URGENT HELP !!

[Porcelain Gallbladder]

I am an final year international medical student, willing to pursue IM residency.
My quick question is which one is better:
1. Total 2700$ for 8 weeks - to work with a cardiologist and a gastroenterologist at a private clinic 4 weeks each- total 8 weeks.
2. 5250$ for 8 weeks to work at FIU, Miami.

I am getting hands on at both clinic and FIU, so is it worth spending extra 2500$ on FIU. As far as I know both are considered USCE. Note again I am still a student and not a graduate.
Please help guys. I would really appreciate your help.
Thanks.

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[rokshana]

I am an final year international medical student, willing to pursue IM residency.
My quick question is which one is better:
1. Total 2700$ for 8 weeks - to work with a cardiologist and a gastroenterologist at a private clinic 4 weeks each- total 8 weeks.
2. 5250$ for 8 weeks to work at FIU, Miami.

I am getting hands on at both clinic and FIU, so is it worth spending extra 2500$ on FIU. As far as I know both are considered USCE. Note again I am still a student and not a graduate.
Please help guys. I would really appreciate your help.
Thanks.

who would you be working with at FIU? in a residency program with other medical students? in a structured program for med students? That would be worth it.

 

[Porcelain Gallbladder]

who would you be working with at FIU? in a residency program with other medical students? in a structured program for med students? That would be worth it.

Yes I would be working just as a US med student working in their clinical rotation. So here's my question again is spending 2500$ worth it? Really speaking I am ready to match in low-tier programs in IM. All I need is LOR and USCE of 3 months (I already have one month of USCE at community hospital), I just wanna cross filter of 3 USCE and few US LOR thats it. Is it worth spending 2500$ extra just for FIU? Please help someone.

 

[rokshana]

Yes I would be working just as a US med student working in their clinical rotation. So here's my question again is spending 2500$ worth it? Really speaking I am ready to match in low-tier programs in IM. All I need is LOR and USCE of 3 months (I already have one month of USCE at community hospital), I just wanna cross filter of 3 USCE and few US LOR thats it. Is it worth spending 2500$ extra just for FIU? Please help someone.

what part of my answer did you not understand?
you are an FMG "willing"?? to pursue an IM residency and "just" want an low-tier program...smh

go over to the IMG interview thread and see how easy that is...not.

if you are an FMG and especially if you are visa requiring, you need to do everything to make yourself as competitive an applicant.

and you are naive (or haven't done your research) if you think all LoRs are the same and programs are looking for you to just check things off the list...you think a LoR form some random PP doc is going to carry the same weight as the PD or chair of an IM program? Even a new program like FIU is going to be better than a private doctor.

and if you were actually thinking about your education, hanging out at some private outpt clinic is not going to give the same education as rotating with medical residents on a teaching service.

and did it cross your mind that rotating at an actual IM residency program gives you the opportunity to prove yourself on what is basically an 8 week interview to get a leg up a chance to get said residency spot.

as an FMG, esp visa requiring, 2500/- is going to be drop in the bucket..better get use to it...its an expensive endeavor and probably at least a 5-10K endeavor...

 

[deleted480308]

Go to the aoa opportunities webpage (google it). Find the im programs with just initial or preaccreditation. Then find which of those are in crappy locations. These programs will be the easiest to get a shot at, contact them and ask to rotate.

You want to be working with people who help pick residents

 

[Porcelain Gallbladder]

Go to the aoa opportunities webpage (google it). Find the im programs with just initial or preaccreditation. Then find which of those are in crappy locations. These programs will be the easiest to get a shot at, contact them and ask to rotate.

You want to be working with people who help pick residents

I dont think International students have much options and liberty to rotate, there are really a handful and countable locations to get hands on electives. Whats your opinion still- private clinic who knows me for 4 weeks or FIU with uni letterhead in addition to 2500 bucks extra?
Honestly, I just wanna cross the filter of 3 USCE to be atleast eligible for most programs.

 

[deleted480308]

I dont think International students have much options and liberty to rotate, there are really a handful and countable locations to get hands on electives. Whats your opinion still- private clinic who knows me for 4 weeks or FIU with uni letterhead in addition to 2500 bucks extra?
Honestly, I just wanna cross the filter of 3 USCE to be atleast eligible for most programs.

Whichever has a closer attachment to a residency

 

[rokshana]

I dont think International students have much options and liberty to rotate, there are really a handful and countable locations to get hands on electives. Whats your opinion still- private clinic who knows me for 4 weeks or FIU with uni letterhead in addition to 2500 bucks extra?
Honestly, I just wanna cross the filter of 3 USCE to be atleast eligible for most programs.

if that's all you want then fine, take the cheaper option...funny, i would have though the goal was to match and obtain a residency spot but oh well.

plus, remember you get what you pay for...i'm done.

 

[Nephro critical care]

I dont think International students have much options and liberty to rotate, there are really a handful and countable locations to get hands on electives. Whats your opinion still- private clinic who knows me for 4 weeks or FIU with uni letterhead in addition to 2500 bucks extra?
Honestly, I just wanna cross the filter of 3 USCE to be atleast eligible for most programs.

Do a little bit of homework and save your $2500 instead of giving it to a PP clinic doc. You should not be paying $2500 to get a US LOR. There are plenty of PP doctors who are not greedy f’’’’’’ bastards and trying to earn money off a poor IMG sucker. You can join them in clinic and on their hospital rounds for exactly $0. I recently arranged for a rotation for an IMG at my hospital for nothing. In fact they got to stay at my hospital’s apartment for $0 as well.

 

[Chalo1986]

Also if I may say so, an attitude change before you start your rotation may be in order. You won't just get a letter for showing up. On my final year as a fellow in a university program we had IMGs rotating with us during inpatient rounds. After sometime I found what separated the good ones from the not so great ones. It wasn't their medical knowledge, social skills or even their English proficiency. The ones who did poorly invariably always asked, on day one, from whom and when they were getting their LoRs. I'm an IMG and I remember how hard I had to proove myself before even suggesting my plans to ask for a letter. PDs are not looking for the next Dr House, they want hard working physicians that are willing to listen and learn. The sense of entitlement in some of the students I worked with.. the worst one I'll never forget, showed up on day one with a printed CV where the first page was a summary of her parents accomplishments as doctors in her home country. My advise is show up early, smile, listen, help whenever you can, leave when the fellow/resident leaves and be proactive. Hit up the what's new section of uptodate and find an interesting article and prepare a 5 minute review with a short handout and whenever there's some downtime ask if you can briefly present it to the team. Do those things and you'll find the fellow/resident will more often then not vouch for you to the attending. OP, you may already be doing this things but I thought I'd share my 0.02$.

 

[Porcelain Gallbladder]

Also if I may say so, an attitude change before you start your rotation may be in order. You won't just get a letter for showing up. On my final year as a fellow in a university program we had IMGs rotating with us during inpatient rounds. After sometime I found what separated the good ones from the not so great ones. It wasn't their medical knowledge, social skills or even their English proficiency. The ones who did poorly invariably always asked, on day one, from whom and when they were getting their LoRs. I'm an IMG and I remember how hard I had to proove myself before even suggesting my plans to ask for a letter. PDs are not looking for the next Dr House, they want hard working physicians that are willing to listen and learn. The sense of entitlement in some of the students I worked with.. the worst one I'll never forget, showed up on day one with a printed CV where the first page was a summary of her parents accomplishments as doctors in her home country. My advise is show up early, smile, listen, help whenever you can, leave when the fellow/resident leaves and be proactive. Hit up the what's new section of uptodate and find an interesting article and prepare a 5 minute review with a short handout and whenever there's some downtime ask if you can briefly present it to the team. Do those things and you'll find the fellow/resident will more often then not vouch for you to the attending. OP, you may already be doing this things but I thought I'd share my 0.02$.

Thats really great. Thanks for the insight. Really appreciate it sir.

 

[Crayola227]

what people are forgetting is that there is a difference between an observership (which yes, could be gotten free, since besides HIPAA concerns, since you do nothing, are not a great malpractice issue) and getting actual hands on experience.

It's easy to forget that one reason medical student tuition is so high has to do with paying malpractice insurance to cover students. I know of a school that had an incident where the medical student was implicated in the case, and an enormous settlement was awarded from the school (the students don't get sued directly in these cases with students, the school does), and therefore the tuition skyrocketed, making it some of the most expensive in *and* out of state tuition in the country.

Basically, schools aren't keen to have you do hands-on anything if you're not covered under malpractice insurance. When I did my VSAS away rotation, my school had to provide proof to the other site that I was going to still be covered under my home institution's insurance. No one will let you do anything anywhere as a med student without it, besides observe. (Volunteers prior to med school is a different thing altogether.)

If you *really* want the sort of clinical experience that will net you an LOR for residency, of worth from a physician, and give you hands-on US experience, and actually matter to a PD, then it needs to be hands-on. Under supervision you need to be able to take a history, perform a physical exam, and write notes. The first two you typically cannot get with an observership, the latter you can get as practice potentially, but usually not in the EHR even.

What people are forgetting, is that these paid programs offer what an observership does not, and that's because you pay.

I cannot tell you which program to get. I can tell you that I think you should do a program that is more than an observership and will provide more hands-on education, if possible.

 

[rokshana]

what people are forgetting is that there is a difference between an observership (which yes, could be gotten free, since besides HIPAA concerns, since you do nothing, are not a great malpractice issue) and getting actual hands on experience.

it's easy to forget that one reason medical student tuition is so high has to do with paying malpractice to cover students. I know of a school that had an incident where the medical student was implicated in the case, and an enormous settlement was made against the school (the students don't get sued directly in these cases with students, the school does), and therefore the tuition skyrocketed, making it one of the most expensive in *and* out of state tuition in the country.

If you *really* want the sort of clinical experience that will net you an LOR of worth from a physician, and give you hands-on US experience, and actually matter to a PD, then it needs to be hands-on. Under supervision you need to be able to take a history, perform a physical exam, and write notes. The first two you typically cannot get with an observership, the latter you can get as practice.

What people are forgetting, is that these paid programs offer what an observership does not, and that's because you pay.

I cannot tell you which program to get. I can tell you that I think you should do a program that is more than an observership and will provide more hands-on education, if possible.

um, the OP already said that he is still a student and that these are clerkships with hands on experience.

 

[Nephro critical care]

There are a few programs that will give you externship without cost. St Louis Mercy IM comes to mind. Work on your board scores. Need 250 + , 260 + would be even better.

 

[Porcelain Gallbladder]

what people are forgetting is that there is a difference between an observership (which yes, could be gotten free, since besides HIPAA concerns, since you do nothing, are not a great malpractice issue) and getting actual hands on experience.

It's easy to forget that one reason medical student tuition is so high has to do with paying malpractice insurance to cover students. I know of a school that had an incident where the medical student was implicated in the case, and an enormous settlement was awarded from the school (the students don't get sued directly in these cases with students, the school does), and therefore the tuition skyrocketed, making it some of the most expensive in *and* out of state tuition in the country.

Basically, schools aren't keen to have you do hands-on anything if you're not covered under malpractice insurance. When I did my VSAS away rotation, my school had to provide proof to the other site that I was going to still be covered under my home institution's insurance. No one will let you do anything anywhere as a med student without it, besides observe. (Volunteers prior to med school is a different thing altogether.)

If you *really* want the sort of clinical experience that will net you an LOR for residency, of worth from a physician, and give you hands-on US experience, and actually matter to a PD, then it needs to be hands-on. Under supervision you need to be able to take a history, perform a physical exam, and write notes. The first two you typically cannot get with an observership, the latter you can get as practice potentially, but usually not in the EHR even.

What people are forgetting, is that these paid programs offer what an observership does not, and that's because you pay.

I cannot tell you which program to get. I can tell you that I think you should do a program that is more than an observership and will provide more hands-on education, if possible.

Thank you very much. I got exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for your explanation.