Starting Over

[taken2]

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You have a valid point and I did not think about this until now. However, the grade he gave me was "I do not recommend a grade" and it is the school's experiential committee that assigned a failing grade. Even if I sue the preceptor now, he cannot go back and change the school's mind.

Is there anywhere in your experiential manual it states that the committe can assign a grade if the preceptor fails to do so ?

 

[startingover11]

Is there anywhere in your experiential manual it states that the committee can assign a grade if the preceptor fails to do so ?

It doesn't say that but it says negative reviews are viewed by the experiential committee and they decide what to do next.

 

[startingover11]

Man after contacting dozens of lawyers, none of them is able to help. Now I am thinking about government agencies such as American disabilities association and such... Does anyone else know any organizations that help students with learning disabilities?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Man after contacting dozens of lawyers, none of them is able to help. Now I am thinking about government agencies such as American disabilities association and such... Does anyone else know any organizations that help students with learning disabilities?

Why can't they help? What are they telling you?

 

[PegIntron]

if you are telling them you dont have much money then they are not going to help. Ask for their typical fee and go from there.

 

[startingover11]

Why can't they help? What are they telling you?

They are telling me that it is not their field of specialty.

 

[startingover11]

if you are telling them you don't have much money then they are not going to help. Ask for their typical fee and go from there.

Money isn't even the case. I am fighting against a state school that have a good reputation in my area. I don't think any lawyer will even take my case. As soon as I mention my story, they just say they do not take cases in that field..

So I found two lawyers who is willing to hear my case. One charges 100 dollars and the other charges 275. Both of those prices are for initial consultations only. I have absolutely no money so I will see if I can borrow some money from friends or something.

 

[startingover11]

The associate dean is willing to help me out. He tried to tell then committee to give me a chance but the committee is firm on having me dismissed.

My question is, would it help if I go to the dean of the school? What if I go to the school's chancellor or the president or something? It is not in the school's policy to go beyond the committee so I don't know if they would even care to hear me out. I spoke to the ombuds office and the ombuds office said they probably would refer me back to that committee.

 

[owlegrad]

The associate dean is willing to help me out. He tried to tell then committee to give me a chance but the committee is firm on having me dismissed.

My question is, would it help if I go to the dean of the school? What if I go to the school's chancellor or the president or something? It is not in the school's policy to go beyond the committee so I don't know if they would even care to hear me out. I spoke to the ombuds office and the ombuds office said they probably would refer me back to that committee.

Of course go to the dean. Then to the vise president. And then to the president. The worst they can say is no, and you haven't lost anything at all in that case.

I feel for you. I do. You need to do everything you can - the dean, president, anyone!

I dont know what an ombuds is.

 

[startingover11]

Of course go to the dean. Then to the vise president. And then to the president. The worst they can say is no, and you haven't lost anything at all in that case.

I feel for you. I do. You need to do everything you can - the dean, president, anyone!

I don't know what an ombuds is.

Yea, everyone I have talked to is very empathic about my situation. And of course, I will go as far as I could. I am even thinking about talking to the department of education. I don't know if there is anything they can do. I will also talk to the American Disabilities Association. Hopefully they can direct me some where.

The ombuds office is sort of like a mediator between the school and the student. I didn't know what their role was either, until recently.

 

[Cloud 9]

I would just start crying....make a scene...and/or get the local media involved. A lot of times they can sway an unfair case. How many ridiculous phone bills have you seen dropped once someone brings it to the media? No one wants bad publicity.

 

[startingover11]

Of course go to the dean. Then to the vise president. And then to the president. The worst they can say is no, and you haven't lost anything at all in that case.

I feel for you. I do. You need to do everything you can - the dean, president, anyone!

I dont know what an ombuds is.

Because I could get any lawyer's attention, I posted my situation on a education law forum and this is what one of the senior members replied:

" It would appear that it wasn't your initial grades doing the damage - you said that you failed your rotation, and this was after accommodations had been made.

The school wasn't obliged to offer you extra time (and perhaps in fact couldn't offer you extra time) if their standard is 6 years. You had a contract to complete in 6 years - if you did poorly even after accommodations were made, that isn't the school's problem.

I'm sorry, but some students just don't make it through school."

After giving him the full story, he said:

"I still don't see any legal recourse for you.

Sorry.

(Bear in mind that 90% of students did not fail the course you mentioned - that is actually quite impressive)"

So I guess its normal if 10% of the class fails each year???

This is the first legal advice that I got which totally killed my motivation to seek legal advice... what should I do???

 

[startingover11]

I would just start crying....make a scene...and/or get the local media involved. A lot of times they can sway an unfair case. How many ridiculous phone bills have you seen dropped once someone brings it to the media? No one wants bad publicity.

Actually, there is a free legal line by some news channel that I could call on Wednesdays. I thought about giving them a call but after hearing what the legal adviser said, I am not sure now.

 

[Carboxide]

...Wow. Am I the ONLY person here who is thinking, "Thank God this kid finally failed out!!"???

Look at his history! Failed a year TWICE and now a rotation? And dropped GPA below 2.0? But tries to say that it "wasn't for academic reasons" that he got kicked out, that it's not his fault he failed any classes, that basically he is blameless. He has a LEARNING DISABILITY!

End story: this kid is dangerous and I don't want him anywhere near my prescription. Sorry, dude, but we're all better off if you don't graduate.

 

[startingover11]

...Wow. Am I the ONLY person here who is thinking, "Thank God this kid finally failed out!!"???

Look at his history! Failed a year TWICE and now a rotation? And dropped GPA below 2.0? But tries to say that it "wasn't for academic reasons" that he got kicked out, that it's not his fault he failed any classes, that basically he is blameless. He has a LEARNING DISABILITY!

End story: this kid is dangerous and I don't want him anywhere near my prescription. Sorry, dude, but we're all better off if you don't graduate.

I failed the course once and I was able to move on the second time. It was two different courses that I failed. You have no idea what my life situation is and you can't make that sort of assumptions.

Actually, the patients I worked with were all impressed with my care skills and my knowledge. A lot of them come to the pharmacy requesting for me! I am one of the students who actually DO go above and beyond to help my patients.

 

[Cloud 9]

Actually, there is a free legal line by some news channel that I could call on Wednesdays. I thought about giving them a call but after hearing what the legal adviser said, I am not sure now.

Who cares what some random lawyer on the internet says. Give them a call, it can't hurt...worst case scenario is they'll say no...

Honestly I think it could be a sensational story, "Student with learning disability kicked out from pharmacy school with a few weeks left after they took from him $150,000 and gave no degree"

the average American would probably be sympathetic...certainly there was a story in Texas on a pharmacy school that was failing out a lot of students and that made local news.

Also have you tried contacting the preceptor and telling him/her what happened as a result of their noncommittal to give you a grade? Sometimes people don't realize the effects of their words, and I know you had a bad relationship with them, but maybe you can tell them what happened and they might decide to help?

 

[startingover11]

Who cares what some random lawyer on the internet says. Give them a call, it can't hurt...worst case scenario is they'll say no...

Honestly I think it could be a sensational story, "Student with learning disability kicked out from pharmacy school with a few weeks left after they took from him $150,000 and gave no degree"

the average American would probably be sympathetic...certainly there was a story in Texas on a pharmacy school that was failing out a lot of students and that made local news.

Also have you tried contacting the preceptor and telling him/her what happened as a result of their noncommittal to give you a grade? Sometimes people don't realize the effects of their words, and I know you had a bad relationship with them, but maybe you can tell them what happened and they might decide to help?

Yea.. I do have appointments set up to meet with one lawyer for free and I haven't decided on the other lawyers yet. I did call me preceptor and guess what, he is on vacation AGAIN! How could someone sign themselves up to be a preceptor when they are on vacation half of the time?

 

[Kansas Pharmer]

I failed the course once and I was able to move on the second time. It was two different courses that I failed. You have no idea what my life situation is and you can't make that sort of assumptions.

Actually, the patients I worked with were all impressed with my care skills and my knowledge. A lot of them come to the pharmacy requesting for me! I am one of the students who actually DO go above and beyond to help my patients.

Actually, I am going to have to agree with Carboxide. You admit failing 2 classes and also getting a no score on a rotation. In a curriculum that normally requires ~130 semester hours, 3 Fs should not bring a GPA below 2.0. As an example using the above totals: If you normally had Bs but failed 25% of your classes and did not even retake them, you would still have a ~2.15 GPA.

This tells me that you were a borderline student the entire time. Believe me, I DO feel sorry for what you have been through but to get IDEA accomodations (ADA does not apply to schools except for access, e.g. wheelchair ramps) and still get below a 2.0, there is a lot more to the story that is not being told...

 

[pharm B]

Who cares what some random lawyer on the internet says. Give them a call, it can't hurt...worst case scenario is they'll say no...

Honestly I think it could be a sensational story, "Student with learning disability kicked out from pharmacy school with a few weeks left after they took from him $150,000 and gave no degree"

I would tread carefully in this area. What you're suggesting is that the media would publish a story saying that someone was given a large number of chances to succeed, and failed, but the school decided he could still be a pharmacist.

the average American would probably be sympathetic...certainly there was a story in Texas on a pharmacy school that was failing out a lot of students and that made local news.

That article was regarding Texas Southern, and I haven't spoken to one person who expressed sympathy regarding the change in policy there. Students were complaining that you had to pass x number of courses a semester to stay in the semester. I forget the specifics, but it was essentially "we have to pass?! Waaaahhhh!" There's a thread on here about the article somewhere.

To the OP: You are in a bad position for this fight, but you know that, so keep fighting. Get the Dean and anyone involved that you need. In my program, if someone fails, they have the opportunity to roll back into the next cohort. If a student fails a rotation, I believe they are given the opportunity to make it up, but they also won't graduate with their class. You failed a rotation, and your school is hanging you out to dry. Do they have a strict "no make-up" policy? I'm genuinely surprised that your school is knowingly kicking you out in this fashion, and everyone seems to be onboard with it. Have you established any kind of rapport with your higher up admin types? A candid conversation with one of them is probably way more valuable than our advice.

I would not get any media involved, as this can most easily backfire on you and make all communications stop.

As always, none of this is legal advice, it's just free. And you get what you pay for. 😳

 

[startingover11]

Actually, I am going to have to agree with Carboxide. You admit failing 2 classes and also getting a no score on a rotation. In a curriculum that normally requires ~130 semester hours, 3 Fs should not bring a GPA below 2.0. As an example using the above totals: If you normally had Bs but failed 25% of your classes and did not even retake them, you would still have a ~2.15 GPA.

This tells me that you were a borderline student the entire time. Believe me, I DO feel sorry for what you have been through but to get IDEA accomodations (ADA does not apply to schools except for access, e.g. wheelchair ramps) and still get below a 2.0, there is a lot more to the story that is not being told...

Yes, I was always a borderline student throughout school but does that justify that I should be kicked out based on one biased evaluation from one preceptor when all other preceptors gave me positive reviews.

As I was saying, if I was getting accommodations for the 1st two years, I would not be in this situation. It is the first two years that dragged my GPA down. The two courses I failed were both pass/fail courses that added up to be 15 units. The first year class was 4 units and the 3rd year class was 9 units. The rotation is 6 units (total of 19 units) which brought my GPA to below 1.94. All the courses I failed were pass/fail courses and I received decent grades for the graded pharmaceutics courses. Also, less than half of our courses are not graded. In my case, graded courses did not hurt me but pass/fail courses did. From your comment, I calculated my GPA and if I did not take account of the p/f courses, I would end up with a 2.5 GPA.

 

[startingover11]

I would tread carefully in this area. What you're suggesting is that the media would publish a story saying that someone was given a large number of chances to succeed, and failed, but the school decided he could still be a pharmacist.


That article was regarding Texas Southern, and I haven't spoken to one person who expressed sympathy regarding the change in policy there. Students were complaining that you had to pass x number of courses a semester to stay in the semester. I forget the specifics, but it was essentially "we have to pass?! Waaaahhhh!" There's a thread on here about the article somewhere.

To the OP: You are in a bad position for this fight, but you know that, so keep fighting. Get the Dean and anyone involved that you need. In my program, if someone fails, they have the opportunity to roll back into the next cohort. If a student fails a rotation, I believe they are given the opportunity to make it up, but they also won't graduate with their class. You failed a rotation, and your school is hanging you out to dry. Do they have a strict "no make-up" policy? I'm genuinely surprised that your school is knowingly kicking you out in this fashion, and everyone seems to be onboard with it. Have you established any kind of rapport with your higher up admin types? A candid conversation with one of them is probably way more valuable than our advice.

I would not get any media involved, as this can most easily backfire on you and make all communications stop.

As always, none of this is legal advice, it's just free. And you get what you pay for. 😳
[/SIZE].

Yes, you are correct. I am in a very bad position. So I went through two committees. One was to evaluate the rotation and there was differences of opinion there. However, the decision was against me. Because of the F in a 6 unit rotation, my GPA fell below 2.0. Therefore, I would had to go to the academic appeals committee to appeal for a 6 week extension to pull up my grades and finish rotations. There were also differences of opinion here but it ultimately resulted against me again. The associate dean tried to help me out but he could not go against a committee of members.

 

[BrightLight]

Hmm..., what would Don Vito Corleone do in a case like this?

 

[Kansas Pharmer]

Yes, I was always a borderline student throughout school but does that justify that I should be kicked out based on one biased evaluation from one preceptor when all other preceptors gave me positive reviews.

As I was saying, if I was getting accommodations for the 1st two years, I would not be in this situation. It is the first two years that dragged my GPA down. The two courses I failed were both pass/fail courses that added up to be 15 units. The first year class was 4 units and the 3rd year class was 9 units. The rotation is 6 units which brought my GPA to below 1.94. All the courses I failed were pass/fail courses and I received decent grades for the graded pharmaceutics courses. Also, not all of our courses are graded. In my case, graded courses did not hurt me but pass/fail courses did.

This is exactly my point. I based my example on getting all Bs but Fs in 32 hours which is 50% more than you failed. Additionally, I did not add back in the failed courses like they had been retaken. If I add back in that those 32 hours were Cs the second time around, it would raise the GPA to 2.21. To extrapolate it out further, if you still failed the 32 hours, but got 50% Bs and 50% Cs on all other courses including retakes, that would still be a 2.01. So, you had to be getting a ton of Cs which is only one step above failing in graduate school (hence the 2.0 minimum).

But, I will have to also agree with Pharm B. If you believe you have been honestly wronged, keep fighting it. But do tread lightly.

 

[startingover11]

This is exactly my point. I based my example on getting all Bs but Fs in 32 hours which is 50% more than you failed. Additionally, I did not add back in the failed courses like they had been retaken. If I add back in that those 32 hours were Cs the second time around, it would raise the GPA to 2.21. To extrapolate it out further, if you still failed the 32 hours, but got 50% Bs and 50% Cs on all other courses including retakes, that would still be a 2.01. So, you had to be getting a ton of Cs which is only one step above failing in graduate school (hence the 2.0 minimum).

But, I will have to also agree with Pharm B. If you believe you have been honestly wronged, keep fighting it. But do tread lightly.

I had 88 graded units with ~2.3 GPA. When you factor in the 19 units of F, I get below 2.0. I am not sure how does my school calculate it exactly but my current GPA is 1.94.

 

[Kansas Pharmer]

I had 88 graded units with ~2.3 GPA. When you factor in the 19 units of F, I get below 2.0. I am not sure how does my school calculate it exactly but my current GPA is 1.94.

I am sure you already know that this will be the "con" against you. But, if you want advice on how to get around it, I can give a little.

Look up everything you can about the school. From the admission requirements, to the break schedule, to the grading system, etc., and I mean everything that you can get your hands on. Read it all and know every misspelling.

Be sure you are polite and professional when you are talking to any representative of the school. Admit your shortcomings first (the reason I was asking about your GPA). If you admit these first, it will take away some of their power to hold this over your head. Then, take every hole or inconsistency that is even remotely related to your situation (the reg review above) and beat them over the head with it.

This would probably be your best chance for another review or reinstatement. Good luck and I will quit making you feel bad about it now... 😀

 

[taken2]

...Wow. Am I the ONLY person here who is thinking, "Thank God this kid finally failed out!!"???

Look at his history! Failed a year TWICE and now a rotation? And dropped GPA below 2.0? But tries to say that it "wasn't for academic reasons" that he got kicked out, that it's not his fault he failed any classes, that basically he is blameless. He has a LEARNING DISABILITY!

End story: this kid is dangerous and I don't want him anywhere near my prescription. Sorry, dude, but we're all better off if you don't graduate.

You won't be thanking God if he is your brother.

 

[startingover11]

I am sure you already know that this will be the "con" against you. But, if you want advice on how to get around it, I can give a little.

Look up everything you can about the school. From the admission requirements, to the break schedule, to the grading system, etc., and I mean everything that you can get your hands on. Read it all and know every misspelling.

Be sure you are polite and professional when you are talking to any representative of the school. Admit your shortcomings first (the reason I was asking about your GPA). If you admit these first, it will take away some of their power to hold this over your head. Then, take every hole or inconsistency that is even remotely related to your situation (the reg review above) and beat them over the head with it.

This would probably be your best chance for another review or reinstatement. Good luck and I will quit making you feel bad about it now... 😀

Thanks for your help! That was my approach when I appeared in front of the academic appeals committee and apparently, that back fired on me. The Associate Dean said in my appeal letter, I identified all of my shortcomings which made me look really bad. I could have defended myself better. I should have listened to him....

I will go to the Dean next and even if he is willing to hear me out, I don't know if it is within the school's policy for him to reconsider my case. It is unfortunate for me that public schools stick strictly to their policies. I will have a lawyer look over the policy to see if there are any loop holes.

Right now, my only defense is that I COULD finish if they would let me continue. However, they aren't willing to bend their rules for me, even if it is only 6 weeks.

 

[startingover11]

You won't be thanking God if he is your brother.

Some of the committee members probably also felt this way about me. 🙁

 

[All4MyDaughter]

A couple of things. Failing twice during the didactic portion of pharmacy school is a big deal. And one of the failures was after you received accomodations for your learning disability. I am sure the committee members took that into account when they reviewed your case. And many educators are skeptical of learning disabilities that are only just diagnosed in professional school, particularly in someone who has excelled academically up to that point. Just stating a fact. The skepticism is there.

Now on to the rotation that you failed. How much did you miss? How many call ins? How late were you and how often? Those are BIG deals for me as a preceptor. I am much more likely to give a marginal student a break if he is motivated, professional and really tries hard. Someone who is marginal and gives the appearance of not caring (slacks off, doesn't show, is late) doesn't have much of a chance with me.

The places you might look for relief (in my opinion) are the "6 year policy" and any policy your school has about remediating rotations. I agree with whomever said you need to be going to talk to anyone and everyone at your school, from your advisor, your academic affairs people, your Dean of Students up to the Dean of the College. Exhaust your options before giving up.

 

[VCU07]

Look, this is undoubtly a complicated situation. In my mind, both you and the school share responsibility for the dismissal. I would still do everything in my power to reverse their decision, but at some point you will just have to move on.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Look, this is undoubtly a complicated situation. In my mind, both you and the school share responsibility for the dismissal. I would still do everything in my power to reverse their decision, but at some point you will just have to move on.

I think Kansas farmer and Carbondioxide have valid points. Your school is already quite relaxed on the failing grades, as mine would drop you back 1 year and put you on academic probation on the first F. A second F would flunk out the student. So your school isn't harsh or unreasonable at all.

OP might have a chance if he had a consistently earned 3.0 up to this point and suddenly had a run of bad grades. But a consistently poor grades and repeated Fs paints a picture that will almost certainly support upholding the school's decision.

I'm not trying to be mean, just trying to be objective. Every profession has certain standards and regulations, and your school is obligated to uphold these. Not everyone is meant to be a pharmacist. You might be better suited for another line of work. Could you reevaluate your abilities and reconsider?

 

[Carboxide]

Yes, I was always a borderline student throughout school but does that justify that I should be kicked out based on one biased evaluation from one preceptor when all other preceptors gave me positive reviews.

As I was saying, if I was getting accommodations for the 1st two years, I would not be in this situation. It is the first two years that dragged my GPA down. The two courses I failed were both pass/fail courses that added up to be 15 units. The first year class was 4 units and the 3rd year class was 9 units. The rotation is 6 units (total of 19 units) which brought my GPA to below 1.94. All the courses I failed were pass/fail courses and I received decent grades for the graded pharmaceutics courses. Also, less than half of our courses are not graded. In my case, graded courses did not hurt me but pass/fail courses did. From your comment, I calculated my GPA and if I did not take account of the p/f courses, I would end up with a 2.5 GPA.

This is what I'm saying! At the bolded: You ARE NOT BEING KICKED OUT FOR ONE "BIASED" REVIEW. You are being kicked out for failing a rotation and ALSO for failing two years of classes, and for getting low grades in the rest of your classes that you did not fail. That is why you are being kicked out. None of these things alone would have failed you. It is a combination of all your actions and inability to succeed that has resulted in your dismissal.

Taken2: What? Really? Actually, I wouldn't want my brother to kill someone, and I'd tell him it was his own goddamn fault for screwing up. Pharmacy isn't just fun and games. It can KILL SOMEONE if you don't know what you're doing. KILL SOMEONE.

 

[BenLysta]

This is a complex issue.

I personally think every school needs to have the instructor/preceptor speak with students who are on the borderline of failing after the midterm, just to warn the students. Failing should not be a shock or a surprise but to many, it is a life changing experience.

 

[Dalteparin]

I'm going to have to side with Carboxide here. As a preceptor, I don't give a D or an F (or an incomplete, which the OP's preceptor essentially did) unless the student really deserves it. OP, whether or not your preceptor was biased against you, you still failed 2 years of classes. At many pharmacy schools, that alone would have resulted in your dismissal. I'm not trying to pick on you or rub salt in the wound but... the school did their part by making their criteria very clear and even made accommodations for you so that you could meet them. They have to have some standards so that pharmacists are qualified.

 

[startingover11]

A couple of things. Failing twice during the didactic portion of pharmacy school is a big deal. And one of the failures was after you received accomodations for your learning disability. I am sure the committee members took that into account when they reviewed your case. And many educators are skeptical of learning disabilities that are only just diagnosed in professional school, particularly in someone who has excelled academically up to that point. Just stating a fact. The skepticism is there.

I understand about the skepticism and the disabilities coordinator had to fight really hard to implement the accommodations. In my case, I was getting disabilities accommodations prior to pharmacy school but I did not get it in the first two years.

Now on to the rotation that you failed. How much did you miss? How many call ins? How late were you and how often? Those are BIG deals for me as a preceptor. I am much more likely to give a marginal student a break if he is motivated, professional and really tries hard. Someone who is marginal and gives the appearance of not caring (slacks off, doesn't show, is late) doesn't have much of a chance with me.

I missed 3 days in the first 3 weeks. I was sent home on one day, called in on the other and the third day was due to problems with the law. I provided documentations on for each day. The problem with this site was that my preceptor was on vacation for half of the time so he could not have fully assessed me. Therefore, he did not recommend a grade. I did try very hard when it came to taking care of the patients. I even did follow up calls to some of my patients just to see how they were doing. However, the preceptor was not there to see that. I asked the preceptor to contact the patients I consulted and get an evaluation from their end. I asked the school to do so also but none of them did so.

The places you might look for relief (in my opinion) are the "6 year policy" and any policy your school has about remediating rotations. I agree with whomever said you need to be going to talk to anyone and everyone at your school, from your advisor, your academic affairs people, your Dean of Students up to the Dean of the College. Exhaust your options before giving up.

The thing is, it does not say in the student hand book that I could appeal the committee's decision. It says the decision made by the committee is final. If there is no policy stating that, may I still go to the dean or the president? I am afraid they will just refer me back to the committee.

 

[startingover11]

This is what I'm saying! At the bolded: You ARE NOT BEING KICKED OUT FOR ONE "BIASED" REVIEW. You are being kicked out for failing a rotation and ALSO for failing two years of classes, and for getting low grades in the rest of your classes that you did not fail. That is why you are being kicked out. None of these things alone would have failed you. It is a combination of all your actions and inability to succeed that has resulted in your dismissal.

Taken2: What? Really? Actually, I wouldn't want my brother to kill someone, and I'd tell him it was his own goddamn fault for screwing up. Pharmacy isn't just fun and games. It can KILL SOMEONE if you don't know what you're doing. KILL SOMEONE.

Everyone have difficulties when it comes to classes. Not everyone is a straight A student. Who says I could kill some one? The patients I have cared for all appreciated the care and the knowledge I taught them. Every preceptor I have worked with all said positive things about me except for this one preceptor who was not even there half of the time.

 

[R2pharmD2]

I missed 3 days in the first 3 weeks. I was sent home on one day, called in on the other and the third day was due to problems with the law. I provided documentations on for each day. The problem with this site was that my preceptor was on vacation for half of the time so he could not have fully assessed me. Therefore, he did not recommend a grade. I did try very hard when it came to taking care of the patients. I even did follow up calls to some of my patients just to see how they were doing. However, the preceptor was not there to see that. I asked the preceptor to contact the patients I consulted and get an evaluation from their end. I asked the school to do so also but none of them did so.

Why were you sent home, why did you call in, and what kind of trouble with the law are we talking here? I can think of scenarios for each example where your absence could be excused or unexcused.

 

[startingover11]

I'm going to have to side with Carboxide here. As a preceptor, I don't give a D or an F (or an incomplete, which the OP's preceptor essentially did) unless the student really deserves it. OP, whether or not your preceptor was biased against you, you still failed 2 years of classes. At many pharmacy schools, that alone would have resulted in your dismissal. I'm not trying to pick on you or rub salt in the wound but... the school did their part by making their criteria very clear and even made accommodations for you so that you could meet them. They have to have some standards so that pharmacists are qualified.

He assigned me an incomplete because he was there for the first couple of weeks and I was absent 3 times due to being sick and problems with the law which I provided documentations for. I failed some classes but I was able to complete them and make it all the way to rotations. Why not give me a chance to finish it when they know I can.

 

[startingover11]

Why were you sent home, why did you call in, and what kind of trouble with the law are we talking here? I can think of scenarios for each example where your absence could be excused or unexcused.

First one, I was sent home due to a pink eye. Second time I called in due to being sick. Both had doctor's notes. Third time I got pulled over for a traffic ticket and was taken to court due to prior traffic ticket that I forgot to appear in court for.

 

[R2pharmD2]

First one, I was sent home due to a pink eye. Second time I called in due to being sick. Both had doctor's notes. Third time I got pulled over for a traffic ticket and was taken to court due to prior traffic ticket that I forgot to appear in court for.

The first two sound excusable to me, but definitely not the third. Breaking the law and getting caught (repeatedly) is not going to be considered a valid excuse for missing a rotation.

 

[startingover11]

The first two sound excusable to me, but definitely not the third. Breaking the law and getting caught (repeatedly) is not going to be considered a valid excuse for missing a rotation.

Yes, I understand that and it may have made me appear to be irresponsible as well. And I do believe this influenced my preceptor's perception of me. Especially he was only there for the first half of the rotation when all the "bad" things took place and was no there for the 2nd half of the rotation.

 

[Kansas Pharmer]

The thing is, it does not say in the student hand book that I could appeal the committee's decision. It says the decision made by the committee is final. If there is no policy stating that, may I still go to the dean or the president? I am afraid they will just refer me back to the committee.

You are pretty much screwed if this is in print and a known condition of the school. You can always go to the president / dean but they will probably defer to the committee.

First one, I was sent home due to a pink eye. Second time I called in due to being sick. Both had doctor's notes. Third time I got pulled over for a traffic ticket and was taken to court due to prior traffic ticket that I forgot to appear in court for.

You went to work with one of the most communicable conditions there is? I would suspect that most preceptors would grade you on making good decisions and I dont believe that this was a good one.

You do know that when applying for any health care license you have to show that you warrant public trust? Forgetting about a traffic ticket until getting another one? Again, decision making. Just saying...

 

[startingover11]

You are pretty much screwed if this is in print and a known condition of the school. You can always go to the president / dean but they will probably defer to the committee.



You went to work with one of the most communicable conditions there is? I would suspect that most preceptors would grade you on making good decisions and I dont believe that this was a good one.

You do know that when applying for any health care license you have to show that you warrant public trust? Forgetting about a traffic ticket until getting another one? Again, decision making. Just saying...

Oh man... I guess I am done...

 

[Dalteparin]

Who says I could kill some one?

Let's see:

1. New medical resident asks if he can run sterile water* through a patients IV. You say yes. Patient develops hemolysis and dies.

2. Doctor wants to know if he can give vincristine intrathecally. You say yes. The vincristine destroys the patient's central nervous system. The patient dies.

3. MD starts a patient on warfarin when he's already taking simvastatin 80 mg daily. You don't tell the MD about the drug interaction so he doesn't monitor the patient closely. The patient's INR is supratherapeutic, he falls and hits his head, has an ICH and dies.

4. MD says, "This patient overdosed on Tylenol 12 hours ago. Do we still need to check a level?" You say no. The patient does not receive Acetadote, and as a result he dies from liver failure.

YES, AS A PHARMACIST YOU CAN KILL SOMEONE. If you haven't learned that by now, you do not deserve to wear that white coat.

*may sound farfetched but it actually happened to a pharmacist friend of
mine... luckily he gave the resident the correct info.

 

[startingover11]

Let's see:

1. New medical resident asks if he can run sterile water* through a patients IV. You say yes. Patient develops hemolysis and dies.

2. Doctor wants to know if he can give vincristine intrathecally. You say yes. The vincristine destroys the patient's central nervous system. The patient dies.

3. MD starts a patient on warfarin when he's already taking simvastatin 80 mg daily. You don't tell the MD about the drug interaction so he doesn't monitor the patient closely. The patient's INR is supratherapeutic, he falls and hits his head, has an ICH and dies.

4. MD says, "This patient overdosed on Tylenol 12 hours ago. Do we still need to check a level?" You say no. The patient does not receive Acetadote, and as a result he dies from liver failure.

YES, AS A PHARMACIST YOU CAN KILL SOMEONE. If you haven't learned that by now, you do not deserve to wear that white coat.

*may sound farfetched but it actually happened to a pharmacist friend of
mine... luckily he gave the resident the correct info.

How do you know those would be my answers? I understand that w/o sufficient knowledge, a pharmacist could kill someone but my point is, I DO have the knowledge.

 

[Dalteparin]

How do you know those would be my answers? I understand that w/o sufficient knowledge, a pharmacist could kill someone but my point is, I DO have the knowledge.

It's not that those specific things would happen to you. There are a million other ways a pharmacist's error can kill someone. Given that you failed 15 units and got low grades in the classes you didn't fail, I'm worried that you do have a lack of knowledge. Combine that with the fact that you've admitted to not-so-great judgement and we have a big problem.

 

[spacecowgirl]

Sounds like your preceptor didn't know what to do with your grade, hence not giving an outright F. So maybe he or she could appreciate your knowledge base but realized that you didn't have the responsibility or commitment to earn a passing grade. I would have had a really hard time passing you as well. In the grading rubrics we are given, failing marks in professionalism and personal responsibility would definitely bring your grade down to a possible fail, especially if you did not excel in other areas. We all have our own biases when grading students because rotations are not wholly objective, they are not tests you pass or fail. Like most of the rest of life.

I'm sorry to say that I think the school has made reasonable accommodations for you from what you described. I'm also really sorry you're dealing with this at this point in your schooling and I think schools do a HUGE disservice to students not to dismiss them earlier.

This is a good lesson for pre-pharm students and new pharm students. If you are in over your head, ask for help right away. A proactive approach will you get you further than asking for mercy later. If you need to take a leave of absence, do.

Most people will have few years in their lives without some major stressor that will test you - not just in school but during your working life too. You have to be able to balance that when you work in a job where mistakes kill. I would challenge most anyone here to a "who had it crappier in pharmacy school contest" (except All4MyDaughter, she sweeps that contest) and frankly, I've had a lot of bad times since I've been out working too. But you gotta deal with your personal life on personal time. Organizing your life and developing coping skills are important parts of becoming a responsible adult.

I always think about it in terms of the surgeon I would want. Would I want the one who graduated top of the class and aced residency or the one who barely squeaked by but for the grace of God? They might both know where my appendix is but I'll take the one with the As.

 

[Carboxide]

Everyone have difficulties when it comes to classes. Not everyone is a straight A student. Who says I could kill some one? The patients I have cared for all appreciated the care and the knowledge I taught them. Every preceptor I have worked with all said positive things about me except for this one preceptor who was not even there half of the time.

1. No, not everyone does. Lots of people do, though. However there is a huge difference between a 4.0 student and a 1.94 student. HUGE. Don't compare apples and oranges. We're comparing a student who failed three courses and has a cumulative GPA of 1.94 after the retakes WITH learning disability accommodations to the average student, which in my class is maybe a low B. In my opinion a C generally means "I don't really understand the material very well."

2. Caring for patients doesn't mean you're competent to treat them. It has literally nothing to do with knowledge. Lack of caring might be a good reason to fail a student on rotation, if they're really stone cold, but it's not enough to pass a student who otherwise isn't getting it.

 

[startingover11]

It's not that those specific things would happen to you. There are a million other ways a pharmacist's error can kill someone. Given that you failed 15 units and got low grades in the classes you didn't fail, I'm worried that you do have a lack of knowledge. Combine that with the fact that you've admitted to not-so-great judgement and we have a big problem.

Let me just reiterate. The classes I failed are pass/fail courses. The I did not FAIL any graded pharmaceutics courses.

 

[startingover11]

1. No, not everyone does. Lots of people do, though. However there is a huge difference between a 4.0 student and a 1.94 student. HUGE. Don't compare apples and oranges. We're comparing a student who failed three courses and has a cumulative GPA of 1.94 after the retakes WITH learning disability accommodations to the average student, which in my class is maybe a low B. In my opinion a C generally means "I don't really understand the material very well."

2. Caring for patients doesn't mean you're competent to treat them. It has literally nothing to do with knowledge. Lack of caring might be a good reason to fail a student on rotation, if they're really stone cold, but it's not enough to pass a student who otherwise isn't getting it.

Everyone who has worked with me knows I am capable! The doctors, the pharmacists and the associate dean. They have all told me that although I am struggling with school, I would be an excellent pharmacist. I also believe that I am fully capable and will provide excellent patient care. Grades doesn't mean everything.