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d3rider2k5

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As a fellow Canadian Citizen who is born and raised in Canada. The system to comeback into a residency is extremely difficult. The next little bit will outline the grotesque nature of the system and how convoluted and unfair it is towards IMGs despite their BS guidelines. Get some popcorn because this will be a good read.

I have graduated from a Caribbean Medical School. Passed the Canadian boards (MCCEE, NAC-OSCE, MCCQE1), passed my USMLE Step 1, 2CK, 2CS with average scores I believe, and have done rotations and observerships in Canada. (Not going to say where and I am keeping it general as this could be career suicide for me). On top of that, I also have good Canadian and American reference letters. I have applied for the last three years in your typical FM, IM, Psych programs hoping for a shot. I have also interviewed each year thus far (this year is pending). So why is the system unfair?

Here are my reasons and not just from firsthand experience but also from my other colleagues from around the country who have matched and are also part of the evaluating process of CaRMS Applications.

1) ALL CANADIAN SCHOOLS PREFER IRELAND OR UK GRADS...anyone else you are even lower on the list
2) Canadian grads have it way too easy and don't require passing boards in order to match (I know grads that have failed their MCCQE1 in fourth year but are still able to continue)
a) Most CMGs only have a transcript with a Pass or Fail
b) Most CMGs will have a letter obviously from their preceptors
c) Most CMGs will also have research under their belts because the medical school programs are designed that way
3) IMGs will never be seen as equal to their CMGs despite half of the country and more are filled with IMGs who trained them
4) They will hand out interviews in CaRMS based on the medical school list first (Ireland/UK/Australia, St. George, Ross, (followed by the other bigger names in the Caribbean) etc.)
5) Some provinces (BC & AB) have their own evaluating programs that you must go through before you can apply and if you succeed there then you'll get an interview
6) Even after you have worked with the PD there is no guarantee that you'll get in
7) Despite having doctors in the community vouch for you, you probably won't get in
8) Despite talking to the Schools after an unsuccessful math you'll be told "You're doing everything you possibly can, hope it is better next year" they are all terrible for feedback
9) Your Grades somewhat matter but not in the grand scheme
10) Despite you being a tax paying citizen, because the government didn't actually pay for your medical schooling, your MLA or MP also cannot do anything (Yes I have tried explaining this process to help others not just myself)

The Canadian system once you are in, you are laughing no doubt. Arguably, the system in the United States is much more fair as it primarily just relies on your board scores, personal connections to the area and whether or not you rotated there/know someone there. I have gone to conferences at various places to make connections for the US and hope a PD is willing to listen to me and my story. Funny thing, it has certainly worked to help land interviews.

Several Universities may appear to be IMG friendly...but look at the skewed results of where the residents are from and in what programs. I bet you any amount of money, that you will find a dominant amount of them from Ireland/UK/Australian Medical Schools with Ross and St. George's coming behind them.

Ontario I am lumping together as they have this weird way of conducting interviews where you can get offers from multiple schools but you interview in one place. As Ontario has the bulk of the IMGs it is very obvious that you must have high scores on your boards otherwise no dice even if you are from there. They will be a little more fair when choosing who to interview but once again, unless you are from those schools mentioned before your chances of being selected for an interview and or being matched are low.

University of Manitoba is notorious for only interviewing candidates from those schools only and the only other way for you to land an interview there outside of being from one of those schools is if you are from Manitoba.

University of Saskatchewan once again follows that same pattern. However, if you are from there you may get an interview only as a courtesy because again they prefer those perceived "superior" schools.

Alberta and BC are being lumped together as you must go through their provincial method of evaluation and based on that lumped result you get an interview and then match. Once again though, they too have a preferred school list.

Newfoundland (Memorial University) No longer accepts IMGs.

Dalhousie University only has FM as a residency. They too have a preferred school list. You must do a MMI type of interview in the first iteration. In the event there are spaces available in the second iteration (usually not), you must have been invited in the first iteration and had completed the MMI in order to be ranked.

Quebec is a funny one that neither myself or my colleagues know too much about. Would be nice if they opened more spots and allowed those of us who are NOT fluent in French to have a shot as there are ALWAYS open residency training positions.

Several universities do require you as an IMG to have a Return of Service Contract if you match in the First Iteration. However, if you got the money or just work for the first year or so (depending on your contract length) you can BUY IT OUT and then you are free to go anywhere. They have done this in hopes that you stay and put roots down. But let us be honest here for a minute, you have lived in Brampton/Toronto/Ottawa/Vancouver for majority of your life and you find out you matched in Brandon, MB or in Prince Albert, SK or Regina, SK or Winnipeg, MB for your residency as an example. You do your residency and if you got the money after completing your training or you choose to do a year or so to earn some money, you may break the remaining contract and move. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. It is aggravating for those communities who could've had an IMG who is from that area stay in that area had they been chosen...but obviously that would've made too much sense. When a member of the community asks their politician they'll say "the universities operate in a fair manner without discrimination based on...carms site address here..."

Long story short, is it doable to get into a Canadian residency? Debatable unless you have an advantage that the schools will tell you over and over is not an advantage but it is. Friends of mine in IM, FM, PSYCH programs even told me they have filters based on school of graduation first.

Can something be done? Good question because I have personally tried and failed several times to bring light to this growing issue. You would think that the Government of Canada and their Provincial Governments would stop funding residency training programs that are just not needed at the moment and increase Primary Care positions. Fact: 20% or more CANADIAN TRAINED doctors will not have a job when they come out of residency...forget about the number of CMGs that won't match. But of course that would be too easy. Don't worry the US has that problem too but at least when you apply to a program there you'll know if you can based on the fact you need a VISA or if they say they just don't accept IMGs.

As a Citizen, I feel cheated that the system in place could cater to more talented foreign trained individuals but due to biases and complete BS it does not. Instead we get to just say how there is this vast shortage of physicians in Canada even though there are more than enough of us who are doing other jobs to make ends meet that could put a HUGE DENT in the shortage....

To you reading this, I thank you and wish you the best of luck. As for me, lets see what the year holds. But personally I would have better luck trying the Powerball lottery in the US or investing in Marijuana Stocks or opening up my own Marijuana Shop than waiting for the dream job. Also most likely have more luck in the US, and not just me, but probably you as well. Feel free to comment or respond, I will be happy to try and offer more insight.

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The next little bit will outline the grotesque nature of the system and how convoluted and unfair it is towards IMGs despite their BS guidelines.
I read it all. Not sure where the unfair or grotesque parts were supposed to be.
 
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I read it all. Not sure where the unfair or grotesque parts were supposed to be.
Guess you must either be a CMG or an IMG that is from Ireland/UK. Do you know how many other IMGs there are that are far more trained that those graduates? Irish grads are lucky if they get to do real stuff with patients in when they are in Ireland. I had friends of mine who went and were jealous about the hand on experience I got...unfortunately despite that experience they've ended up matching before me because of how biased the Canadian System is towards grads from those schools.

How about all the debt we IMGs accumulate and the fact is that most are barely making ends meet? How about how Canada is losing bright minds to other countries because the opportunities are slim? How about how inconceivable it is that provinces aren't showing loyalty to their own who live and pay taxes there and rather pick someone else because of a school bias? As I said before, you must be a grad from Ireland and from Ontario...lucky for you the odds are in your favor not the other vast majority. (yes that is an assumption where I could be wrong)
 
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Guess you must either be a CMG or an IMG that is from Ireland/UK. Do you know how many other IMGs there are that are far more trained that those graduates? Irish grads are lucky if they get to do real stuff with patients in when they are in Ireland. I had friends of mine who went and were jealous about the hand on experience I got...unfortunately despite that experience they've ended up matching before me because of how biased the Canadian System is towards grads from those schools.

How about all the debt we IMGs accumulate and the fact is that most are barely making ends meet? How about how Canada is losing bright minds to other countries because the opportunities are slim? How about how inconceivable it is that provinces aren't showing loyalty to their own who live and pay taxes there and rather pick someone else because of a school bias? As I said before, you must be a grad from Ireland and from Ontario...lucky for you the odds are in your favor not the other vast majority. (yes that is an assumption where I could be wrong)
whoa...

erm, if you look up his profile, he's neither CMG or IMG. actually, he's an attending psychiatrist in New Jersey.

No need to unleash all the vitriol..all at once.

Thanks for sharing anyway, I'm sure it'll be useful to premeds contemplating their options in the future. It is reiterating long held stigmas in the US & Canada, but it doesn't always trickle down to the general public/premeds. I think there's some useful observations you've made, but you're going to have less of an audience if you let the bitterness through.

This post may also be more suitable in the Canadian or International Forums. [addit - suggesting this because, lol i can't tell who you're directing your post to or to what end. you're going to get mostly american responders in here]
 
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Guess you must either be a CMG or an IMG that is from Ireland/UK. Do you know how many other IMGs there are that are far more trained that those graduates? Irish grads are lucky if they get to do real stuff with patients in when they are in Ireland. I had friends of mine who went and were jealous about the hand on experience I got...unfortunately despite that experience they've ended up matching before me because of how biased the Canadian System is towards grads from those schools.

How about all the debt we IMGs accumulate and the fact is that most are barely making ends meet? How about how Canada is losing bright minds to other countries because the opportunities are slim? How about how inconceivable it is that provinces aren't showing loyalty to their own who live and pay taxes there and rather pick someone else because of a school bias? As I said before, you must be a grad from Ireland and from Ontario...lucky for you the odds are in your favor not the other vast majority. (yes that is an assumption where I could be wrong)
You’re in a rough spot and I’m sorry but you are making poor arguments

Your debt is irrelevant to the process. You paying taxes is also irrelevant (you aren’t an employed doc yet amd don’t make much. No one changed the rules since you went carrib....you knew, or should have, this is how it works

Moving forward.....what step scores? one of the big 3 schools? How many us interviews:in what;did you rank them? Have you applied to us prelim years?

Grad year?
 
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Guess you must either be a CMG or an IMG that is from Ireland/UK. Do you know how many other IMGs there are that are far more trained that those graduates? Irish grads are lucky if they get to do real stuff with patients in when they are in Ireland. I had friends of mine who went and were jealous about the hand on experience I got...unfortunately despite that experience they've ended up matching before me because of how biased the Canadian System is towards grads from those schools.

How about all the debt we IMGs accumulate and the fact is that most are barely making ends meet? How about how Canada is losing bright minds to other countries because the opportunities are slim? How about how inconceivable it is that provinces aren't showing loyalty to their own who live and pay taxes there and rather pick someone else because of a school bias? As I said before, you must be a grad from Ireland and from Ontario...lucky for you the odds are in your favor not the other vast majority. (yes that is an assumption where I could be wrong)
i agree with hamstergang and I'm an sgu grad (though wasn't looking to go to canada) and doesn't sound any different that what an US -IMG goes though to get a US residency spot...information that i was (and made myself) aware of prior to applying to and going to SGU.

If UK/Irish school were preferable to Caribbean schools, then why didn't you go to one of then? There are a number of them that take foreign students and as a Canadian citizen, you should have been able to get into one of them, since i would imagine a Commonwealth citizen would have an advantage over an applicant that is not one.

Seems like you didn't due your due diligence before going to med school in the Caribbean (plus, frankly there had to something else you are not telling us, since caribbean grads DO match through CarRMs).
 
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I am a Canadian medical student and have a great deal of sympathy for both sides of the argument.

As for the structural issues of coming back to Canada, that's how the system works. It's largely a one shot /one gamble deal with programs. They take you or they don't. They largely don't like repeat applications and if an IMG keeps reapplying then that's seen as a red flag - even though it shouldn't be. Canada is a small country and its system is made to take its own students with a small sprinkle of IMGs.

It does suck that the system lacks any transparency and accountability. Program directors are not held accountable for their decisions. For smaller programs it's even worse, program directors all know each other and can easily dismiss candidates. It's all a subjective system. Sadly, they rely on networking/subjective assessments/nepotism. I feel for you going through this.

Yes, you are right that the Canadian system is on the verge of some sort of collapse. Too many medical students and too few residency spots is going to break at some point.


1) ALL CANADIAN SCHOOLS PREFER IRELAND OR UK GRADS...anyone else you are even lower on the list
2) Canadian grads have it way too easy and don't require passing boards in order to match (I know grads that have failed their MCCQE1 in fourth year but are still able to continue)
a) Most CMGs only have a transcript with a Pass or Fail
b) Most CMGs will have a letter obviously from their preceptors
c) Most CMGs will also have research under their belts because the medical school programs are designed that way

I will point out a few points. Canadian schools do prefer Irish and UK grads because it is a known entity and Canada is a British colony after all. They also like Australian grads more. Unfortunately, the caribbean is a bit more discriminated.


Most transcripts DO NOT HAVE pass fail only. It depends on the school. some have qualitative evaluations. It is not like the American ranked system
Yes, CMGs do get letters from preceptors. The system is designed to do rotations in CANADA. This is a huge added benefit here.

Some Canadian schools ask for basic research projects such as proposals. MOST DO NOT REQUIRE a PROJECT.

I feel for you as an IMG going to the caribbean. It sucks and your passion is being wasted. However, medicine is a presitgious profession and some element of tribalism is to be expected
 
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