Thoughts For Pros/Cons of Military Route

[Prilozack]

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I am considering doing the military route for my medical education. I have not been accepted anywhere yet. Still waiting to here back from places.

I have a 3.7 cGPA and a 3.58 sGPA. My MCAT is a 498.

What do you think about chances and also about the pros/cons of doing this? I only applied MD this cycle by the way.

 

[medic86]

I am considering doing the military route for my medical education. I have not been accepted anywhere yet. Still waiting to here back from places.

I have a 3.7 cGPA and a 3.58 sGPA. My MCAT is a 498.

What do you think about chances and also about the pros/cons of doing this? I only applied MD this cycle by the way.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/2015-2016-allopathic-school-specific-discussions.974/

Honestly, you're going to have to retake that MCAT if you want to go to an allopathic medical school.

 

[Prilozack]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/2015-2016-allopathic-school-specific-discussions.974/

Honestly, you're going to have to retake that MCAT if you want to go to an allopathic medical school.

I am retaking it, but I couldn't do anything this cycle due to how late I took it. I am also considering DO schools. What's your advice on that?

 

[medic86]

You'll have a much better chance with DO schools next cycle. I'd say you still have a chance for MD if you significantly improve your MCAT score.

As for the military route: only take it if you really want to serve (above all else). Check out the milmed subforum for other thoughts/opinions.

 

[Lucca]

I'm also considering military option right now.
I think the pros would be free education, residency
and cons would be deployment, adjustment to military lifestyle.

the military subforum has a giant thread on pros and cons and you touched on some but there are many many more on both sides.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Go on the military subforum.

 

[redferrari]

Pros: Serving the country

Cons: Trump could very likely become Commander-in-chief

 

[Gastrapathy]

Lots of ways to pay for things. The military route is not free. Spend some time reading the stickes, the 40 and counting reasons not to join thread, the brigade surgeon threads and whatever else catches your eye.

 

[bc65]

For almost everyone, doing a military scholarship will cost you more in lost salary than you gain in scholarship.

 

[TBV]

I agree check the forums. I met with the recruiter and brought my father with me (ex-army, ex-special forces) who was a much higher rank and he helped me cut through all the bull**** they feed you. I determined it wasn't a good deal for me but if you have interest in military medicine w/o the scholarship then do it.

 

[Lucca]

For almost everyone, doing a military scholarship will cost you more in lost salary than you gain in scholarship.

Would this also be true for people that do USUHS? They pay you like an O-1 when you attend and you graduate as an O-3 and tuition is 0. Of course, you pay with 7 years of military service but I dont know what the pay grade is like compared to civilian medicine on the other end since I'm not military or too familiar. Not that someone should go to USUHS just for the money vs. HPSP or something.

 

[maxwell_edison]

Also consider the USPHS. It's uniformed service, complete with free education. It's a different medicine than either civilian or military, but could be of interest.

 

[cardio7]

I'm also considering military option right now.
I think the pros would be free education, residency
and cons would be deployment, adjustment to military lifestyle.

If you consider deployment to be a con, military medicine is not your best choice. Consider PHS or NHSC as alternatives, but definitely visit the MilMed forum for more info on all of these.

 

[order66.exe]

I've spent a lot of time researching and this is basically it in a nut shell. Personally, I've always wanted to serve but my desire doesn't outweigh the costs of going this route.

Pros:
No debt
Mil residencies for competitive specialties are potentially easier to get into
Service + you get to treat soldiers/airmen/sailors/marines which is a great plus
Military benefits can make a big difference in QOL, especially if you have a family in tow

Cons:
GMO Tours and Residency Delay; Difficult to access civilian residencies
Military Bureaucracy is killer: You fundamentally belong to Uncle Sam, so your freedom of choice is curtailed.
Skill Atrophy as a GMO and if you're a surgical sub-specialist
Debt free doesn't matter considering how much money you'd be making as an attending

 

[bc65]

Would this also be true for people that do USUHS? They pay you like an O-1 when you attend and you graduate as an O-3 and tuition is 0.

You need to do the math.

Here's the short version of the calculations (very rough. Someone with more familiarity, please correct my numbers): The scholarship will save you at most about $70,000 a year, x 4. After interest for 10 years, you would owe $560,000. After a few years in the military you will earn as much as 160k, plus benefits. You'll need to figure out the value of the benefits, but keep in mind there are also benefits with many civilian jobs.

How much will you earn in civilian life? You're not likely to earn less than 250k. You have a good chance of earning 300k-400k or more. So, by the time you would have finished your military obligation, unless you're in a particularly low-paying primary care position, you will be ahead financially by just taking out the loans.

You should get more precise numbers for the military salary, factor in years of residency, residency salaries, and the estimated salary for your anticipated specialty, which is another wild guess at this point.

In general, almost always, taking out loans is a much better deal. Not to mention all the other burdens that military life will impose on you.

Being in the military might interfere with your ability to go into your preferred specialty.

Then you need to factor in the deployments, risks, and miseries associated with being in the military, along with the benefits of serving and the military experience. I have no direct experience with the military, but I have read the threads on the military forum. Based on that reading, it's also my understanding that unless you're a trauma surgeon in a combat zone, you will see fewer patients and lose skills, rather than be busy and gain them.

 

[bc65]

If you consider deployment to be a con, military medicine is not your best choice. Consider PHS or NHSC as alternatives,

That's a good point, but of course, the financial negatives will still apply in PHS or NHSC.

 

[Oh_Gee]

I agree check the forums. I met with the recruiter and brought my father with me (ex-army, ex-special forces) who was a much higher rank and he helped me cut through all the bull**** they feed you. I determined it wasn't a good deal for me but if you have interest in military medicine w/o the scholarship then do it.

did he rip the recruiter a new one or just politely shake his head after everything the recruiter said

 

[TBV]

did he rip the recruiter a new one or just politely shake his head after everything the recruiter said

He shook his head for a while and then after getting a couple "dont worry about it" type answers he just said oh ok I only ask because I've been through this myself, casually dropped his (much higher) rank real quick. It was hilarious to see the recruiter jump up and start throwing a bunch of "sirs" after that. Have to say I was very appreciative because it wasn't until that point in the meeting that I got real information.

 

[Sahgee]

I am considering doing the military route for my medical education. I have not been accepted anywhere yet. Still waiting to here back from places.

I have a 3.7 cGPA and a 3.58 sGPA. My MCAT is a 498.

What do you think about chances and also about the pros/cons of doing this? I only applied MD this cycle by the way.

I don't know much about the "military route" but i noticed some people outright saying that you mist take the mcat again. I got a 496 & have 2 MD acceptances.. & with your gpa i think you are still a great applicant. (This is of course without me knowing your extracurricular activities & so on though. .) Don't be discouraged!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Sorry but you are an extreme exception ^^^. OP you need to retake the MCAT before worrying about the military. Even for DO schools a 498 puts you in extremely rough water

 

[Sahgee]

Sorry but you are an extreme exception ^^^. OP you need to retake the MCAT before worrying about the military. Even for DO schools a 498 puts you in extremely rough water

Eh, I will take being an exceptional exception: )
My only point is that it certainly isn't impossible. A LOT more goes into the admissions process other than metrics & stats alone. It depends wholeheartedly on the applicant, as they are more than just a number~

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

With a score that low it takes some serious connections or something pretty amazing to get considered. Exceptional exception is right

 

[Sahgee]

With a score that low it takes some serious connections or something pretty amazing to get considered. Exceptional exception is right

Nope. No connections. No clinic or something that I built in Africa. And "considered"? You mean *accepted. I'm just that amazing. & I'm more than positive that I'm getting my third acceptance within the next two weeks.

I will repeat myself since you must have missed it: ALOT more goes into the admissions process other than metrics & stats alone. It depends wholeheartedly on the applicant, as they are more than just a number~

 

[whatever5]

Do you want to be in the military? Go the military route.

Are you doing it to avoid loans? Don't go the military route.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Nope. No connections. No clinic or something that I built in Africa. And "considered"? You mean *accepted. I'm just that amazing. & I'm more than positive that I'm getting my third acceptance within the next two weeks.

I will repeat myself since you must have missed it: ALOT more goes into the admissions process other than metrics & stats alone. It depends wholeheartedly on the applicant, as they are more than just a number~

I didn't miss it. Every statistic will show that you are an extreme outlier. There is something on your app that you aren't telling us.

 

[Dr. Retractor]

I don't know much about the "military route" but i noticed some people outright saying that you mist take the mcat again. I got a 496 & have 2 MD acceptances.. & with your gpa i think you are still a great applicant. (This is of course without me knowing your extracurricular activities & so on though. .) Don't be discouraged!

What MD schools tho? Forgive me for assuming Caribbean but if you got into US MD schools with that MCAT you got lucky, are a non-trad, or have a 4.0 from Princeton or MIT and lots of super unique ECs. Nonetheless, congrats on the acceptances.

 

[Sahgee]

I didn't miss it. Every statistic will show that you are an extreme outlier. There is something on your app that you aren't telling us.

"There's something in not telling you"? Lol dude if it boggles your mind than that's your issue. Nothing is out of the ordinary about me. I got a 496 had a 3.6 cumulative ugpa lots of research experience & extracurricular activities.

...And i got into 2 MD schools. . You mad? Lol.

My post was to give the guy hope because people were saying he must, must take it over. Which isn't necessarily true.

 

[Sahgee]

What MD schools tho? Forgive me for assuming Caribbean but if you got into US MD schools with that MCAT you got lucky, are a non-trad, or have a 4.0 from Princeton or MIT and lots of super unique ECs. Nonetheless, congrats on the acceptances.

Thank you for the congrats? & nope no Caribbean schools. Grade A American schools, thank You very much. No 4.0 gpa from some crazy school. I guess i do have lots of EC. Only thing "non traditional" about me is that i graduated in may 2015 & basically took a year off. Soooooooo... yeah.

 

[ChrisMack390]

I researched this a bit. It really boils down to a simple question: are you interested in being in the military, independent of medicine?

If you are someone who both wants to join and military and wants to be a doctor, this is a great option. If you are someone who wants to be a doctor and is worried about the debt, it is a terrible option.

 

[Sahgee]

& again you're too busy focusing on statistics & nothing else. That's probably what's giving you all these problems lol. @AnatomyGrey12

 

[Jos.A.Bank]

I haven't read through this whole thread but I'm just wondering if there is a minimum MCAT for HPSP. I scored a 494 on the MCAT and was accepted into one of the top five most expensive MD schools in the country. After the interview, the dean of admissions emailed me to say that I could expect no more than $5,000 in merit aid if accepted, but maybe more in need-based. Would I have any chance with HPSP or should I plan to just pursue the traditional loan route? Thanks for any thoughts you may have.

Congrats to all accepted. And to those with <500 MCAT, there is always hope.

 

[Slack3r]

I've spent a lot of time researching and this is basically it in a nut shell. Personally, I've always wanted to serve but my desire doesn't outweigh the costs of going this route.

Pros:
No debt
Mil residencies for competitive specialties are potentially easier to get into
Service + you get to treat soldiers/airmen/sailors/marines which is a great plus
Military benefits can make a big difference in QOL, especially if you have a family in tow

Cons:
GMO Tours and Residency Delay; Difficult to access civilian residencies
Military Bureaucracy is killer: You fundamentally belong to Uncle Sam, so your freedom of choice is curtailed.
Skill Atrophy as a GMO and if you're a surgical sub-specialist
Debt free doesn't matter considering how much money you'd be making as an attending

Careful about thinking you can "backdoor" your way into a competitive field via the military. There are often very few positions in the military in competitive fields, and the training at military hospitals can be subpar compared to civilian programs.

Also, the military can decline to grant you a "civilian deferment" (meaning you are not allowed to apply to civilian residencies and must enter the military match), potentially forcing you into a field you don't want to enter.

Only go milmed if you want to be in the military.

 

[medic86]

"There's something in not telling you"? Lol dude if it boggles your mind than that's your issue. Nothing is out of the ordinary about me. I got a 496 had a 3.6 cumulative ugpa lots of research experience & extracurricular activities.

...And i got into 2 MD schools. . You mad? Lol.

My post was to give the guy hope because people were saying he must, must take it over. Which isn't necessarily true.

Stop giving bad advice based on your anecdote.

 

[Germanicus89]

Irrespective of your individual success Sahgee, it looks like OP is probably going to strike out this cycle, which is to be expected given his low MCAT. If he is able to pull a higher score then I can't see you making a real argument against a retake. The "let's just have faith it will work out" attitude might not be advisable in this case since it is clearly not working out.

Here's the text from one of the million military recruiting emails I get regarding Army HPSP:

"The minimum requirements to apply (if criteria for automatic acceptance is
not met) are listed below:

*All four-year and three-year applicants must achieve a total score on
their most recent MCAT of 500 or higher with individual scores of
124 or
higher in each separate category. The older version MCAT test
scores of
26 or higher with individual scores of 8 or higher in verbal
reasoning,
physical sciences, and biological sciences can still be used as well

All four-year and first semester three-year applicants must use the grade
point average (GPA) from their undergraduate degree, with a minimum
GPA
of 3.2 or higher based upon a 4.0 maximum grading scale.


As of recently the US Army has initiated Automatic Acceptance for the Health
Professions Scholarship program based on the following criteria:

*Applicants must have a minimum Medical College Admission Test (MCAT)
score of 507 with no less than 124 in each category or for the old
version a minimum of 29 overall with no less than 8 in each category
using the most recent test scores.

Applicants for 4-year scholarships must have an undergraduate
cumulative grade point average (GPA) of 3.60 or higher based on a 4.0
maximum grading scale or an individual class standing in at least the top
20% of their class if a GPA grading scale is not used. GPA/standing must
be from the degree producing school only."


Doesn't look like he's getting an auto acceptance and it looks like he's below the minimum standard. I don't know if they make exceptions. If he retook and got over a 507 (with no less than 124 per section) he would both increase his chances for an MD acceptance and ensure acceptance to HPSP given his good GPA.

 

[Sahgee]

I haven't read through this whole thread but I'm just wondering if there is a minimum MCAT for HPSP. I scored a 494 on the MCAT and was accepted into one of the top five most expensive MD schools in the country. After the interview, the dean of admissions emailed me to say that I could expect no more than $5,000 in merit aid if accepted, but maybe more in need-based. Would I have any chance with HPSP or should I plan to just pursue the traditional loan route? Thanks for any thoughts you may have.

Congrats to all accepted. And to those with <500 MCAT, there is always hope.

One thing about the HPSP (which is the airforce/military scholarship, right?) Is that you need at least a 123 in each section of the mcat. This was told to me by the recruiter. If you qualify, and as with anything, you must weigh out the costs and benefits. I was considering it but the thought of being on active duty for about 4 years did intimidate me, not gonna lie. But if that doesn't bother you & if you sincerely don't mind the service repayment then go for it! 🙂

 

[Sahgee]

Irrespective of your individual success Sahgee, it looks like OP is probably going to strike out this cycle, which is to be expected given his low MCAT. If he is able to pull a higher score then I can't see you making a real argument against a retake. The "let's just have faith it will work out" attitude might not be advisable in this case since it is clearly not working out.

Here's the text from one of the million military recruiting emails I get regarding Army HPSP:

"The minimum requirements to apply (if criteria for automatic acceptance is
not met) are listed below:

*All four-year and three-year applicants must achieve a total score on
their most recent MCAT of 500 or higher with individual scores of
124 or
higher in each separate category. The older version MCAT test
scores of
26 or higher with individual scores of 8 or higher in verbal
reasoning,
physical sciences, and biological sciences can still be used as well

All four-year and first semester three-year applicants must use the grade
point average (GPA) from their undergraduate degree, with a minimum
GPA
of 3.2 or higher based upon a 4.0 maximum grading scale.


As of recently the US Army has initiated Automatic Acceptance for the Health
Professions Scholarship program based on the following criteria:

*Applicants must have a minimum Medical College Admission Test (MCAT)
score of 507 with no less than 124 in each category or for the old
version a minimum of 29 overall with no less than 8 in each category
using the most recent test scores.

Applicants for 4-year scholarships must have an undergraduate
cumulative grade point average (GPA) of 3.60 or higher based on a 4.0
maximum grading scale or an individual class standing in at least the top
20% of their class if a GPA grading scale is not used. GPA/standing must
be from the degree producing school only."

The point that people are clearly missing is not that i am telling this person not to retake it. If they've tried & tried but it hasn't worked out then by all means take it again. & if they improve then all the more power to them. I have both seen & known people who had 510+ with near perfect gpas that STILL didn't get in anywhere. What's your advice to them then? You need to consider the other parts of your application that may need work as not every last thing hinges on yout stats *drops the mic*

You guys can argue all day about the liklihood of people getting accepted based on scores alone but at the end of the day that is not the only thing considered whether you like it or not lol.

 

[Sahgee]

Stop giving bad advice based on your anecdote.

Um? Who's giving bad advice? That i suggest that the person works on their application as a whole so that they're more competitive? Bad advice.. where?

 

[Jos.A.Bank]

One thing about the HPSP (which is the airforce/military scholarship, right?) Is that you need at least a 123 in each section of the mcat. This was told to me by the recruiter. If you qualify, and as with anything, you must weigh out the costs and benefits. I was considering it but the thought of being on active duty for about 4 years did intimidate me, not gonna lie. But if that doesn't bother you & if you sincerely don't mind the service repayment then go for it! 🙂

Thanks for letting me know the section minimums! I know a couple of med students who didn't have to take the MCAT because of an early acceptance program and are doing the HPSP (military scholarship). I'll reach out to them to see how they qualified.

Thanks again.

 

[Sahgee]

Thanks for letting me know the section minimums! I know a couple of med students who didn't have to take the MCAT because of an early acceptance program and are doing the HPSP (military scholarship). I'll reach out to them to see how they qualified.

Thanks again.

No problem. The best of luck to you & your endeavors, Dr. 🙂

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Um? Who's giving bad advice? That i suggest that the person works on their application as a whole so that they're more competitive? Bad advice.. where?

Honestly you are. Yes it is very important to have ECs. But to get your foot in the door you need stats or something very impressive in the EC section. I still stand by that there is something in your app you aren't telling us, or you live in an extremely friendly state and got lucky, or you live in the PR. No one is saying it is all about stats. But at the end of the day anyone who says stats aren't important is kidding themselves. You have had some great success and congratulations for that. But you are an outlier and telling someone they can be an outlier too isn't realistic advice.

PS. I'm not belittling your success, seriously kudos for you for doing it.

 

[Germanicus89]

The point that people are clearly missing is not that i am telling this person not to retake it. If they've tried & tried but it hasn't worked out then by all means take it again. & if they improve then all the more power to them. I have both seen & known people who had 510+ with near perfect gpas that STILL didn't get in anywhere. What's your advice to them then? You need to consider the other parts of your application that may need work as not every last thing hinges on yout stats *drops the mic*

You guys can argue all day about the liklihood of people getting accepted based on scores alone but at the end of the day that is not the only thing considered whether you like it or not lol.

I think people were unimpressed because you seemed to be saying OPs stats are fine and he just needs to work on his ECs. I don't think anyone is saying ECs aren't important. His gpa is good but his stats are not those of a "great applicant" as you asserted.

In reality we don't know what OPs ECs are. Maybe they're stellar and he still can't get an acceptance. Maybe they're not and he needs to work on them like you say, though its unlikely that he's going to improve his ECs significantly in the next 3 to 4 months (publish a paper, finish a peace corps term of service etc.) In either case, to get the best chances for MD for the next cycle one of the best things he could do in that time frame is to retake and get a better score. Applying DO is also a good idea. This is not a controversial issue.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Anyway back to OPs question. My cousin's husband did the HPSP and he is currently a flight surgeon. I know that he actually loves it. Some people really want to serve their country and those are the ones that tend to enjoy it according to him. He also told me though that it isn't for everyone and usually the people who just do it for the money are usually pretty miserable. That seems to also be resonated here on this site

 

[Sahgee]

Honestly you are. Yes it is very important to have ECs. But to get your foot in the door you need stats or something very impressive in the EC section. I still stand by that there is something in your app you aren't telling us, or you live in an extremely friendly state and got lucky, or you live in the PR. No one is saying it is all about stats. But at the end of the day anyone who says stats aren't important is kidding themselves. You have had some great success and congratulations for that. But you are an outlier and telling someone they can be an outlier too isn't realistic advice.

PS. I'm not belittling your success, seriously kudos for you for doing it.

It came off very belittling. & my state school hasn't gotten back to applicants yet & no I'm not from the PR. Idk what you're expecting me to say or divulge in regards to the "there's something you're not telling us".

& i may not be that much of an outlier, not everyone is honest about their stats so also keep that in mind. I never told him not to retake it just said there are other factors that may need improvement & that focusing soley on the mcat maybe a disservice if we don't know anything else that this person may have going on. What does it matter if you have a perfect score but nothing else? Or if you can't produce quality personal statements? Or if you can't interview. Type score is only one component of your application. If that's all you got going for you, you might want to consider doing something else. Your score isn't everything, for the nth time.

 

[Sahgee]

I think people were unimpressed because you seemed to be saying OPs stats are fine and he just needs to work on his ECs. I don't think anyone is saying ECs aren't important. His gpa is good but his stats are not those of a "great applicant" as you asserted.

In reality we don't know what OPs ECs are. Maybe they're stellar and he still can't get an acceptance. Maybe they're not and he needs to work on them like you say, though its unlikely that he's going to improve his ECs significantly in the next 3 to 4 months (publish a paper, finish a peace corps term of service etc.) In either case, to get the best chances for MD for the next cycle one of the best things he could do in that time frame is to retake and get a better score. Applying DO is also a good idea. This is not a controversial issue.

Unimpressed? Lol who was trying to impress you or anyone else for that matter? All i or this person has to do is impress the admissions committee, which i clearly did despite (as you call it) "unimpressive" scores. At the end of the day i am still an amazing applicant that already got accepted to 2 even more amazing medical schools, so I'm good lol. If all everyone is going to chime in on is the person's mcat score without having an idea of other aspects of their application then you're doing him or her a disservice (see previous comment). Speaking from my experience as I will be a doctor despite your opinions on my score, i provided advice that got me in & that's that. If military will help him then hoorah. But if other or any aspects of his application are lacking then he should improve it. Plain & simple, whether or not it is their mcat.

 

[medic86]

It came off very belittling. & my state school hasn't gotten back to applicants yet & no I'm not from the PR. Idk what you're expecting me to say or divulge in regards to the "there's something you're not telling us".

& i may not be that much of an outlier, not everyone is honest about their stats so also keep that in mind. I never told him not to retake it just said there are other factors that may need improvement & that focusing soley on the mcat maybe a disservice if we don't know anything else that this person may have going on. What does it matter if you have a perfect score but nothing else? Or if you can't produce quality personal statements? Or if you can't interview. Type score is only one component of your application. If that's all you got going for you, you might want to consider doing something else. Your score isn't everything, for the nth time.

Your MCAT score is between 2 and 3 standard deviations below the mean for matriculants.

You are an outlier.

 

[JustAPhD]

& i may not be that much of an outlier

MSAR would say otherwise.

 

[Sahgee]

Your MCAT score is between 2 and 3 standard deviations below the mean for matriculants.

You are an outlier.

Oh well then, still going to be a doctor. 🙂 & this is the first cycle considering the new scores so make sure that you're using current data for your calculations with the new scale & not just basing it on hearsay~

 

[Sahgee]

MSAR would say otherwise.

Welp *shrugs*

 

[JustAPhD]

Welp *shrugs*

We're not taking anything away from you, but the statistics don't lie. Not retaking a 496/498 would be a death sentence for the vast majority of applicants. That's why people are disagreeing with your advice to OP.

 

[Sahgee]

We're not taking anything away from you, but the statistics don't lie. Not retaking a 496/498 would be a death sentence for the vast majority of applicants. That's why people are disagreeing with your advice to OP.

I understand that, & i understand that everyone is different. As I have said & will continue to say: there maybe other aspects of his application that can be improved other than his scores alone. Whether it be research shadowing military or what have you, there could be other things that can be done in addition to the score to make him more competitive. But to say outright that he cannot get in anywhere because of his scores alone is an outright lie.