings setup at UCI was weird. did you have your interview in the trailer too?

i think a resident said they actually transport patients to different parts of the hospital by rolling them around outside.

at least the weather is usually nice in orange.

 

[drdorian]

edit

sorry, just realized this is Southern California (not northern California) forum

 

[halodoctor]

DJ Lactulose, I love your profile picture, that is awesome!

I think there is a really good discussion going on and it helps 4th years like myself figure out what we truly want. I still have trouble deciding if it's the education that matters, if it's the fellowship placement, if it's the antacid-popping-while-vodka-swigging, or a number of other factors that should be looked at to influence the final list. That is where I came up with the next question...

Which SoCal programs make you the most competent internist? It would help to have a list in descending order. I came up with this question because some of the programs I have interviewed at did not seem to have strong/confident leadership at the top (aka r3s and chiefs). Now, it could be that I'm a pompus, arrogant, snooty little med student, OR it could be that I'm onto something... Any thoughts?

 

[halodoctor]

no takers on this one???

 

[internal plan]

My personal rank list would be:

2. UCI (diverse training sites, extremely flexible curriculum, great PD, happy residents)


hahahah...."diverse training sites" (read: drive all over southern ca, orange county while swigging antacids because of some of the worst traffic in the US!)

I guess if you're sure that you don't want a fellowship then UCI would be OK. The hospital is extremely disorganized though and even if the residents seem happy, the hospital staff and many of the attendings (for the most part) are NOT.

I guess I don't entirely understand why UCI isn't more desired.

The hours are really appealing (no night call on wards).

It's a major academic medical center.

It's in a beautiful locale.

The PD and other attendings that I met there seemed happy. Why do you say that the hospital staff and many of the attendings are not happy?

In terms of fellowships they take a lot of their own. I guess cards and GI outside of UCI doesn't look too hot, but other fellowship matches look pretty consistent with other southern cali programs.

Anyone want to shed some light on this for me?

 

[Trekkie963]

The way your quotation got formatted could be misleading, so I just want to clarify that I did not say those last lines about people being unhappy. I liked UCI a lot.

The only thing that makes me hesitate about UCI is that like 2/3 of UCI fellows are UCI graduates and the residency program does have trouble placing people into fellowships outside of UCI (by their own admission). But yeah, everyone came across as very happy, including former schoolmates of mine.

 

[internal plan]

• cedars is considered an academic program even tho it's really a community program. and it has better fellowship matching than the places i ranked below it (as far as i know).
• i ranked the scripps and olive view programs above harbor b/c they have comparable training but are said to be have better hours/less scut.
• irvine is a solid program but just doesn't have very good fellowship matching.
• loma linda is in the middle of nowhere and is mostly FMGs from what i've heard.
• usc has been rebuilding for 10 years.
• huntington is a true community program with the lack of fellowships that comes with that.
• kaiser is part of the kaiser system which means you'll only get a fellowship at kaiser.

i think cedars, olive view, harbor, scripps green, and scripps mercy are all comparable in terms of training. cedars is more of a cush program with a lot of time to read. if that's how you learn, it's the program for you. if you're someone who learns more by doing, the other programs might be a better choice. i'm pretty sure cedars has the best fellowship matching of the group, though.

good analysis. in terms of olive view vs. harbor, here are my thoughts: olive view has 6-7 mo.s of call, where as harbor has 7 mo.s of call and then inpatient neuro which apparently has some home call. so it doesn't seem that much different. also, wards at ov are q4 and wards at harbor are q5; ICU at ov are q3 and ICU at harbor are q4. I do think that harbor is more of a stand-alone academic center than olive view (pretty much every residency and fellowship program exist in the hospital, interventional cardiology bc of cv surgery, etc.) and I would say harbor has better matching into outside fellowships.

 

[Trekkie963]

wards at ov are q4 and wards at harbor are q5

This is true, but I want to throw in a caution not to read it to mean that the schedule at Harbor is in any way more laidback than at Olive View. Long call on the wards at harbor is q5, but the call cycle also includes 2 short-call days (pre-call, call, post-call, short, short). You end up admitting patients during a good chunk of your time on the wards.

 

[internal plan]

This is true, but I want to throw in a caution not to read it to mean that the schedule at Harbor is in any way more laidback than at Olive View. Long call on the wards at harbor is q5, but the call cycle also includes 2 short-call days (pre-call, call, post-call, short, short). You end up admitting patients during a good chunk of your time on the wards.

this is true. do ov residents admit in between call days?

 

[Trekkie963]

this is true. do ov residents admit in between call days?

no, they do not.

 

[internal plan]

no, they do not.

doesn't q3 for ICU seem kinda harsh though? any thoughts on cedars, trekkie?

 

[Trekkie963]

doesn't q3 for ICU seem kinda harsh though? any thoughts on cedars, trekkie?

Q3 for ICU is rough, I am sure, but Olive View is not the only program I applied to with this setup. Sure, it would probably be nicer to be q4 (or q10), but I figure I can endure that hectic schedule for the 1 or 2 months.

I'm afraid I do not know too much about Cedars, since I did not interview there. My understanding, though, is that the time spent at Cedars is pretty cush while the time spent at the VA is a little more rigorous (along the lines of other VA programs). I also believe they have a relatively strong fellowship match for a community program. I don't know any specifics.

 

[DJ LACTULOSE]

doesn't q3 for ICU seem kinda harsh though? any thoughts on cedars, trekkie?

i have a friend who's an intern at cedars this year. the q3 call isn't that bad because they go home at around 1 pm on non-call days.